[00:00] JontheEchidna: while you are still on the council, fancy writing a blog post outlining how kubuntu has not ever been under canonical or blue systems management and explain how blue systems is not funding development but supporting it? [00:00] Fair enough! I guess I can see the point there. Personally though I can easily see (and this is the case I've run into with friends) intermediate users who are looking for something more in-depth than than MSC may well then find Synaptic first in their trawling of *buntu land, unawares that a native KDE/Kubuntu program existed for the same purpose. [00:01] apachelogger: Would I be responding to anyone in particular by writing that post? [00:01] keithzg: I guess, then again there is nothing wrong with using synaptic and perhaps the solution to that would simply be more pro-active in terms of promoting the muon package manager [00:02] JontheEchidna: not a good idea that can easily start a shitstorm + you'd be generating page rank value :P [00:02] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbFEresC2zg for example [00:02] oh, wrong one [00:02] sec [00:02] http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=QzzthuA63Yw [00:02] that one [00:03] This is the final Kubuntu to be released under the management and funding of Canonical, from now on development is being funded by Blue Systems. [00:03] and the 12.10 follow up [00:03] Review of Kubuntu 12.10 Final Release. This is the first released of Kubuntu under the management and funding of Blue Systems. The code base and package locations are the same as before, so theres no noticeable difference for the end user. [00:03] both of which wrong [00:03] and particularly the last one is concerning [00:03] right, I wouldn't actually name names, but if it hadn't been an issue (which I see now that it is) it might look a bit suspicious for me to be suggesting the question in the first place [00:04] completely misstates the relationship with blue systems [00:04] JontheEchidna: just go "there seems to be general confusion blahblbha" [00:04] http://apachelog.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/kubuntu-is-not-ubuntu/ [00:05] e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEIB4baOSd8 :P [00:05] if I were to write a clearification it would be pretty much that with s/canonical/blue systems/ [00:05] JontheEchidna: ^^ [00:05] JontheEchidna: on a related note in that dude's review we apparently impvoed by 10% from .04 to .10 [00:06] although the rating seems to be made up on the spot [00:06] i.e. also the categories that are rated [00:06] totally weird [00:06] JontheEchidna: if I were you I'd bash the dude behind the first review though in some mail or something [00:07] he's basically called all your code crap [00:08] what's funny though ... when people say shit crashes they never ever mention my debuginstaller so I must suspect they are just trying to be unfriendly as clearly they have not even reported a bug about the crash [00:08] friendly people report bugs! [00:09] "Amarok and Dragonplayer. Amarok seems a bit buggy, and dragonplayer doesn't have enough features." [00:11] apachelogger: Yeah, I see the point re:MSC. It does seem like a tricky situation since the two programs overlap in use, but not in specific functionality. [00:12] yeah [00:12] Perhaps the Muon Software Center 'handbook' would be a reasonable place to mention the Package Manager? (admittedly I see "documentation not found" when I open that, so maybe I'm opening a can of worms right now; OTOH if there's a way I could contribute to that I'd be more than happy to try, assuming we assume anyone reads help pages anymore) [00:12] just enteraining the idea right now anyway [00:12] JontheEchidna: muon has no documenation? :P [00:12] oh [00:12] that reminds me [00:12] no docbook, no [00:12] * apachelogger should rewrite khelpcenter :/ [00:12] :///////////////////////////////// [00:12] ^ me with a beard [00:13] heh [00:14] apachelogger: eh, the first video you posted does raise a good point, in that there's no way to show technical package results from the main screen search box. (Searching in a view for any particular origin or the installed packages works) [00:14] but no bug report == I couldn't have known [00:15] * JontheEchidna notes that Muon Discover currently has no support for showing non-application packages [00:16] apachelogger: I did how he glossed over MPM though, must have nothing to complain about :P [00:17] ^^ [00:17] at any rate, I've already blasted a review in the past and I don't really care enough now to do it again: http://jontheechidna.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/a-review-gone-wrong/ [00:17] valorie: how was the session? [00:17] s/I did how/I did like how/g [00:17] JontheEchidna: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed" [00:18] * apachelogger fonldes the Riddell [00:18] kubotu: no u [00:18] Riddell: apparently rolling is somewhat off the table [00:18] mm, fonldesing [00:18] instead 6 month cadance with reduced supportness [00:18] apachelogger: mm? [00:18] well, it's yet another proposal [00:18] apachelogger: this is from a canonicalite or xubuntu wishlist? [00:19] mikah and rick worked that idead out [00:19] nobody sent something to ubuntu-devel yet [00:23] apachelogger: I do have the Ubuntu software store apps showing up in muon though: http://i.imgur.com/nJsOQ8y.jpg [00:23] that was the easy part [00:23] just parse a bit of json [00:24] they just can't be installed :s [00:40] Hi, I'm a long term kde user and after reading Riddell 's post today, I would like to know if you have a path to follow in the near future, regarding Canonical's position. [00:43] isaque: no it's all still being discussed [00:45] Is there a place to join and help in the discussion? [00:50] isaque: here's good :) [00:50] isaque: ubuntu-devel has long threads [00:51] I'm currently watching http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21666/community-xubuntu-contingencies/ from today [01:02] isaque: what's your opinion as a presumably non contributor user? [01:04] Riddell: I'm glad you asked. I just want a Desktop that works and doesn't brake. But that doesn't mean a desktop stuck in time. [01:05] * keithzg thinks that'd make a good marketing line for something: "a desktop that doesn't break; a desktop that doesn't brake" ;) [01:05] isaque: what release do you use at the moment? [01:05] Riddel: I've seen this in Kubuntu and in a few other distros. [01:05] 12.10 [01:06] But I've added the ppas for KDE 4.10 [01:06] Riddell: At work I need to use the company's choice that means a colorful hat on it :) [01:07] isaque: why do you use 12.10 + PPA and not raring? [01:07] keithzg: sorry, non-english speaker, so I mess sometimes with the words [01:09] xnox: would I be right in thinking the only part of KDE that uses consolekit is kdm and since we use lightdm we don't need to care about the change to logind? [01:09] isaque: oh, no worries, I didn't mean to make fun of you at all, I just was struck by the potential dual-meaning there :) doesn't break->doesn't crash, doesn't brake-> doesn't stop! Nice symmetry. [01:10] Riddell: kdm only uses it becuase I think I dropped it's patches to support consolekit [01:10] Riddell: http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu/download points to 12.10 [01:10] well [01:10] it doesn't use it anymore :P [01:10] * apachelogger should go to bed [01:11] Riddell: lightdm will grow logind support and ksmserver/powerdevil have logind suppport alraedy [01:11] and kdm has neither support so that's fine too [01:13] Riddell: so it was just a matter of following the links :) [01:14] Riddell: so, I was talking about my company's choice. The desktop doesn't break (as keithzg just noticed ;)) but the KDE version is very, very old. [01:14] Riddell: sure. but we want a logind capable kdm in the archive once we are planning to drop consolekit from the archive. [01:15] apachelogger: lightdm is planned to gain logind support as pre-provided by the pam stack. No explicit logind support code in lightdm. [01:15] Riddell: if i find if something needs to be done with kdm, i'll simply document that. [01:15] and ping the right people =) [01:16] xnox: that's neat [01:16] supposedly it will work with kdm then [01:16] kdm's author was/is a big fan of pam ^^ [01:17] ultimately that was his complaint with actual consolekit support in kdm [01:17] * apachelogger heads to bed o/ === Guest48005 is now known as vibhav === jono is now known as Guest19637 === murthy_ is now known as murthy [04:37] apachelogger: what happened to tomahawk? === murthy is now known as murthy_ [04:57] murthy_: shadeslayer was reviewing and as usual he got sleepy or had an exam or something. [05:07] BTW, fixed Qscintilla2 uploaded. [05:07] Riddell: ^^^ [05:45] I've been running Raring for about a week now and it is looking great, except that I can't seem to get desktop searching running. I have enabled Nepomuk file indexer, but it still says it isn't running. [05:47] Running qdbus org.kde.nepomuk.services.nepomukfileindexer /nepomukfileindexer updateAllFolders false produces Cannot find '.updateAllFolders' in object /nepomukfileindexer at org.kde.nepomuk.services.nepomukfileindexer [06:38] good morning [07:07] howdy, guys the link for "12.04.2" on this page http://www.kubuntu.org/news/12.04.2-release should probably be changed to something better than https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/FIXME :) [07:08] sigh... I think I will have to reinstall :/ [07:08] SOmethinng, somewhere is screwed and this system is close to unuseable === Adityab_ is now known as Adityab [07:20] :) [08:01] morning soee [08:02] hi jussi [08:02] what happend to your system ? [08:03] soee: still the kwallet issues unfortunately. I boot, the wireless sits at waitring for auth, I have to delete the connection and start again. Kontact asks multiple times foe permission to use kwallet. ktp doesnt even connect anyumore. its just fecked. :/ [08:05] what version ? [08:06] 4.10 (upgraded this morning, no changes) [08:06] and kubuntu v ? [08:08] 12.10 [08:10] shadeslayer: oh shadeslayer... [08:10] where are you!!! [08:18] jussi, strange i have running it without any problems [08:26] soee: see, I think shadeslayer was to blame... I *might* have fixed it... lets see [08:31] shadeslayer: you break that nightly ppa and I shall kill you :P :P [08:36] Riddell: sorry, I was out [08:36] session went OK, I think [08:36] I will blog about it now [08:37] and of course the video is available === slacker_1l is now known as slacker_nl [09:06] valorie: thanks so much for doing that [09:06] it was sorta fun [09:07] not as fun as *real* UDS [09:07] but still [09:07] plus: hat! [09:09] a nice touch I thought :) [09:09] valorie: We need a Ubuntu Foundation ;) [09:10] I wish I wasn't left feeling that our special/rushed UDS wasn't to give us cranks a way to blow off steam, before they do exactly as they had planned already [09:11] bkerensa: yes [09:11] running a foundation is a lot of work, however [09:12] valorie: indeed but I'm sure people could step up [09:12] Automattic gave its trademark to the WordPress Foundation way back when to ensure that Automattic's business couldnt affect the WordPress Community's direction [09:12] cor I'm making headlines again http://www.muktware.com/ [09:13] Riddell: good headlines [09:13] Riddell: glad to see more people being outspoken on it [09:13] I haven't done my reading of ubuntu-devel yet [09:14] might have to wait until tomorrow [09:14] but good on ya Riddell for getting your personal ads and headshots out everywhere [09:14] :-) [09:15] you beat out both Linus and asiego [09:15] lol [09:17] Well, it works because KUbuntu occupies a niche. That's why you can be as outspoken as you want. There is no business to lose, only buzz to gain. [09:17] But yeah, kudos for everyone who grew a spine over the years. [09:20] When there is one large company largely driving development, and being nearly the sole source of funds, there are bound to be conflicts, and trouble for the community [09:21] these recent proposals don't seem to have unanimous support in Canonical, however [09:21] so maybe UDS really was useful in some small way [09:21] it was all too rushed though [09:22] bkerensa: how did your GSoC session go? [09:22] Tm_T: for sure [09:22] valorie: Uhh I was sick... I am feeling better now but something tells me when I wake tomorrow I will feel it again [09:22] s/tomorrow/today [09:23] I'm really wondering what was behind all this last-minute stuff [09:23] sorry to hear that, Ben [09:23] get some extra sleep [09:23] Indeed... Well I slept all day yesterday so no idea when I will get tired ;) its 1:23am now so idk [09:23] ah [09:24] my dad's nursing home has been wracked by the flu and the norovirus both this winter [09:24] they all lived through it though [10:17] Riddell: can't you get rid of that COP link showing on every blog post you make in planet? [10:17] DCOP* [10:24] Mamarok: I don't want it to get lonely, DCOP doesn't receive much love these days [10:34] Riddell: did you see http://fitoschido.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/re-an-ubuntu-community-that-is-a-community/ [10:34] it's a reply to you [10:34] I can never seem to comment on your blogs either [10:35] valorie: yes, I posted a comment on his blog that he's entirely misunderstood my meaning [10:35] cool [10:35] he did seem quite pissed off [10:35] but it needs approval or something [10:36] I'd be pissed off too if someone said "ubuntu does care about ubuntu" but that's not what I said [10:36] right [10:37] I'd be pissed off too if someone said "ubuntu doesn't care about ubuntu" but that's not what I said [10:37] I haven't read planet ubuntu for yonks [10:37] bad me [10:38] it was losing interest for me too but it's quite a good read this week :) [10:39] is it true that sabdfl didn't participate in UDS at all? [10:40] I've been only able to watch 3 sessions or so [10:40] i guess he talked with the CC, but that's not at all the same [10:41] apachelogger, whats the status of this plymounth concept ? [10:41] omfg, someone just said the the vUDS's will be more agile! [10:41] gah [10:42] valorie: more syncrinosity I thought :) [10:42] valorie: he did not unless he was watching from IRC... participate he did not [10:43] he didn't even keynote [10:43] ;) [10:43] maybe he just wanted to watch [10:43] valorie: you coming to OSCON this year? I guess Canonical is paying for the booth but no idea how thats going to work with community etc [10:44] valorie: I have come to learn he is quite the lurker :) he has popped on G+ and Reddit [10:44] bkerensa: do you know if there will be another CLS? [10:44] that's a lot more fun [10:44] valorie: yes its the weekend before UDS [10:45] however, if there will be a booth, it might be fun to come down for a few days [10:45] now that my boys have moved to CT I never get down there any more [10:45] :D [10:45] Well finally after four years I will hopefully be up in Bellingham/Seattle next month for LFNW [10:47] \o/ [10:47] there is #lfnw although it isn't very active yet [10:48] Riddell: not to mention, you have to login to his blog also to comment (: [10:48] atleast I had to [10:49] yes, but recently I can't seem to successfully login [10:50] I don't mind logging in, actually [10:56] me neither, when it's sensible [10:58] I love the idea of using google/wordpress/whatever login to several services (in a sensible manner, ofcourse) instead of creating 20+ accounts [11:01] that's what openid was ment to be but it never caught on [11:01] wordpress hates me for some reason [11:01] oh well [11:01] eyes closing, must sleeeeep [11:02] nighters all [11:02] night night valorie [11:02] yofel: emacs24? did you ask for that? [11:02] not quite... I wanted to have plasmate in actually [11:02] and nepomuk-widgets. At least that worked [11:02] http://www.ubuntu.com/news/UbuntuFoundation [11:02] :D [11:03] "It's important for us to distinguish the philanthropic and non-commercial work that is at the heart of the Ubuntu project, from the commercial support and certification programs that are the focus of Canonical Ltd." said Mark Shuttleworth [11:03] bkerensa: that never happened [11:04] Riddell: oh I know [11:04] Riddell: I just wanted to point out the irony ;) [11:05] Riddell: could you look at kubuntu.raring/supported to check what I did wrong? [11:05] 0 ? Unknown supported package: plasmate [11:07] yofel: you put a * and a packagename, looks like good syntax to me [11:09] yofel: is this you planning to update plasmate to 1.0? [11:10] well, that was kind of the idea. And I was doing a sanity check on the KDE SC package list (that's where nepomuk-widgets came from) [11:11] yofel: https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/backports/+packages is timing out for me, are the packages in and tested? can I put an announcement on kubuntu.org? [11:12] yofel, did you decided yesterday about plymounth ? [11:12] Riddell: they are tested (and should all be published) [11:12] the timeout comes from me messing up [11:13] (I changed the API call in the copy script missing one option which resulted in the page now trying to show ~280 rejection messages I guess) [11:13] filed a bug, but couldn't yet get anyone to clean the mess up [11:14] mm, how can the copying script affect what launchpad displays for a web page? [11:15] ah it'll have an error box at the top of the page? [11:15] exactly [11:15] with.. ~300 errors... === murthy_ is now known as murthy [11:26] hello everyone [11:33] hi murthy [11:33] Riddell: hi [11:33] Riddell: Thanks for the blogs [11:34] shadeslayer: what happened to tomahawk [11:36] Riddell: 13.04 feature freeze done>? [11:38] murthy: valorie has the current crown of the blogs [11:38] murthy: will be this EU evening [11:38] Riddell: ya saw her blog [11:39] smartboyhw is good too [11:39] I see sabdfl has weighed in now [11:39] Riddell: ya [11:40] Good afternoon [11:42] hmm smartboyhw has also mis-read by blog, maybe that suggests I mis-wrote it [11:42] Riddell: the single thing? [11:43] Riddell: do you know the status of the tomahawk? [11:44] yofel: can i package libqtwitterlib-dev? [11:44] murthy: I've not been keeping up on tomahawk, I thought apachelogger has mentoring you into packaging it? [11:44] sure you can, and it would be cool if you did. Rough packaging is in ppa:tomahawk/ppa [11:45] not sure if it makes sense to get an FFE for it though [11:45] probably not [11:45] Riddell: where? [11:46] yofel: you people didn't drop libqtweetlib-dev and libjreen-dev? [11:47] murthy: where? [11:48] Riddell: I finished and submitted the changes in my branch and asked apachelogger to merge it [11:48] yofel: give me the tomahawk ppa [11:49] xnox: where what? [11:49] apachelogger: shadeslayer did you guys change anything in tomahawk [11:50] Riddell: " I see sabdfl has weighed in now" [11:52] xnox: oh, on planet [11:52] http://www.markshuttleworth.com/ [11:53] hello world :D [11:55] Hey all [11:57] Hiyas Riddel [11:57] s/Riddel/Riddell/ [11:57] smartboyhw meant: "Hiyas Riddell" [11:58] tab completion is your friend :) [11:58] Riddell do you have tab on a Android smartphone with only ARMv6? [11:59] murthy: not me [11:59] shadeslayer: ok [11:59] BluesKaj: hi [12:01] hi murthy [12:02] Hmm http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1228 [12:03] well, he probably waited until everyone calmed down again a bit [12:04] Riddell: yeah, my planet feed updater is slow. [12:04] Turbulance, turbulance everywhere [12:05] Hopefully, it will be temporary [12:06] murthy: how give you, it's ppa:tomahawk/ppa [12:07] (in case you don't know yet, that URL means: ppa:/ and easy to translate to the launchpad webpage) [12:07] yofel: oh its in tomahawk's ppa, apachelogger is part of the tomahawk dev? [12:08] not really, that's just the launchpad team, which he *is* a member of [12:09] yofel: oh [12:12] !libqtweetlib-dev [12:12] Sorry, I don't know anything about libqtweetlib-dev [12:12] smartboyhw: how's this? http://blogs.kde.org/2013/03/07/ubuntu-many-communities [12:12] murthy: do you have changes to tokamuk packaging I should review? [12:13] murthy: ubottu only knows about the archive, you should look in https://launchpad.net/~tomahawk/+archive/ppa/+packages [12:13] Riddell: i think no, my last change was reviewed and its in tomahawk ppa [12:14] those packages are only syntactically correct though [12:14] yofel: launchpad can find the libqtweetlib-dev [12:14] murthy: is it in a state to upload before feature freeze this evening? [12:14] Riddell: ya without two optional features [12:15] Riddell: which i am trying to package [12:16] murthy: as I said, ubottu only knows about the archive, not PPA's [12:16] Riddell : :-D good [12:17] yofel: so if launchpad knows the package name , does that mean that the package is somewhere? [12:19] murthy: you did not look at the ppa page, did you? [12:19] yofel: no [12:19] ... [12:19] yofel: looking now [12:20] yofel: nice [12:20] yofel: you packaged it [12:20] yeah, the package is sloppy done though [12:22] yofel: so qtweetlib will be v0.5.0 in raring? [12:23] check if there's something newer [12:24] yofel: https://github.com/minimoog/QTweetLib#readme [12:27] seems like 0.5 is the last tag, so I guess that's newest [12:30] yofel: in that case we can just refresh it? [12:30] so no rolling releases? [12:30] Mamarok: really? [12:30] well, if I read shuttleworth's blog it says more or less that [12:30] Mamarok: gimme the link [12:30] I guess he is trying to repair some dammaghe now [12:31] murthy: see above, Riddell already posted it [12:31] Mamarok: very much needed now [12:31] Mamarok: this one ? http://blogs.kde.org/2013/03/07/ubuntu-many-communities [12:32] murthy: markshuttleworth.com [12:32] Mamarok: who knows, all in the air [12:36] Riddell: I think he is trying to do damage control most of all, for fear that more people leave [12:37] but anyway, Kubuntu is already almost a rolling release as we publish upstream hen it comes out in the PPAs [12:37] and there are enough PPAs out there so everybody can have their machines running a "rolling distro" since ages [12:54] yofel: time left before freeze ? [12:56] apachelogger: what version of qtweetlib did latest version of tomahawk use? [12:59] murthy: I'll not call freeze for another 8 hours or so [12:59] Riddell: nice [13:03] Riddell: I am trying to package qtweetlib, which is an optional package for tomahawk. the current version in tomahawk's ppa is 0.5.0 and i don't know how they got the version number. I like to know what version of qtweetlib the devs used so that i can package that version. I am trying to build from master for the mean time [13:04] Riddell: I like to know what version of qtweetlib the devs used *in tomahawk v0.6.0* so that i can package that version [13:06] murthy: probably this https://github.com/minimoog/QTweetLib/archive/0.5.zip [13:07] murthy: github lets you just download a zip of a tag so a few projects now just tag and leave it at that [13:07] https://github.com/minimoog/QTweetLib/tree/0.5 [13:08] Riddell: i didn't see the tag link on the right [13:09] Riddell: ok i will use the 0.5 version [13:16] * smartboyhw is scrollimg through the Canonical jobs list (LOL) [13:16] smartboyhw: anything good? [13:17] Riddell: Finding:-P [13:18] Xa [13:18] Damn all the QA jobs is office-based in Taipel [13:18] s/Taipel/Taipei/ [13:18] smartboyhw meant: "Damn all the QA jobs is office-based in Taipei" [13:19] Riddell: ^ [13:20] murthy: I'm currently trying to remember myself where that orig.tar is from [13:20] yofel: http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-sc-4.10.1 [13:20] murthy: but current tomahawk in the PPA uses that version of qtweetlib [13:20] \o/ [13:21] yofel: ya its 0.5.0 [13:21] \o/ [13:21] probably I took and auto-generated tar from github from the tag [13:21] *an [13:21] as I can't find a website for it [13:22] murthy: 0.5 [13:23] apachelogger: ping [13:24] yofel: thats right 0.5-0 [13:25] Riddell: Basically you are the one still mainly posting on blogs.kde.org it seems [13:26] sheytan: hm? [13:27] uh oh, my blog to clairy my other blog has got Mark replying now, ho hum [13:27] apachelogger: got my email? [13:27] Riddell: replying where? [13:27] Riddell lol [13:27] sheytan: it would appear not [13:27] shadeslayer: planet.u [13:28] Riddell congrats [13:28] ah [13:28] mm [13:29] apachelogger: do you have email address that can get files more than 10mb? [13:29] Riddell turns out for one thing: This week isn't a good time to do blogging. [13:30] sheytan: don't think so [13:30] apachelogger: nvm, will send you a link [13:30] I do not like people sending me thousands of megabytes to make my kmail eat all the bandwith there is :S [13:30] lol [13:31] apachelogger: it's 10.4 mb ;) [13:32] sheytan: I get some 100 mails per day, imagine only 1% being 10mb for 1 week... [13:33] sheytan: I find when I annoy apachelogger that offers of hugs and beer work best [13:33] * yofel sheytan should apply for membership so he gets people.ubuntu.com webspace [13:34] Damn I should use it and I didn't (LOL) [13:34] sheytan: membership meeting on sunday would fix it indeed [13:35] we have a membership meeting on sunday? [13:35] Riddell: Silly question: How many times have you hugged Daniel Holbach? (LOL) [13:36] apachelogger: Look at channel topic [13:37] I thought you voted for it. [13:37] smartboyhw: too many to count [13:37] Riddell LOL [13:38] * smartboyhw hugs Riddell [13:40] smartboyhw: From my IRC logs, dholbach has hugged 561 times [13:40] :O [13:41] dholbach has a surplus of hugs [13:41] apachelogger: http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/07/test2.png [13:41] shadeslayer: pfft... you can never have too many hugs [13:41] apachelogger: or http://www.sendspace.com/file/cwv3uh [13:41] kubotu: karma shadeslayer [13:41] karma for shadeslayer: 21 [13:41] lolwut [13:41] xD [13:41] shadeslayer: ++ [13:41] someone must have cheated [13:42]