[00:00] <mungbean> encrypted?
[00:00] <MooDoo> ok night all, suppose i better go to bed seeing as I'm at work tomorrow :D
[00:00] <mungbean> i have a crypto key
[00:01] <shauno> doesn't look like flash to me.  or if it is, they've altered it
[00:01] <neuro> i think it's data to be used by a flash app, rather than standalone
[00:01] <mungbean> the android app simply has encrypted pdfs
[00:02] <neuro> shauno: the nail in the coffin for me, as far as the FSF are concerned, was that defective by design campaign where they advocated swamping Apple Store Genius Bars with appointments
[00:02] <mungbean> it must be a pdf somewhere
[00:02] <shauno> for a flash file, the first three characters should be FWS.  this has ZNO, which sounds like it may not be coincidentally close to zinio
[00:03] <mungbean> ooh
[00:23] <mungbean> telegraph are reporting on the chinonical story http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/9948817/China-develops-national-open-source-operating-system.html
[00:25] <shauno> eh, they've done this before, with little effect.  'red flag linux' was based off redhat instead
[00:38] <penguin42> shauno: With little effect - was it not much used internally either?
[00:39] <shauno> only seems to have been used places they could force it by mandate
[00:40] <shauno> but for the big picture, windows is essentially free software there still
[00:41] <shauno> if they want to actually make a difference, they have to attack it from both directions.  make a decent push against piracy, and offer a good alternative
[00:59] <penguin42> nod
[00:59] <penguin42> shauno: And with Ubuntu tending to be excellent in i18n I'd hope there is very little to do to actually make it work well in Chinese?
[01:01] <shauno> couldn't tell you, haven't used it as a desktop since .. 8.06?
[01:02] <ali1234> gnome-panel #neverquit #yolo #swag
[01:02] <ali1234> hatersgonnahate.gif
[01:03] <shauno> nah, none of that. the timing was more apple's move to intel
[01:06] <ali1234> ls
[01:06] <ali1234> ARGH
[01:07] <ali1234> i wish gnome-terminal would hide the cursor when window is not active
[01:09] <shauno> mine changes to a 'hollow' cursor.  frequently isn't enough either :/
[01:09] <ali1234> i'm sure mine used to
[01:09] <ali1234> in fact i'm sure it used to be an option
[01:14] <ali1234> rebuilding... over and over again
[01:40] <ali1234> grumbleg grumble minw32 cross compiler is broken...
[03:01] <ali1234> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21913847 i half expected horse
[07:46] <popey> morning
[07:47] <SuperMatt> this morning I want to stab X
[07:47] <SuperMatt> because I can't have 3 screens on two graphics cards using one X session :(
[07:50] <redtape-renegade> morning all
[07:52] <redtape-renegade> SuperMatt, & popey Didn't Azelphur have a picture of Ubuntu having use on 3 screens using his new table setup recently ?
[07:52] <redtape-renegade> or was that the joke ?
[07:56] <SuperMatt> I'm sure he did it, but you need a graphics card with three outputs
[07:56] <SuperMatt> I have two with two each
[07:57] <MartijnVdS> formula 1 time!
[07:57] <MartijnVdS> <Turns on radio>
[08:05] <MartijnVdS> I can only watch it in German, unless I pay €15/month for the "sports" package...
[08:13] <redtape-renegade> MartijnVdS, Can't you stick some tin foil in the sky socket, or something to fix it ?
[08:16] <SuperMatt> you know what's interesting? I've used a lot of command line tools to get stuff done in ubuntu, that I've often missed improvements in desktop tools
[08:18] <popey> MartijnVdS: its not on bbc1?
[08:18] <popey> ah no
[08:21] <popey> redtape-renegade: Azelphur has lots of screens
[08:42] <redtape-renegade> popey, Yes I do recall watching his desk album unfold on dropbox a while ago .. I hope he got all he wanted out of it.
[08:57]  * redtape-renegade wonders if B&Q will be open today [??]
[08:58] <popey> our local one is on sunday
[08:58] <redtape-renegade> they never update their website about the weather affecting opening hours ;(
[08:59] <redtape-renegade> popey, they're own by KingFisher aren't they ?
[08:59] <redtape-renegade> ***owned . by
[08:59] <popey> hah
[08:59] <popey> B&Q Advert just came on the radio
[08:59] <redtape-renegade> what station ?
[08:59] <popey> a local one here
[09:00] <redtape-renegade> in farnham ?
[09:00] <popey> london
[09:00] <redtape-renegade> oh . that could be Capital , idunno.
[09:00] <redtape-renegade> news should be on now anyway.
[09:00] <popey> heart
[09:01] <redtape-renegade> ahh .. you speak the language of the the Cree
[09:01] <popey> i try to avoid commercial radio
[09:01] <popey> but on sunday mornings radio 2 and radio 4 are full of religious nonsense
[09:02] <redtape-renegade> yep, our local one is going mental over 9 inches of snow ! It's major news.
[09:03] <redtape-renegade> Yay.. an ICT university in Douglas !
[09:06] <redtape-renegade> popey , How was your Earth Hour at 8.30pm last night .. Did the earth shatter for you [sic] ??
[09:07] <popey> i had no idea it was earth hour until mungbean mentioned it
[09:08] <redtape-renegade> yeah, thought so. It was buzy on this channel last night, I see.
[09:08] <kvarley> Probably a bad place to ask, but does anybody here know Access?
[09:09] <redtape-renegade> isn't that for kids ?
[09:09] <kvarley> lol, yes
[09:09] <kvarley> fixed my issue
[09:09] <kvarley> I hate Access with a passion - just required to use it for uni
[09:10] <redtape-renegade> kvarley, Surely, You want to use the free Oracle one / package don't you ?
[09:10] <kvarley> redtape-renegade: I have to use Access because that's what they'll mark it on
[09:10] <redtape-renegade> 'they' ?
[09:10] <kvarley> the tutors
[09:11] <redtape-renegade> of where ?
[09:11] <kvarley> University
[09:11] <redtape-renegade> of where ?
[09:12] <redtape-renegade> i gio to university all the time .. its called My World ^_^
[09:18] <redtape-renegade> Aaaw my stomach is killing me .. must be the Eggs I had .
[09:19] <redtape-renegade> it keeps taking to me like some monster off Classic DooM.
[09:25]  * redtape-renegade kills the   Mancubus with porridge, syrup and sultana's.    | http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Mancubus
[10:01] <MartijnVdS> Time to play around with the rpi a bit more! :)
[10:48] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[10:48] <MartijnVdS> hi brobostigon
[10:49] <brobostigon> morning MartijnVdS
[10:49] <kvarley> \0
[10:50] <brobostigon> morning kvarley
[10:50] <kvarley> How's it going?
[10:50] <brobostigon> could be better. and you?
[10:51] <kvarley> Same, currently dealing with Microsoft Access for a uni project
[10:51] <brobostigon> :(
[10:51] <kvarley> It's an uphill struggle, they ignore standards and make stuff purposely hard to do
[10:51] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: it's easy as long as you have ALL the MS tools and use ONLY those
[10:52] <MartijnVdS> oh wow.. this _older_ (& slower) SD card is actually more responsive than the new/Class 10 card
[10:52] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: Ok, two things that really annoy me so far. 1) Once you've made your relationships you can't change the tables at all without removing the relationships. 2) For some reason -1 = Yes
[10:53] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: -1 = not 0 = true ;)
[10:53] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: But hnaibguadgkldgjdksh
[10:53] <kvarley> lol
[10:54] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: I agree, just trying to find a way of thinking in which it would make sense :)
[10:55] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: Makes sense, but still .. They crazy
[10:55] <kvarley> Is there a IRC channel for the touch part of the OS?
[10:55] <kvarley> Ah, got it
[14:42] <kvarley> Is there a better tablet to get other than the Nexus 10? I'm looking to run Ubuntu when it gets more stable
[14:43] <kvarley> Can't find anything that beats it on it's I/O, display and processor in one package. They all seem to do them seperately
[14:50] <popey> I'd wait till Google IO, see what gets announced
[14:51] <ali1234> nexus 10 is a premium item. so is the new chromebook.
[14:51] <ali1234> you won't find anything better, except perhaps whatever replaces them :)
[15:04] <kvarley> popey: When is google i/o? My tablet died yesterday :(
[15:04] <kvarley> ali1234: do you have one? :)
[15:05] <ali1234> no
[15:05] <kvarley> Do you thin I should get a keyboard + touchpad bluetooth setup or just a bluetooth keyboard?
[15:15] <ali1234> no point
[15:16] <ali1234> just get a tablet
[15:20] <popey> kvarley: you had a kindle fire?
[15:20] <popey> why not file a support request?
[15:27] <Azelphur> gah, tax people are crazy, they are trying to say bitcoin trading is subject to VAT
[15:33] <popey> why would it not be?
[15:39] <ali1234> http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/forms-rates/rates/goods-services.htm#9
[15:39] <ali1234> that's why
[15:39] <ali1234> "Financial services including the issue, transfer or receipt                  of, or dealing with money, securities for money or orders for                  the payment of money"
[15:39] <ali1234> VAT exempt
[15:40] <Azelphur> indeed, it should be
[15:40] <Azelphur> popey: on that basis high volume traders would have to pay 20%, which is just totally unprofitable in financial tradings
[15:40] <ali1234> "The issue, transfer or dealing with a security" - VAT exempt
[15:40] <Azelphur> the profit margin is 5%ish, asking us to pay 20% would be -15% profit, time to shut down and no tax for anybody.
[15:41] <ali1234> you need a better accountant
[15:41] <ali1234> and probably a better lawyer when it ends up in court, which it will
[15:41] <Azelphur> https://www.dropbox.com/s/wmpjyym7xztqygx/IMG_20130324_131647.jpg is what HMRC are saying
[15:42] <Azelphur> (letter to one of the other uk traders, not me)
[15:42] <kvarley> popey: I had a first gen fire from america
[15:42] <kvarley> So I can't claim on warranty
[15:42] <ali1234> Azelphur: that letter doesn't say whether you have o pay VAT on bitcoin trades or not
[15:42] <ali1234> it just says you have to be VAT registered
[15:43] <Azelphur> oh, ok
[15:43] <ali1234> that is different
[15:43] <Azelphur> crisis averted maybe ;)
[15:43] <ali1234> well, it says in their opinion bitcoins are vouchers
[15:43] <ali1234> which are not exempt
[15:44] <ali1234> but that's just their opinion
[15:44] <Azelphur> yea
[15:44] <Azelphur> they obviously arn't vouchers xD
[15:44] <ali1234> why is it obvious?
[15:45] <ali1234> i mean HMRC are going to say whatever they can to get more money
[15:45] <ali1234> what's the counter argument?
[15:45] <Azelphur> Voucher: A small printed piece of paper that entitles the holder to a discount or that may be exchanged for goods or services.
[15:45] <ali1234> yep i agree they are not vouchers, actually
[15:46] <ali1234> since vouchers are backed by a single entity
[15:46] <Azelphur> indeed
[15:46] <ali1234> and have a fixed value denominated in some other currency
[15:46] <ali1234> now, are you willing to go to court over it?
[15:47] <Azelphur> I think most of the UK traders would be, between us we have quite a bit of clout
[15:47] <ali1234> then, have fun
[15:47] <Azelphur> \o/
[15:47] <ali1234> and get a lawyer
[15:48] <Azelphur> that said, if it does go that far, I am so going to make the point that it's ridiculous that they are punishing us for trying to pay them xD
[15:48] <DJones> Possibly if trading in Bitcoinswhere subject to VAT, it would only be the fee that was liable to VAT anyway, so if the profit margin was 5%, you'd need to be trading in about £1.5M of bitcoins to generate total commission of £75000 before you'd get anywhere near the vat registration threshold
[15:48] <Azelphur> scumbag azelphur, tries to do the right thing, ends up in court.
[15:48] <ali1234> djones raises a good point
[15:48] <ali1234> this stuff is complicated
[15:48] <ali1234> this is why you need a good accountant and a good lawyer
[15:48] <Azelphur> DJones: I thought VAT was on volume rather than profit
[15:49] <DJones> UNless they deemed it purchasing bitcoins and reselling them at a profit
[15:49] <Azelphur> if they want 20% of my /profit/ that's absolutely possible, I can do that
[15:49] <Azelphur> if they want 20% of the value of everything I trade, that's impossible because it's about 4x what I earn
[15:50] <Azelphur> but yea, I'm gonna get an accountant to fix this for me
[15:50] <DJones> Azelphur: It depends how it was decided, if you buy goods/services & resell them at a profit (eg a shop) then you'd be able to claim the vat you pay on buying the goods & have to declare the vat on the selling price
[15:50] <Azelphur> hopefully, anyway :)
[15:51] <Azelphur> DJones: yea, but even then, 20% is just impossible
[15:51] <Azelphur> the margin between my buy and sell is around 5%
[15:52] <Azelphur> definitely gonna get my own accountant though, see what I can do with it
[15:52] <DJones> You'd need a good accountant & lawyer (and probably barrister as well) if they pushed the argument that they were vouchers
[15:52] <Azelphur> \o/
[15:52]  * DJones see's £'s disappearing from Azelphur's wallet
[15:52] <Azelphur> indeed :(
[15:53] <Azelphur> at least (in theory) the cost would be shared between all of us
[15:54] <ali1234> http://www.ukgcva.co.uk/downloads/factsheets/fs_vat.pdf
[15:55] <ali1234> “face-value voucher” means atoken, stamp or voucher (whether in physical orelectronic form) that represents a right to receivegoods or services to the value of an amountstated on it or recorded in it.
[15:55] <Azelphur> yep, it doesn't fit that definition either
[15:55] <ali1234> retailer vouchers - These are face value vouchers where the issuerand redeemer of the goods and services is thesame person. On retailer vouchers, VAT isaccounted for on the value at which thevoucher is sold, at the point of redemption.
[15:55] <ali1234> so that does not fit
[15:55] <Azelphur> yea
[15:56] <ali1234> and even if it did, not vat until it is redeemed
[15:56] <Azelphur> hehe
[15:57] <ali1234> if it is a credit voucher however, "VAT is accounted for on the full facevalue of the voucher, at the point the voucher isredeemed"
[15:57] <ali1234> so what is the face value of a bitcoin?
[15:57] <Azelphur> there isn't a face value of a bitcoin xD
[15:59] <ali1234> well, this is the angle here. they don't have a face value
[16:00] <Azelphur> indeed
[16:00] <ali1234> if you never redeem the vouchers, i don't see why you ever have to pay vat
[16:00] <Azelphur> there's also a hilarious point that you can never find out whether a bitcoin has been redeemed due to the nature of the system
[16:00] <Azelphur> xD
[16:01] <ali1234> yes, it can never be "redeemed"
[16:01] <Azelphur> oh yea, that's a good point, it never can be redeemed lol
[16:01] <DJones> That could be a double edged sword though, most "goods for sale" don't have a "face value" and a business selling them would charge vat on them on sale
[16:02] <ali1234> well, none of us knows the answer that's for sure
[16:02] <ali1234> in fact nobody does
[16:02] <ali1234> the laws just don't cover it
[16:02] <Azelphur> yea
[16:02] <Azelphur> hopefully I'll get some better answers from an accountant
[16:02] <ali1234> depends if they are any good or not
[16:03] <Azelphur> xD
[16:03] <DJones> Azelphur: http://btclag.org/?p=16
[16:05] <ali1234> even if you consider it a voucher i don't see that you have to pay VAT, unless it is used to purchase goods, and then VAT is due on the value of the goods
[16:06] <DJones> Other things to consider, if its treated as a currency, you would probably need to register with the Financial Services Authorities and have to comply with money laundering regulations
[16:07] <Azelphur> yea, we expect to need to follow AML stuff
[16:07] <DJones> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=66774.20
[16:08] <DJones> Post 32 might be worthing looking at
[16:08] <Azelphur> yea, I'm buying and selling rather than brokering :(
[16:11] <DJones> That does seem to play into the HMRC's hands in a way, if you buy from a private individual, they couldn't charge you vat (which you'd be able to reclaim) but when you sold, you'd have to pay vat at 20% on the sale price (Always assuming that bitcoins ended up being classed as vatable)
[16:12] <DJones> Bag of worms springs to mind
[16:13] <Azelphur> hehe
[16:13] <Azelphur> imo it's no different to playing forex
[16:13] <Azelphur> or being a currency exchange and taking a %, they sure as hell don't take 20% on exchange xD
[16:14] <DJones> Personally, I'd agree with that assessment, but its tax authorities and whether it is a true currency
[16:15] <Azelphur> yea
[16:24] <daubers> Weeeeeeeeeeeeee, my raspberry pi works
[16:27] <newbie45> sdf
[16:31] <daubers> So, are private github accounts worth the $7 a month?
[16:39] <kvarley> This is a helpful message Google "Currency fluctuations and bank fees may affect the final amount charged to you."
[16:39] <kvarley> I'm being charged in GBP
[16:39] <kvarley> So no idea what charges they mean
[18:15] <meet> does pidgin integrate with unity as well as empathy does?
[19:25] <SuperEngineer> o/
[19:25] <SuperEngineer> Thinking of trying Mutt
[19:26] <SuperEngineer> ..should I go for plain Mutt [Ubuntu supported] or mutt-patched [unsupported]?
[19:39] <sebsebseb> hi
[19:43] <SuperEngineer> o/
[19:49] <mungbean> \o
[19:49] <popey> Evening
[19:49] <popey> mungbean: decided what to do about your tablet?
[19:49] <mungbean> :( i ordered a new charger, will find out in couple of days
[19:50] <mungbean> if not, then will try the tpdebricker
[19:50] <mungbean> which is risky, especially if not bricked
[19:50] <mungbean> if both fail then i will cry and buy a nex7, although i like 10 inch tablet
[19:51] <mungbean> but we are single income family and all ££ goes to home, hence tech budget is low
[19:51] <mungbean> wondering which film to watch tonight. das boot only lasted 1hr until i got bored
[19:51] <mungbean> i span up adnroidx86 to try zinio reader on it, but is crashy
[19:52] <penguin42> mungbean: Perhaps you just needed to come up for air?
[19:54] <mungbean> i have the following to choose from: joyeux noel (about 1st WW chrimstas ceasefire), Bombon el perro, Che, The Ghost, or 300
[19:54] <mungbean> or tales from earthsea, but don't think i bother with that
[19:54] <penguin42> well I don't know any of them, I guess 300 might be worth a go
[19:55] <mungbean> i watched spiral series 4 last week - best telly i've seen all year (since the killing)
[19:56] <ali1234> not 300
[19:56] <ali1234> it's rubbish
[19:56] <ali1234> haven't seen any of the others
[19:56] <ali1234> 300 is ok i guess, if you haven't seen it, and you want to see a load of memes in their original context
[19:57] <mungbean> if i watch a subtitled film then i have to turn off laptop
[19:57] <mungbean> not a bad thing
[19:58] <mungbean> i fancy watching dune again but its at bottom of my dvd box
[19:58] <popey> not seen that for years
[19:58] <mungbean> noiideep
[19:59] <ali1234> haha dune
[19:59] <popey> boo, not on netflix
[19:59] <mungbean> fail
[19:59] <ali1234> people reckon it's bad, i don't know why, i think it's good
[19:59] <mungbean> its good if u aint read the book
[19:59] <ali1234> it's better if you have
[20:00] <mungbean> worst book->film i ever saw was catch22
[20:01] <ali1234> dredd (3D) is good
[20:01] <ali1234> i saw that the other day
[20:07] <mungbean> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0244479/ just found in the box, is good
[20:09] <directhex> yikes. insane jump in bitcoin difficulty. you spotted that, Azelphur?
[20:09] <Azelphur> I havn't, but that'll likely be because there are 3 asics in the wild, so to be expected.
[20:16] <AlanBell> proper asics, not just fpgas?
[20:16] <ali1234> yes, proper ones
[20:16] <AlanBell> gosh
[20:17] <Azelphur> AlanBell: I have 3 of em on preorder, big dollar :P
[20:21] <SuperEngineer> Azelphur: [yawn]
[20:22] <Azelphur> lol
[20:22] <SuperEngineer> that's boasting
[20:22] <ali1234> i spent the past two days trying to figure out why cmake refuse tolink libraries properly and now it is linking everything twice
[20:23] <ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5644435/
[20:24] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: if only you'd spent just one day figuring... there's an obvious correlation
[20:24] <ali1234> mingw takes forever to link OgreMain.dll as well
[20:25] <ali1234> i mean 10 minutes just to link
[20:25] <ali1234> on linux it takes about 5 seconds
[20:27]  * SuperEngineer remembers the "good ol' days" of compliling & linking in Cliiper
[20:31] <Myrtti> I recon the selection for the UK customers of Netflix is somehow really crippled
[20:31] <popey> yeah
[20:31] <Myrtti> because even Finland has better
[20:31] <Myrtti> I totally watched Dune from Netflix
[20:32] <mungbean> still feeding baby, so the dune dvd is still in thestorage boxx:(
[20:50] <mungbean> found my dune dvd, ooh special edition
[20:53] <mungbean> lost the dvd remote :(
[20:58] <Myrtti> http://retrominer.com/
[20:59] <dwatkins> haha, is there a network interface for the NES, though?
[21:00] <SuperEngineer> bfn folks
[21:07] <dwatkins> ah I see, cunning
[21:07]  * dwatkins assumes the Pi is more powerful than the NES, but it was an interesting challenge
[22:18] <mungbean> can't get this tune out of my head http://www.gruffalo.com/chorus/index.html