[00:21] <redtape-renegade> MN Pop Quiz : Have you got it ..... and minus specks of quaver bits : *what's it called*  ? http://imgur.com/D4tiu8J
[00:21] <redtape-renegade> Aside: Actually how usefull is it in your 'popular' Ubuntu programs ?
[08:54] <diplo> Morning all
[09:00] <redtape-renegade> Morning. Chilly one diplo, http://i.imgur.com/yWiyfih.jpg
[09:06] <diplo> :)
[09:09] <SuperMatt> morning
[09:15] <airurando> will do
[09:21] <JamesTait> Happy World Day Against Cyber Censorship, everyone! :-D
[09:21] <JamesTait> (That really needs a natty abbreviation)
[09:29] <DJones> Morning
[09:31] <redtape-renegade> JamesTait, It's still going you know... http://www.ritetag.com/report/501163f14aa1077014e9f2e4080e55003609441d
[09:43] <SuperMatt> so, from mark's post last night, are we to start calling +1 "edge?"
[09:46] <czajkowski> SuperMatt: no he's mailed the TB about it
[09:47] <czajkowski> TB being the technical board, Laney sits on it
[09:47] <Laney> no I don't!
[09:47] <czajkowski> gah
[09:47] <czajkowski> no DMB
[09:47] <czajkowski> why do I always think you're on the TB
[09:47] <Laney> dunno, I'm not that cool :P
[09:47] <czajkowski> tis ok we can nominate you next time around
[09:47] <czajkowski> then I'll be right
[09:47] <czajkowski> :)
[09:59] <redtape-renegade> SuperMatt, Seems to be seeing the mirrors http://www.ritetag.com/report/501163f14aa1077014e9f2e4080e55003609441d  [on other mobiles]
[09:59] <redtape-renegade> bad post..
[10:00] <popey> Morning
[10:02] <redtape-renegade> Damn Alt-click key ! SuperMatt , ^ http://www.rethink-wireless.com/2013/03/11/shuttleworth-responds-canonical-criticism.htm ^
[10:49] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[11:02] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:03] <czajkowski> peka boo
[11:03] <SuperMatt> suuuuuup
[11:05] <davmor2> czajkowski: how old do you think we are, next you'll be blowing raspberries on out bellies
[11:06] <czajkowski> eh no
[11:06] <davmor2> hahaha
[11:11] <redtape-renegade> Do you think we'll be seeing DaRK red with the *Gubuntu Logo* like my X-mini http://imgur.com/ATab1H9 ??
[11:11] <redtape-renegade> .. oh the AMD cpu heatsink bracket arrived.. Yipppee !
[13:12] <disharmonia-> Hello
[13:13] <disharmonia-> shalom
[13:31]  * dwatkins tells colleagues about Waze after reading in the Telegraph about people stuck on the M23 over night without any information on the traffic
[14:26] <SuperMatt> what does switching to QML mean for tools that we're used to, like nautilus and evolution?
[14:27] <popey> nothing
[14:27] <SuperMatt> so there's no plans to write a new file manager?
[14:27] <SuperMatt> or anything like that
[14:32] <popey> there is for phone
[14:32] <popey> but not for desktop
[14:32] <popey> anyone tried https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque&feature=search_result#  ?
[14:48] <czajkowski> AlanBell: popey xnox jelmer picking another date to have the Hackntalk looking like end of June or begining of July any dates I should know about in advance to not clash with
[14:50] <xnox> czajkowski: not 22nd/23rd of June, away at http://www.volleyballengland.org/competitions/tournaments_and_events/croyde_king_&_queen_of_the_beach
[14:50] <diplo> popey: Yeah I've used Torque, very good
[14:51] <diplo> I was using the free version
[14:51] <popey> what did you use it for?
[14:52] <diplo> Main reason was to find issues with my car from the ECU, but then used it after for MPG and a load of other stuff, only borrowed it from a friend ( the connector ) but was debating implementing a Phone/Tablet into the dash
[14:56] <popey> Someone should make a qml version for ubuntu phone ;)
[15:00] <SuperMatt> it's my plan to learn how to do this qml gubbins
[15:00] <popey> you should, it's the future!
[15:00] <SuperMatt> indeed
[15:01] <SuperMatt> I managed to get a little way in to doing tutorial stuff t'other day
[15:06] <diplo> popey, going to trying coding myself some apps soon
[15:06] <popey> sweet!
[15:06] <diplo> Need a spare phone to tesst on though :/
[15:06] <popey> no you dont
[15:06] <czajkowski> xnox: looking at july as tryingto keep it to 4 months
[15:06] <popey> you can run the apps directly on your ubuntu desktop
[15:06] <diplo> Do if i want to test Torque type app :)
[15:07] <popey> not necessarily
[15:07] <popey> laptop ☺
[15:07] <popey> bluetooth
[15:07] <popey> job done
[15:07] <diplo> Good thinking!
[15:07] <diplo> So just need to park the car within 10 metres of the house :D
[15:08] <popey> or get a long usb cable to put the bt dongle on :D
[15:08] <diplo> Hmm another good thought
[15:09] <jelmer> czajkowski: none that I'm aware of at the moment
[15:10] <AlanBell> czajkowski: july is good for me
[15:10] <diplo> Also going to try and write an app for GoodReads
[15:11] <SuperMatt> so far, I've noted that qml seems to be a bastardisation between python and javascript
[15:11] <czajkowski> filled in th request for for mid July for the same venue - the cafe
[15:11] <czajkowski> as that was very nice
[15:11] <czajkowski> jelmer: you can give a talk the next time
[15:11] <jelmer> czajkowski: I feared I would be volunteered for one ;-)
[15:11] <czajkowski> jelmer: always next time :)
[15:12] <jelmer> that's okay.. I think I'll have some actual project to talk about by then :-)
[15:12] <czajkowski> it was  afun day and the only complaint I got was the lack of tea/coffee so all in all a fun day
[15:12] <czajkowski> must write up a post about it
[15:21]  * mungbean uses goodreads, but few of my friends do :(
[15:37] <diplo> mungbean: Mines mainly for me when I go to a shop to see if i've read something or not
[15:37] <diplo> :)
[15:37] <diplo> But also like the suggestions
[15:40] <mungbean> diplo: i use shelves app on my phone for that
[15:40] <mungbean> scanned all my books in
[15:49] <AlanBell> czajkowski: name tags might also be good
[15:49] <czajkowski> AlanBell: aye good call
[15:56] <diplo> Not seen the shelves app, will take a look..
[15:57] <mungbean> then i exported to a desktop app
[15:57] <mungbean> then imported into goodreads
[15:57] <mungbean> automagical
[16:00] <diplo> heh, I used to use an app on ubuntu called Alexandria, but there was no way to scan so I exported my results into Goodreads
[16:00] <diplo> Last time I checked it didn't work anymore though
[16:01] <mungbean> yeah it still works
[16:01] <diplo> Oooh that shelves looks quite good, could use it with my films as well
[16:01] <mungbean> was teh app that got me onto ubuntu
[16:01] <mungbean> since building it on fedora core 3 was a nightmare
[16:01] <mungbean> back in the day
[16:02] <diplo> heh, right installing shelves to have a play
[16:04] <mungbean> diplo: uses the barcode app to scan
[16:04] <mungbean> you can export from shelves to google books too
[16:06] <diplo> Hmm it's opensource now but still has ads ?
[16:06] <diplo> May have to compile it myself and remove that ad and then add functionality to read from goodreads api
[16:07] <mungbean> what app has ads?
[16:07] <diplo> Shelves
[16:10] <mungbean> i didn't notice
[16:10] <mungbean> i only use it to collate the data anyway
[16:15] <popey> davmor2: what was that bodge to force software centre to use a different release?
[16:16] <popey> nvm found it!
[16:16] <davmor2> popey: SOFTWARE_CENTER_DISTRO_CODENAME="quantal" software-center
[16:16] <popey> ya ☺
[16:16] <davmor2> meh quit
[16:17] <popey> found it in a pm from you
[16:17] <popey> wanted to install nitro
[16:18] <davmor2> popey: but I didn't think you liked task managers :)
[16:19] <popey> well, i liked tomboy as my task manager until online services took that away
[16:19] <aquarius> stgraber, ping about upstart user sessions
[16:20]  * popey glares at aquarius 
[16:20] <aquarius> what?
[16:20] <aquarius> what did I do wrong now?
[16:20] <popey> oh _nothing_
[16:20] <popey> it's _fine_
[16:20]  * popey looks up 8 lines then back at aquarius 
[16:20] <aquarius> if you think I don't get enough of this sort of crap off my daughter, you are not using your imagination
[16:20] <popey> hah
[16:21] <aquarius> oh, tomboy. yeah.
[16:21] <aquarius> export to a folder with a plugin, and sync the folder.
[16:21] <popey> anyway, i moved to syncing gpg encrypted notes via u1
[16:21] <aquarius> er, sync to a folder, I mean,
[16:21] <popey> and managed to get myself a talk out of it ;)
[16:21] <aquarius> someone on the tomboy list suggested that, and it seemed a good idea to me
[16:21] <aquarius> I have not yet rationalised how I want to do this
[16:21] <stgraber> aquarius: stuck in meetings for now, ping me again in a couple of hours ;)
[16:22] <aquarius> I am waiting to see which notes app will work on both ubutnu desktop and ubuntu phone, and sync between them, and then I'll use it
[16:22] <aquarius> stgraber, no problem -- it is not urgent at all ;)
[16:22] <popey> nitro is quite nice
[16:22] <aquarius> ya
[16:23] <aquarius> it is not clear to me what the difference between nitro and the new one is
[16:23] <aquarius> also: node-webkit on the phone. hm. perhaps, perhaps not.
[16:23] <popey> "the new one"?
[16:23] <aquarius> https://plus.google.com/u/0/117485690627814051450/posts/fXmEUzj7H9G
[16:24] <aquarius> also, I think all the jono cooper webkit-based apps are using gtk webkit
[16:24] <mh0> popey: nitro's awesome :D
[16:24] <popey> ahh
[16:24] <mh0> aquarius: node-webkit
[16:24] <popey> yes, looks nice
[16:25] <popey> yay, my ODBII things are on their way from amazon prime
[16:25] <aquarius> mh0, yes, node, but something needs to actually render a webkit widget in a window. That's not node: that's gotta be gtk or qt or something.
[16:25] <mh0> aquarius:  Well, yeah, that :P
[16:26] <mungbean> popey: played with those on my focus
[16:26] <mungbean> didn't give me as much as i'd hoped
[16:26] <mungbean> used the torque app on android
[16:29] <directhex> an aquarius on irc? inconceivable!
[16:29]  * aquarius laughs
[16:30] <Laney> a personal email from a company wot I ordered something from online thanking me for my order ♥
[16:30] <czajkowski> nitro++
[16:30] <czajkowski> tomboy was nicer and better but :(
[16:31] <DJones> \o/ Just seen a tv advert showing Dr Who starting 30th March :)
[16:32] <aquarius> does dauphinoise actually *require* cream in it? I haven't got any cream. :(
[16:35] <aquarius> aha! you can use milk instead.
[16:36]  * popey has a cookery class tomorrow
[16:36] <aquarius> I put all the cream I had in yesterday's dinner :)
[16:36] <popey> http://newlyns-farmshop.co.uk/cookery-school/
[16:36] <popey> there
[16:36] <aquarius> ooh, flash
[16:36] <aquarius> I am self-teaching :)
[16:38] <popey> it was a present
[16:41] <popey> wifey has asked some of her female friends over next week and I'm cooking
[16:41] <popey> couple of them have veggie husbands so asked me to do meat, because they don't get any at home
[16:41] <popey> ahem
[16:42] <SuperMatt> mmm... meat
[16:42] <mungbean> slow cooked leg o'lamb
[16:42] <SuperMatt> wait, veggie husbands, but not the wives?
[16:42] <mungbean> mmmm
[16:43] <SuperMatt> that's quite a curious way round
[16:43] <mungbean> oh yeah, weird
[16:43] <mungbean> must be some sort of club
[16:43] <SuperMatt> a club I shall NEVER join
[16:43] <mungbean> bacon wins
[16:43] <SuperMatt> troo dat
[16:44] <directhex> pfft, shoulda done carnitas.
[16:59] <mh0> czajkowski: What was tomboy again?
[16:59] <mh0> Some sort of note taking application, right?
[16:59] <directhex> a note-taking app and personal wiki.
[16:59] <directhex> web sync for notes was exceedingly useful
[16:59] <mh0> Hm, well, I'll not reveal mine and Jono's secret then :P
[16:59] <directhex> for sharing between multiple machines on multiple OSes
[17:01] <mh0> directhex: i guess syncing was a nice part of tomboy
[17:01] <mh0> did it ever have U1 syncing?
[17:01] <directhex> yes
[17:01] <directhex> u1 was the main implementation of tomboy's web sync api for years
[17:01] <mh0> nice
[17:01] <SuperMatt> now it's gone :(
[17:07]  * mungbean cries
[17:07] <mungbean> tomboy was the killer app for u1
[17:07] <mungbean> for me
[17:07] <mungbean> now u1 is just another dropbox
[17:07] <mungbean> just as i approach my 5gb limit in u1
[17:07] <directhex> i like u1ms too... although i wish it wasn't so painful to rename tracks
[17:07] <directhex> but yes, i miss tomboy note sync
[17:08]  * TheOpenSourcerer has a dead car :-(
[17:08] <directhex> gnote never gained support for that. apparently writing all the libs to mangle oauth etc from c++ is hard
[17:08] <directhex> TheOpenSourcerer, at least it's not a dead cat
[17:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> I think he's still OK yes . Good point.
[17:08] <popey> TheOpenSourcerer: the v70?
[17:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yes popey
[17:09] <popey> oh dear
[17:09] <popey> wass up with it?
[17:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> ran out of coolant. I didn't know about it until the thing cooked itself.
[17:09] <popey> ouch
[17:09] <popey> mine is also a touch unwell
[17:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> Head gasket blown and probably cylinders/pistons cooked too
[17:09] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: ouchy ouch
[17:09] <popey> yikes
[17:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> Car's value? ~£500
[17:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> Repair bill? > £500
[17:10] <SuperMatt> D:
[17:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> At least I made my meeting :-D
[17:10] <popey> buy another one and swap the engine? ☺
[17:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> Car died right outside
[17:10] <SuperMatt> ooof
[17:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> I can buy another one for not much more but we are not sure if that is what we want to do yet...
[17:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> Been talking about car placement plan for ages now.
[17:11] <popey> i need to consider what to do with mine
[17:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> Not made the plan though ;-)
[17:11] <popey> whether to repair or replace ⍨
[17:11] <popey> dashboard broke ☹
[17:12] <popey> so i have no idea how fast I'm going or how much fuel I have (or if it's overheating)
[17:12] <popey> ran out of fuel on the way to nans 97th birthday with the whole family on board on sunday
[17:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> I like the idea of a personal lease of a new C/E class Merc estate for ~£350/m but we need to make sure we can afford it.
[17:12] <popey> luckily had a 5L can in the boot
[17:12] <SuperMatt> cripes
[17:12] <popey> I'll probably get something like a mondeo size next
[17:12] <SuperMatt> surely driving that is not legal
[17:12] <popey> don't need an estate anymore
[17:12] <redtape-renegade> that's the xxbatt.s then. they didn't ta2e that did they ??
[17:13] <popey> SuperMatt: nope, not illegal
[17:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> Wifey still wants a MASSIVE car
[17:13] <SuperMatt> really?
[17:13] <popey> SuperMatt: it passed MoT like it, just a few weeks ago
[17:13] <SuperMatt> I'd have thought not knowing your speed would be terribly illegal
[17:13] <popey> no
[17:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> I don't but she doesn't want to drive it much either. Just for the occasional trip camping with the kids.
[17:13] <popey> not exceeding the limit is the problem
[17:14] <popey> surely you could fit everything in a saloon with an occasional top box?
[17:14] <popey> you only have 2 sprogs don't you?
[17:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hah!
[17:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> You haven't met my wife
[17:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> She packs *everything*
[17:14] <popey> well, funnily enough we had this convo after the volvo packed up
[17:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> and some more.
[17:14] <popey> yeah, wifey does same
[17:14] <popey> and I pointed this out to her
[17:14] <popey> she said "yeah, I fill the available space"
[17:14] <popey> i.e. if we had a smaller one she would _have_ to compromise
[17:15] <TheOpenSourcerer> I am going to C&P this conversation and show Mrs TheOpenSourcerer
[17:15] <popey> heh
[17:15] <popey> i dont want to spend loads on getting the volvo fixed
[17:15] <popey> it's not that bad, will probably run for a few more years, it's a 51 diesel
[17:15] <TheOpenSourcerer> BUt now I must away and make Twice Cooked Pork with stir-fried rice
[17:15] <popey> still comfy, drives fine, cruises
[17:15] <popey> hehe, nom
[17:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> Mine was a '99 petrol 2.4 turbo.
[17:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> Drank fuel like I drink beer :-)
[17:16] <popey> haha
[17:18] <directhex> i looked at the cost of a new car today.
[17:18] <directhex> i am not getting a new car
[17:19]  * aquarius leases a car. is a good idea
[17:19] <popey> you have a prius don't you directhex ?
[17:20] <directhex> popey, aye
[17:20] <popey> do you get any idea of the battery lifetime?
[17:21] <directhex> the HV battery? none has ever been replaced in the UK, apparently
[17:21] <popey> blimey
[17:21] <SuperMatt> thay's pretty swift
[17:22] <popey> 8 year warranty.. didn't know that
[17:22] <SuperMatt> nice
[17:22] <directhex> i'd hope to buy a yank car next
[17:22] <directhex> assuming affordability
[17:23] <popey> you moving over there?
[17:25] <directhex> nope
[17:25] <directhex> i'd like a volt :)
[17:25] <popey> ahhh
[17:26] <redtape-renegade> I'd like a Zazzle, but computer says no.
[17:29] <popey> I'd love a tesla
[17:29] <popey> there's one parked at the train station
[17:30] <directhex> range anxiety :'(
[17:32] <redtape-renegade> popey, Yeah probly the same color as my X-mini I posted at 11:11:16.. murkey red.
[18:04] <aquarius> right. Don't make dauphinoise with milk instead of cream. It comes out rather boring.
[18:07] <directhex> ._.
[18:07] <directhex> coulda told you that
[18:14] <aquarius> I didn't *have* any cream, though :(
[18:15] <aquarius> directhex, you have range anxiety about a tesla?
[18:16] <aquarius> how far do you need to drive?? it's got a range over twice every other electric car on the market :)
[18:16] <directhex> aquarius, well, the collabora commute is 85 miles each way, with no prospect of charging at the office
[18:16] <jacobw> Shops?
[18:17] <directhex> so i guess a guaranteed 170 mile bare minimum
[18:17] <aquarius> directhex, afaict, the roadster will do 250 miles, and everyone seems to agree with that (or that it'll do at least 200). Apart from Top Gear, obviously ;)
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> don't drive it like Clarkson
[18:17] <aquarius> nothing else even comes *close* to 170 miles, otherwise I'd have an electric car :)
[18:18] <directhex> aquarius, well, hence why i like the volt.
[18:18] <aquarius> MartijnVdS, nah, the problem with Top Gear was that they lied about it, not that they drove it fast. It's a sports car. If you can't drive it like a lunatic on the track, what's the point of it? It's a sports car!
[18:18] <directhex> aquarius, i am an extremely cautious person, and plan my life for "plan b". plan b if a tesla runs dry is "cry onto your expensive leather seats"
[18:18] <directhex> volt plan b is "insert a bit of petrol"
[18:18] <aquarius> directhex, nah. Plan B is "charge at any Nissan dealer or motorway service station somewhere between you and Cambridge" :)
[18:19] <directhex> i don't want a 13 hour stop at a service station
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> directhex: Vauxhall Ampera?
[18:19] <aquarius> you don't need to completely charge it, though? 30 minutes -- "insert a bit of electricity", if you will.
[18:19] <aquarius> a vauxhall ampera *is* a Volt, isn't it? :)
[18:19] <directhex> MartijnVdS, rebadged volt!
[18:19] <aquarius> lulz :)
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> ah.. didn't know that :)
[18:19]  * redtape-renegade Spills half his dinner down his front.
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> <-- car n00b
[18:20] <directhex> i would take an ampera happily. better base spec & nicer trim than volt
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> all I know is I have a Smart "ForTwo" from '02 8-)
[18:20] <directhex> but about £2k higher start price
[18:20] <aquarius> my problem with the tesla roadster, apart from not being able to get in the thing, is that it is the price of a cheap house. :)
[18:20] <aquarius> hence my Juke. :)
[18:21] <directhex> used volt is about £24k. only a year old though. maybe in 3 years' time, i can reassess
[18:21] <aquarius> I thought the new ones were about that (well, that they were about 30 but you got 5k off from the gummint)
[18:21] <directhex> 35k minus 5k
[18:21] <directhex> give or take
[18:22] <aquarius> oh. the 30k is *after* the deduction. Darn.
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> So why do the Tesla S and Roadster get twice the range of all the others?
[18:22] <directhex> MartijnVdS, lots of batteries
[18:22] <directhex> li-ion is expensive
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> Just that? Wow.
[18:23] <directhex> lowest spec Ampera is £34,995.00, before gubmint grant
[18:23] <directhex> chevy site is down right now :)
[18:24] <directhex> think it's about 33k
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> wow.. it starts at around 46k€ here
[18:24] <aquarius> MartijnVdS, a Tesla Roadster takes batteries roughly like laptop batteries. And it has six THOUSAND of them.
[18:24] <aquarius> this is one of the reasons it's ninety grand :)
[18:25] <directhex> huh.
[18:25] <directhex> Meet the 2012 Car of the year: Volt. The electric car with extended range.
[18:25] <directhex> from £35,255.00
[18:25] <MartijnVdS> I'll stick to my Smart for now.
[18:25] <aquarius> I liked the look of the renault
[18:26] <aquarius> now hear this, electric car manufacturers. If you avoid writing an actual range in miles anywhere on your website, and instead say things like "I bet you won't actually exceed the range", it does not make me trust you.
[18:26] <directhex> heh
[18:26] <directhex> agreed!
[18:27] <MartijnVdS> "OK, I'll drive to the north tip of Scotland to prove you wrong"
[18:27] <directhex> basically i want more choice in the "range extended electric" field
[18:27] <aquarius> aha, finally. 115 miles range on a Fluence. Which is rubbish.
[18:27] <directhex> right now it's the amperavolt, or the prius plug-in
[18:27] <MartijnVdS> I want more charging locations
[18:27] <directhex> where the prius plug-in is pretty lame compared to the voltpera
[18:27] <aquarius> more charging locations is a chicken/egg thing.
[18:27] <MartijnVdS> Nearest charging location to my house is a 10 minute drive..
[18:28] <aquarius> I'll say this: the Ampera looks sweet.
[18:28] <MartijnVdS> and I can't get one at my house (flat/shared parking space)
[18:28] <aquarius> MartijnVdS, charge it in your garage. If you don't have a garage, then you are not currently part of the target demographic ;)
[18:28] <directhex> i.e. it's £33,245 and it's far far worse than £2k's worth of distance from an ampera
[18:28] <aquarius> but I don't want a hybrid. :)
[18:28] <redtape-renegade> aquarius, It's chicken/egg thing at the /Sunnyfarm/
[18:28] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: you could just not put petrol in the tank
[18:29] <directhex> prius plug-in is basically a prius with li-ion, i.e. it's a petrol car with an electric boost
[18:29] <aquarius> MartijnVdS, and have a range of about 40 miles. :)
[18:29] <directhex> ampera is a pure electric car with a petrol generator slapped on it
[18:29] <directhex> i want electric drive. VROOOOM
[18:30] <MartijnVdS> I want self-driving electric vehicles
[18:30] <aquarius> me too, directhex
[18:30] <aquarius> it *baffles* me that no-one wants to make a car with a 200 mile eange.
[18:30] <aquarius> I mean, it is possible. Tesla have done it. Why won't Vauxhall make one?
[18:30] <directhex> aquarius, they do. but £££
[18:31] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: £€$ even
[18:31] <aquarius> afaict they do not
[18:31] <aquarius> they *could* do, but no-one does.
[18:31] <MartijnVdS> so... we need cheaper, better battery tech
[18:31] <aquarius> if you want more than about 130 miles out of a car you *have* to buy a Tesla.
[18:31] <aquarius> you can't buy, say, a Fluence with double the amount of battery in :)
[18:31] <directhex> prius plug-in range is about 12 miles :p
[18:31]  * aquarius laughs hysterically. 12 miles? honestly?
[18:32] <directhex> yeah
[18:32] <czajkowski> aquarius: you may have said before, but what do you currently drive?
[18:32] <aquarius> that's like solid, condensed, 24-carat gold fail :)
[18:32] <directhex> up from 1 mile on the standard prius
[18:32] <aquarius> czajkowski, Nissan Juke.
[18:32] <directhex> this is pure electric, of course
[18:32] <directhex> that's the thing. prius is a petrol-first car. even the prius plug-in is petrol first
[18:32] <czajkowski> aquarius: do you do much driving or is this a if the perfect car existed you'd buy it
[18:33] <directhex> ampera's 40 miles is enough for typical drive, without any charge time waiting if you run out. just insert dinosaurs & set them on fire, to add charge
[18:33] <aquarius> czajkowski, I bought (well, began a two year lease on) my Juke last September. If there were an electric car that was suitable, I would absolutly, definitely have got one.
[18:33] <aquarius> But a high proportion of my driving is in 120mile+ bursts.
[18:34] <directhex> if i could afford an ampera i would buy one in a heartbeat
[18:34] <directhex> TO THE LOTTERYMOBILE!
[18:34] <aquarius> and nothing has changed since 2010 when I wrote http://kryogenix.org/days/2010/11/23/why-i-can-t-have-an-electric-car :)
[18:35] <aquarius> heh. First comment on that post: directhex recommending the ampera ;)
[18:36] <czajkowski> heh
[18:36] <directhex> aquarius, i love the idea!
[18:36] <czajkowski> jons car seems to do well on diesel
[18:36] <directhex> and i love that for a change it's not the japanese pioneering something new
[18:36] <aquarius> mine's diesel.
[18:36] <aquarius> I was well disappointed that it gets about the same mpg as my Merc did on petrol, mind :)
[18:38] <redtape-renegade> Unkles miniVan does well on diesel.
[18:38] <directhex> the volt/ampera, and fisker karma, are the only extended-range electrics which are *capable* of pure electric locomotion
[18:38] <directhex> most li-ion hybrids still burn a little petrol
[18:38] <aquarius> directhex, I thought the prius was pure electric if it was on the battery?
[18:38] <popey> 18:24:44 < aquarius> MartijnVdS, a Tesla Roadster takes batteries roughly like laptop batteries. And it has six THOUSAND of them.
[18:38] <popey> i read that in aquarius's voice
[18:39] <aquarius> directhex, it is silent. How does it manage that if there's an internal combustion engine running? Might be missing something here.
[18:39] <directhex> aquarius, well, with the old ni-cd prius, you can't pure electric it at over 30mph, or if you accelerate basically at all
[18:39] <aquarius> oh. that sucks.
[18:39] <directhex> or if the engine is cold
[18:39] <aquarius> hahaha Fisker Karma.
[18:40] <aquarius> that car is double sweet
[18:40] <aquarius> but it's about quarter of a million notes :)
[18:40] <aquarius> and it's a hybrid. :)
[18:41] <aquarius> mildy surprised that Ssangyong aren't into this in a big way
[18:41] <directhex> the prius drive train is built around the petrol engine. the electric motor cannot spin the wheels, it can only spin the petrol engine's cranky bits around
[18:41] <aquarius> ha! I am thick. I thought Ssangyong were Chinese.
[18:41] <popey> the 3rd gen tesla is supposed to be the cheapo mass-market one
[18:41] <popey> after the S
[18:41]  * AlanBell likes the S
[18:42] <directhex> popey, yeah... except it's a petrol car, mostly
[18:42] <popey> ditto
[18:42] <popey> eh?
[18:42] <directhex> sorry, saw 3rd gen, filled in prius
[18:42] <directhex> time for sleep
[18:42] <directhex> or cake
[18:42] <aquarius> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollor%C3%A9_Bluecar ?? Never heard of this
[18:42] <directhex> sleepcake?
[18:42] <redtape-renegade> X)
[18:42] <aquarius> blimey! it is styled by Pininfarina.
[18:43] <popey> fugly on a stick
[18:43] <popey> Pinanfarina has gona blind
[18:43] <aquarius> not very well, though, looking at the pictures. Sergio, I am disappoint.
[18:43] <aquarius> not that it's Sergio any more :)
[18:43] <AlanBell> ah, no the model X is the one I like
[18:43] <directhex> of course, all the ampera love might be disproved by a test drive
[18:44] <popey> golly, the place wifey bought her vauxhall has a leccy charger
[18:44] <directhex> (e.g. honda civic hybrid and honda insight are terrible cars)
[18:44] <aquarius> oof, and they want 500eur pm for it, which is a bit rich for a car that looks like a liquorice allsort.
[18:44] <popey> hah
[18:46] <aquarius> "As of November 2012, GM has not disclosed details about the range" (of the Spark). Perhaps this means that it will be 400 miles!
[18:46]  * aquarius thinks not
[18:47] <popey> ☹  so no leccy car for me
[18:48]  * AlanBell pops out for bioethanol
[18:48] <directhex> wow, there are only 526 voltperas in the UK
[18:48] <directhex> 67 volts, the rest amperas
[18:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> Someone needs to sort out fuelcells so they work and are cost effective. Batteries suck big time.
[18:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> Or make the batteries from Graphene.
[18:49] <AlanBell> just chuck a few carrots in the Mr Fusion
[18:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[18:49] <aquarius> TheOpenSourcerer, not sure I see the point in having fuel cells working in a car.
[18:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> You can refill them in a few minutes.
[18:50] <directhex> precisely
[18:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> They have a much better range
[18:50] <directhex> honda have some concept ones in california
[18:50] <aquarius> I can refill my car in a few minutes. :)
[18:50] <directhex> and three charging stations!
[18:50] <aquarius> ah, we're talking about hydrogen fuel cells? not methanol?
[18:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yes, but you can't charge a leccy car in that time.
[18:50] <AlanBell> the fuel for fuel cells is made from electricity
[18:50] <directhex> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX_Clarity
[18:50] <aquarius> like the Clarity?
[18:50] <directhex> precisely like the clarity
[18:51] <aquarius> right. Then the problem is not the car, it's how you put a hydrogen delivery platform everywhere. You have to convince every petrol station on the globe to also sell hydrogen.
[18:51] <aquarius> I can't see how that's going to happen.
[18:51] <aquarius> without massive government intervention
[18:51] <directhex> aquarius, somehow LPG got traction
[18:51] <aquarius> hahaha no it didn't.
[18:51] <aquarius> where's your nearest LPG station?
[18:52] <directhex> aquarius, but yes, you're right - but you're really just selling EREV like the ampera here! :D
[18:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> Now delivery and storage of Hydrogen is not so much of an issue as it was around the time of the Zeppelins
[18:52] <AlanBell> fuel cells/batteries need to be pluggable
[18:52] <directhex> aquarius, the estate behind my house has a place selling LPG :)
[18:52]  * redtape-renegade checks ritetag.com for #hydrogenfuelcells
[18:52] <aquarius> directhex, really? blimey. The nearest one to me is four or five miles away, and I'm in the country!
[18:52] <aquarius> well, sortof. ;)
[18:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> Iceland could produce most of the world's Hydrogen for very low costs.
[18:52] <AlanBell> go to fuel station, remove battery/fuel module, shove in fresh one
[18:52] <popey> http://www.lpgmap.co.uk/map.php?lat=51.2948891&lng=-0.7408557&error=0&search=7
[18:52] <popey> loads near me aquarius
[18:53] <aquarius> TheOpenSourcerer, srsly, I am not worried about the Hindenberg, or about storage, I'm worried about how you build as many hydrogen delivery stations as there are petrol stations.
[18:53] <aquarius> popey, you *are* in the country, though ;)
[18:53] <popey> wat
[18:54] <directhex> aquarius, http://www.countrywidefarmers.co.uk/pws/Content.ice?page=EnergyAutoGasRefuellingOutlets&pgForward=businesscontentfull
[18:54] <popey> http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/bp-quits-solar-goes-back-to-petroleum
[18:54] <popey> fancy that
[18:54] <aquarius> the reason I like electric cars is that the fuel delivery infrastructure already exists, and it's in your house. You can privately and unilaterally opt in; you don't have to wait for Shell to *decide* that they want to support your quixotic car adventure.
[18:54] <directhex> so neener neener boo boo :D
[18:54] <popey> Lets Kickstarter an Open Source electric car!
[18:54] <popey> (or lets go down the pub and laugh at that idea)
[18:54]  * aquarius grins
[18:55] <aquarius> people suggested that in comments when I complained about electric cars.
[18:55] <aquarius> "build your own!"
[18:55] <ali1234> lol
[18:55] <aquarius> I'm like, hahahaa, no.
[18:55] <directhex> top gear did that
[18:55] <aquarius> they did :)
[18:55] <directhex> http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/top-gear-hammerhead-eagle-i-thrust-car-official-press-release
[18:55] <ali1234> get a scrapper for £50
[18:55] <redtape-renegade> thought so, there's nothing in G+comm/twitter for #hydrogenfuelcells
[18:56] <ali1234> fill it with enough Li batteries to burn down a small city
[18:56] <popey> haha, plastic chair
[18:56] <ali1234> "sounds like a good idea"
[18:56] <aquarius> ali1234, it's doable, it's just not clear how you do it *economically*. The Tesla cars are basically perfect electric cars, it's just that they're four times the price of a normal equivalent petrol car :)
[18:57] <ali1234> yes
[18:57] <directhex> "This time, it was armed with more batteries, and a diesel generator to recharge said batteries."
[18:57] <directhex> they didn't build an electric, they built an ampera :D
[18:57] <popey> although watching Elon Musk do his press release for their latest car was uncomfortable
[18:57] <ali1234> it was fine
[18:57] <aquarius> directhex, they made that point :) They were dead pleased to have built a hybrid ;)
[18:57] <popey> yes, "fine"
[18:57] <directhex> i'd love a tesla as a toy. i wouldn't want one as my main vehicle
[18:58] <directhex> i wouldn't want to visit family in the south of france in a tesla
[18:58] <directhex> even the S
[18:58] <ali1234> guy has so much money it doesn't even matter
[18:58] <popey> dont have a second child, fill the spare seat with batteries
[18:59]  * popey has steak for dinner
[18:59] <directhex> sounds explodey
[18:59] <popey> and red cabbage
[18:59] <redtape-renegade> Scotch yellow egg for mine ..
[19:01] <directhex> 'In an effort to avoid "pulling a Telsa", BMW is reportedly planning to offer petrol-powered loaners to i3 buyers who need to -- you know -- actually drive somewhere other than work.'
[19:01] <directhex> ._.
[19:02] <aquarius> the i3's a plugin hybrid, isn't it?
[19:02] <directhex> 'According to WardsAuto, however, BMW is piecing together a program that would allow i3 buyers to grab a gasoline-powered Bimmer when long hauls are necessary, and the loaner program will be bundled into the cost of the car.'
[19:02] <aquarius> got an electric range of about 40 miles :)
[19:02] <directhex> i3 is pure electric
[19:02] <directhex> or there'd be no need for the loan programme
[19:02] <popey> electric range of "your house to the nearest dealership to pick up a petrol car"
[19:02] <directhex> 90 mile range
[19:03] <aquarius> aah, the i8 is the hybrid
[19:05] <popey> http://idevelop.github.com/ascii-camera/
[19:05] <popey> silly
[19:06] <ali1234> er... how do i allow it to access my camera?
[19:08] <popey> in chromium it just asks
[19:08] <ali1234> i guess firefox can't do it then
[19:08] <directhex> doesn't show much
[19:08] <directhex> of course, my laptop is closed
[19:08] <directhex> :D
[19:09] <Azelphur> I decided I'd brave the waters of the silkroad market purely to see what all the hype is about, funny enough, not all drugs
[19:09] <Azelphur> there's normal stuff on there too, computer hardware, games, etc
[19:19] <aquarius> popey, hey, will ubuntu tablet work on the original asus transformer?
[19:20] <popey> no
[19:20] <aquarius> I won't bother trying to steal it back from Niamh then ;)
[19:20] <popey> we did use it on that initially
[19:21] <popey> but that was $time ago
[19:21] <ali1234> that reminds me i need to figure out how to install it on ideapad
[19:21] <ali1234> i think i'll wait for raring update
[19:22] <popey> thats going to be soon
[19:22] <ali1234> hmm this is weird
[19:22] <ali1234> in KDE, you can drag Gtk windows (ie move them) from the menubar
[19:23] <ali1234> (from a blank area)
[19:23] <ali1234> but not KDE apps
[19:23] <ali1234> and i never saw this happen in gnome
[19:25] <stgraber> aquarius: hey, so you had a question?
[19:28] <aquarius> stgraber, I do! Two questions, actually. First: how can I tell if upstart is now running my user session?
[19:28] <aquarius> stgraber, if it isn't, then I won't ask the second question yet :)
[19:29] <stgraber> aquarius: chances are it's not as it's off by default
[19:29] <aquarius> oh. heh :)
[19:29] <aquarius> stgraber, ok, I shall ask my second question and that'll help decide whether I want to turn it on :)
[19:29] <stgraber> aquarius: you can tell by checking whether your current session is listed in /etc/upstart-xsessions but by default only ubuntu is listed there and only as a comment
[19:30] <aquarius> stgraber, what I would like to do is: when I am connected to a particular wireless network, stop the screen from locking due to inactivity.
[19:30] <aquarius> stgraber, I could, of coruse, write a daemon which listens to NetworkManager's D-Bus signals and, when on the correct network, inhibits the screensaver.
[19:30] <aquarius> but I do not like daemons.
[19:31] <stgraber> I don't think we have any bridge with network-manager at this point, so you'd probably need to implement an extra bridge to get the DBus signal (we really need a generic dbus signal bridge)
[19:31] <aquarius> What I *want* is, when I switch to a new wireless network (or boot the machine, etc), for *something* to be monitoring that, and for that something to start up my app, which can then decide what to do and then shut down
[19:31] <aquarius> that is: I want to separate the "be a daemon" and "do work" bits of the app, and have upstart handle the "be a daemon" bit ;)
[19:32] <aquarius> is that something that is in theory doable, even if it's not doable right now?
[19:32] <stgraber> yes, it's definitely the kind of thing we want to eventually get into upstart, it's not easily doable just yet though
[19:33] <stgraber> or actually it may be pretty easy with a couple of hacks
[19:33] <aquarius> I think up an awful lot of ideas which go something like: when $dbus-signal from $app happens, do $action. The only way to do that right now, as far as I can tell, is to be a daemon which runs all the time in order to get the signal. I would very much like it if upstart could take over that be-a-daemon part of the world :)
[19:33] <stgraber> you can dump a shell script into /etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d which will then emit system wide events for any kind of network change. Then you can write user jobs that do "start on :sys:your-new-event CONDITION=something"
[19:34] <stgraber> ^ the above is a NM-specific solution for what you want. I agree we'll want a more generic way of hooking upstart to dbus signals
[19:34] <aquarius> aha, that sounds like a useful interim hack :)
[19:35] <aquarius> so, to make sure I understand properly: if I did that, right now, I also have to enable something to make upstart run in my user session?
[19:35] <aquarius> if I put upstart jobs in ~/.init right now, they'll be ignored?
[19:36] <stgraber> yeah, but you should wait until the new dbus, gnome-session and gnome-settings-daemon hit the archive (I uploaded them 30min ago), otherwise you won't be able to get a working user session anyway
[19:36]  * aquarius laughs
[19:36] <aquarius> I shall wait a while before trying this, then, since stuff is all in flux :)
[19:36] <aquarius> but this sounds promising
[19:36] <aquarius> thanks, stgraber!
[19:36] <stgraber> right. Wait for dbus, gnome-session and gnome-settings-daemon to land in the archive, then uncomment ubuntu in /etc/upstart-xsessions and then it should be working
[19:37] <stgraber> I'm running the packages I just uploaded and they're definitely working here ;)
[19:38] <aquarius> being able to do "start on dbus:some-dbus-thing:some-signal name" would be totally utterly brilliant :0
[19:45] <Laney> grarg
[19:46] <Laney> Just kicked a full mug of tea over and sent it spiralling across half the sitting room
[19:48] <popey> erk
[19:48] <zleap> ops
[19:48] <zleap> oops
[19:48] <Laney> 1001 will sort it out, I'm sure ...
[19:49]  * Laney goes out for a bike ride while it dries
[19:52] <directhex> i'm going home, i think
[19:53] <directhex> home seems awesome to me
[19:53] <directhex> full of things like "bed"
[19:53] <directhex> and "xbox"
[19:53] <Laney> not baby and wife?
[19:53] <directhex> oh, those guys
[19:53] <directhex> sure, i guess
[19:53] <stgraber> aquarius: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5608742/
[19:54]  * TheOpenSourcerer heads off to the lounge to watch Horizon then Masterchef with a nice glass of scotch...
[19:54] <stgraber> aquarius: put that into /etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d/02upstart, make it executable and you'll get nice upstart events whenever something changes in NM
[19:54] <directhex> i'm out of rum :(
[19:54] <directhex> also, 2 hour drive home :(
[19:54] <aquarius> stgraber, nice!
[19:54] <Laney> good god does haskell-lens's testsuite take forever to run
[19:55] <Laney> it doesn't even output anything while it's doing so
[19:55] <stgraber> aquarius: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5608746/ that's what I get on wired here
[19:55] <stgraber> aquarius: so I should now be able to do "start on :sys:nm-connection-up INTERFACE=eth1 DHCP4_ROUTERS=172.17.0.1" and have it only trigger when on my network ;)
[19:55] <aquarius> very cool indeed!
[19:57] <stgraber> aquarius: output for a VPN when still connected on wired: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5608751/
[20:05] <AlanBell> bioethanol fail :(
[20:10]  * aquarius tries to work out how to inhibit the screensaver without being a long-running process. :(
[20:10] <aquarius> I assumed this bit would be easy :(
[20:18] <aquarius> ...and it seems not doable at all. :(
[20:23] <ali1234> redtape-renegade: just found this http://askubuntu.com/questions/51394/my-webcam-is-not-working-with-google-hangout-can-i-make-it-work
[20:23] <ali1234> if your camera uses gspca, this is why it doesn't work, and a workaround
[20:36] <aquarius> gaah. Looking at cuttlefish, which might do this for me (in the absence of upstart greatness) and... it's only in USC for 12.04 :(
[20:40] <aquarius> and running the download has no actions defined.
[20:40] <aquarius> the universe doesn't want me to do this, does it?
[20:41]  * aquarius just turns off screen lock, with a sense of annoyance and trepidation.
[21:01] <Laney> that's the typical problem I've been finding too - not how to find the right upstart events, but /what/ to run
[23:08] <bigcalm> Good evening peeps :)