[00:17] <brousch> ut oh. Time to kickban greg-g?
[00:17] <greg-g> it's not like you didn't see this coming when I quite the LoCo Council and the Membership Review Board how ever many months ago that was
[00:18] <greg-g> quite? quit
[00:19] <brousch> It's still sad
[00:19] <brousch> Going to Debian?
[00:20] <greg-g> been there for over a year
[00:20] <greg-g> maybe a year, something
[00:21] <brousch> I hope Mir doesn't mess up Kubuntu too much
[00:21] <greg-g> too late
[00:21] <greg-g> the announcement was fucking dumb
[00:22] <greg-g> "hey, we've been talking about this for a while internally, but you know, now we'll tell you while there is already a shit storm out there, you're fucked."
[00:22] <brousch> heh
[00:22] <brousch> There'll always be Debian
[00:23] <greg-g> indeed
[00:26] <jrwren_> thank goodness
[01:27] <snap-l> There's always one shitstorm per cycle
[01:28] <snap-l> so now that we're going rolling release, maybe it'll be continual shitstorm
[01:32] <rick_h_droid> evening
[01:32] <rick_h_droid> woot shitstorm
[01:36] <jjesse-home> evening
[01:36] <jjesse-home> brousch: it looks like kubuntu will stay the same for now
[01:36] <jjesse-home> and won't worry about adapting mir
[01:36] <jjesse-home> somehow
[02:06] <snap-l> greg-g: So will you still be around for Ubuntu stuff, or is that part of the relationship?
[02:12] <widox> mathomastech: hola
[02:13] <mathomastech> widox: Hows is going.
[02:14] <ColonelPanic001> hi
[02:17] <rick_h_droid> howdy CHC
[02:17] <Blazeix> hey
[02:18] <snap-l> Howdy.
[02:44] <snap-l> Man, this phone is nice for tethering. :)
[02:44] <rick_h_droid> sweet
[03:21] <snap-l> rick_h_: We got lucky, and got the room this week
[05:01] <greg-g> snap-l: I'll still be in #ubuntu-us-mi, if that's what you mean :)
[05:42] <snap-l> http://decafbad.net/2013/03/07/just-because-youre-grinding-the-organ-doesnt-mean-i-have-to-dance/
[05:42] <snap-l> greg-g: ^^
[12:00] <snap-l> I wish Elite Keyboards would get a real shipper.
[12:00] <snap-l> Replacement is coming on Monday
[12:00] <snap-l> Original estimate was Friday
[13:10] <snap-l> Good morning
[13:56] <rick_h_> snap-l: woto on getting the CHC room
[13:56] <rick_h_> I don't get this though. Rolling releases was brought up as a topic at the last UDS
[13:58] <snap-l> rick_h_: It's a culmination of things, not just rolling releases
[13:58] <snap-l> the abbreviated online-only UDS
[13:58] <snap-l> announced one week before the event
[13:59] <rick_h_> yea, I guess that one is the big one but funny since it only really effects a small number of people
[13:59] <snap-l> the transition to Mir, Unity moving to QT
[13:59] <rick_h_> but yea, nvm, I was thinking of rolling and Mir and forgot that
[13:59] <jjesse> are you saying the move to a rolling release only affects a small number of people?
[14:00] <snap-l> jjesse: I think he meant UDS
[14:00] <jjesse> oh
[14:02] <snap-l> I think the bigger problem is people are getting tired of the community being the last to know anything, and being told to accept it, or you're just whining
[14:03] <snap-l> Changing focus, changing direction
[14:03] <rick_h_> but not all this is last to know is my point.
[14:04] <snap-l> I don't have a problem with Canonical taking a leadership role, frankly. I have a problem with the implicit "this is where we're going, now be a good little community and keep dancing" notion
[14:07] <snap-l> I've already added a few agenda items for the next meeting regarding being more honest with ourselves and our participation
[14:07] <snap-l> http://loco.ubuntu.com/meetings/ubuntu-michigan/514/detail/
[14:07] <jjesse> +1 to what you just said snap-l
[14:07] <snap-l> I think it's time to stop putting on a facade of participation
[14:07] <shakes808> Good morning all
[14:07] <snap-l> Hey shakes808
[14:08] <shakes808> Long time lol
[14:08] <snap-l> Ended up getting the expansion for Thunderstone: Advance (Caverns of Bane)
[14:08] <shakes808> Nice
[14:08] <snap-l> That and the GURPS book I had in my hand.
[14:09] <shakes808> I was looking at that
[14:09] <shakes808> looks interesting
[14:09] <snap-l> Which, Thunderstone or GURPS?
[14:09] <shakes808> Thunderstone
[14:09] <snap-l> Yeah, it's a deck-builder with a pretty strong theme.
[14:09] <shakes808> what is GURPS
[14:09] <snap-l> Generic Universal Role Playing System
[14:09] <shakes808> Thunderstone similar to MtG?
[14:10] <snap-l> It's a one-size-fits-most RPG
[14:10] <shakes808> GURPS better than D&D?
[14:10] <snap-l> Different goals
[14:10] <shakes808> or Pathfinder?
[14:10] <snap-l> I haven't played MtG, but it's not randomized. Every set has the same cards
[14:11] <snap-l> GURPS has differnt goals than D&D and Pathfinder. It's more about being realistic and making it easier to convert other source material into a GURPS system
[14:11] <snap-l> there's literally a rule for most things, and the implicit permission that you don't have to use them all
[14:11] <snap-l> s/implicit/explicit
[14:12] <snap-l> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/
[14:12] <snap-l> GURPS has a TON of sourcebooks as well
[14:13] <snap-l> and great support
[14:26] <shakes808> Would you be willing to learn me :D
[14:28] <snap-l> GURPS or Thunderstone?
[14:28] <snap-l> Thunderstone would be an easier learning. ;)
[14:49] <shakes808> Whichever. I like to play games :D
[14:50] <shakes808> I am up at that store about once a week and one in downtown Utica about 1-2 times a week lol
[14:50] <snap-l> Wow
[14:50] <snap-l> I live by GOB, but I'm usually there 1-2 a month
[14:50] <snap-l> trying to cut back. :)
[14:50] <shakes808> haha
[14:51] <snap-l> Are you coming to Penguicon?
[14:51] <snap-l> They have a whole gaming rea
[14:51] <snap-l> area,even
[14:51] <shakes808> ... when is it
[14:52] <snap-l> http://2013.penguicon.org/
[14:52] <snap-l> end of April
[14:53] <shakes808> will have to look at it later. Works internets are running like turtles
[14:53] <shakes808> :-\
[14:53] <snap-l> No worries
[15:06] <jrwren> good morning.
[15:07] <jrwren> i just read planet.
[15:07] <jrwren> its very sad.
[15:09] <rick_h_> jrwren: morning
[15:09] <dzho> 2004-2013 RIP Ubuntu release cycle http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2004-December/010723.html
[15:12] <rick_h_> it's not rip, LTS every two years. Same as has always been. Just people got relying on releases in between to be so rock solid when they were never meant to be
[15:12] <jrwren> rick_h_: bullshit.
[15:12] <rick_h_> the two year gap is where things like unity come out to grow, and now you don't have to wait 6mo for the updated unity to suck less
[15:12] <jrwren> they were always meant to be rock solid. they simply were not meant ot be long term supported.
[15:13] <rick_h_> jrwren: the first release after LTS was always the place where anything risky came out to be bleeding edge and suffered for 6mo
[15:13] <dzho> > Same as has always been.
[15:13] <dzho> this is hilarious.
[15:13] <jrwren> yes and it was never the goal to ship unstable.
[15:13] <rick_h_> and it's not hte goal now :)
[15:13] <dzho> it wasn't always that way--the 2 yr LTS cycle came later.
[15:13] <rick_h_> debian testing isn't meant to be unstable
[15:13] <jrwren> anyway, i'm not lamenting the end of the release cycle. the community people leaving is what is very sad.
[15:13] <dzho> at first, there was only the 6 month cycle.
[15:14] <rick_h_> jrwren: yea, definitely.
[15:14] <dzho> only several releases into that cycle did they announce the 2-year LTS cycle
[15:14] <rick_h_> but the rolling release is nothing to get up about imo. I complete agree on many of the other points
[15:14] <dzho> and then, only after several LTS cycles did they extend the support period.
[15:15] <rick_h_> dzho: right, but you're talking about software in a multi-year scale
[15:15] <dzho> yes, so?
[15:15] <rick_h_> of course it's just been a few. A lot happens in a year/two in software
[15:15] <rick_h_> "only after several LTS cycles" reads "only after our 4yr old project..."
[15:16] <dzho> my point is that, if you have some memory or knowledge of the history of this stuff, it all looks sort of ephemeral, and yes, getting worked up about it, either in terms of reacting against change, or apologizing for it, seems, well . . . uninformed.
[15:16] <jrwren> dzho: i agree.
[15:17] <dzho> I think what it represents is that Canonical and Ubuntu have both gotten big enough to develop managerial bureaucracy of the kind that fucks with things to justify themselves.
[15:18] <dzho> I am probably projecting more than a little bit from my own situation.
[15:31] <snap-l> I think a major part of this is how handset development is more closed than desktop development. Desktops are a utility now.
[15:32] <snap-l> And handsets have carriers that have to be involved because of government oversight (at least in the US)
[15:33] <snap-l> But I also think Canonical has taken the community for granted, and we're now seeing some more heated backlash.
[15:35] <rick_h_> annoucement != release. Community is being asked to get involved once it's been decided to do it and before it's released.
[15:37] <snap-l> This isn't just the rolling release stuff
[15:37] <snap-l> It's all of the other directional changes that have come out
[15:38] <rick_h_> I know, but hte phones aren't out yet, mir isn't running the world yet.
[15:38] <rick_h_> canonical has come out and said we've got some work going on this...bring the community into it. Ubuntu wasn't first built via a community meeting. The community failed to bring Ubuntu to the world before
[15:38] <rick_h_> only when someone got a set of people in a room to build a 0.1 did it come to be
[15:39] <rick_h_> then the community got involved and helped along side for the next 7 years
[15:39] <snap-l> Yes, and now the community is being told to sit quietly and awit further orders.
[15:39] <rick_h_> honestly, of the reaction is pretty darn blind.
[15:39] <rick_h_> snap-l: how so?
[15:40] <rick_h_> I'm missing a single thing that's come across in that way
[15:40] <rick_h_> the cancel of UDS early is the only egregious thing, but even that's not sit down and wait for orders
[15:40] <rick_h_> well, not early, but so short of time
[15:40] <snap-l> The change for Unity to Qt
[15:40] <snap-l> The change from X server to Mir
[15:41] <snap-l> They may be necessary changes, no doubt
[15:41] <rick_h_> ok, so the announcement is up, but ubuntu doesn't ship on Mir today. It's just a new project and the community can now get involved.
[15:41] <rick_h_> and the community is encouraged to get involved
[15:42] <rick_h_> but wtf does the community want? Canonical sees the need for code to get written and starts it. Then asks others to get invovled. I did the same thing with bookie
[15:42] <rick_h_> "here's my new project that fits my needs, anyone else want to hack on what I've got going?"
[15:43] <snap-l> The major problem is the community isn't as empowered as it thinks it is
[15:43] <rick_h_> it never ever is. I can reject any patch to bookie I want to
[15:43] <rick_h_> I've done it actually. There's a MP that's been idle forever because it's not a change I want
[15:44] <snap-l> It's the realization that Canonical runs the show, and the community can either follow, or go away.
[15:44] <rick_h_> fortunately we've had discussions, etc
[15:44] <rick_h_> that's beyond over simplifying
[15:44] <snap-l> right, it's more nuanced than that
[15:44] <rick_h_> find me a case where someone in the community was shoo'd away like that and I'll take back what I say
[15:44] <jjesse> rick_h_,  i think the issue is "hey we are going to go w/ waylaid and its going to be awesome" and then all of the sudden we created this cool stuff
[15:45] <rick_h_> jjesse: but that's not how it happened at all and it's revisionist to say. "Hey, we're doing cool stuff that X wasn't built to handle, I think we should look to the future and this wayland thing appears to be it. Let's set out to check it out"
[15:45] <rick_h_> then the real world happened and wayland isn't going to be able to do what was needed that X can't do either...so we started a new project. Come check it out and get involved
[15:46] <rick_h_> it's just like me saying "I'm on delicious, I think we should check out pinboard...but after looking it won't work so here's my new project bookie"
[15:46] <snap-l> rick_h_: And folks found out about after the direction was chosen
[15:47] <rick_h_> snap-l: right, because I wasn't going to sit down and ask if anyone wants another bookmark app before I wrote any bookie. I decided I wanted one so I started it.
[15:47] <jjesse> but by you creating bookie it doesn't kill or hurt derivatives as much as mir does
[15:47] <rick_h_> it's not like it hurts people using X, or wayland, or anything else.
[15:47] <jjesse> for example:  KDE and KWin won't support or work w/ Mir
[15:47] <dzho> http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-bicycles
[15:47] <jjesse> so buy choosing Mir you get rid of kubuntu
[15:47] <rick_h_> jjesse: how so? ok...so they can run on X like they do today...or update to work with Mir, or update to work on wayland
[15:47] <jjesse> so KDE already works on Wayland
[15:47] <rick_h_> it's like not X won't compile on ubuntu any more
[15:48] <rick_h_> jjesse: great, then kubuntu can ship with wayland packages
[15:48] <jjesse> but from discussion on #kubuntu-devel it looks like there were be things that Mir will do
[15:48] <rick_h_> I don't understand wtf
[15:48] <snap-l> rick_h_: You created Bookie to scratch your itch for a bookmarking application. That's different from creating a new stack for video
[15:48] <dzho> you know, if I fault Canonical for anything, I fault it for buying into the "let's manipulate the consumer with marketing" approach.
[15:48] <rick_h_> snap-l: I don't think so. It's just a larger itch for a company vs my own personal itch. It's the same premise
[15:48] <dzho> but more so, I fault bandwagon jumpers for hopping on it over the years as the next cool thing.
[15:48] <jjesse> i think Elizabeth raised a bigger issue when she wrote about what is the reason for the community council then
[15:49] <rick_h_> meh, forget 'cool'. Just use what works.
[15:49] <dzho> and now that it isn't the cool thing anymore, it's like everyone is waking up to a hangover and looking at who they're in bed with and  . . . reconsidering their earlier, intoxicated exuberance.
[15:49] <snap-l> jjesse: Honestly, I think the CC really lost it's way with the loco approval process
[15:49]  * rick_h_ goes to look for her post
[15:49] <dzho> sometimes that grows into something more substantial, sometimes it's "aaaaaaaaaaaa, what have I done"
[15:50] <jjesse> snap-l, i think the community council has been a rubber stamp for things for a long time
[15:50] <jjesse> Canonical makes a decsision, Community Council rubber stamps idea and community approves it
[15:50] <dzho> yeah, the whole "community" thing has been a facade all along.
[15:51] <dzho> canonical is a company, full stop.
[15:51] <rick_h_> bah, rolling release was a session at the last UDS. I sat in on it.
[15:51] <jjesse> rick_h_, i don't think the issue is rolling release
[15:51] <dzho> it has employees, it has customers, and then it has this ill-defined set of people who don't pay for the product, and don't get paid by the company.
[15:51] <dzho> and for lack of a better term, that gets called "the community".
[15:51] <snap-l> and the main problem the community is realizing is the meritocracy doesn't extend past the community boundaries.
[15:52] <rick_h_> A rolling release proposal throws into question all the release-dependent work I have on my plate and whether I should be continuing that, like helping the docs team with their onboarding process and working with translations teams to continue their work.
[15:52] <rick_h_> that's her quote. Now why does a rolling release mean that work done on translations/etc are no longer of value?
[15:52] <dzho> I like Zooko's attitude towards this all--it would go a long way toward clarifying the relative position of various "stakeholders".
[15:53] <snap-l> rick_h_: I don't understand that line of thinking
[15:53] <rick_h_> if you were working on X for 13.04, a rolling release doesn't kill that at all?
[15:53] <rick_h_> just keep working on it. It'll get released to users
[15:53] <dzho> "just keeping working on it"
[15:53] <rick_h_> and guess what...the work done during the month after that will also get released to users...in 13.05
[15:53] <dzho> all your free time are belong to us
[15:53] <snap-l> I can see where people would get upset with writing magazine articles about what's new with 13.04 since those have a few month lead-time
[15:53] <rick_h_> dzho: no, this is stuff already being done
[15:53] <rick_h_> this isn't 'all your free time' and that's beyond unfair
[15:53] <dzho> the point about release targets is that it allows people to budget their time
[15:53] <snap-l> it's like my Squeezebox article landing in LJ right before Logitech cancels the whole line
[15:54] <rick_h_> dzho: sure, so keep doing that. It's not like you have to get something done each month.
[15:54] <dzho> if it's "work on it all the time always" then that ability to budget your time disappears.
[15:54] <rick_h_> when you get something done it goes before users
[15:54] <rick_h_> if you don't get something done it doesn't get released...how is that any different?
[15:54] <snap-l> rick_h_: Ah, but there's the rub; the whole "approval" and "membership" cycles that say you do have to show activity
[15:54] <dzho> rick_h_: maybe you're not event driven.  Many people are.  I am.
[15:55] <rick_h_> snap-l: yea, over time. It's not like you come up for approval every 6mo with each release
[15:55] <rick_h_> dzho: fine, then event driven to LTS
[15:55] <snap-l> which are now outmoded because there's no more resources to compete against
[15:55] <dzho> rick_h_: -us-ny has done community events
[15:55] <dzho> they have usually been scheduled around releases
[15:55] <dzho> releases give a focus to that planning for people who have other things to do with their time.
[15:55] <rick_h_> so because there's no longer a gun over your head to complete something before **.10 it's a bad decision to do it?
[15:56] <dzho> if planning for an ubuntu event is something that just could be done any old time, guess what?
[15:56] <dzho> it isn't going to get done.  ever.
[15:56] <snap-l> dzho: Bull
[15:56] <rick_h_> after the disaster of unity at first I'd think people would be all over this to get a nice continiously updating unity...but it's now "you don't give me a deadline so $#@$#@ off"
[15:56] <dzho> because the other event-driven things that volunteers have to do will always supercede it
[15:56] <snap-l> dzho: I'm thinking of organizing a Community Service day in the near future
[15:56] <snap-l> not release driven at all
[15:57] <snap-l> Unity in 11.04 was rushed. I wish they had taken more time with it
[15:57] <snap-l> 11.10 was a clusterbleep as well because of the release cycle
[15:57] <rick_h_> snap-l: right, but we're OSS...release early/often and get better.
[15:58] <snap-l> I'm all for the rolling release if it gives people time to get things stable
[15:58] <rick_h_> if you think it would have been better if it was just released 6mo later I think you're white washing the issue a bit too much
[15:58] <snap-l> No, I don't.
[15:59] <snap-l> and I think the quality improvements for 12.04 were sorely needed
[15:59] <snap-l> and it does provide the infrastructure to get quality baked in to a rolling release process
[15:59] <rick_h_> before ubuntu a ton of people ran debian testing without any of these issues tossed about.
[16:00] <rick_h_> so I go back to the only thing Canonical has done *wrong* is announcing no UDS too close to the event.
[16:00] <snap-l> You have two different sets of needs
[16:00] <snap-l> stable vs new
[16:00] <rick_h_> and LTS has been the pillar of stable since it first came to be
[16:01] <rick_h_> and allow for more flexibility in the time between
[16:01] <rick_h_> it was why it was created in the first place
[16:01] <snap-l> rick_h_: Agreed, but the way the new stuff was announced is also a point of contention
[16:01] <snap-l> not even counting rolling releases for that, because it was a proposal
[16:02] <snap-l> Like i mentioned in my blogpost:
[16:02] <snap-l> Q: How do you know when the next Ubuntu is close to release?
[16:02] <snap-l> A: When the Canonical vs. the community posts hit Planet Ubuntu.
[16:02] <rick_h_> http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/2012/06/lets-roll-with-1210.html I mean look at that...June of last year
[16:03] <rick_h_> snap-l: yea, but from this channel people are expressing a lot of concerns I'm not understanding. I'm just trying to understand.
[16:03] <rick_h_> jjesse: is worried that kubuntu runs on wayland but Unity won't. I don't get why that effects kubuntu, however I admit I'm not in that community/discussion so maybe I miss a point there.
[16:03] <snap-l> rick_h_: From a technical perspective there's no problem
[16:04] <rick_h_> then I was pointed to eliz's blog post about community/rolling release.
[16:04] <snap-l> These are good decisions. Probably even important decisions.
[16:04] <snap-l> It's just the relationship with the community is changing
[16:04] <rick_h_> so what has got a bug up everyone's behind? what am I not seeing. And I hope that everyone understands that this is nothing at all to do with my work/etc.
[16:05] <snap-l> It's no longer about empowered members having a say in the technical direction, it's about being citizens in the fields.
[16:05] <snap-l> I keep trying not to say serfdom, but it's becoming a better word the more I try not to use it
[16:05] <rick_h_> snap-l: yea, I guess I've never cared for that 'relationship with the community'. wtf does that mean? If you like doing documentation and like ubuntu then you can still write documentation in ubuntu. If you like working on app X, nothing is preventing you from contributing
[16:06] <rick_h_> snap-l: come on, what would you have said if someone from Canonical sat down and said "we're thinking of writing our own display layer...what do you think?"
[16:06] <snap-l> I would have thought they were nuts
[16:06] <rick_h_> lol
[16:06] <snap-l> First time I saw it, I thought they were nuts
[16:06] <snap-l> but they made the case
[16:07] <snap-l> Again, nothing technically wrong with the decision
[16:07] <snap-l> but the presentation (par usual) leaves a lot to be desired.
[16:08] <rick_h_> what is the ideal presenation?
[16:08] <snap-l> It's like the Banshee / Amazon kerfluffle
[16:08] <snap-l> "Hey, we're looking to replace X and Wayland with something cooler."
[16:08] <rick_h_> this is nothing like that. No one took someone else's project and swapped out a 'for pay' code
[16:09] <snap-l> rick_h_: The presentation is similar. The "we've made a decision, here's how it'll play out."
[16:09] <rick_h_> if anything you can compare it against the rhythmbox/banshee/rhythmbox crap and that was community done at a UDS
[16:10] <rick_h_> snap-l: it's BS. If wayland worked out it'd be "here's wayland running unity...here's how it works out"
[16:10] <snap-l> rick_h_: So what needs to happen is a redefinition of roles
[16:10] <snap-l> That's all
[16:10] <rick_h_> what role? what community role was "approver of all changes to apps Ubuntu is built with"?
[16:10] <snap-l> The role that people thought they had in this project to drive technical change
[16:10] <brousch> The Mir issue is that Canonical will (likely) only ensure that Unity works on it, leaving Gnobuntu (or whatever), Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, etc to try to hack their own support for it before Canonical drops Xorg
[16:11] <rick_h_> "Canonical announced ubuntu will ship with a clipboard manager that they built."
[16:11] <snap-l> brousch: We don't know that. That's FUD
[16:11] <rick_h_> "NOOOOOO! No one asked me if I wanted that clipboard manager!!!!"
[16:11] <brousch> snap-l: FUD or not, rick_h_ asked what the griping was about
[16:11] <rick_h_> brousch: sorry, which of those use unity now?
[16:11] <brousch> That's the griping I've seen
[16:11] <rick_h_> all of those run on a different WM on top of code that works today
[16:12] <rick_h_> none of that code is going away
[16:12] <brousch> So they're not dropping Xorg in 2014 or whatever?
[16:12] <rick_h_> who cares...apt-get install xorg
[16:13] <brousch> That assumes someone cares and feeds for xorg enough for that to work
[16:13] <rick_h_> it's not like someone has said that only the following packages will be allowed to be installed on Ubuntu systems ...
[16:13] <brousch> Which Canonical does now
[16:13] <rick_h_> brousch: right, so there you go. Room for community to get involved to work on software they care about. :)
[16:14] <rick_h_> if Ubuntu stopped shipping libreoffice because wtf...we all use google docs anyway.
[16:14] <rick_h_> doesn't mean you can't apt-get install it, use it, hack on it, etc
[16:14] <brousch> Right, but now communities have to support some big nasty thing that they didn't used to have to
[16:15] <rick_h_> brousch: then don't support it. I mean I'm sorry if I used to support imports from delicious and now I don't. but bookie can't always promise to do all things for all people all the time regardless of what I want to support/use
[16:15] <rick_h_> and if someone wants to send a patch to make those imports work then by all means they can. but I'm sick of updating that myself every 2mo when they change how it works.
[16:16] <brousch> You are right, but that attitude is what rubs some people the wrong way
[16:19] <snap-l> Again, it's not the technical direction that rubs me the wrong way
[16:22] <snap-l> Frankly I couldn't care less how Ubuntu gets to the end goal, as long as it's not horribly broken along the way
[16:24] <snap-l> but what gets to me is the notion that the community believed they had a say in the development of Ubuntu, and that belief is unfounded.
[16:25] <rick_h_> bull...$#@$@#
[16:25] <rick_h_> if you want to be involved in the development it's not like mir isn't accepting patches
[16:26] <rick_h_> it's not like people wanting to write apps can't write apps, or write other distros can't...
[16:26] <rick_h_> I guess if you were writing a display manager for ubuntu and found out mir was chosen you're hosed and sucks to be you
[16:26] <rick_h_> see the guy that wrote a juju gui
[16:28] <rick_h_> so I guess that's the thing. What development can a person no longer be involved with as a member of the community? What door is now closed that was previously open?
[16:28] <snap-l> And that's the problem right there. The community is realizing we're just cogs in the machine.
[16:28] <snap-l> Nothing has changed, it's just clarified.
[16:29] <rick_h_> that's so deprecating for no reason...
[16:29] <rick_h_> 'just cogs in the machine' says who? If you like working on something...you work on it. No one has demeaned or talked down on that contribution
[16:30] <snap-l> How many things have you done for Ubuntu because of reputation rather than desire?
[16:30] <snap-l> "Gotta get our karma up. Gotta show activity or we won't get approved"
[16:30] <rick_h_> never
[16:31] <snap-l> You're a better man than I
[16:31] <rick_h_> and fine, if you want to show activity, what activity is no longer approved of?
[16:31] <snap-l> None, but I'm redefining activity
[16:31] <snap-l> ie: discussing how CHC shouldn't be called UH:CHC
[16:31] <rick_h_> you go from 'community believed they had a say in the development of Ubuntu' to '"Gotta get our karma up. Gotta show activity or we won't get approved"'
[16:32] <snap-l> Ceasing striving for reapproval
[16:32] <snap-l> Not stressing over reapproval
[16:33] <snap-l> Change in contribution to Ubuntu: 0
[16:33] <snap-l> change in how I reframe my work: +1
[16:33] <snap-l> Change in clearing the decks to make new things happen that I actually care about in the Ubuntu sphere: Perhaps
[16:34] <snap-l> TBD
[16:34] <rick_h_> meh, I thought we were all for the changes re: approval/etc.
[16:34] <snap-l> I am, totally
[16:34] <snap-l> I think that's part of the reason the community council is taking a personal hit
[16:34] <snap-l> because that was their biggest role
[16:35] <snap-l> or at least their most visible role
[16:35] <rick_h_> yea, I mean don't care about that tbh. I was curious why people here in irc I know/care about were upset and trying to understand.
[16:35] <snap-l> When Jono mentioned he'd had a change of heart over the approved / unapproved status, Laura was crestfallen
[16:36] <rick_h_> I mean even greg-g seemed to agree that not dealing with approvals would be a plus for the council and he's leaving the community
[16:36] <snap-l> I'm just wanting people to be honest with themselves about what their roles and responsibilities are
[16:37] <snap-l> We need clarification
[16:37] <snap-l> Do I care that people think they don't have a role in the technical leadership of Ubuntu? Not particularly
[16:38] <rick_h_> ok, guess I should get some owrk done. Coming up on 2hrs of side tracking :)
[16:38] <snap-l> I've learned through several iterations it's not the case. :)
[16:38] <snap-l> rick_h_: But INTERNET DRAMA!
[16:38] <rick_h_> I do want to understand why people are upset though. I hope I don't come across as demeaning or even as canonical lapdog/etc. I really don't understand.
[16:38] <greg-g> rick_h_: lip service could be my two word summary of how I feel.
[16:38] <rick_h_> but maybe I'm too much of a technical focus to get the 'people' side or something
[16:38] <snap-l> Hell, I've even thought of registering a new domain for lococast: rickandcraigtalkaboutstuff
[16:39] <rick_h_> lip service to what?
[16:39] <greg-g> heh
[16:39] <rick_h_> greg-g: ^
[16:39] <greg-g> lip service from canonical to the community
[16:39] <rick_h_> greg-g: but what has been taken from the community? Maybe you can explain it to me. What is no longer in the community domain that has been?
[16:40] <greg-g> we just get told what to do/think instead of being seen as equals, Mark has said it himself regarding Mir/Touch/etc, basically (paraphrasing) "volunteers can't really contribute because unless you're full time on it you can't keep up"
[16:40] <rick_h_> Ubuntu from day one has never been a pure community project like debian, nor meant to be.
[16:40] <snap-l> greg-g: http://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/19ueay/craig_maloney_just_because_youre_grinding_the/
[16:41] <rick_h_> greg-g: but unity is open source, patches are welcome, I've not followed all the code but not really heard of people's owrk being rejected if that's what they chose to participate in
[16:41] <greg-g> there was more community feedback and discussoin, the community was seen as an equal when debating things, with the final decision still resting at Canonical/Mark, but the debates still happened
[16:41] <rick_h_> mir just got announced, it's GPL, what's closed about that?
[16:41] <greg-g> now, we don't get those debates, and, if we do have the debates, we're violating the CoC
[16:41] <greg-g> rick_h_: you're not listening :)
[16:41] <greg-g> I didn't say closed
[16:41] <greg-g> don't make strawmen
[16:42] <greg-g> oh well, there is a reason I disabled comments on that post of mine....
[16:42]  * greg-g goes to work
[16:42] <rick_h_> greg-g: ok, but I'm having a hard time viewing what the community discussion of 'we're thinking of building a display manager' would work in the community?
[16:42] <rick_h_> greg-g: ok, have fun
[16:42] <snap-l> woah
[16:54] <greg-g> snap-l: and dang you, now I have "You can dance if you want to" playing in loop in my head
[16:54] <rick_h_> greg-g: if you get a sec I'd appreciate it if you knew of an example conversation/community interaction you were proud of at the time that doesn't/can't happen today.
[16:55] <rick_h_> greg-g: offline/etc all good.
[17:03] <snap-l> greg-g: You're welcome. :) I added that today.
[17:19] <greg-g> rick_h_: this is for you: http://opensourcebridge.org/proposals/960 :)
[17:24] <snap-l> greg-g: There isn't a big enough blunt in the world for that to make sense
[17:29] <greg-g> hahaha
[17:54] <rick_h_> greg-g: lol
[17:54] <rick_h_> greg-g: I look forward to that video...wonder if it'll be an empty room
[18:04] <mathomastech1> 3 1/2 hours sitting at the car repair place. Only good thing to come out of it so far is a lot of quality web development done.
[18:05] <rick_h_> mathomastech1: doh
[18:13] <snap-l> mathomastech-mob: Ugh
[18:14] <mathomastech-mob> Yeah. I was thinking a simple adjustment or something. Nope. My whole wheel is pretty busted. Need a completely new one.
[18:14] <snap-l> mathomastech-mob: What happened?
[18:14] <snap-l> Pothole?
[18:14] <rick_h_> wheel?
[18:14] <rick_h_> oh, tire wheel, sucky
[18:15] <mathomastech-mob> snap-l: It's actually just wear and tear. That or when I got my tires rotated a month or so ago they didn't tighten some parts all the way.
[18:15] <rick_h_> torque wrench ftw
[18:15] <snap-l> Yeah, I've never been a fan of tire totation
[18:15] <snap-l> or rotation for that matter
[18:15] <mathomastech-mob> snap-l: I was thinking it may have been a pothold, because I did hit one yesterday morning. But I asked and the mechanic said that this was not pothold damage.
[18:17] <mathomastech-mob> rick_h_: Yea, the wheel/rim needs replacing.
[18:17] <mathomastech-mob> Also my front sway bar is way out of alignment, something I already new. And I have no shockz. Also something I already knew. I haven't had shockz on the car for about 3 years, lol
[18:17] <Blazeix> bummer, any idea on how much longer it will take?
[18:18] <mathomastech-mob> Well, they said an hour, about 45 minutes ago. So hopefully not much longer. I am getting really hungry
[18:19] <mathomastech-mob> Kinda depends though. They were waiting on one of the mechanics to get back with the wheel. I don't know if he ever got back though.
[18:19] <brousch> Hm, could there be a link between the lack of shocks and your damaged wheels and sway bar?
[18:20] <mathomastech-mob> No. They are all seperate issues, but all things that have been needing work for many years.
[18:20] <mathomastech-mob> Well, except the tire, thats a recent problem
[18:20] <mathomastech-mob> wheel*
[19:01] <snap-l> Well that was fun
[19:47] <rick_h_> snap-l: wheee!
[19:56] <snap-l> made another blog post on this whole thing
[19:56] <snap-l> http://decafbad.net/2013/03/07/the-ubuntu-community-collaborator-or-contributor/
[19:56] <snap-l> I think that describes the crux of the issue
[19:57] <brousch> Skeumorphic design is dead!
[19:57] <snap-l> Though the first comment there about old hardware getting deprecated is fun
[19:57] <snap-l> brousch: Waht, the paper?
[19:57] <brousch> And the desk
[19:57] <snap-l> If you can come up with a theme that I like for Wordpress, I'll use it. :)
[19:57] <brousch> or is that the floor?
[19:57] <snap-l> That's sort of what my desk looks like
[19:58] <snap-l> Actually, it looked more like my old theme.
[19:58] <snap-l> I got rid of that theme when I got rid of the Apple keyboard
[19:58] <snap-l> and the Razer mouse I never had
[20:36] <brousch> snap-l: Someone put you on Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/LinuxActionShow/comments/19ugu9/q_how_do_you_know_when_the_next_ubuntu_is_close/
[20:38] <snap-l> brousch: Yeah
[21:57] <brousch> Keyboard pr0n for you fetishists http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/13/03/07/212225/cherrys-new-keyboard-switches-emulate-ibm-model-m-feel