[18:01] <mhall119> #startmeeting Ubuntu TV discussion
[18:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Mar  8 18:01:55 2013 UTC.  The chair is mhall119. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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[18:02] <mhall119> hi everybody, who is here for the Ubuntu TV meeting?
[18:02] <jhodapp> mhall119, let's try now :)
[18:03] <YoBoY> hi mhall119, here but just to follow (not participating :p)
[18:03] <pinguy> YoBoY, same here. Would like to see how this is handled
[18:04] <_danialjose> just to watch
[18:04] <mhall119> I'm going to give a few more minutes, I hope some of the TV community guys can make it
[18:04] <jhodapp> hey tgm4883
[18:04] <tgm4883> o/
[18:05] <pinguy> Doesn't seem like much work has been done to Ubuntu TV for awhile now: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntutv-dev-team/ubuntutv/trunk/files
[18:05] <pinguy> Would be nice to see how far it has come
[18:06] <mhall119> ok, I'm going to get started with some of the back story
[18:06] <mhall119> #topic History
[18:06] <tgm4883> do we have more people here than normal?
[18:06] <mhall119> tgm4883: yeah, I put out a call for more discussion
[18:07] <mhall119> so, around this time last year Canonical debuted the Ubuntu TV at CES, and it was a pretty big hit
[18:07] <mhall119> at the time, the TV UI was based on the Unity 2D code
[18:07] <mhall119> which in early 2012 was still actively developed
[18:08] <tgm4883> quick correction, it was uds-P
[18:08] <mhall119> we opened up all of the source code that had been worked on, and recruited interested developers from the community to participate in it's development
[18:08] <mhall119> tgm4883: what was?
[18:08] <tgm4883> mhall119, oh wait, nm, I misread what you said
[18:08] <tgm4883> carry on
[18:08] <mhall119> ok
[18:09] <mhall119> so by this time last year the TV was open and we were getting great contributors like tgm4883 and bobweaver on board
[18:10] <mhall119> then, at UDS-Q, there was a decision made by the Unity team that actively developing 2 separate Unity codebases (2D and 3D) was too much
[18:10] <mhall119> and a big dicussion followed which ultimately resulted in Unity 3D being chosen
[18:11] <mhall119> I wasnt a part of those conversations, so I can't tell you what the arguments were either way
[18:11] <mhall119> so, with Unity 2D no longer being actively developed, we had to shift Ubuntu TV on to Nux and the Compiz plugin that powers Unity 3D
[18:13] <mhall119> and it wasn't long after that when the Canonical engineers who had been working on the multi-media functionality for the TV were also tasked with getting that same multi-media functionality working on the new Phone/Tablet codebase
[18:13] <mhall119> so for several months after we had started the transition to Unity 3D, we didn't have Canonical resources to help
[18:14] <mhall119> and despite a large amount of effort from bobweaver, porting it from Qt (which he was familiar with) to Nux (which he wasn't) was no simple task
[18:14] <mhall119> after months of this, those of us inside Canonical were frustrated that we couldn't contribute, and concerned that our absence was holding back to the community developers
[18:15] <mhall119> so jhodapp and I spent some time gathering up all the internal documentation about design and implementation details that we could, and worked to get approval to open them up to the community
[18:16] <mhall119> at this point, we were pretty much "throwing it over the wall", not because we wanted to, but because if we didn't it wouldn't get over the wall at all
[18:16] <mr_man> what does throwing it over the wall mean ?
[18:17] <mhall119> mr_man: it's a common term for making something open source but not supporting the community around it
[18:17] <mhall119> like Google does with Android, or Sun/Oracle was known to do with their open source projects
[18:17] <mr_man> sounds like the last year
[18:17] <mr_man> cool so Ubuntu is droping the tv ?
[18:17] <pinguy> mr_man, in-house code getting out to the public
[18:17] <mhall119> Now, even though the phone shell was being written in Qt/QML at this time, as far as everybody inside Canonical knew the future was still Unity 3D, and the expectation was that the phone shell would eventually be integrated into Unity 3D as well
[18:18] <mhall119> mr_man: no, this is the back story
[18:18] <mhall119> so for a long time we kept encouraging the community TV hackers to port to Unity 3D, because as far as *we* knew, that was the right direction to take it
[18:18] <mr_man> so you all got community members to do it ?
[18:19] <mhall119> mr_man: yes
[18:19] <mr_man> port to 3d ? that is or are you going to tell the to do that then change your mind 5 times
[18:19] <mr_man> will is on board with this ?
[18:19] <mhall119> and while tgm4883 made good progress on a MythTV lens/scope that didn't depend on the UI toolkit, bobweaver was still struggling to make heads or tails of Nux and Compiz
[18:19]  * tgm4883 encourages mr_man to hold his questions until the end of the history section
[18:19] <mhall119> mr_man: I'm explaining what happened, not what is going to happen
[18:19] <mr_man> sorry
[18:20] <mr_man> I thought that bobweaver quit because of many many reasons
[18:20] <tgm4883> perhaps we should open the second channel for questions?
[18:20] <mhall119> mr_man: I'll get to some of that in a bit
[18:21] <mhall119> finally, as the phone's releasing was approaching, the conversation inside Canonical went back to the Unity 2D vs. Unity 3D debate, and after proving how quickly and efficiently the Unity shell could be done in Qt/QML, the decision was reversed
[18:21] <pinguy> a lack of communication seems to be the problem. You thought Unity 2d was dead so strating working on gettting Ubuntu TV working on Compiz, only to find out that up-stream was now using qt/Unity-2D.
[18:22] <mhall119> which put us in a difficult position, we weren't allowed to talk about the phone before it was announced, but we didn't want to waste developer's time either
[18:22] <mr_man> pinguy:  that is not true pm me if yyou want the truth
[18:23] <mhall119> but we did discretely let bobweaver know that the debate had restarted, and there was a distinct possibility that Unity 2D, or at least a Qt/QML version of Unity, would become the new target
[18:23] <bobweaver> really you did
[18:24] <mhall119> Which brings us to where we are now, we have an old Unity 2D codebase, some regretably wasted time and effort on Unity 3D porting, and a new Qt/QML foundating that we want to converge all of our devices around
[18:25] <mhall119> so, that's the history
[18:25] <mhall119> #topic Future
[18:25] <bobweaver> maybe I should say my side of the history as it was me that wasted 3 months or more of programming
[18:26] <pinguy> bobweaver, I think thats only fair
[18:26] <mhall119> so we wasted a lot of development time, and burned through a non-significant amount of developer good will, but we still want to see an Ubuntu TV, and we still want it to be a community project
[18:26] <mhall119> bobweaver: go ahead
[18:26] <tgm4883> #topic alternate history, community edition
[18:26] <mhall119> #topic more history
[18:27] <mhall119> tgm4883: feel free to add your input as well
[18:27] <bobweaver> what really happened . after the last non virtual uds I was told o make nux I was also told that 3 times before then I was told back to 2d then back to this then back to that. It seems like there needs to be better leadership
[18:27] <bobweaver> so it was a flip flop falure
[18:27] <jhodapp> bobweaver, nobody will argue with that point I think
[18:28] <bobweaver> meaning that I was lead along a fake road
[18:28] <bobweaver> this is no one fault but mine
[18:29] <bobweaver> but for the people in the future I do not want to see them have the same thing happen to them. so in other words you all need better leadership
[18:29] <pinguy> bobweaver, was it ever at the back of your mind this may happen? Qt is really the only way to make apps fully cross platform. Compiz isn't really that great for this. From an outsider looking in. Ubuntu TV always seemed it was being made to work on many devices.
[18:30] <bobweaver> I knew that it was always going to be qt
[18:30] <mhall119> pinguy: sure, he was pushing us to just stick with Qt/QML the whole time
[18:30] <mhall119> he was a constant advocate for it
[18:30] <bobweaver> I fought that for months pinguy  the point is I do not want to see you all have something like this happen to the next bobweaver
[18:30] <mhall119> tgm4883: do you have anything you want to add?
[18:31] <tgm4883> just that I'm available for questions
[18:31] <tgm4883> oh
[18:31] <bobweaver> btw I have ubunntu tv running on my nexus 7
[18:31] <mhall119> really? that's awesome
[18:31] <tgm4883> and that for all the help i've asked for (testing wise), nobody has actually come though
[18:32] <mhall119> are we ready to talk about the future now?
[18:33] <ogra_> bobweaver, how is the signal reception ? :P
[18:33] <bobweaver> listen you all are never going to get any where fighting about the code base. in this world it seems like it is about hardware and that is it. until the right people get the right tools it is not going to work
[18:33] <pinguy> tgm4883, its a shame you didn't have that many testers. You probably could of done with the project being more open
[18:33] <bobweaver> why build something that is for the desktop when it is going on a tv
[18:33] <bobweaver> people have said that on the channel before
[18:33] <tgm4883> pinguy, the stuff I need testing doesn't have anything to do with the ubuntu tv code
[18:33] <mhall119> pinguy: the project was open, tgm4883 and bobweaver are both community contributors
[18:34] <mhall119> alright
[18:34] <tgm4883> so let me add a little here, what I actually am doing
[18:34] <tgm4883> I'm a Mythbuntu developer. What I bring to the table is the Ubuntu TV integration with a MythTV backend
[18:34] <tgm4883> This is done via Unity scopes, so it works on any platform that runs Unity
[18:34] <bobweaver> ogra_:  I am using brodcom java drivers
[18:35] <tgm4883> The requests I've had for testing are 2 things
[18:35] <tgm4883> 1) Testing the scopes. This admittedly is a little more difficult, as it requires you to have a MythTV backend in your environment
[18:35] <tgm4883> 2) Testing of the MythTV backend quick start guide I wrote. This is far easier for people to test, as you can do it in a VM
[18:36] <mhall119> https://docs.google.com/document/d/19knOlqz8cV5_8VQ1tCvEd8tjEk6U50KsSOJCROR60o4/edit?usp=sharing
[18:36] <tgm4883> Ironically, the few people that have tested the scope have given me feedback. The people that said they would test the QSG haven't given me any feedback yet
[18:36] <tgm4883> Comments are open on the QSG, which is where I'm looking for them
[18:37] <mhall119> I'm guilty of that, it's still on my task list, but I've been quite behind lately
[18:37] <bobweaver> tgm4883:  what is QSG?
[18:37] <mhall119> Quick Start Guide
[18:37] <tgm4883> Quick Start Guide
[18:37] <mhall119> the link I pasted above
[18:37] <tgm4883> The link above is the long version, that includes every screen in the backend setup
[18:37] <tgm4883> I would prefer to ship the smaller version, but it skips parts that aren't changed and may be more confusing
[18:38] <tgm4883> Short version https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eGJ8gGtRqFxQ8xVWlR6XgP6FAFJEVZ-Ntq_TT8XhWEs/edit?usp=sharing
[18:38] <bobweaver> tgm4883:  I will read the guide and get back to you
[18:38] <mhall119> tgm4883: bobweaver: I'd like to start talking about where we go from here, since we only have 20 minutes left
[18:38] <tgm4883> ok
[18:38] <tgm4883> mhall119, sounds good
[18:39] <mhall119> #topic Future
[18:39] <mhall119> alright, so now that everybody has the brief history of the TV project, I want to know how we progress from here
[18:39] <mhall119> we still want a TV formfactor of Unity, and we still (miraculously) have community interest in it
[18:40] <bobweaver> if it is going to be part of the phablet then you all should just tell them to do it they wrote the stuff to start with
[18:41] <mhall119> the goal is to have it all in one codebase
[18:41] <mhall119> which we're evidently calling "Unity Next"
[18:41] <bobweaver> I think that they are re-writing libunity no one can do anything till then
[18:41] <mhall119> which will start with the phablet code, and add in desktop and TV formfactors
[18:41] <tgm4883> I think "Unity Next" developers need to develop the interface
[18:41] <bobweaver> that is a HUGE trouble that there not communicating between teams that is why I am out
[18:41] <pinguy> I hate to be the bad guy here, but Ubuntu TV is really only going to work with Ubuntu Touch. In the last 4 months XBMC has really come into its own.
[18:41] <bobweaver> well that and many many other reasons
[18:42] <tgm4883> pinguy, Unity brings more to the table than XBMC
[18:42] <bobweaver> pinguy:  you wath live tv with xbmc ?
[18:42] <pinguy> bobweaver, yes. It was part of the last release
[18:42] <mhall119> tgm4883: the "Unity Next" developers in Canonical have a short window to both polish the phablet UI for potential OEM partners, *and* port the desktop by 13.10 time-frame
[18:42] <bobweaver> also manage all your apps
[18:43] <pinguy> bobweaver, the android version also manages all of your apps
[18:43] <tgm4883> mhall119, it makes more sense for the Unity developers to develop the new layouts
[18:43] <mhall119> if we wait for Canonical developers to port the TV UI, it's going to take a while
[18:43] <jhodapp> bobweaver, that's not true, it's just Qt5 and QML so what exactly do you think you need to wait on from the unity devs?
[18:44] <bobweaver> pinguy:  so then you should use it and stop telling people what they should or should not do. you know that I could have xbmc in the dash right
[18:44] <bobweaver> because there is qtmediahub
[18:44] <mhall119> tgm4883: they will be writing the code to support adding and switching to different formfacts, but I doubt they'll be able to port the TV UI unless we wait unti the end of this year
[18:44] <bobweaver> jhodapp:  they are re-writing unity
[18:44] <bobweaver> libunity I should say
[18:44] <mhall119> and I really don't want to wait another year on this
[18:44] <tgm4883> This is OT, but XBMC doesn't have TV capabilities built in. They farm it out and use PVR backends (such as MythTV)
[18:45] <mhall119> bobweaver: yes, the libunity APIs are going to be changing, but the TV layout and what data it will need shouldn't be
[18:45] <jhodapp> bobweaver, sure, but we have a phablet UI today right? what's the difference between having the TV UI today and getting it working, vs the phablet one that already works?
[18:45] <bobweaver> Umm... that is not possible it listens to libunity it uses nux all of that
[18:46] <tgm4883> Can't we just blow up the tablet interface and use that for TV?
[18:46] <mhall119> bobweaver: the converged codebase will all be on the same libunity API
[18:46] <mhall119> tgm4883: that would be a good place ot start I think
[18:46] <bobweaver> the phablet is not using all the parts of unity also the main thing would be dconf-qt that right there is huge
[18:46] <mhall119> but the tablet is still geared to touch input
[18:46] <jhodapp> tgm4883, yes, I think that's a good place to start too
[18:46] <tgm4883> mhall119, IMHO, the work that we need to do is ensure that you can control the interface via remote control
[18:46] <bobweaver> also qx11info  as you all are making new server one can not do anything that is why I made into standalone app that runs on android
[18:47] <mhall119> ok, things are starting to fall apart into technical implementation here, I'd like to keep this more high-level
[18:47] <tgm4883> well, that and ensure you can use it from 10' away, but I think that is going to deal more with font sizes
[18:47] <bobweaver> mhall119:  you ant tell people to waste there time that is not fair to them
[18:47] <tgm4883> mhall119, +1
[18:47] <bobweaver> bottom line ^^
[18:47] <mhall119> so let's re-cap what we have and what we don't
[18:48] <bobweaver> spinning wheels in the mud just gets you more stuck
[18:48] <mhall119> we have the phablet codebase, we have a design spec for the TV interface, we have some existing Qt4/QML1 code that may or may not be reusable
[18:48] <mhall119> we don't have: Canonical resources devoted exclusively to porting TV to the new codebase
[18:48] <bobweaver> mhall119:  have you looked at the code you can not use it
[18:49] <mhall119> bobweaver: I haven't but I'm not as technically proficient as you when it comes to code
[18:49] <tgm4883> mhall119, perhaps a better angle would be to list all the needs (even stuff currently done), then list what is done
[18:49] <bobweaver> esp because of the things that are happening with the server and libunity you are telling people to waste there time
[18:49] <mhall119> tgm4883: ok
[18:49] <tgm4883> eg. what is needed to ship something the community would deem "Ubuntu TV"
[18:50] <mhall119> * We need the converged Unity foundation to support multiple formfactors (Canonical resources are workign on this, it doesn't exist yet)
[18:50] <bobweaver> libhbris ??
[18:50] <mhall119> * We need a stable set of APIs for building the interface (libunity, indicator services, hud services, etc)
[18:50] <bobweaver> er wrong place so sorry
[18:50] <mhall119> some of that exists, some doesn't
[18:50] <bobweaver> phablet has almost all that ^^
[18:50] <mhall119> Canonical resources have already been allocated to it
[18:51] <mhall119> bobweaver: on the surface yes, I don't know how much is mocked and how much is subject to change
[18:51] <mhall119> at the very least, the phablet's use of libunity is going to change when libunity changes
[18:51] <tgm4883> for lack of a better way to mark those, I'm going to put those as actions
[18:51] <bobweaver> but you all are digging your selfs deeper until the things that I have stated change then nothing can be done. OH HOW I whis that I could have talked about this at UDS
[18:51] <mhall119> tgm4883: good idea
[18:52] <mhall119> #action * We need the converged Unity foundation to support multiple formfactors (Canonical resources are workign on this, it doesn't exist yet)
[18:52] <meetingology> ACTION: * We need the converged Unity foundation to support multiple formfactors (Canonical resources are workign on this, it doesn't exist yet)
[18:52] <mhall119> #action * We need a stable set of APIs for building the interface (libunity, indicator services, hud services, etc) Canonical resources are already allocated to this
[18:52] <meetingology> ACTION: * We need a stable set of APIs for building the interface (libunity, indicator services, hud services, etc) Canonical resources are already allocated to this
[18:52] <bobweaver> you all need to know how this is going to work on mer
[18:52] <bobweaver> Woops I mean mir
[18:53] <tgm4883> IMO, it's way to early to think about mir
[18:53] <mhall119> #action we need to re-create the TV shell layout and components on top of Unity Next
[18:53] <meetingology> ACTION: we need to re-create the TV shell layout and components on top of Unity Next
[18:53] <tgm4883> mhall119, we need remote control functionality of Unity Next
[18:53] <mhall119> bobweaver: that's something that should be done in the common Unity Next code, there shouldn't be anything TV specific about it
[18:53] <jhodapp> tgm4883, agreed
[18:53] <bobweaver> if that is action then you are going to need all the libs that are used some are not open as of yet
[18:54] <tgm4883> mhall119, I'm leaving you to add the actions so we don't duplicate them
[18:54] <mhall119> #action We need Remote control/navigation in the TV shell
[18:54] <meetingology> ACTION: We need Remote control/navigation in the TV shell
[18:54] <bobweaver> mhall119:  what the heck are you talking about
[18:54] <tgm4883> mhall119, we need a TV backend
[18:54] <bobweaver> that is bull
[18:54] <mhall119> *action We need to make sure that all of the libs necessary to write apps and the shell are available and open source
[18:54] <bobweaver> how are you going to handle windowing how are you going to handle spread ect ect
[18:54] <bobweaver> alt+tab so many things
[18:55] <jhodapp> bobweaver, don't get buried in the details for now
[18:55] <mhall119> *action we need to specify a data model for passing TV data between Scopes and the Shell
[18:55] <bobweaver> this was all done on X before
[18:55] <bobweaver> with qx11info
[18:55] <mhall119> #action We need to make sure that all of the libs necessary to write apps and the shell are available and open source
[18:55] <meetingology> ACTION: We need to make sure that all of the libs necessary to write apps and the shell are available and open source
[18:55] <mhall119> #action we need to specify a data model for passing TV data between Scopes and the Shell
[18:55] <meetingology> ACTION: we need to specify a data model for passing TV data between Scopes and the Shell
[18:55] <bobweaver> so if you are going to have all the things that the TV had then you are going to have to implant all that
[18:56] <mhall119> #action we need scopes that pull TV content from various backends and services that use the datamodel and new API
[18:56] <meetingology> ACTION: we need scopes that pull TV content from various backends and services that use the datamodel and new API
[18:56] <bobweaver> which I hear hush hush words that canonical is doing that
[18:56] <mhall119> bobweaver: doing what?
[18:56] <bobweaver> there is no work for the community because canonical can change anything at any second giving the community the eff bomb
[18:57] <mhall119> bobweaver: that's what I'm actively working to change
[18:57] <mhall119> and jhodapp has been pushing for that to change too
[18:57]  * jhodapp will back mhall119 on that
[18:57] <bobweaver> mhall119:  good for you I am glade to see that
[18:57] <mhall119> so we're almost out of time, tgm4883 any more actions you want me to record?
[18:58] <tgm4883> nope
[18:58] <bobweaver> Listen the only reason that I am hear is because I have to tell you all what happend to me and how you can NOT make it happen to the next me
[18:58] <mhall119> I'd like to end this by asking how you guys, on the community, want us in Canonical to work with you
[18:58] <bobweaver> you know what you all can do stop laughing at people
[18:58] <bobweaver> take them for real
[18:59] <mhall119> bobweaver: none of us has been laughing at all about this
[18:59] <jhodapp> bobweaver, come on man, that's not fair
[18:59] <bobweaver> listen to them and dont clang them up to be just people make them part of the team
[18:59] <bobweaver> mhall119:  should I take out the video of uds and saviq laughing ?
[18:59] <bobweaver> life is not fair
[19:00] <bobweaver> listen if you seee some like me again just tell them that they need to contact saviq and the other people that are too cool to show up to these meeting
[19:00] <mhall119> I certainly hope that didn't happen, but if it did I apologize on their behalf
[19:00] <bobweaver> even though they said that they would make it
[19:00] <bobweaver> member at the last real UDS
[19:00] <mhall119> bobweaver: Saviq doesn't work on TV anymore, he hasn't for some time
[19:01] <mhall119> neither does jhodapp really, he's here on his own volition
[19:01] <bobweaver> that is not the point the point is these are the people that CONTROL things
[19:01] <bobweaver> you must make them work with people
[19:01] <mhall119> bobweaver: no, they don't
[19:01] <jhodapp> bobweaver, no that's not right
[19:01] <bobweaver> if they dont want to then this is doomed
[19:01] <mhall119> they've been yanked around and re-directed as much as you have (more probably)
[19:01]  * jhodapp can attest to that
[19:01] <bobweaver> if you can not work together then what do you have
[19:01] <bobweaver> ?>
[19:02] <bobweaver> people wasting there time
[19:02] <mhall119> alright, our time is up, if anybody has any other questions, concerns or comments, you can find us in #ubuntu-tv
[19:02] <mhall119> #endmeeting
[19:02] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Mar  8 19:02:21 2013 UTC.
[19:02] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-08-18.01.moin.txt
[19:02] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-03-08-18.01.html
[19:02] <bobweaver> I am sure that they have been that is not what I am talking abou t
[19:03] <bobweaver> until you all are way more open in the community then this is doomed to fail if you all want the community to make this happen . that is what I am saying
[19:03] <bobweaver> er webchat dosent scroll down
[19:04] <jhodapp> bobweaver, join #ubuntu-tv