[13:59] <mattyw> jcastro, ping?
[14:00] <Daviey> starting shortly
[14:00] <jamespage> Daviey, great!
[14:01] <jcastro> mattyw: pong!
[14:01] <jcastro> oh, sorry, that machine is rebooting
[14:01] <jcastro> on my way!
[14:01] <Daviey> anyone else joining?
[14:01] <nealmcb> Video "the live event will begin in a few minutes" :)
[14:01] <Daviey> (the fishbowl)
[14:01] <Daviey> nealmcb: just trying to get everyone seated
[14:02] <nealmcb> :)
[14:02] <arosales> Hello
[14:02] <arosales> we are getting started with WebScale Packaging Review session
[14:03] <mattyw> jcastro, you're lightning talk about go juju later - are you going to talk about why it's been re written in go?
[14:03] <arosales> any folks here for that session
[14:03] <jamespage> arosales, so whos running the hangout?
[14:03] <jamespage> arosales, yes
[14:03] <arosales> jamespage: me
[14:03] <zyga-uds2> hi
[14:03] <jamespage> arosales, URL?
[14:03] <arosales> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/f940f0bbd48c29bcb1f6f6d4646ea5dbcef5ed6d?authuser=0&hl=en
[14:03] <zyga-uds2> QUESTION: all three seem to be in the archive today, is this session about wrapping them in juju or something else?
[14:04] <Daviey> oops, wrong channel :)
[14:05] <arosales> jamespage: will you be able to join?
[14:05] <jamespage> arosales, yeah - getting and error joining - just trying with chrome
[14:05] <arosales> jamespage: ok, thanks.
[14:07] <jamespage> arosales, OK _ so I can't join the hangout for some reason
[14:07] <jamespage> I'll tune in and participate via IRC
[14:07] <nealmcb> great set of etherpad notes to start the session!
[14:08] <nealmcb> Video still not showing - is anyone talking yet?
[14:08] <jamespage-not-in> o/
[14:08] <dweaver> nealmcb, yes, the video is working for me
[14:08] <jamespage-not-in> arosales: I'm on it
[14:09] <nealmcb> still says "this live event will begin in a few moments".  I'll try reloading again
[14:09] <arosales> nealmcb: reload the page
[14:10] <nealmcb> But please do note in irc each time the video goes live for a session
[14:10] <nealmcb> ok, got it
[14:11] <jamespage-not-in> arosales: I poked mongodb enough last night to get 2.2.3 into raring
[14:11] <jamespage-not-in> sans SSL support
[14:11] <arosales> jamespage: ah great to hear
[14:11] <jamespage-not-in> IMHO nodejs itself moves far to fast to be in main
[14:12] <jamespage-not-in> utlemming: ^^
[14:12] <jamespage-not-in> yeah and thats OK until we get 10x
[14:13] <jamespage-not-in> its the support that would be a killer - esp security I think
[14:13] <jamespage-not-in> I would actually prefer to see a series align set of PPA's for nodejs
[14:13] <jamespage-not-in> 6.x 8.x 10.x etc. etc.
[14:13] <mariusko_> We are using Node for development, and the PPA version is sufficient, but not the released ones in distro.
[14:14] <jamespage-not-in> for openstack what we have in distro 6.x is sufficient
[14:14] <mariusko_> Other deps, we get from npm
[14:14] <jamespage-not-in> BUT we don't use it for openstack-dashboard runtime - just to generate the less assets statically
[14:15] <jamespage-not-in> RE PPA - there is a maintained PPA already
[14:15] <jamespage-not-in> https://launchpad.net/~chris-lea/+archive/node.js
[14:17] <jamespage-not-in> maybe I'll write a less compressor in python and remove the dependency for openstack
[14:17] <jamespage-not-in> :-)
[14:18] <jcastro> mattyw: it'll mostly be an overview on feature parity. We haven't done a thorough benchmark quite yet.
[14:18] <nealmcb> reliance on specific node.js versions sounds like the messy world of java dependencies - ouch...
[14:18] <mattyw> jcastro, ok thanks
[14:18] <jamespage-not-in> I have tested the SSL support
[14:18] <mariusko_> A version of nodejs in backports would be better I think than PPA, or supply different versions for the user to decide.
[14:18] <jamespage-not-in> had some issues on armhf
[14:19] <jamespage-not-in> utlemming: agreed
[14:19] <niemeyer> FWIW, it's not clear that we cannot include it
[14:19] <jamespage-not-in> GPL code linking to OpenSSL without exception
[14:19] <niemeyer> THere is a specific exception about distribution software with a distribution, IIRC
[14:19] <jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: you are correct - we are following the Debian stance right now
[14:20] <niemeyer> We should talk to a lawyer
[14:20] <jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: Ubuntu can elect todo something different
[14:20] <jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: upstream don't believe there is an issue
[14:21] <niemeyer> jamespage-not-in: If we can legally ship it, it sounds like a big service we'd be doing to people
[14:21] <jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: agreed
[14:21] <mariusko_> Making the ppa endorsed as "official" would probably have the same effect
[14:22] <niemeyer> Since we'd be matching precisely the exception rule
[14:23] <mariusko_> Recompiling wont work when you run "juju add-unit -n 10"
[14:23] <mariusko_> You end up with manual work or different version in different machines
[14:23] <jamespage-not-in> just around mongodb
[14:23] <utlemming> mariusko_: that's was my point about repeatability.
[14:23] <niemeyer> 2.4 is around the block
[14:23] <niemeyer> Do we have plans for including it?
[14:23] <jamespage-not-in> arm support is currently a distro patch (again)
[14:24] <jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: yes
[14:24] <niemeyer> jamespage-not-in: Super, thanks
[14:24] <mariusko_> japp, about nodejs
[14:25] <jamespage-not-in> utlemming: something with arm support would be good
[14:25] <jamespage-not-in> chris's PPA does not have that
[14:25] <mariusko_> Regarding the mongo&SSL, isn't upstream breaking license too?
[14:25] <jamespage-not-in> mariusko_: I don't think so
[14:25] <niemeyer> A PPA is a PPA.. blessing it or not doesn't make a lot of difference in practice it seems
[14:26] <niemeyer> There will still be a package in main, that will be out of date
[14:26] <niemeyer> Upstream cannot ship it
[14:26] <niemeyer> We can
[14:27] <niemeyer> (apparently)
[14:27] <niemeyer> We should ship it if that's true
[14:27] <arosales> niemeyer: mainly I think folks are looking for a way to have confidence in a package and get the latest in terms of node.js.
[14:28] <elmo> utlemming: kind of
[14:28] <jamespage-not-in> utlemming: yes
[14:28] <niemeyer> +1
[14:28] <jamespage-not-in> elmo: do you have a different take on this?
[14:29] <elmo> the distinction is the wording of 'major essential component'
[14:29] <elmo> and whether or not openssl counts as such for Ubuntu
[14:29] <elmo> I'm not qualified to say whether or not it does
[14:29] <elmo> but it's not about whether or not we actually ship libssl
[14:29] <elmo> Debian does too
[14:29] <elmo> it's about whether we/lawyers are happy for that to be considered a major essential component
[14:29] <niemeyer> +1
[14:30] <utlemming> More information from the Gnome Folks: http://people.gnome.org/~markmc/openssl-and-the-gpl.html
[14:30] <elmo> anyway, this is details, and I doubt we can resolve it here
[14:30] <ayr_ton> Can I help with the task of "Identify specific advantages of nginx over apache"?
[14:30] <jamespage-not-in> OK - lets move on from mongodb
[14:31] <jamespage-not-in> I've requested a OpenSSL license exception from upstream to resolve this cleanly
[14:31] <niemeyer> None here :)
[14:33] <niemeyer> no disagreements, that was
[14:34] <mariusko_> What about JBoss?
[14:34] <jamespage-not-in> utlemming: would you like to pickup the work items for nginx?
[14:34] <jamespage-not-in> mariusko_: hmm - massive amout of work to package
[14:35] <jdstrand> some parts of jboss is in universe from Debian. aiui, there is a lot that is not there
[14:35] <jcastro> utlemming: I don't think so
[14:35] <jcastro> oh, I am wrong then. :)
[14:35] <jamespage-not-in> they are extremely out of date
[14:35] <sbeattie> does nginx have a publicly visibile VCS yet? (supportability issue)
[14:35] <jamespage-not-in> utlemming: its not
[14:35] <jdstrand> utlemming: ^
[14:35] <jdstrand> arosales: only some parts
[14:35] <mdeslaur> sbeattie: yes, it does
[14:35] <jamespage-not-in> you can't run jboss from the archive
[14:35] <med_> howdy
[14:35] <sbeattie> mdeslaur: ah okay
[14:35] <mariusko_> JBoss version in Ubuntu is outdated (4.2.x)
[14:35] <med_> FPI ended so others are joining
[14:36] <jamespage-not-in> some of its components are present - but just to support other java packages
[14:36] <jamespage-not-in> the effort to package it fully is not worth the effort
[14:36] <jamespage-not-in> its better charmed
[14:36] <jdstrand> it has regular security updates from RedHat
[14:36] <utlemming> Current release is 7.1
[14:36] <jdstrand> it would be non-trivial to support
[14:37] <mdeslaur> yes, it does, I checked
[14:37] <jdstrand> I haven't looked
[14:37] <jdstrand> utlemming: I was talking about jboss there, not nginx
[14:37] <jamespage-not-in> I would completely support jdstrand on this
[14:37] <jdstrand> I have opinions on nginx, but they are probably out of date
[14:37] <elmo> (<bitter>the lag between IRC and the hangout is awesome</>)
[14:38] <mdeslaur> http://trac.nginx.org/nginx/browser
[14:38] <utlemming> code: svn://svn.nginx.org/nginx
[14:38] <arosales> sbeattie: ^
[14:38] <mariusko> http://wiki.debian.org/JBossPackaging
[14:38] <sbeattie> arosales: thanks
[14:39] <jamespage-not-in> I looked at jboss 2 years ago and ruled it out as a possibility to have effective packaging
[14:39] <med_> mariusko, look at MIR for jboss?
[14:39] <mariusko> MIR?
[14:39] <med_> Main INclusion Request in ubuntu
[14:39] <jamespage-not-in> arosales: thats not the right question
[14:39] <med_> he may not be familiar
[14:40] <jamespage-not-in> the question is - who wants to package Jboss
[14:40] <mariusko> I'm not sure right now. Most users install it manually I think, but for Juju it would be important to have it included.
[14:40] <med_> Not I.
[14:40]  * jamespage-not-in stands back
[14:40] <elmo> jboss is java right?  AFAIK jamespage packages all the Java stuff for Ubuntu
[14:40] <jcastro> :)
[14:40] <med_> mariusko, for Juju, you don't have to have it packaged.
[14:40] <mdeslaur> haha
[14:40] <jamespage-not-in> elmo: I've already expressed my position on this
[14:40] <med_> that's why he's using a hidden nick today
[14:41] <jcastro> from my limited experience with jboss, it's not a simple stack
[14:41] <mariusko> Sure, you could have juju script that fetch it from upstream somehow
[14:41] <jamespage-not-in> I'm not working on this full time for the next 12 months to get together packages which are not maintainable
[14:41] <mariusko> Maybe RedHat would be interested in contributing to getting JBoss in.
[14:41] <jcastro> I don't think "packaging jboss" is the issue. To do real jboss support we'd need like 2 more jamespages.
[14:41] <med_> bwahahahaha.
[14:42] <dedalus> i missed varnish discussion, but i'd be interested in helping with that
[14:43] <jamespage-not-in> this is far more effectively dealt with using Juju and the release tarball from upstream
[14:43] <jamespage-not-in> lets talk about varnish
[14:43] <jamespage-not-in> is ivoks here? hmm - no
[14:43] <dedalus> ah, i guess i didn't miss it :)
[14:43] <med_> jamespage-not-in, the "effectively dealt" is w/r/t jboss, right?
[14:43] <jamespage-not-in> med_: yes
[14:43] <Daviey> jamespage-not-in: Are you suggesting a pool of upstream carried jar's is hard to work with, in packaging ?
[14:43] <jcastro> I know the varnish packager guy
[14:44] <jamespage-not-in> Daviey: don't make me cry
[14:44] <jamespage-not-in> Daviey: OK so it could be packaged (binary style) for Canonical partner
[14:44] <jdstrand> varnish has a security history (3 CVEs)
[14:44] <jcastro> Their webpage recommends to not use the distro packages btw:
[14:45] <jdstrand> arosales: no, but it has a security history (3 CVEs)
[14:45] <jcastro> https://www.varnish-cache.org/installation/ubuntu
[14:45] <jdstrand> heh
[14:45] <jcastro> so if upstream doesn't like the packages
[14:45] <jamespage> makes it much harder
[14:45] <utlemming> "Varnish is distributed in the Ubuntu package repositories, but the version there might be out of date, and we generally recommend using the packages provided by varnish-cache.org."
[14:45] <dedalus> they say they only support LTEs
[14:46] <dedalus> erm, LTSs
[14:46] <jamespage> I think if we want to look at this we need to reach out to upstream to discuss
[14:46] <jcastro> (Full disclosure): I have a work item to convince them to just do that in the charm.
[14:46] <elmo> mithrandir works for the company behind varnish, last I heard
[14:46] <jdstrand> arosales: this attitude from upstream gives me some pause. it suggests they don't support older versions, only the newest
[14:46] <jcastro> looks like they just want to be able to keep it up to date out of band
[14:46] <jcastro> elmo: still does last I checked
[14:46] <mariusko_> Juju charm does install it: http://jujucharms.com/charms/precise/varnish/hooks/install
[14:46] <jdstrand> arosales: which becomes difficult at the tail end of LTS
[14:46] <mariusko_> The distro version
[14:47] <dedalus> also on that page: Please be advised that we only provide packages for Ubuntu's LTS releases, not all the intermediate releases. Note that the packages might still work fine on newer releases.
[14:47] <jcastro> utlemming: right, but the idea was to get them to add a feature to the charm to use their version
[14:47] <ivoks> i think the problem is that the version we have in quantal was released in 2011
[14:48] <ivoks> they don't have that much new versions
[14:48] <jdstrand> I'm less concerned about their packaging. a consideration is how the handle their own releases. that could be fleshed out in the MIR
[14:48] <ivoks> s/much/many
[14:48] <jcastro> either way, whoever we get to do the packages should probably just start by talking to upstream first to see what their concerns are about distro packages
[14:48] <jcastro> aka "How can we ship Varnish that would meet your requirements?"
[14:48] <jdstrand> if there isn't a lot of code churn, upstream's attitude on their support becomes less of a concern (which I think ivoks was hinting at)
[14:49] <jcastro> which is much better than their download page saying "don't use ubuntu's packages"
[14:49] <jdstrand> again, that is something that could be discussed in the MIR process
[14:49]  * jcastro nods
[14:50] <jamespage> just as a side note we need to be better at evaluating whether a Minor Release Exception is appropriate for packages we MIR
[14:50] <dedalus> note Debian also has varnish
[14:50] <dedalus> http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/varnish
[14:50] <jamespage> this might be appropriate for varnish
[14:50] <jamespage> which might help oil things with upstream
[14:50] <jcastro> "Varnish is distributed in the Debian package repositories, but the version there might be out of date, and we generally recommend using the packages provided by varnish-cache.org or packages from backports.debian.org."
[14:50] <jcastro> heh, same issue
[14:52] <jamespage> we should also leverage backports more in Ubuntu as well for this stuff
[14:52] <ivoks> jamespage: +1
[14:52] <jcastro> arosales: yep, assign it away!
[14:52] <jamespage> I intend to request backports of mongodb for precise
[14:52] <jamespage> and quantal
[14:52] <med_> and if they don't "in" the hangout they can't defend themselves.
[14:53] <med_> go for it.
[14:54] <mariusko> Btw, the mongodb package is outdated yes, for quantal and precise
[14:54] <Daviey> I question how exciting backports are
[14:54] <mariusko> Was just updated in Raring.
[14:54] <Daviey> They are as hard to use as a PPA, and have roughly equal distro support
[14:55]  * jdstrand has to go
[14:56] <jamespage> ta
[14:56] <arosales> session ended
[14:56] <jamespage> ttfn
[14:56] <arosales> thanks for everyone's time.
[14:57] <ivoks> we will never have 100% happy upstream since, by nature, we are moving slower than they are; if we would like to make everybody happy, we would have to drop LTS and move to always rolling release
[14:57] <ivoks> and then no one would use the distro :)
[15:00] <arosales> Juju Application Stacks getting kicked off.
[15:04]  * marcoceppi raise?
[15:10]  * niemeyer wonders if jcastro moved back to CUba
[15:10] <niemeyer> Yay
[15:10] <marcoceppi> \o/
[15:11] <jcastro> niemeyer: wrong flag! I am offended!
[15:15] <marcoceppi> deploy all the node apps
[15:17] <mariusko__> hi
[15:19] <marco-summit> It's too early for that
[15:19] <rbasak> arosales: worth trying I think. Good idea! But note that people following the stream have no hope of seeing anything in there unless you select it.
[15:21] <jcastro> elmo: are you in this session?
[15:21] <rbasak> Probably more useful when other charms want a memcached relation?
[15:21] <marcoceppi> It's a key player, but it's not a large key player
[15:21] <elmo> jcastro: I just joined
[15:21] <elmo> jcastro: which charm sorry?
[15:21] <arosales> rbasak: right, if we focus on the IRC  I will give it focus
[15:21] <rbasak> arosales: makes sense!
[15:21] <elmo> jcastro: checking prodstack now, but I don't believe we're using it yet
[15:22] <elmo> jcastro: I think it's part of a lego stack
[15:22] <elmo> it doesn't feel like a standalone full 'stack' like e.g. rails would
[15:23] <elmo> jcastro: ah, so summit was using it
[15:23] <elmo> jcastro: so it's at least functional
[15:23] <elmo> and uccs.ubuntu.com (which is not yet live in prodstack, but is deployed) is using it
[15:23] <marco-summit> It's definitely functional, been using it myself for quite a bit
[15:23] <niemeyer> arosales: The IRC window works..
[15:24] <marco-summit> I don't think any one service has a hard requirement for memcached, a lot use it in a supplementary nature
[15:24] <elmo> arosales: so, in theory, if your service can't function without a cache, your service is broken
[15:24] <elmo> arosales: or so lifeless tells me
[15:24] <marco-summit> elmo: +1
[15:25] <niemeyer> arosales: I think it can be made on demand
[15:25] <niemeyer> elmo, marco-summit: Sure, but needing data in a cache != needing a cache service
[15:26] <elmo> niemeyer: sure, I was partially being flip
[15:26] <niemeyer> I think it's not a high-priority either way
[15:26] <elmo> niemeyer: I agree, some services are going to expect memcache to be available, but we've met that bar
[15:26] <elmo> jcastro: it's the remote login service that modern unity can use
[15:27] <jcastro> ack
[15:27] <rbasak> arosales: +1 for IRC idea. I think it might be particularly useful for those watching the recording later, too.
[15:27] <marco-summit> rbasak: yeah, I can see that being really helpful. Only downside is there's a bit of lag between what we hear and what they say
[15:28] <rbasak> Yeah the lag is annoying but more fundamental to any live interaction with the hangout I think. IRC included.
[15:29] <elmo> jcastro: nope
[15:29] <elmo> some people use redis as a persistent store
[15:29] <elmo> which makes it slightly different case to memcache
[15:29] <mattyw> would anyone here be interested in a neo4j charm?
[15:29] <elmo> jcastro: yeah, that's my reaction ;-)
[15:29] <marco-summit> I've used redis in production, it works along the lines of memcached. Simple to set up
[15:29] <jcastro> mattyw: YES! give me a second to finish out this list
[15:29] <jcastro> then we can move on to new work!
[15:30] <marco-summit> cham works as expected
[15:30] <elmo> jcastro: yep
[15:34] <mattyw> jcastro, ummm
[15:34] <jcastro> mattyw: :)
[15:35] <mattyw> arosales, I've only ever played around with it
[15:35] <niemeyer> It's a graph database
[15:35] <mattyw> arosales, but there's a company behind it, maybe they'd be interested in helping out?
[15:35] <niemeyer> Somewhat of a unique one
[15:36] <mattyw> niemeyer, have you used it? I wrote a toy application to work my way around the london underground, but that was about it
[15:36] <niemeyer> mattyw: No.. I just follow along and watch from the distance
[15:37] <jcastro> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=685615
[15:37] <udsbotu> Debian bug 685615 in wnpp "RFP: neo4j-community -- Neo4j is a high-performance, NOSQL graph database with all the features of a mature and robust databas" [Wishlist,Open]
[15:37] <niemeyer> It's a different class of database than any of the listed ones really
[15:37] <niemeyer> It's not about whether it's a webapp or not.. more about what's the use case
[15:39] <niemeyer> It's very useful for graph-related problems
[15:39] <niemeyer> Network of friends, etc
[15:39] <niemeyer> The real question in the context being debated, though, is how many people have we found that have an app using it
[15:40] <mattyw> I could give it a go
[15:40] <mattyw> I'm no expert though, but I'm happy to take a look
[15:42] <mariusko> I have some real life experience with NodeJS charm, and I believe it has issues common with other user app charms, to get user code deployed
[15:42] <niemeyer> Huh?
[15:42] <mariusko> See https://bugs.launchpad.net/charms/+source/node-app/+bugs?field.status:list=NEW
[15:44] <niemeyer> jcastro: The *data* is, sure..
[15:44] <jcastro> ack
[15:45] <marco-summit> cheers
[15:46] <arosales_> Session ended
[15:47] <arosales_> Thanks for everyone's time
[15:49] <philipballew> Hello world!
[15:56] <arosales> philipballew: hello
[15:58] <arosales> Getting started with http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21692/servercloud-1303-juju-docs/
[15:59] <evilnickveitch> arosales, I hope someone is going to invite me to the hangout :)
[16:00] <arosales> you should see the hangout URL when you load http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21692/servercloud-1303-juju-docs/
[16:00] <arosales> evilnickveitch: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/f87b2b24c412bee262b5e31d2c0633f24a1d9831?authuser=0&hl=en
[16:03] <jcastro> roll call! \o
[16:03]  * marco-summit o/
[16:03] <melmoth> hi there
[16:03] <mattyw> I'm here again
[16:03]  * philipballew waves
[16:04] <mreed> waves
[16:06] <jcastro> https://stripe.com/docs btw is what I mean
[16:07] <jcastro> as an example of awesome docs
[16:08] <arosales_> melmoth, mattyw, mreed , hello :-)
[16:08] <arosales_> marco-summit, hello :-)
[16:16] <marcoceppi> markdown.
[16:17]  * marcoceppi is not biased
[16:24] <marco-summit> Most of all the javascript, if any, should probably be at the template level anyways
[16:24] <marco-summit> So contributors won't have to mess with it
[16:25] <marco-summit> jcastro.md
[16:26] <marco-summit> Everything should be in LaTeX :P
[16:36] <marco-summit> +1 definitely annotate the anatomy of a charm. There really isn't a good place for this
[16:36] <marco-summit> out there currently
[16:40] <marco-summit> evilnickveitch: I tried my hand at this a while ago:
[16:40] <marco-summit> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p--PQprZI8-rGr68M_zW-4rdftaIu6-h6n_UGtfk-Ws/edit
[16:40] <marco-summit> As sort of "the docs really suck at being organized"
[16:40] <evilnickveitch> marco-summit, thanks !
[16:42] <marco-summit> I'd be interested in helping contribute more up to date documentation when time permits
[16:42] <evilnickveitch> marco-summit, okay, thats cool, we should keep in touch
[16:43] <mattyw> it would be good to know when the docs get updated
[16:43] <mattyw> somehow????
[16:43] <mattyw> cool
[16:43] <mattyw> cheers!
[16:44] <marco-summit> cheers!
[17:05] <mreed> waves