[03:21] <micahg> len-1304: ok, will look at uploading tonight, you might need to poke someone in -release to get it out of -proposed though since we're in beta freeze
[03:34] <len-1304> Ok
[03:35] <len-1304> micahg, Thank you.
[04:20] <micahg> len-1304: hrm, MailReader seems wrong as Firefox is a web client, not a mail client (I'm guessing you don't seed one by default)
[04:21] <micahg> TerminalEmulator=Terminal should work as Xubuntu has that
[04:54] <len-1304> When I use Terminal I get a dialog asking me to choose a terminal.
[04:54] <len-1304> When I choose one It puts the text in the user file I put in.
[04:54] <len-1304> micahg, Yes we don't have a mail client.
[04:55] <micahg> ok, do you think studio needs a mail client?
[04:56] <len-1304> We have not had one as long as I can remember. Most people I know use a web client.
[04:57] <len-1304> A web client allows using it mobile
[04:58] <len-1304> We will not be adding one for R cycle for sure though.
[04:58] <len-1304> micahg, ^
[04:58] <micahg> ok, so mailto links work with Firefox set?
[04:59] <len-1304> Probably not, should I rather leave it unset then?
[04:59] <micahg> idk, maybe experiment?
[04:59] <len-1304> Mailto links don't work either way.
[05:00] <micahg> hrm, maybe leave it unset then?
[05:00] <len-1304> But there is a mailer item in our menu, right now it gives a dialog asking where the mailer client is.
[05:01] <micahg> right, but does setting to Firefox DTRT?  and what mailer item?, maybe that should be removed
[05:01] <len-1304> IDK where the menu item came from
[05:02] <Len-nb> OK, I'll unset it
[05:06] <Len-nb> micahg, Ok, mailreader is unset
[05:15] <Len-nb> micahg, the mailer menu item is part of exo-open
[05:17] <micahg> right...
[05:17] <Len-nb> I don't think I should remove that
[05:17] <micahg> I think the idea is to have a sane default if there's a mail reader
[05:19] <Len-nb> anything wrong with leaving it unset then? micahg?
[05:20] <micahg> technically, no, but you're just guaranteeing a popup when they click on the exo item
[05:20] <Len-nb> Ya better than having a new browser tab that is no help
[05:21] <micahg> it's your user experience, I'm just the upload monkey :)
[05:21] <Len-nb> A popup tells the user there is no client
[05:22] <micahg> if you're happy with that, it's fine :)
[05:22] <Len-nb> I'm not making a decision to include a mail client at this point though
[05:22] <Len-nb> ok lets get it done, file manger and terminal are important
[05:24] <micahg> FWIW, I think there's a way to make Firefox work with mailto for stuff like gmail and the like, but not sure if it's worth doing that at the moment
[05:24] <Len-nb> Not everyone uses any one mail service
[05:24] <micahg> right
[05:25] <Len-nb> The best I can get with mine is the login prompt
[05:35] <micahg> Len-nb: uploaded
[05:35] <len-1304> Ok, so I go to #ubuntu-release then? and ask what?
[05:36] <len-1304> micahg, ^
[05:36] <len-1304> I say it is in proposed then?
[05:38] <micahg> hrm, it might still just migrate
[05:38] <len-1304> I'm putting an pointer to the bug anyway.
[05:38] <micahg> len-1304: you'll have to ask for it to be accepted
[05:39] <micahg> archive is frozen
[05:40] <len-1304> micahg, I have asked
[05:48] <len-1304> micahg, having said I can't get mailto to work with squirrelmail... I just figured it out :) Helps me but not Studio.
[06:00] <micahg> :)
[12:49] <madeinkobaia> Hi all, the banner preview for Google+ is on the ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-resources/art branch (drafts folder) : )
[12:50] <zequence> madeinkobaia: cool
[12:50] <madeinkobaia> : ) Hi zequence
[12:51] <zequence> hi
[12:52] <zequence> madeinkobaia: nice work!
[12:52] <madeinkobaia> Thanks a lot : )
[12:53] <zequence> I like the wave you added 
[12:53] <zequence> We were thinking about something like that to emphezise what Studio is about
[12:53] <madeinkobaia> Great, yes it gives a graphical dynamic
[13:00] <zequence> madeinkobaia: I like all of the material. I wouldn't mind using this right now. Also, it seems like something that would work for our next LTS, but perhaps then it would be nice to modify it a little. 
[13:01] <zequence> Just to give it fresh feeling once LTS comes around
[13:02] <zequence> I'd rather like to add this type of style to our website too
[13:03] <madeinkobaia> Ok, I was thinking you need something quickly for the social networks
[14:35] <zequence> len-1304: I'm doing some updating on our Team Structure. I'm appointing madeinkobaia as our art lead. smartboyhw will be our release manager
[14:35] <len-1304> Sure, works for me.
[14:36] <zequence> len-1304: I'll also want to add smartboyhw to our development team. I feel he's better in sync with how that works now, and he shouldn't be touching the source unless there's a reason (like when needing to fix a bug, and no one else is around)
[14:36] <len-1304> zequence, I don't know if you are keeping notes but it has been suggested we ship parted... not just on the ISO but to install as well
[14:36] <zequence> len-1304: We don't have any partition manager at all?
[14:37] <zequence> If no, I agree
[14:37] <len-1304> I don't see it in my menu.
[14:38] <zequence> len-1304: I kind of picture you as being responsible for desktop functionality, since you are doing most of the work on that
[14:38] <len-1304> I don't mind
[14:45] <len-1304> zequence, new version of our settings package today.
[14:46] <len-1304> zequence, as part of that update, we came across the question about a mail reader.
[14:47] <len-1304> I am not sure why we don't ship one. (I don't use one and so don't care personally)
[14:47] <len-1304> But I am guessing it is the same as why we don't have a word processor etc.
[14:48] <zequence> If we ship those, we should either use what Xubuntu uses, or use really light weight alternatives
[14:48] <zequence> Do they include Libre Office (that would be too much IMO)
[14:49] <len-1304> That is just it, they have abiword, but anyone who needs a word processor would install libre office anyway.
[14:50] <len-1304> So why provide anything?
[14:51] <len-1304> We already have an office sw installer, maybe just add mail clients that way too.
[14:51] <len-1304> A lot of people use some sort of web mail client anyway.
[14:53] <zequence> len-1304: sw isntaller sounds good
[14:53] <zequence> It's probably something publishing would want, btw
[14:54] <len-1304> Well there is one in office too., but some of those things could be duplicated in publishing... but really the default place for a word processor is in office.
[14:59] <zequence> Sure
[15:42] <zequence> ok, just became member of Debian Multimedia Team :)
[15:47] <len-1304> whats next? :)
[15:48] <zequence> len-1304: I'll start doing some packaging for them. Probably some puredata libraries. Should be simple enough. 
[15:48] <len-1304> Good start
[15:48] <zequence> I think I want to see about what would be the best way to package jackd though
[15:48] <zequence> Considering the problems with realtimeprivilege, and groups
[15:49] <zequence> We might need to introduce a new group, and make it default on Debian, Ubuntu and other derivatives
[15:52] <zequence> realtime is one that is suggested. It makes sense for realtime but not much else
[15:52] <zequence> firewire devices need audio group atm
[15:52] <zequence> Maybe that could be changed to "multimedia"
[16:06] <len-1304> I am still not understanding what the problem with the audio group is.
[16:08] <len-1304> As long as the audio servers are in user space...
[16:09] <zequence> len-1304: According to Ubuntu, it's bad security policy to have the users in audio group, or something. It feels like it's been hijacked by pulseaudio
[16:09] <len-1304> any group will be a possible problem for remote logins
[16:09] <len-1304> Why? what is the security problem?
[16:10] <zequence> len-1304: Don't ask me
[16:10] <zequence> :)
[16:10] <len-1304> Maybe that is the case for the average desktop user where pulse is the only sound server.
[16:11] <len-1304> but where the user must be able to stop and start sound servers, even if RT was run under some other group, the user would need to be able to control pulse.
[16:12] <zequence> firewire devices point to audio group, but perhaps they should have their own group, a new one called firewire. and realtime privilege to realtime
[16:12] <len-1304> The jack-pa bridge should be RT so there would still be a group shared by pa and other audio stuff
[16:13] <len-1304> Should a strictly video FW device have audio or rt? Or just audio devices?
[16:14] <len-1304> Doing something blanket for FW devices seems wrong too.
[16:15] <zequence> Are you maybe mixing things up?
[16:15] <len-1304> Audio is inherently a low latency or RT process. so really the audio group makes sense
[16:15] <zequence> AFAIK, applications want realtime, and if the user has the privilege, the apps will get it
[16:15] <zequence> firewire devices can't be run, unless the user has the athority. Currently, the athority is given through audio group. It could be anything
[16:16] <len-1304> SO the same is true for a camera too?
[16:16] <zequence> I have no idea
[16:16] <zequence> I only know about the specific devices that ffado needs privilege for, and those are listed in the udev rules file
[16:17] <zequence> You can use firewire devices without rt privilege, but not without being in audio group as the udev rules file grants permission through that group
[16:18] <zequence> So, the audio group problem is not only limited to realtime
[16:19] <len-1304> Does PA use RT priv for it's normal operation.
[16:20] <len-1304> Lets say we have an RT group. Now in order for jack to have access to the device would it still need to be in the audio group?
[16:20] <len-1304> If not, why does PA need to be in the audio group?
[16:23] <zequence> Not using the audio group, I dont' think.
[16:24] <zequence> I have no idea
[16:24] <len-1304> audio:x:29:pulse,joe why is pulse in the audio group if it doesn't need it?
[16:25] <zequence> pulse is not in the audio group because of RT anyway
[16:25] <zequence> What makes you think it doesn't need the group
[16:25] <len-1304> No, because it is there if jack is installed or not
[16:26] <len-1304> I am just wondering why.
[16:26] <len-1304> My thought is that if pulse needs it then how can jackd run without it? (though not in RT)
[16:27] <zequence> To get rtprio and memlock, you just let /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf point to another group, and make the user member of it
[16:27] <len-1304> My thought is that jackd should have to be both a part of the audio group and a part of the RT group
[16:28] <len-1304> the audio group would give access to the device and the rt access to rt.
[16:29] <len-1304> So it would still be proper for FW devices/drivers to need audio group.
[16:32] <zequence> jackd is not a member of any group
[16:33] <zequence> pulse is member of audio group. The user doens't need to be a member of audio group as long as the other two configs point to other groups
[16:33] <zequence> such as, for example, realtime and firewire
[16:33] <zequence> pulse has no interest in firewire devices
[16:34] <zequence> and to my knowledge, has no need for rt prio either, through the user group, anywayu
[16:41] <len-1304> jack is a member of whatever the user is.
[16:41] <len-1304> But, the question is still why does pulse need the audio group?
[16:42] <zequence> pulse is a user, btw. jack is not.
[16:42] <len-1304> If the user can access alsa direct without being the the audio group then pulse should not need it either
[16:42] <zequence> While of course, pulse the app is not the user.
[16:43] <len-1304> So pulse is in the audio group just in case it runs system wide?
[16:44] <len-1304> but then if it needs audio group for that then the user should need audio group for a user space pulse server as well.
[16:46] <zequence> As it is now, pulse is a member of audio group, the user is not. And for some reason, the user should not. This has nothing to do with either jack of firewire configuration
[16:46] <zequence> So, to fix jack and firewire, one way to do it is add one or two new groups, that the user *is* a member of by default
[16:46] <len-1304> perhaps pulse does not need to be either.
[16:47] <zequence> A perfectly good question to ask Ubuntu or pulse devs, I guess
[16:52] <len-1304> This page: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documentation/User/PerfectSetup gives some info.
[16:53] <len-1304> Look for the section "Should users be in the "audio" group?"
[16:53] <len-1304> We are "group" 2
[16:54] <len-1304> It says "ast user switching doesn't work properly if users are in the "audio" group." 
[16:54] <len-1304> s/ast/fast
[16:56] <len-1304> Reading that, I would say the user running jackd(bus) should be in the audio group if they are running real time or not.
[16:57] <len-1304> The user running jack would not want another user to suddenly have access to the sound device anyway.
[17:00] <len-1304> The user with audio group overrides a user without. That sounds like a good feature in a pro audio system to me.
[17:02] <len-1304> zequence, having a user in the audio group breaks the expected operation that two sessions can be open and when one is made active the audio access dynamically follows.
[17:05] <len-1304> So if I have a session for user len open and am streaming audio to pulse from a web browser, and then select switch user and login joe as well, now the joe session is being controlled by the KB/mouse then joe has access to the audio IF. If I switch back to the len session audio should follow me there.
[17:05] <len-1304> I don't know if any of this makes sense. But using a user in the audio group seems to me to break something we want to avoid anyway.
[17:07] <len-1304> My opinion is that having the pro audio user in the audio group is correct even if there is another group for RT.
[17:12] <zequence> len-1304: All of that only affects pulseaudio, since whatever group you use with jack, that would be user specific
[17:12] <zequence> What you are saying is basically, jack users are out of luck, and need to administer groups manually
[17:15] <zequence> My goal is to make pro audio possible without additional configs on any Debian derived distro
[17:16] <zequence> That has been my goal all along. 
[17:18] <zequence> or, to clarify, no group is ever used with jack. jack wants to use rtprio and memlock, and those are administered through a group of any choice
[17:27] <zequence> the audio group is in no way related to getting jack to work
[17:27] <zequence> other than currently, the package adds a file which points to audio group. 
[18:42] <madeinkobaia> Be back tomorrow, see u all :)
[19:54] <em_> Im looking for insights on thermal problems
[19:54] <em_> hello???
[19:55] <em_> ping zequence
[19:56] <em_> !ping zequence
[19:58] <em_> everybody seems to be asleep...
[20:01] <zequence> em_: What kind of problems are you having?
[20:02] <zequence> 4 min is a short time to expect anyone to answer ;)
[20:02] <zequence> Might take hours, or sometimes days depending on who is available
[20:02] <em_> Hi, Wow, thanks...
[20:03] <em_> I seldom use irc, but when I have it's usually very active
[20:03] <zequence> em_: And, this is not really a support channel
[20:03] <zequence> We have #ubuntustudio for that
[20:03] <em_> I want to do some testing and file some bug reports
[20:03] <em_> but I want to make sure that I am doing it properly so that the effort is not wasted
[20:03] <zequence> Ok, that would belong on this channel :)
[20:04] <zequence> So, what kind of bug are you having?
[20:04] <em_> okay greta
[20:04] <em_> great
[20:04] <em_> two bugs, both are specific to the hardware
[20:04] <em_> one bug is overheating = 81C
[20:05] <em_> other bug is audio input -- totally flakey
[20:05] <em_> I would expect that these are know issues, but not sure how to search for them
[20:05] <zequence> What is overheating?
[20:07] <em_> PSensors reports cpu and video are both very hot.  video seems to run about 2 degress hotter so I suspect it may be source of problem
[20:08] <em_> its a radion (sp) video,  I have tried both the generic and propriatery drivers
[20:08] <em_> under load this laptop gets as high as 85 degress celsis yow!
[20:09] <zequence> I've seen overheating problems with AMD, but only with free drivers. Are you sure this is an OS problem? I recently blew out some dust from my laptop fan, and dramatically decreased the temp. I mean, really much, and I didn't see the dust with my eyes
[20:09] <zequence> That is, I've only seen problems with AMD graphic cards
[20:10] <em_> yes, defintely os problem...  the newer the os the hotter it runs
[20:11] <zequence> I would begin by filing a bug against the kernel, and then the AMD driver. Don't think there's a point in filing a bug towards the proprietary driver at launchpad
[20:11] <zequence> You could mention in the bug reports that there are two of them, and link to each other in the comments later
[20:11] <em_> on 10.10 average temp is 55C (generic),  on 12.04 average temp is 65C (low-latency),  on 12.10 avg temp is about 70C  on 13.04 avg temp is 80C  these are at idle
[20:12] <zequence> How about when you are doing something actively. Is the difference still as large?
[20:13] <zequence> em_: Just for the sake of minimizing possibilities, if this is a laptop, I would open up the back, and then blow through the fan hard a few times. If you see dust, it will make a difference
[20:13] <em_> in active use on 13.04 it peaks at about 86C   temps that high make me nervous.  case gets very hot to the touch
[20:13] <zequence> It's important to open the back, or the dust will fly around all over inside
[20:14] <zequence> em_: As for the audio input. Is this only on pulseaudio, or do you have problems with jack too?
[20:15] <em_> on 10.10  fan hardly even comes on.  on 12.04 fan runs quietly.  on 13.04 fan is screaming banshee.  this is all on the same laptop, all within 5 minutes of each other..  e.g.  I have all of these oses currently installed multi-boot
[20:16] <em_> I dont beleive it is a fan/dust problem.   actually I have opened the case and fan is inaccessible without major disassembly...  leary of going that far.  inside seems pretty clean anyway
[20:17] <zequence> Seems clean is not the same as clean. So, if it is a laptop, I would really encourage you to blow the fan clean, just for the sake of science
[20:18] <em_> I believe it affects both similarly.  again, it is very os specific.  but!  I installed same os version on different brand laptop and both of these problems do not exist.  these problems are specific to this particualr laptop.  HP dv7-4270us
[20:19] <em_> logic says that if 10.10 does not even turn on the fan, and 13.04 the fan is maxed out, and this is identical machine with identical amount of dust...  then the dust is not the primary factor
[20:21] <zequence> It is machine specific, absolutely. The cause for the diff in release is unkown. One could be a heavier use of system resources on newer release, which would case a higher temp
[20:22] <zequence> One could be a kernel bug
[20:22] <zequence> To exclude the first, blow out the fan
[20:22] <zequence> Once excluded, file a bug against the kernel
[20:22] <em_> ok, thanks, where do I go to file a kernal bug?  launchpad or elsewhere?
[20:23] <zequence> There's a command line tool for that
[20:23] <zequence> I'm not on Ubuntu right now, but I belive it's ubuntu-bug or ubuntubug
[20:23] <zequence> So: ubuntu-bug <yourkernel>
[20:23] <zequence> The kernel would either be linux-generic, or linux-lowlatency
[20:24] <zequence> I prefer you file it against linux-generic, if the symptom is the same on both
[20:24] <em_> oh,  okay, thanks...   thats very helpful
[20:24] <zequence> linux-lowlatency is principally the same as -generic
[20:24] <zequence> em_: About the audio input problem, do you only use pulseaudio with it?
[20:25] <zequence> It would be helpful to know if the problem is only with pulseaudio or not
[20:25] <zequence> If yes, then you would do: ubuntu-bug pulseaudio
[20:25] <zequence> I may be remembering the name of the tool wrong
[20:26] <zequence> No, it's "ubuntu-bug" allright
[20:26] <em_> I think the problem is the same with jack too, but I seldom use jack, I can retest it though and see
[20:27] <zequence> em_: If it's the same with jack, the problem is most likely with alsa
[20:27] <zequence> I dont' know what your problem is though
[20:27] <em_> ok, that makes sense
[20:27] <em_> I think its to do with this specific audio chip, it the intel HD audo
[20:28] <em_> alright, thank you very much.  I think that info will get me started
[20:29] <em_> any further thoughts?
[20:31] <zequence> em_: When you make a report, just look through carefully the alternatives you get whether a bug already has been reported. Also, doing a couple of web searches on your model, audio chip, Ubuntu release, kernel version, words like bug, overheating, etc, might show some results
[20:32] <zequence> Searching on the symptoms is of course a good idea
[20:32] <em_> for testing, does it matter which version of the beta I'm using...  I see they have dailies as well as the initial release.  should I download the daily for doing the testing or is the one I already downloaded good enough?
[20:32] <zequence> em_: Right now, the kind of testing we prefer is doing release upgrades from Quantal to Raring. Beta1 is preferred
[20:33] <zequence> But, if you just want to try it out, and happen to stumble on a bug, it would be great if you reported it, or let us know about it
[20:33] <zequence> in either case, beta1 is preferred
[20:34] <em_> well I've been trying the beta, and the audio works butter but still not usable, whereas the temp is much higher.  so I figured since it is current focus, that filing bugs against it would be more effective than filling against older versions.
[20:34] <zequence> sure
[20:35] <em_> thank you very much I think you have answered all my questions about how to file the bugs.
[20:36] <em_> any final thoughts or shall we call it a day?
[20:39] <zequence> em_: Not really. Don't be a stranger here if you want to continue contributing though. We'll try to help in any way we can
[20:40] <em_> great, THANKS,  happy whatever day it is for you :-)   
[20:40] <zequence> Ah, yeah. It's Easter :). Easter witches day here in Sweden actually
[20:41] <em_> Sweden.... COOL!!!   I love the internet eveybody connected....   Im in Seattle
[20:42] <em_> well, it's been great chatting with you
[20:42] <em_> witches???  you have easter witches???  Ive never heard of such a thing
[20:44] <em_> over hear it's mostly a jesus thing...  except that many people realise it actually has nothing to do with him.   it's a celebration of the end of winter and the rebirth of life.  thats why it is celebrated with eggs.
[20:44] <em_> <<over here
[20:47] <zequence> em_: Churches have their Easter too, but we have a weird tradition with Easter witches, who fly on brooms
[20:47] <zequence> Kids like to dress up like 'em
[20:47] <em_> hmmm,  that sounds like our halloween which is in october
[20:47] <zequence> Easter is older than any know religions probably, yes
[20:48] <zequence> We have halloween too, but dressing up is a tradition we've imported from US, I think
[20:48] <zequence> Not that common with Easter witches anymore though
[20:49] <em_> yes, same with christmas which is really an ancient celebration of the solsctice  (sun's shortest day)
[20:49] <zequence> We still call it Jul, which in English is Jule
[20:49] <zequence> Or Yule, perhaps
[20:50] <zequence> And in Finland, the month of December is called Yule Month, as it was in other nordic countires too in the past
[20:50] <zequence> So, not as Christianized, as the church would have wanted it to be ;)
[20:50] <em_> yes, Yule is a frequently heard name for the christmas season.  I've never inquired about its origin
[20:50] <zequence> It's an old Germanic name
[20:50] <zequence> From Viking times probably
[20:51] <em_> hmmm  that is very interesting.
[20:51] <zequence> Midsummer is probablyu the least Christianized day. Especially here in Sweden
[20:52] <zequence> So, some traditions have survived
[20:52] <zequence> For better or worse
[20:53] <em_> the christian church has lost it's strangle hold on culture, but still has a very strong influence...  just not any longer dominant...
[20:53] <zequence> Ironically, I feel US has is more Christianized than other Lutheran dominant countries
[20:54] <zequence> Just hearing politicians talk about God is something that would never happen here
[20:54] <em_> they call it the "Age of Reason"  it's when people started thinking beyond the dogma.  It actually started in renasiance europe  as you probably already know.
[20:54] <em_> well, there are right now some trends that are very disturbing
[20:55] <em_> but basically a polotician cant get elected if they dont at least pay lip service to christian religion
[20:55] <zequence> That is very, very weird
[20:56] <zequence> If a politician talks about religion here, they won't get taken seriously
[20:56] <em_> refreshing
[20:57] <em_> I think the younger generations are pretty much breaking away from it
[20:57] <zequence> Actually, I think in US there was a big step back with Reagan
[20:58] <em_> but the brain is not such a logical thing...  people are more ruled by emotion and fear than by clear thought
[20:58] <zequence> I think he introduced a lot of the garbage that exists now, that politicians didn't need to worry about before him
[20:59] <zequence> So, in some ways, it's actually a modern thing
[20:59] <zequence> And it comes mostly out of the right wing
[20:59] <em_> kenedy was very controversial for being a catholic...  but my impression is that he kept religion very much out of polotics, so yes reagon was a throw back to "conservative values"
[21:00]  * micahg would comment in an -offtopic channel :)
[21:01] <em_> @micahg  are you saying we should take this somewhere else??   sorry if we abused the channel... nobody else was here...
[21:01] <em_> guess we got carried away
[21:02] <zequence> He's quite right. Some people like to read through history, etc. I need to grab some food anyway
[21:02] <micahg> well, not necessarily, just saying I won't add my 2 cents in a logged channel :)
[21:03] <micahg> (though, yes, I think it really belongs in OT, but zequence is a main contributor, so I won't tell him what to do in the -dev channel :))
[21:03] <zequence> We don't have a off topic channel ourselves, but there is #xubuntu-offtopic that may work
[21:03] <micahg> zequence: if you feel the need, you can ask for #ubuntustudio-offtopic to be created in #ubuntu-irc or something like that)
[21:04] <micahg> though what's OT is relative, -motu can get very OT sometimes
[21:04] <em_> okay, well it's been wonderful, chatting.   
[21:05] <em_> I guess I will go file some bugs.