[13:31] morning [13:41] howdy === udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-2 to: Track: Community | Quality Community Growth | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21672/community-1303-quality-growth/ [13:51] anyone who wants to be in the hangout right away do let me know :-) [13:51] We've got room [13:53] i do [13:56] balloons, I can join [13:57] excellent [13:57] setting it up now [13:57] awesome, thanks [14:00] anyone else wish to hop in? [14:00] me [14:01] I cannot see who's in [14:01] balloons: call me if you need me, I sit on the back for now [14:01] Hi [14:01] hello smartboyhw [14:02] Anybody here? [14:02] yup [14:02] * greatcthuhlu wakes from watery grave [14:02] mornin === greatcthuhlu is now known as rickspencer3-uds [14:03] morning everyone [14:03] o/ [14:03] good morning all [14:03] The hangout seems not be started yet? [14:03] txwikinger-uds: you need to reload [14:03] it's sytarted [14:04] Maybe it would be a good thing for the track lead to let us know when the video starts, so we don't have to keep refreshing? [14:04] it has definitely started [14:04] annoying to have to login all the time again [14:04] I am not sure there's a track lead on it, nick is broadcasting [14:04] uh [14:04] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=e275reHE62M [14:04] Can't see tue [14:04] the videp [14:04] anyway [14:06] upstream - Debian [14:06] interesting point jasnow [14:08] I tried to triage the Rails bugs during Global Jam last weekend but had hard time to learn specific processes/terms [14:08] aren't loco communities contributing already? [14:08] QUESTION: ^ [14:08] It's not that easy for LoCo's where English isn't the native language, I think. You need to contact the right people that can spread it inside the loco [14:10] what happens when tests fail? they still need to raise bugs [14:10] It is a misunderstading to think hat testing by amateurs is veryeffective [14:10] txwikinger-uds: agreed [14:10] balloons: can you share the link to the hangout? [14:10] please add name in lower third [14:11] and nick [14:13] 95% of te LUG memberss here are male [14:13] Agreed gema_ [14:14] Same as their are skils for development ... their are skills for testing [14:14] their->there [14:15] QUESTION: I think it's important to identify a range of roles, and clearly identify which skills each role requires. THis is something the KDE project used to do very well. I don't currently know if this is documented abywhere? [14:15] * thomi looks for the old KDE documentaton [14:17] hmm, it seems to have gone downhill, but something like this: http://techbase.kde.org/Contribute [14:17] interesting thom [14:17] *thomim [14:18] gema_: I think tests need to be written in coordination with upstream projects, where possible. Otherwise, it's too easy to write a test that doesn't actually test what you want [14:19] I have stopped filing automatic bugs since most of the time they are duplicates [14:20] Never got acconplishmebts working on my machine... given I gave up quite a time ago [14:21] manual vs. automated tester? [14:21] balloons: maybe 'role' is the wrong word... makes it sound too much like a job.... [14:21] thomi: profile? [14:22] gema_: ++ [14:22] yep [14:23] txwikinger-uds: it is still useful to file the automated bugs as it updates the database for 'how hot' a bug is. [14:23] balloons: I was thinking more along the lines of: if I'm new to Ubuntu, and I want to help the quality team, where do I go to see what I can do? [14:23] how do you get the name at the bottom of screen ? [14:24] anyone who wishes to join in the hangout.. speak up :-0 [14:24] phillw: Sorry... having to work for living, I do not have the time for things that 95% of the time are not used [14:24] I though it was updated as part of the daisy database? [14:24] janof, use lower third.. in the hangout toolbox [14:24] anyone know numbers these days? [14:26] You have to define community... if you say "everybody that uses Ubuntu" --- only a small percentage will be willing to contribute [14:27] txwikinger, what do you mean? [14:28] thomi, this is a start on: https://qa.ubuntu.com/getting-involved/ [14:28] philipballew: I suspect that for many/most people, it's a percieved problem, rather than an actual one? [14:28] am I late? [14:28] jeje [14:28] morning! [14:28] I know more people I was able to convince to use Ubuntu than people that were willing to go the next step and contribute [14:29] I think one of the critical things about attracting new users is making sure that 'new' contributors understand that running the development version is important [14:29] those 'bugs' are the ones that are going to be more likely to be fixed [14:29] If the bar is lowered your potential contributor base increases dramatically. [14:29] cprofitt, ++ [14:30] I have to run to a meeting soon, but will you be discusing what the change from checkbox to plainbox is going to have on testing? [14:30] cprofitt, now I'll point people to your session [14:30] thanks balloons [14:31] will plainbox answer Gema's concern about checkbox? [14:32] cprofitt: what is plainbox? [14:32] gema_: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21607/client-1303-new-checkbox-core-plainbox/ [14:32] balloons: the translations team could help with translating it to other language, so that we could get testing from non-english speakers [14:32] there's no point translating checkbox tests if you don't think they're any good. [14:33] not really sure what plainbox is... [14:33] thomi: true, but it could be improved [14:33] cjohnston: yup, but every time you change the english text you need to re-translate, so make them good *first*, then translate them to different languages... [14:33] correct [14:33] there are also issues, I think, with checkbox failing tests even though the computers is ok [14:34] I would prefer that tests be resumable as well [14:34] there is a Ubuntu Friendly one later today [14:34] thanks balloons [14:34] the easiest tests I have done are the ISO tests [14:35] Partner with http://weekendtesting.com/ [14:35] Who is the random guy on the hangout without a name? just curious [14:36] could there be a 'list of tests' that people could download [14:36] On the other hand, everyone who uses checkbox is free to file bugs requesting improvements to the tests... [14:36] based on them knowing what their hardware is? [14:37] cjohnston, Nathan [14:37] ubuntu accomplishments require the server to be able to verify the test was run [14:37] +1 for philipballew [14:37] balloons: ty [14:37] jasnow, ohh.. interesting [14:37] have you used it? [14:38] balloons: 55 [14:38] until 14:55 [14:38] philipballew: but that's still better than them not contributing at all, right? [14:38] philipballew: having them do one test and not liking it is better than them never having known that was an opportunity [14:39] philipballew: 1 test is better than none [14:39] it is a good idea to expose people to the process [14:39] heh :) [14:39] Is "Quality" defined as only "testing"? [14:39] IRC is united! [14:39] jasnow, not necessarily [14:39] You will only get an inflation of rewards.. otherwise it does not work [14:40] or produce better code in the first place [14:41] TDD [14:41] education? practice? [14:41] adding tests to existing projects is hard [14:41] but it's doable if you somehow show them the benefit [14:42] the leap from "ok, made a change, now let's click around the project to see how it works" to "made a change, ran a script, stuff auto-tested, ftw" is huge [14:42] I think the biggest gap is in existing projects, as new ones are more likely to be designed with testability in mind [14:43] just writing some tests does not do it ... the also need to be maintained hence tests need to be integrated in the development process in the first place [14:43] Example from another community: http://secretmustache.com/2013/03/mozillians-a-big-thank-you.html [14:43] txwikinger-uds: agreed, that's why it needs to be an integral sales pitch, not just "add tests to your code *now* and you're done" [14:43] gema_: speaking as an "upstream" developer, I welcome any & all well written tests. *especially* if it finds a regression in my code :) [14:44] thomi: that sounds good :D [14:44] thomi: but you are a QA oriented upstream :) [14:44] gema_: yeah... true. [14:44] Do you have a CI server to run your automated tests? [14:44] rolling releases will only work with Agile practices and TDD [14:44] gema_: I still think most developers in OSS welcome contributions [14:45] thomi: +1 [14:46] balloons: yes, exactly. We need to not waste this opportunity. [14:48] would a good idea be to approach upstreams with things such as "you know, you got five bad reviews in USC because your app crash when you do foo" [14:48] or launchpad bugs with a lot of people affected [14:49] etc [14:49] diwic: I don't think so. Contributing tests to fix it is positive, just saying it is negative I think. [14:49] commandoline_, well, you need to say it in the right way of course [14:50] diwic: if done carefully, it can be helpful, yes :) [14:50] commandoline_, I'm just elaborating on the is quality == testing topic, and one indication of quality in broader terms is what people complain about in launchpad and USC [14:51] commandoline_, you can also approach upstream and relay a thanks from the users as given on USC reviews [14:52] diwic: ok, I agree that passing the info on is useful for the upstreams. Just reacted in the first place because it sounded a bit harsh then. [14:52] commandoline_, to balance the negative [14:52] you can put it as TODO [14:53] commandoline_, certainly. [14:55] yes [14:55] o/ [14:55] bye [14:55] bye === udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-2 to: Track: | Fostering UbuntuKylin Community | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21690/desktop-r-ubuntukylin-community/ [14:56] hi [14:57] hi dragonfly [14:58] who else wants to be part of this hangout? [14:58] hi... h [14:58] dholbach: I want try, but not sure if it works here [14:59] so what is going on [14:59] i had issu with connexion.. wanted to ask about checkbox (cf pad) [15:02] ypwong: hi [15:02] * slangasek waves [15:02] dholbach: I am here on irc only. All kylin patches for ubiquity have been merged. We still didn't work out how to provide/presseed default timezone / skip that step. That's it from my side. [15:03] not sure about other packages. [15:03] if there is / isn't something outstanding. [15:03] xnox, Ok - I'll add it to the notes as an agenda item [15:04] no youtube live? [15:04] adam8157: there is; refresh the page? [15:05] sure! [15:05] oh, I see ypwong :) [15:06] ypwong: audio still seems very choppy; could you turn down the bandwidth setting on your side? [15:06] Is there bandwidth problem? [15:07] google hangout is blocked in China, and vpn is not very stable, sigh [15:09] ypwong, maybe you can check the hangout settings to use something like "low bandwidth settings"? [15:10] dholbach: well, as ypwong has just fallen off IRC, perhaps you can repeat this suggestion to him on the hangout :) [15:12] dholbach: it's the slider that looks like a cell phone signal strength indicator [15:12] slangasek, ah great [15:13] ypwong, how can we help? :) [15:14] ok [15:14] dholbach: He said you dropped. [15:14] it's slow [15:14] ypwong: if you turn down your bandwidth setting in the hangout client, it should be better for you [15:14] so you said you have a design and a website - what are the next steps - how can we help? [15:14] slangasek, how to do that? [15:14] ypwong: the "cell phone signal strength indicator" looking thing [15:14] ypwong: upper right [15:15] see the button on http://vsee.com/blog/google-hangouts-low-bandwith-video-chat/ [15:16] as slangasek said like a cellphone signal indicator [15:17] ypwong, what the help need? [15:18] anyone else who can explain what needs to be done in terms of the website? [15:18] or the forums? [15:18] dholbach, I am asking ypwong [15:18] I'm happy to put you in touch with the LoCo Community who help set up website/forums/mailing lists and all kinds of things [15:18] dholbach: I guess partly they wanna share the experience about build the community, and also wanna get some feedback/comments [15:18] many other teams have their infrastructure set up through them [15:19] freeflyi1g, I don't know - would it help if the two of us would try to go through the agenda? [15:19] the hangout problems make this discussion a bit hard [15:19] dholbach, jonaszhang is typing [15:19] but I'd like to help out and adresse a few of them [15:19] hi [15:19] dholbach: maybe we can switch to irc [15:20] so can you give us some advice about the layout of the forum? [15:20] i think the sections of the forum of UbuntuKylin should reflect concerns of Chinese users. [15:21] dholbach: I can try [15:21] freeflyi1g, cool [15:23] yes, maybe the community should both reflect the concerns of Chinese users and the Ubuntu style. [15:25] JackYu, yes - maybe we have other chinese forums, or even ubuntu related chinese forums we could look at? [15:26] yes, I agree. [15:26] great [15:27] maybe, firstly we need to setup seperate section in other chinese forum for ubuntukylin? [15:28] because culture difference and language issue, it is a little difficult for Chinese beginner to start to contribute, so we want translate some manuals and guide about Ubuntu and Launchpad [15:31] http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/ [15:31] https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-packaging-guide/ [15:32] dholbach, and we have videos in others languages as well [15:32] if ubuntukylin is for computer beginners, I wonder if it's worth of having a investigation to see what's the barriers, e.g. online banking, integration of online e-shopping payment plugins etc etc [15:36] yes, we have discuss the possibility of online banking, in spite of technique it need government certification. [15:36] yes, an investigation is required. [15:39] Will the coming release schedule point be kept,such as the beta1release in 14th March ? [15:41] no matter ubuntu release change to rolling or not, ubuntukylin will release its 13.04 [15:41] so, there's nothing in the proposed rolling release change that would prevent having a beta release [15:43] ok , thank you [15:43] thanks dholbach [15:43] ok,thanks slangasek [15:43] :) [15:44] and please give me your email addresses :) [15:44] 谢谢，大家：） === udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/community-2/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-community-2.log [15:45] raywang, KylinJonas, JackYu, ypwong: do you want to be part of the discussions as well? can you give me your email addresses in a private message too? [15:46] dholbach, no, that's fine :) [15:46] raywang, ok :) [15:47] dholbach, jonaszhang@ubuntukylin.com [15:47] thanks KylinJonas === udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-2 to: Track: | Using ibus or fcitx as default in UbuntuKylin | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21688/desktop-r-ubuntukylin-inputmethod-ibus-or-fcitx/ [15:53] who wants to be part of this discussion? happy to give you the link [15:54] Jack Yu [15:54] maclin [15:55] we still have 5 minutes :) === hikiko_ is now known as hikiko [15:56] freeflyi1g, can you or somebody else lead this discussion? I'm not going to be of any help here [15:56] I have no ideas about input methods :-( [15:57] dholbach: sure, don't worry :) [15:57] GunnarHj, do you want to be invited to the hangout too? [15:57] dholbach: Not needed, I think. Can just as well contribute here. [15:58] just wanted to make sure we have everybody in the hangout who wants to participate [15:58] we still have lots of open slots :) [15:58] the network is not so good [15:58] maybe it helps to turn off the video [15:58] I had to do it before when the network was bad - it sometimes helped [15:59] yes, i turn off [16:00] does the session video work for everyone? GunnarHj maybe? [16:01] Works fine for me. [16:01] perfect [16:01] thanks [16:01] or as slangasek said earlier "谢谢" :) [16:02] ypwong, the sound still works bad [16:02] ypwong, we can hear lots of voice from your side [16:03] can anyone else maybe start the session? [16:03] I'm happy to read out the notes on the pad [16:03] ypwong, JackYu, KylinJonas, maybe mute yourself and unmute to speak? [16:03] but I'm not sure how much help that's going to be :) [16:03] sure [16:03] jzheng, yes we're already doing that [16:07] The choice between ibus and fcitx is probably not so important in 13.04. In 13.04 we will use im-config as an IM configuration tool, and the user can select among installed IM frameworks from Language Support. [16:07] Going forward may be more complicated due to the GNOME integration of xkb and IM. [16:07] there is a delay or something [16:08] GunnarHj, I think we are not going with GNOME anymore :) [16:08] jzheng: What?? [16:08] GunnarHj, Mir and Unity Next [16:08] jzheng: Ok... [16:08] GunnarHj, :) [16:10] in the future ubuntu will use mir as display server, but user must wait until 14.04 at least [16:12] language-selector contains an IM framework selector. As long as fcitx is installed, that option will appear and can be selected. [16:14] do we have a good contact to the upstream developers of fcitx? [16:15] dholbach: yes, and also well maintained in Debian/Ubuntu [16:15] it's just a general question - something we generally consider when making a package default [16:15] perfect [16:15] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fcitx also looks like there's really few bugs [16:15] not sure if that says much, just thought I'd point it out [16:16] We should be aware of that ibus has been shipped for many cycles by default - fcitx has not. [16:16] dholbach: noted [16:16] GunnarHj: good point [16:18] yes, as we described at the blueprint, Kubuntu team is also doing the evaluation on ibus vs. fcitx [16:18] any more questions? concerns? ideas? [16:18] is this something which should be generally considered for Ubuntu? have their been requests to replace the default in Ubuntu? [16:18] but no conclusion could be found. [16:19] how about Japanese/Korean? [16:19] dholbach: yes, when we apply the flavor, some TB members ask the same question. [16:20] How about shipping both ibus and fxitx? (One can be the default, of course.) [16:20] http://paste.ubuntu.com/5590776/ [16:20] paulliu: UbuntuKylin mainly consider [16:20] Chinese input [16:21] paulliu: through m17n, a lot of language can be supported, and also IME like anthy has been ported to fcitx also [16:21] JackYu: Yeah.. I cound understand. But the question is why Kubuntu team is consindering fcitx replacing ibus? [16:21] yes. I am also wondering... [16:21] freeflyi1g: no anthy.. [16:21] As far as I know, im-config is capable of handling it without conflicts. [16:22] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-kubuntu-development [16:22] maybe fcitx provide good support for KDE [16:23] GunnarHj: that's great [16:23] paulliu: https://code.google.com/p/fcitx/ FYI, a lot of ime has been ported [16:23] it also provide some KDE configuration interface [16:23] we're going with ibus for raring [16:23] in Kubuntu ⇈ [16:23] JackYu: ok.. I heard. [16:23] but we did look at fcitx for the reasons mentioned [16:24] Riddell: so you decision is ibus? [16:25] JackYu: yes, a chap called Quintasan investiagted and decided on that [16:25] it's what the rest of ubuntu uses [16:25] and works with Korean and Japaese [16:25] and since he got ibus working fine with KDE Plasma no reason to change [16:25] theming support is also another advantage over ibus [16:26] Riddell: even with native kcm-comfig tool support? :D [16:26] [00:10] Generally ibus has poor integration [16:26] [00:11] Fcitx has better KDE integration but the version Debian has is not feature complete yet [16:27] Riddell, do we know which feature is missing or if there's a bug open about it? [16:27] Riddell: this is not true kde-config-fcitx - KDE configuration module for Fcitx [16:27] freeflyi1g: which is not true? [16:27] 00:26 < Riddell> [00:11] Fcitx has better KDE integration but the version Debian has is not feature complete ye [16:27] oh debian not feature complete yet [16:27] The standard Ubuntu distro will also go for ibus in 13.04, AFAIK. [16:27] freeflyi1g: I don't think there is any ibus config in KDE [16:28] so fcitx wins there [16:28] but as long as installing the language pack sets it up then you're good [16:28] Riddell: did you investigate the newest version of fctix? [16:28] Riddell: defintely, and ibus still has a lot of python code, performance lose there too [16:28] fcitx has updated to latest version now in 13.04 sources [16:29] JackYu: I don't know what version he looked at, was about a month ago [16:29] Riddell: its very worth to give it a try in kubuntu too [16:30] freeflyi1g: what about the poor Koreans and Japanese? [16:30] Riddell: got it. so maybe we could discuss further with Quintasan. [16:31] JackYu: he's around lots in #kubuntu-devel (just not today alas) [16:31] would it make sense to switch to fcitx in ubuntu kylin for now and then see what the feedback is like when you ask for people to test it some time before the release? [16:31] and make the kubuntu discussion a separate thing? [16:31] I'm not an IM user, but I can't help thinking that shipping both and make them easily available to the Chinese users ought to be a good idea. [16:31] dholbach, +1 [16:32] GunnarHj: that's not very ubuntu [16:32] Riddell: thanks. Would you please give his email address via private channel? [16:32] Riddell: upstream has them in place [16:32] Riddell: Let's make it ubuntu, then. ;-) [16:33] just for your reference, fcitx has anthy which is for Japanese, see https://github.com/fcitx/fcitx-anthy [16:33] dholbach, we have tested fcitx 4.2.6 and it worked well for users [16:33] Riddell, then probably to ship fcitx and if user wants they can always install with apt-get [16:33] Riddell: btw, not trying to convince you to adopt it, just wanna let it you know the status [16:33] I think that shipping both is the best solution to this topic. [16:33] are there any open questions? is fcitx the default in ubuntu kylin already? [16:34] dholbach, guess this is the decision? KylinJonas, JackYu? [16:34] fcitx-anthy-0.1.1.tar.xz fcitx-chewing-0.1.3.tar.xz [16:34] ubuntukylin want to take fcitx as default [16:35] KylinJonas: Make fcitx default is compatible with shipping both. [16:36] yes, let user decide which to use, i think [16:36] let user decide is very un-ubuntu [16:36] dholbach: yes, we are also make more test to evaluate the effect of fcitx [16:36] Qt Immodule supports so anything using Qt would have less problems.. [16:37] Riddell: .... [16:37] For phones, the problem is the onscreen keyboard have to talk to either input-method framework. Or you only get English onscreen keyboard. [16:38] I have no detailed actually. [16:38] paulliu, so any work about that you're aware of now? [16:38] paulliu: fcitx has a virt keyboard [16:38] ok :) [16:41] thank you very much! I think time is the best judger : ) [16:42] Thanks all! [16:42] Thanks! [16:42] paulliu: https://github.com/fcitx/developer-handbook you may share this with the guy you mentioned [16:44] thanks === udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/community-2/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-community-2.log === udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-2 to: Track: Community | Ubuntu Summer of Code planning meeting | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21691/community-1303-summer-of-code/ [18:12] ok, updated the page - those of you who marked yourselves as "participation essential" should have a link to "join the hangout" [18:12] (you might have to reload) [18:12] I can give you the hangout links as well too if you like [18:26] here is info from Debian project: http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2013/05/index.en.html#gsoc [18:31] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GoogleSoC2012 [18:32] http://wiki.opencog.org/w/GSoC_2012:_Packages_for_Ubuntu_(and_other_Unix-like_systems)_and_Cygwin_port [18:36] http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc2013 [18:36] See last url for timeline [18:37] March 28 is org dealine [18:37] http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc2013 [18:37] is the timeline [18:50] or even with the little experience they have the sign up for a proyect bigger that they can handle [18:50] as in even pitti won't be able to do it in one summer [18:51] good point nxvl [18:51] or even mentors first [18:51] that's how the google summer of code does it [18:52] they have mentors that propose projects and THEN they accept students proposals [18:52] We can make LoCo's sign up for going to the universities and get people [18:52] that should work [18:52] we have a worldwide force that we can use for this [18:53] and have a LoCo universities tour going here and there asing for students to sign up [18:53] dholbach: just let me into the hangout [18:53] thats actually pretty impressive nxvl === udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-2 to: Track: Community | Community Q&A | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21678/community-qa/ [19:01] i can see [19:01] I can see you [19:02] i can't :/ [19:02] hello [19:02] o/ jono [19:02] I can also see you [19:02] Yes it is [19:02] :D [19:02] YAY! Will we finally get a response from the Phoronix guys about wayland non-downsides??? [19:03] this meeting has super cow powers! [19:03] invite please [19:04]