[00:10] <zequence> We've been talking about making all our social channels + website have the same kind of look
[00:10] <zequence> I was going to just add the logo and icon, just as they are in the website, but suitably layed out for G+ and FB
[00:11] <zequence> Made it with a small twist https://www.facebook.com/Ubuntustudio
[00:11] <zequence> https://plus.google.com/b/102125777892703446963/102125777892703446963/posts
[00:12] <zequence> Did the work with Inkscape this time. Can't really work with text using Gimp
[00:46] <micahg> zequence: your branch started with a very old version and has quite a few differences with the current version
[00:53] <zequence> micahg: Well, is there a new bzr branch then?
[00:54] <micahg> zequence: we don't usually use branches for the metas
[00:54] <zequence> micahg: I just updated the one that existed with the existing meta, and then did the changes
[00:54] <micahg> right, but that old branch had the old arches enabled
[00:55] <zequence> Has this something to do with how bzr works?
[00:55] <micahg> if you have a debdiff for d/control, and any config files, that's enough for me
[00:55] <micahg> no, it's that the archive version is authoratative
[00:56] <micahg> and updating a branch to a new version won't delete old files
[00:56] <zequence> ok. I'll do a debdiff then.
[01:01] <zequence> micahg: I replaced the debian/control and update.cfg. Now I'm doing an ./update. After that edit the changelog. Then just debdiff?
[01:02] <micahg> zequence: yeah, that should be fine
[01:05] <zequence> micahg: I get a bunch of files that end with .old
[01:08] <micahg> hrm
[01:08] <micahg> did you cd into the new dir?
[01:10] <zequence> ah, I just needed to build the source
[01:10] <zequence> Never did a debdiff before either
[01:11] <zequence> micahg: debdiff the .dsc files?
[01:12] <micahg> yes
[01:14] <zequence> micahg: This ok? http://paste.ubuntu.com/5589254/
[01:18] <micahg> zequence: well, a couple notes, please add a note about fixing the recommends for audio-plugins in debian/control, please leave transitional packages for the old metas with a dependency on the new one (versioned breaks/replaces should be fine), is audio-plugins meant to change at all?
[01:19] <micahg> actually, you might not need any breaks/replaces since these are just metapackages
[01:19] <micahg> the empty packages are to support upgrades (which actually might not be needed anymore now that update manage will remove packages...)
[01:24] <zequence> micahg: recommends for audio-plugins? I don't think I altered anything for it in debian/control.
[01:25] <micahg> you fixed an outstanding bug that I've skipped over due to laziness
[01:25] <zequence> Yeah?
[01:25] <micahg> line 272
[01:26] <zequence> micahg: Ah, right
[01:26] <zequence> I forgot about that. I don't know what the best way would be to go about t
[01:26] <zequence> making changes, and actually remembering them
[01:27] <micahg> just list it in debian/control, * Fixed recommends for audio-plugins package to actually work
[01:27] <micahg> or something
[01:30] <zequence> micahg: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5589282/
[01:31] <micahg> zequence: if audio-plugins is a depends of audio, does it make sense to keep it separate?
[01:31] <zequence> micahg: Yes. Some people will only want to install ardour and a bunch of plugins
[01:31] <micahg> also, can you leave -generation and -recording as transitional packages?
[01:32] <zequence> micahg: What would they do?
[01:32] <len_1304> make upgrades work?
[01:32] <micahg> depend on ubuntustudio-audio
[01:33] <micahg> yeah, make upgrades work
[01:34] <zequence> In case someone only installed -generation or -recording, and with an upgrade, those metas would disappear?
[01:34] <micahg> yeah
[01:35] <zequence> I don't know. It would be nice if one could script that somehow and let the user make a choice
[01:36] <zequence> Otherwise they get a bunch of packages they didn't want to install
[01:36] <len_1304> zequence, at this point it doesn't matter
[01:36] <len_1304> they can only upgrade from 11.10 and up anyway.
[01:37] <len_1304> Since live the user has all of the metas installed..
[01:37] <len_1304> *live DVD
[01:37] <zequence> len_1304: Those who installed using the live DVD, yes
[01:38] <zequence> But not those who used any other flavor, or derivative, or alternate CD to install
[01:38] <len_1304> It's all we really offer.
[01:38] <len_1304> But if we are going to only one meta aren't we already making that choice?
[01:39] <zequence> Users don't like when you make choices for them, but if you can ask, that would be ok, I think
[01:39] <len_1304> How many audio metas do we have?
[01:39] <len_1304> (since your change)
[01:40] <zequence> Two. -audio and -audio-plugins
[01:40] <zequence> -recording and -generation are merged
[01:40] <micahg> zequence: it's standard to upgrade someone to where something moved, if it didn't include the old stuff, I'd tend to agree
[01:40] <len_1304> Right, so you have made a choice for the users that they can no longer have just recording.
[01:41] <zequence> I think of this a bit like changing user setings. An upgrade doesn't do that
[01:41] <len_1304> plugin will stay separate, and recording and generation will depend on the new audio
[01:42] <zequence> It's not like the system is left broken, if the meta disappears
[01:42] <micahg> it makes sure that people that just wanted those tools, still get the meta with those tools
[01:42] <micahg> if they had -desktop installed, it'll pull in the new stuff anyways
[01:43] <len_1304> An upgrade can remove packages if they don't exist in the version and they did in the last
[01:43] <len_1304> *new version
[01:45] <zequence> Well, I'm not going to put up a big fight over it. I can add the two metas, as transitional. I really need to learn more about how this all works anyway
[01:46] <len_1304> micahg, did settings ever get done?
[01:47] <len_1304> (released)
[01:47] <micahg> len_1304: no, I got distracted, let me do that in a bit
[01:48] <len_1304> Ok, If all else fails I can put a bug report in that the new icon package doesn't work.
[01:49] <len_1304> (it looks like FF is back on)
[01:55] <zequence> len_1304: What makes you say that?
[01:56] <zequence> I mean, I think it was always on, just that we haven't yet been confirmed on that it won't be on
[02:00] <zequence> Greg KH posted a funny thing on G+ the other day. Someone told him, now that dbus is being implemented into the kernel, he'd be using BSD from now on. Shortly, a BSD hacker told him they probably want to do that as well
[02:00] <zequence> I mean, implement dbus into their kernel
[02:03] <zequence> micahg: Third time's the charm :) http://paste.ubuntu.com/5589323/
[02:05] <zequence> I'm not really against having even more metas than we have now, btw. I think initially, my goal was to remove the tasks for -generation and -recording
[02:05] <zequence> Also, I don't find those two categories well named, but maybe that's just me
[02:06] <zequence> I'd rather have -sequencers, -soft-instruments, or something in that fashion
[02:07] <zequence> -audio I think should contain a polished set. so, if we have metas that would include more than -audio would, the other -metas wouldn't be preinstalled
[02:07] <micahg> zequence: my other question is since audio depends on audio-plugins, does it make sense to keep them separate (or should that be a recommends?
[02:08] <zequence> micahg: -audio should be the full package, but -plugins you should be able to install without having to install anything else
[02:09] <micahg> zequence: you might want to make the description clearer about the purpose of the package than (-plugins)
[02:10] <zequence> micahg: I don't understand. I haven't touched -plugins. I've simply merged -recording and -generation into -audio
[02:11] <micahg> zequence: sure, this is something extra
[02:11] <micahg> I didn't understand the purpose of the plugins package and i'm guess most other don't either
[02:11] <zequence> Well, there is a good purpose
[02:12] <micahg> apt-cache show ubuntustudio-audio-plugins | grep -A4 Description-en
[02:12] <micahg> Description-en: Ubuntu Studio audio plugins Package
[02:12] <micahg>  Ubuntu Studio is a multimedia creation flavor of Ubuntu for the
[02:12] <micahg>  Linux audio, video, and graphic enthusiast or professional.
[02:12] <micahg>  .
[02:12] <micahg>  A collection of LADSPA, LV2, and DSSI plugins.
[02:13] <micahg> doesn't tell me much about the purpose, just that it's a collection
[02:14] <zequence> I think if you're into audio, you'll understand what they are for
[02:15] <zequence> I'm a little tired now. It's past 3 am. Gotta get up early, and I can't really think straight right now. So either this will have to wait, or we just go with what we have
[02:16] <zequence> I think both holstein and len_1304 would be able to say something useful about this
[02:16] <zequence> gn folks
[02:17] <micahg> see http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-binary.html#s-descriptions
[02:17] <micahg> zequence: sure, I can upload what you have, would be nice if someone could improve the descriptions
[02:19] <zequence> micahg: I'll have a look tomorrow. Thanks, btw, for all your help, and comments. Makes a huge difference
[05:38] <micahg> zequence: meta and livecd-rootfs uploaded, so hopefully there will be images later today
[07:20] <zequence> micahg: Thanks
[08:12] <zequence> We're getting a lot of interest as soon as we post something on any of the social medias. We've gone from reaching about 300 people to 1600 people of fb the last week or so
[08:13] <zequence> We should keep it up and post at least something once a week
[10:34] <astraljava> Good job guys!
[10:40] <zequence-s> I might have to take credit for the past postings, but it would be nice if we could get some kind of routine going with more posters :)
[10:41] <smartboyhw> hello
[10:41] <smartboyhw> (smartboyhw) 7/3 Chinese 8/3 Chinese History 11/3 Chemistry 14/3 English 18/3 Physics 20/3 Geography 26/3 Biology
[10:42] <zequence-s> test dates?
[10:42] <smartboyhw> zequence-s: That's how many tests I''m having in March...
[10:42] <smartboyhw> BAH
[10:42] <zequence-s> Fun fun
[10:42] <smartboyhw> zequence-s not fun
[10:43] <zequence-s> How many pages do you need to read for all those tests combined?
[10:43] <smartboyhw> zequence-s: 300?
[10:44] <zequence-s> smartboyhw, That's not too bad
[10:44] <zequence-s> I'm doing about 50 pages a day
[10:45] <zequence-s> Well, not for the past week
[10:45] <zequence-s> But, from now on
[10:45] <smartboyhw> zequence-s bah that basically means I am missing UDS I might even not be able to join Beta 1 + 2 testing
[10:46] <smartboyhw> zequence-s when are Betas 1 and 2?
[10:53] <zequence-s> smartboyhw, We will only particapate in the final beta
[10:54] <zequence-s> the ISO is not building right now, but as soon as it is, and we have decided that we aren't adding any more features, we should check for bugs
[10:55] <zequence-s> Actually, I want to go through the seeds a bit today, and see if we should add some apps. Like guitarix
[11:00] <smartboyhw> I know it's not working. zequence-s make sure you do it before Feature Freeze tmr.
[11:01] <zequence-s> That's the plan
[11:03] <smartboyhw> ;-)
[11:05] <zequence-s> hmm, we do have guitarix. I think I'll check plugins a bit then
[11:06] <zequence-s> actually, it looks pretty ok
[11:06] <zequence-s> Nothing critical missing from what I can see
[11:06] <smartboyhw> good
[11:06] <zequence-s> Len-nb, Anything more you would like to do before FF?
[11:06] <smartboyhw> len_1304, ^
[11:08] <zequence-s> smartboyhw, He might be sleeping
[11:08] <smartboyhw> zequence-s he should be 
[11:08] <zequence-s> It's fairly early in the morning over there
[11:09] <smartboyhw> yep
[13:24] <zequence-s> here's a pic that shows what happens when you post on our fb page http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=5762
[13:25] <zequence-s> Just shows that it's important to be active in the media
[13:30] <zequence-s> Let's see if Canonical will have the balls to go with the rolling release. Or, if they just wait until after this release to try. I mean, they would have basically 6 months having a go at it
[14:14] <len_1304> zequence-s, getting our -settings released as is would do it for me
[14:15] <zequence-s> Len-nb, I feel fine with what we have too
[14:15] <len_1304> Though I will put it as a bug if it doesn't.
[14:15] <zequence-s> Let's hope the ISO starts building soon, so we can try it out then
[14:15] <len_1304> (new icon theme doesn't work
[14:16] <zequence-s> Still pending upload?
[14:16] <len_1304> I haven't looked this morning, but ti was still waiting last night
[14:17] <len_1304> To be fair, getting ISOs again was a more important use of micahg's time
[14:18] <len_1304> As soon as that is released and I can confirm it works, I will start on the settings manager.
[14:19] <zequence-s> Len-nb, Oh, right. We really should do that today.
[14:20] <zequence-s> Probably not lethal if we miss FF deadline
[14:20] <zequence-s> But, better we have the features in, and then do debuggin, if needed
[14:22] <zequence-s> And the ISO can fail to build too. As long as we aren't making it fail after FF
[14:23] <zequence-s> not sure how all of that works yet
[14:23] <zequence-s> Seems like there's more involved than I realized
[14:23] <len_1304> The features are in...I can manually enable the icon theme. but it is a bug that it isn't by default.
[14:23] <zequence-s> documentation really sucks in some areas
[14:23] <zequence-s> ah, ok
[14:28] <len_1304> The settings manager changes will come next release.
[14:29] <zequence-s> Len-nb, Why wait? Does it require that much work?
[14:30] <zequence-s> also, many people have wished for the open as admin script
[14:30] <zequence-s> It's a bit late to start adding stuff like that
[14:30] <zequence-s> But, there's also no reason to wait
[14:32] <len_1304> FF is tomorrow? I could start, but not finish.
[14:33] <len_1304> If I start messing with settings right now, what I did months ago might not get into this release.
[14:36] <zequence-s> We need to get it uploaded of course
[14:37] <zequence-s> Since it's not a high prio for anyone else but us, it's not as crucial security wise
[14:37] <zequence-s> Strictly speaking, we should have all feature uploads done today
[14:37] <zequence-s> Then, if there are bugs, we fix them, and do new uploads
[14:37] <zequence-s> I'm thinking we should start rolling our own packages completely, and have people sponsor our uploads
[14:37] <len_1304> well thats the only one for me, it finishes all my BP work items
[14:38] <len_1304> Ya, I am beginning to think that too.
[14:38] <len_1304> At least the 32/64 bit agnostic packages.
[14:39] <zequence-s> I'll get the source for default settings, and have a loog
[14:40] <len_1304> Thanks, I have to go to work.
[14:40] <zequence-s> see you
[14:57] <zequence-s> Len-nb, I've uploaded the settings to ppa:zequence/ubuntustudio-dev. The meta is there too (a different version than what is being uploaded), so if you install, do:
[14:57] <zequence-s> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:zequence/ubuntustudio-dev && sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install only-upgrade ubuntustudio-default-settings
[14:58] <zequence-s> Don't ever trust my spelling, btw
[15:41] <scott-work> good morning everyone
[15:42] <scott-work> what do people think about the rolling release concept?
[16:21] <scott-work> i ask because david jordan (of novacut fame) was asking me about our thoughts
[16:21] <scott-work> he linked jason's g+ post: https://plus.google.com/u/0/114471118004229223857/posts/PNJGWmqv6Qe
[16:29] <falktx> heya
[16:30] <falktx> I've been reading the last news about the whole Mir thing
[16:30] <falktx> and Canonical again brings bombs like this...
[16:30] <falktx> it makes me think that they have even other things planned that are not telling anyone
[16:31] <falktx> scott-work: I guess rolling release will be discussed internally at Canonical and some random day in the future announced out of the blue
[16:32] <falktx> very likely when least expected... :(
[16:36] <falktx> or maybe I'm being too pessimistic
[16:37] <micahg> rolling release has been discussed on the ubuntu-devel list for the last week and the discussion is likely to continue for a while
[16:38] <micahg> scott-work: I think a regular release with a shorter lifespan might be interesting, I think a rolling release is a cool idea, but we need to ramp up quality a lot more to have it
[16:38]  * falktx has been considering switching to arch
[16:40] <micahg> did anyone want the new blender in raring?
[16:56] <zequence> micahg: sync from debian? I haven't heard any requests, but I'm sure people will want it latest
[16:57] <micahg> zequence: yeah, I can sync it (if it builds)
[16:57] <micahg> mfv just uploaded 2.66a
[16:59] <zequence> micahg: Any chance of uploading -default-settings today? :)
[16:59] <zequence> I just had a loot at it
[17:00] <zequence> I think we did want one more change, but I'm not sure we'll have time to do it today
[17:01] <zequence> it was that settings manager thing in the menu
[17:01] <micahg> zequence: yeah
[17:01] <micahg> oh, hrm, blender is distro patched?
[17:03] <zequence> scott-work: I've been posting a bit about the suggested changes http://ubuntustudio.org/2013/03/rolling-release-mir/
[17:04] <zequence> scott-work: I think a general opinion is that rolling release needs to be at least somewhat conservative than the development release, but I haven't yet seen any clear plans on how to do that
[17:04] <zequence> somewhat +more conservative
[17:05] <zequence> falktx: Big changes, yes. But all of them things that many people want. Especially a replacement for X (from what one reads). 
[17:05] <micahg> not exactly, but there needs to be at least part of the rolling release that is, in theory, we can have both stable and unstable in rolling at the same time
[17:05] <scott-work> zequence: btw, i like the "contribute" page on the website :)
[17:05] <falktx> zequence: big changes are fine. developing them in secret is not
[17:06] <falktx> specially for a big distro like Ubuntu
[17:06] <zequence> scott-work: Thanks. I also redid "about", but will redo it again. And have a look at our wiki. Been doing a lot of changes http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
[17:06] <zequence> micahg: I meant, comparing the current development release with a future rolling release
[17:07] <scott-work> micahg: one of the concerns of people like david jordan and jason derose is parallel support of many, many releases, so a shorter lifespan seems to be a good aspect
[17:07] <zequence> All though, if Canonicals main objective is to just drop the interim releases and keep a continuous development release, it would seem logical to me to create another layer that would be more conservatively synced from the "development release"
[17:07] <scott-work> micahg: i wonder if we might do like fedora with different repos then? isn't the non-rawhide repo (i.e. the "stable" one) a rolling release as well?
[17:08] <micahg> idk
[17:08] <scott-work> and then rawhide is unstable and rolling as well
[17:08] <zequence> Debian has testing, unstable and experimental
[17:08] <micahg> my idea would be to use -updates for unstable and the release pocket for stable with a britney migration similar to the Debian unstable -> testing transition in between
[17:14] <zequence> scott-work: I've gotten so far with the wiki now, that I felt better not waste any more time, and start fishing for volunteers. 
[17:14] <zequence> I put a couple of posts up, but so far, only one or two serious answers
[17:14] <zequence> ..though, one could see form fb statistics, that people liked to share that kind of posts
[17:15] <zequence> scott-work: Also, what did you think of the theme change I did for fb, and G+?. I was initially just aiming at unifying with the site, as we had been talking about, as well as adding the slogan "linux for creative humans". But, saw the opportunity to add a bit of charm to it
[17:16] <zequence> I'd rather have a graphical artist redo those, and make them awesome, but as we don't have one, I just thought, better get the job done
[17:16] <zequence> We should really try to get someone to help us with the art but
[17:16] <zequence> bit*
[17:17] <zequence> wth
[17:17] <zequence> Just opened the G+ page, and what does it say? "Cover Photos just got bigger"!
[17:18] <zequence> Thanks G+
[17:18] <zequence> Now I have to redo it again
[17:18] <zequence> Well, one can wait
[17:38] <zequence> I'm not at all sure those G+ covers will be very long lived
[17:38] <zequence> Once you change it, it takes up the whole damn page
[17:57] <zequence> lightning talks just starting http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21665/lightning-talks/
[17:57] <zequence> After that the Xubuntu session
[17:58] <falktx> UDS is live *right now* ?
[17:59] <falktx> hm firefox can't play the video... :S
[18:07] <micahg> len_1304: ah, thanks for doing most of the merge for 0.40 -settings, I fixed the timestamp and tagged it, now I just have to review the changes before I upload
[18:10] <scott-work> zequence: LOL @ cover photos
[18:11] <scott-work> zequence: i haven't looked at the FB page in a while. i'll have to do that at home as we block it at work. granted i don't usually use FB anyways
[18:14] <scott-work> zequence: serendipitously  i just saw this : http://xubuntu.org/contribute/
[18:14] <scott-work> xubuntu then has subpages for specifics
[18:14] <scott-work> like this: http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/
[18:14] <scott-work> i like that a lot
[18:22] <scott-work> zequence: i like the g+ page picture, probably the best we have done so far
[18:27] <zequence> scott-work: It's very bare (g+). The format now is a 1920x1080 wallpaper basically
[18:28] <zequence> I regret being so hasty to edit looks on pages
[18:28] <zequence> The fb cover is badly done. The blue text needs to be separated a bit
[18:30] <zequence> micahg: Seems like the build failed again. Same problem as last time basically https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2013-March/004908.html
[18:31] <zequence> falktx: You can't get the video to play?
[18:31] <zequence> It's regular youtube
[18:31] <micahg> zequence: I'll have to see if I missed something
[18:31] <falktx> zequence: wrong codec, firefox doesn't load it with html5
[18:31] <falktx> I guess it needs flash... errrg
[18:33] <zequence> micahg: I'm highly suspecting the seeds now  lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.raring
[18:34] <micahg> ok, I'll have to look after this hangout is done
[18:34] <zequence> yep
[18:36] <zequence> falktx: Not much left of the UDS this time: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/2013-03-06/
[18:36] <zequence> falktx: Currently, Xubuntu having a session about rolling http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21666/community-xubuntu-contingencies/
[18:36] <zequence> falktx: All the videos are available, so just look in each session
[18:37] <falktx> later
[18:37] <falktx> too much stuff to do, I'm kinda losing interest on Ubuntu
[18:38] <zequence> falktx: You don't like Debian, Ubuntu.. Is it going to be Arch and Gentoo for you?
[18:39] <falktx> not sure, I'm gattering user opinions now
[18:39] <falktx> http://forum.linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=10762
[18:41] <zequence> falktx: So far, no decisions have been made on rolling release. the community is involved in discussions, and so can you. MIR is the kind of thing people want, but it won't replace X, just that the community will need to maintain it. Or, just import from debian. What has changed, other than time moves forward, and things change?
[18:43] <falktx> what hasn't changed is Canonical bringing bombs like that and doing development in closed doors
[18:43] <falktx> if they do this, they will do other similar things
[18:43] <falktx> I wouldn't be surprised to see a Qt5 fork some time in the future
[18:45] <zequence> IMO Canonical have the freedom to develop what they want, just like any developers. Granted, if they start making the system libraries customized in a way which wouldn't allow for the upstream original libraries to coexist, that would be bad
[18:46] <zequence> And, that the system libraries would be incompatible with upstream applications
[18:46] <falktx> I'm ok with they developing whatever it is, as long as it's announced first
[18:46] <falktx> or done in the open
[18:46] <zequence> falktx: So, isn't that exactly what happened now?
[18:47] <falktx> mir, they developed for almost a year, and want to replace X later
[18:47] <falktx> there's a reason why most kde devs are not in Ubuntu
[18:47] <zequence> So what? X won't disappear
[18:47] <falktx> Canonical seems to want to bring DRM to Ubuntu too
[18:47] <zequence> Can't say I know that problem fully
[18:47] <falktx> I don't like that
[18:49] <scott-work> falktx brings up a good point that i've thinking about for a while...canonical is _very_ disruptive with ubuntu's development
[18:49] <falktx> I'm glad I'm not alone on this
[18:49] <scott-work> the cadence discussion years back between distros, bazaar, MIR, gnome, etc
[18:50] <falktx> ubuntu's future is very uncertain
[18:50] <zequence> I don't agree fully on that. They are a big player, among very small ones. When they decide to do something, it has a bigger impact
[18:51] <scott-work> i understand why people like jan wilderboer and fab schershel give canonical/ubuntu/sabdfl grief
[18:51] <falktx> zequence: the problem is that Canonical has a bad habit of doing this kind of things, for some time now
[18:51] <falktx> NIH syndrome
[18:51] <zequence> There's no way to get forward quickly, if not moving quickly
[18:51] <zequence> The community is very adaptable, and if MIR is a good window system, every one will want to support that
[18:51] <scott-work> frankly, however, i support canonical's development. i think they are evolving and want to do amazing things. these things most likely either couldn't be done or done in a timely fashion otherwise
[18:52] <falktx> zequence: they could have told everyone that they were doing MIR, no?
[18:52] <falktx> what's the excuse for it?
[18:52] <scott-work> zequence: but i feel canonical is pushing some community members out while expecting others (different types) to come in with the new vision
[18:52] <zequence> falktx: There's more than enough time to adapt. MIR is scheduled to be fully in use for 14.04. X won't disappear.
[18:53] <zequence> I've never thought Ubuntu is the best distro to be in, if you have the most pure ideals
[18:53] <falktx> zequence: but what's next? no one can know if Canonical for example decides to drop support for some community variants 
[18:54] <zequence> falktx: If they do that, it will be very problematic for them
[18:54] <falktx> do they care?
[18:54] <zequence> I don't care if they do
[18:54] <falktx> once they reach mobile, there's no one stopping them
[18:55] <falktx> if Canonical gets profitable, they have no more reasons to support community versions
[18:55] <zequence> As long as it's free software
[18:55] <zequence> falktx: The community might need to change
[18:55] <zequence> falktx: If Ubuntu finds a way to become really big, that probably means things *have* to change
[18:55] <falktx> and then so does UbuntuStudio and others
[18:56] <falktx> US is basically doing whatever Canonical wants with no say on the matter
[18:56] <zequence> That is not true at all
[18:56] <zequence> And, frankly, I feel you are being paranoid without a reason
[18:57] <falktx> I'm been cautious
[18:57] <falktx> making a distro is a lot of work
[18:58] <zequence> Ubuntu Studio is in no way governed by Canonical
[18:58] <zequence> And never will be
[18:58] <falktx> it's a canonical brand
[18:58] <zequence> That may be so, but that doesn't change the nature of the relationship
[18:59] <zequence> It's just a name
[18:59] <falktx> I'm still worried neverthless
[18:59] <zequence> Worry makes you make bad decisions, and treat people with suspicion
[18:59] <falktx> like I'm walking on a mine field, don't knowing what could explode next. that's ubuntu for me
[19:01] <zequence> We're not quite there yet, I would say. We're rather in the position where people are so stuck in their own worlds, and ways of thinking, that when Ubuntu takes one step forwards, it's like your universe collapses, and all you knew is suddently not what you thought it was
[19:02] <zequence> It is quite a normal reaction
[19:02] <zequence> But, things do change
[19:02] <falktx> well, I'm not sure I trust Canonical anymore
[19:02] <falktx> but that's me
[19:02] <zequence> I don't trust anyone. There's no reason to
[19:03] <zequence> I'm not seeing any indication of there not being the same possibility for communities to work close to Canonical, so far. But, I'm quite sure the relationship we have with them now will change, if Ubuntu gets very big
[19:04] <zequence> One simple reason might be, that there will be new resources to fill the work that we are doing now, and that much of what we do now would not be needed anymore
[19:04] <zequence> Different OSs on Ubuntu phone?
[19:05] <zequence> Maybe, but not the way it's now
[19:08] <micahg> falktx: it seems like a lot of things happened at once which made people feel uneasy, after being in the hangout with Jono and Rick Spencer, I'm convinced that Canonical's policy is the same that it's always been, which is to be a member of the community that tries to lead the way within the structure of the community that it's a part of
[19:47] <scott-work> if ubuntu goes rolling release, i wonder what options that leaves for us, i.e. do we have to use a rolling release as well?
[19:54] <micahg> well, you don't have to advertise regular users to use it, but the only "releases" would be the LTS ones
[19:55] <zequence> For us a rolling release would be the least worrysome
[19:55] <zequence> It's much worse for the other flavors
[19:56] <zequence> People can always use our metas no matter which system they are on
[19:56] <zequence> And from what I've seen so far, it could work fairly well
[19:57] <zequence> Just that, even if Unity has been stable the last 6 months, doesn't mean all of the desktops have been
[19:57] <zequence> I would suspect mostly because people take less care with updates during development release
[19:57] <zequence> Since you have time to test things, and fix bugs
[19:58] <zequence> If Xubuntu doesn't go rolling release, that would be problematic for us though
[19:59] <micahg> well, if the archive is rolling, it's rolling
[20:05] <scott-work> micahg: that was kinda my concern ;)
[20:21] <zequence> micahg: the metas seem fine anyway
[20:22] <zequence> I'm thinking I've just messed up with the seeds somehow
[20:22] <zequence> Probably something obvious for someone who knows that stuff better than I do
[20:24] <micahg> zequence: I didn't add audio-plugins as a task
[20:25] <zequence> micahg: So, that is not done in seeds?
[20:26] <zequence> If so, I think I know what's wrong (maybe)
[20:26] <zequence> Or, not..
[20:26] <zequence> Where are the tasks created?
[20:28] <micahg> they're added in livecd-rootfs
[20:29] <zequence> micahg: Cause, I left out all the Task* stuff from the audio-plugins seed
[20:29] <micahg> I guess I can add audio-plugins and reupload
[20:29] <micahg> hrm
[20:29] <zequence> micahg: No, that's fine
[20:29] <zequence> I think we only need audio
[20:30] <zequence> micahg: But, what would be great is if you could add desktop
[20:30] <zequence> That has been missing for a while now
[20:30] <micahg> to the rootfS?
[20:30] <zequence> micahg: Yes. I assume that makes the task appear in the alternate install?
[20:31] <micahg> no
[20:31] <zequence> Oh, yeah
[20:31] <zequence> livecd-rootfs
[20:31] <zequence> There's another one too,right?
[20:33] <zequence> micahg: We of course want audio-plugins to be a part of the default installation, if that is what livecd-rootfs provides
[20:34] <micahg> it should get pulled in by ubuntustudio-audio though
[20:34] <zequence> ok
[20:34] <micahg> oh, nm, it
[20:34] <micahg> s in there
[20:34] <micahg> live-build/auto/config:	ubuntustudio-dvd)
[20:34] <micahg> live-build/auto/config:		add_task install minimal standard ubuntustudio-desktop ubuntustudio-audio ubuntustudio-font-meta ubuntustudio-graphics ubuntustudio-audio-plugins ubuntustudio-video ubuntustudio-publishing ubuntustudio-photography
[20:35] <zequence> Ok, looks good
[20:40] <zequence> micahg: So, there are really two things I'm looking to fix. One is of course having the DVD to build. The other, to get -desktop as a part of the tasks for the alternate CD. That is what I thought was done in seeds. Is that correct?
[20:41] <micahg> no, I think that's tasksel
[20:41] <zequence> ah, there's a package called that
[20:41] <zequence> Will look that up
[20:44] <zequence> hmm, it's there. Wonder why it has not shown up in the task selection then, during install
[20:46] <zequence> Maybe it appeared after last update
[20:46] <zequence> Today..
[20:46] <zequence> I'll check a daily later to see
[20:47] <zequence> micahg: So, any chance you could spot what's wrong with our seeds?
[20:47] <len_1304> zequence, lots of metas got updated :)
[20:48] <zequence> len_1304: Well, cjwatson went ahead and updated tasksel for both us and edubuntu. perhaps from talking with micahg 
[20:48] <len_1304> They are showing up on my daily update.
[20:48] <zequence> tasksel is apparently a package. I didnt' know that before. It uses seeds to create its contents
[20:49] <len_1304> Is there a different one for each flavour?
[20:50] <zequence> No. All the flavors are configure in the same file
[20:51] <zequence> Then a script looks up the seeds, and auto fills a dir with files
[20:53] <len_1304> I thought so, but wasn't sure.
[20:54] <zequence> The dirs for where the seeds is located there too
[20:54] <zequence> I mean, URLs
[21:07] <zequence> Nope, still not showing
[21:08] <micahg> zequence: I can have a look in a bit
[21:08] <zequence> ubuntustudio-desktop I mean, in tasksel. All the other tasks do. Audio even, which I recently did. I'll try installing
[21:08]  * micahg has to run out now
[21:08] <zequence> micahg: See you later man
[21:09] <zequence> I chose audio only, to see what happens :). Not sure what it will install other than the audio deps
[21:16] <len_1304> zequence, re:wayland/mir is there somewhere I can read some stuff about them?
[21:25] <zequence> len_1304: This was released when MIR was announced https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec
[21:26] <zequence> Don't know much about Wayland, but apparently, many people have changed their minds about it
[21:27] <len_1304> Big Linux distros are becoming more consumer oriented... as opposed to developer/hobbiest oriented.
[21:27] <len_1304> There is nothing wrong with that.
[21:28] <len_1304> But, a lot of things that Linux supports very well right now are tending to be compromised to do it.
[21:29] <len_1304> Development work or content creation, have different requirements, but are only a small part of the user spectrum.
[21:30] <len_1304> For all many people have dreamed of Linux taking over the computer world, I don't think many realized it would be by catering to the masses :)
[21:31] <zequence> I think there's a good chance Ubuntu will be much less a Debian derivative in the future, all though, as long as the community can maintain their own packages, that just means more options
[21:31] <len_1304> There are things I have in mind that would be very useful to a few people, I just want to see if these X replacements will let me do them.
[21:35] <zequence> len_1304: What sort of things?
[21:35] <len_1304> Things that use server client stuff. Running an appp on one machine that displays on another.
[21:42] <len_1304> It seems to me that the server/client part of X is what most people want to switch for because that causes the most problems for speed.
[21:46] <zequence> Woa, cool
[21:46] <zequence> First time I boot a new install of Ubuntu Studio raring for a while
[21:47] <zequence> Installing the audio task from a mini install also installed the desktop
[21:47] <zequence> Still, we probably want the desktop tast there too :P
[21:47] <len_1304> I think MIR or wayland are not so much a way forward as a means to a different end. Also useful.
[21:48] <len_1304> Installing the desktop task? I would have thought that was not what you would want.
[21:48] <len_1304> ie. someone has kde and just wants audio.
[21:49] <zequence> Well, not sure if the desktop installs if you also install another desktop
[21:49] <zequence> it's not the same as with the metas
[21:49] <len_1304> Ok, gotta go for a bit... C U in a while.
[21:49] <zequence> ok, bye
[21:51] <zequence> What I would like to have now is my own build server, so I could do some experimentation. That would actually help a lot
[21:51] <zequence> Would also be useful for not just Ubuntu Studio, but anyone else who wanted to automate ISO building for custom work
[21:54] <zequence> So, everything seems to work, but our ISO build
[22:27] <zequence> I'm going to set up my own build server. what the heck. Then I can build my own custom releases, if I want to
[23:11] <zequence> Found this quite helpful http://www.mythbuntu.org/development/developer-cheatsheet
[23:12] <zequence> Going to add one of those to our wiki once I get the hang ot if
[23:12] <zequence> of it*