/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/04/04/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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* beuno combs his hair16:55
smartboyhw!;16:56
smartboyhws/!;/!?/16:56
smartboyhwIs it the CC meeting with Kubuntu?16:57
beunoit is16:57
smartboyhwLOL you don't need to comb your hair;P16:58
smartboyhwRiddell it's about time16:58
smartboyhwScottK apachelogger_ Darkwing jussi JontheEcdina...16:59
pleia2hi everyone, time for the CC meeting :)17:00
pleia2#startmeeting17:00
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Apr  4 17:00:28 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.17:00
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired17:00
pleia2#chair Gwaihir beuno17:00
meetingologyCurrent chairs: Gwaihir beuno pleia217:00
smartboyhwo/17:00
pleia2#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda17:00
pleia2the only scheduled agenda item is the catch-up with the kubuntu council folks17:01
smartboyhwI pinged them already17:02
Riddellhi17:02
pleia2#topic Kubuntu Council catch-up17:02
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Council catch-up
beunohi all17:03
pleia2so during these catch-ups we pretty much just ask for the team to share with us status and thoughts about their project and team17:03
pleia2see if there are any blockers the CC can assist with17:03
pleia2anyone is welcome to start :) or we can wait a couple minutes for some others to join us17:04
smartboyhwRiddell: kick the rollercoaster:)17:04
Riddellhmm17:05
Riddellthere's been a notable tendancy by canonical recently to take significant decisions17:05
Riddelldropping UDS then organising a replacement vUDS at a week's notice was very bad community management17:05
beunoindeed17:06
* pleia2 nods17:06
smartboyhw+117:06
* smartboyhw remembers writing angry blogposts about tht17:06
Riddellannouncing a change from X to an internal project they've been working on for some time was very badly handled17:07
pleia2I've been working with Jono and Rick on some of these things to see how we can improve communication community-wide, are there ways these things impacted Kubuntu that we should know about specifically?17:07
Riddellsome nice friends of mine in KDE have put a lot of time into making lightdm work with kde assuming it'll work with wayland and now will have to do all that work himself, he could have been told long ago17:07
* pleia2 nods17:07
pleia2thanks, having specific examples helps us a lot17:08
Riddelland it's just really worrying technically, who knows how Mir will clash with KWin and Plasma, it won't be easy I'm sure17:08
beunoRiddell, so you're worried that making a KDE flavor is going to be increasingly harder?17:09
Riddellyes17:09
Riddellthe dates for the next vUDS haven't been announced, but something has been added to the S release schedule which shows a different date from what everyone was expecting17:10
smartboyhw_What did I niss?17:10
macosmartboyhw_: we dont know what the last you saw was17:11
maco(never disconnected)17:11
smartboyhw_Riddel talking about KWin17:11
Riddellthe website continues to be a pinch point, we have some people wanting to translate it into various languages and do need a database dump but that ticket has gone unanswered by the sysadmins17:12
macosmartboyhw_: thats it17:12
smartboyhw_good17:12
RiddellI'd like to just move the website to our own sever since the sysadmins have a history of being very unresponsive17:12
smartboyhw_Riddell: +117:13
Riddellbut I've no idea if that will be allowed17:13
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beunoRiddell, I'm sure that can be discussed. I'd bet Canonical would still own the domain, but delegate DNS17:13
beunoand we can certainly chase up those dates for an announcement17:14
beunoRiddell, to some extent, I think there's going to be a lot of core focus shifting to the phone and tablet17:14
beunoso there's going to be less focus on all the desktops, for a little while17:15
Riddelldropping UDS was obviously done as a cost saving measure but it was spun as helping "transparency", that grates, honesty works best17:15
macolde has had a tablet ui for years17:16
maco*kde17:16
* maco 1-hand type w/ food in other hand17:16
Riddellwanting to drop 6 monthly releases was obviously discussed internally to canonical long before it got presented to the outside world, I'm not sure why there's a need to keep things hidden17:16
beunoso17:17
beunoI don't think the primary goal of dropping in-person UDS was cost-savings17:17
Quintasan\o17:17
beunothey were getting less and less useful17:17
beunothey could of just made them smaller17:17
Riddelland changing the name releaeses to "interim releases" also grates17:17
beunoat a fraction of the cost17:17
beunomaking them virtual solves a lot of problems17:18
beunoit gives them more transparency, opens up for more participation and we can do them more often17:18
beunowhich maps better to the current engineering pace17:18
smartboyhwbeuno: And causes some more problems17:18
beunosure, nothing's free  :)17:18
Riddellour engineering pace is 6 monthly - Mark spent a lot of time lobbying KDE to do 6 monthly releases17:19
* beuno nods17:19
pleia2I just confirned that vUDS will be May 14-16 http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/17:19
pleia2(thanks mhall119)17:19
pleia2hasn't been announced as such, so we can nudge them about that too17:20
Riddellthe ubuntu download page takes donations with an option for "better support for kubuntu", although canonical still puts in significant resources to kubuntu there is no indication that donations on that page go to "better support for kubuntu"17:21
beunoRiddell, as for internal discussions about speeding up development, they were done to first understand the impact on the internal engineering teams, and be able to come up with a decent proposal17:21
beunowhich I think is actually reasonable17:22
mhall119pleia2: yeah, we just got confirmation yesterday, and jono's been sick, hence no announcement yet17:22
beunoand very non-evil17:22
smartboyhwbeuno: I do think they should have tell us earlier though.17:23
beunosmartboyhw, earliear than what?17:23
smartboyhwbeuno: midway through the internal discussiom17:24
beunoas far as I can tell, there's like a 30 day gap between serious internal discussions and kicking off the public one17:24
beunosmartboyhw, that's arbitrary and flaimbait  ;)17:24
smartboyhwThey should hold a "consultation" thing17:24
beunoklook17:24
beunothe kick off email wasn't great17:24
beunoit really was't17:24
pleia2and looking back, it does seem that the community discussion was effective, a lot of great points were brought up, it was a real discussion and the tech board ruled accordingly17:24
beunowasn't17:24
beunobut, it was a genuine discussion17:25
beunoand the tech board decided17:25
beunothat's the community process working17:25
beunoI can relate to the bitter feeling on how it got kicked off17:25
beunobut reality is that in the end it went through the right process17:25
smartboyhwI do think that "support" thing is much more strange than the release process proposal17:25
pleia2yeah, initially it didn't feel like a conversation, but I think it turned out ok17:26
pleia2so I think everything brought up here are things we've been working on and understand17:26
Riddellpleia2: the donations?17:26
pleia2Riddell: jono is looking into where they actually go17:27
beunoRiddell, we can certainly check up on what the situation is for the kubuntu donations. My guess would be that it barely covers servers and bandwidth17:27
beunobut some more transparency there may help17:27
DarkwingSorry, I'm late17:27
pleia2I assumed it was for release team working with the flavors, spinning up isos, QA time and infrastructure and hosting17:27
smartboyhwDarkwing :)17:27
Riddellbeuno: those are paid for anyway, the donations are for "better support"17:27
Riddellpleia2: ^^17:28
pleia2right, that's why he's looking into it for us17:28
beunoRiddell, well, paid for, the money comes from somewhere, right?17:28
mhall119Riddell: does the Kubuntu community have any recommendations as to what "better support" they would like to see?17:28
Riddellif they want to take donations for what they already provide then call it "continued support"17:28
beunobut we should be able to understand what the situation is17:28
pleia2(to be honest, it's odd to me that people would donate to a company at all, but here we are :))17:28
mhall119Canonical is an unusual kind of company :)17:29
pleia2I like tax write-offs!17:29
Riddellmhall119: sysadmins who are responsive?  a dedicated release manager?17:29
pleia2Riddell: dedicated for flavors?17:29
pleia2or bringing back a dedicated one for everything?17:29
smartboyhwRiddell we have that for Ubunru Studio (me)17:29
macoRiddell: i suppose if it meant directing more people to dedicate more of their QA and whatnot hours to kubuntu testing...?17:29
mhall119Riddell: can you send jono an email with those requests/recommendations?17:30
Riddellflavours are everything, I consider the flagship Ubuntu as much a flavour as anything else17:30
smartboyhwpleia2: Bring back skaet:)17:30
beunoright, most of those things are a lot of money17:30
Riddellmaco: that would be good17:30
beunowe should understand what the donation range is like first17:30
Riddellmhall119: it's too low down my priority list for that I'm afraid17:30
pleia2can someone else on the team do it?17:31
pleia2I honestly don't know what the kubuntu team expects from these donations, so a list would be super helpful17:31
mhall119+117:31
Riddellmy preferred solution would be just to transfer it to our bank account17:31
pleia2since it's for all the flavors and most don't have bank accounts, I don't think that's a very practical solution17:32
pleia2and there are clearly internal things canonical can do to improve things (if you'd tell us what they are)17:32
smartboyhwpleia2: I do remember Scott Lavender + knome (maybe + zequence) has talked about some flavour team17:34
smartboyhwWhich manages all flavours17:34
DarkwingI think what we are looking for is, when someone donated to kubuntu, what happens? is it grouped into a flavors list or, does Canonical take it?17:34
pleia2but as beuno said, we'll try to work with jono to see how much money we're talking about and nail down where it's going and what the intention was17:34
DarkwingWe tried that a couple weeks ago17:34
pleia2it was certainly a surprise to all of us that it was on the list of donation options without any clear explaining of what they meant17:35
pleia2Darkwing: right, that's why you're bringing it to the CC now, so we can help you :)17:35
Riddellgroovy, I think that's all from me and I need to run off for something non-computery17:36
pleia2thanks Riddell!17:36
Darkwing:) uh huh. You asked for a list of what we were looking for. While we might be different from other flavors in that we have a bank account, we would like to manage our donations.17:36
pleia2Darkwing: can you prepare a list?17:36
pleia2or is it just "cash"?17:36
DarkwingA list of how much was donated or?...17:37
pleia2I think a list of internal ways Canonical an improve flavor support would be a much more effective approach for everyone17:37
smartboyhwpleia2 maybe just17:37
smartboyhwcash17:37
pleia2Darkwing: a list of things you'd like to see Canonical do to improve support17:37
pleia2smartboyhw: I think that's very unlikely17:37
mhall119cash would be hard, since you'd have to say "Kubuntu gets x% of the donated money"17:37
smartboyhwHowever I think the donation amount is very small17:37
DarkwingI think the cash that was donated in Kubuntu's name.17:37
pleia2smartboyhw: most of the flavors can't accept it17:38
mhall119I don't think it tracks specific flavors, just flavor support in general17:38
smartboyhwActually who here has touched that page and donated something?17:38
DarkwingAs for support, I think most everyone is not happy witht eh quickness that sysadmins move.17:38
pleia2Darkwing: the text is "Better support for flavours like Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu" - it doesn't specify17:38
smartboyhwDarkwing: +1000017:38
Darkwingmhall119: That's part of the questions... How is that money delt with17:38
DarkwingI would like to know what that was going for.17:39
pleia2Darkwing: if you get a ticket that's stuck in RT and they haven't been able to help on IRC, you can always forward it to us to look into (we helped the forums folks get things pushed along last year)17:39
mhall119Darkwing: agreed, jono is already looking into getting that information17:39
pleia2Darkwing: right, this is all what I said we're working with jono on :)17:39
Darkwingmhall119: I know, he said that a couple weeks ago.17:39
mhall119Darkwing: also remember the community team, looking after you guys and making sure you get the best support from Canonical we can provide is part of our jobs17:39
DarkwingOkay, Then I'll sit back and wait some more.17:40
Darkwing:) I know.17:40
mhall119you can ping me any time17:40
pleia2thanks mhall119 :)17:40
mhall119:)17:40
DarkwingThanks mhall119 and pleia217:40
pleia2so, how's Kubuntu aside from Canonical issues? :)17:41
pleia2gonna be awesome for 13.04? :D17:41
DarkwingIt's always awesome :P17:41
pleia2great!17:41
smartboyhwGreat!!!17:41
DarkwingWe are in the middle of some council elections right now.17:41
smartboyhwthree of the seats are to be elected17:42
pleia2ok, just let us know if you need help (I seem to recall we've helped set up polls in the past)17:42
smartboyhw4 are running17:42
DarkwingScottK is running it so, I doubt we'll have an issue with a poll but, we'll let you know17:42
pleia2ok great17:42
DarkwingIs there anything you guys need from us?17:43
smartboyhwDarkwing…17:43
DarkwingYes smartboyhw17:43
smartboyhwI thought it will be pleia2 asking this17:43
smartboyhw:p17:43
pleia2Darkwing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing might be worth a review17:43
pleia2just some tips to make the process smoother17:44
pleia2smartboyhw: everyone is welcome to ask questions of each other at these meetings17:44
Darkwingpleia2: I'll pass it on to Scott17:44
DarkwingDoes the CC need anything from teh KC?17:44
Darkwing*the17:45
smartboyhwyep17:45
smartboyhwIndeed I am going to ask sth later17:45
pleia2Darkwing: last time Riddell sent the list to the CC, we approved and sent it back for a vote of the community17:46
pleia2(historically we've never vetoed anyone)17:46
* Darkwing raises an eyebrow17:46
pleia2then Mark set up the poll17:46
pleia2this is how all the councils work17:46
DarkwingOkay, I think we are using teh CIVwhatever poll17:46
DarkwingBut, I'll pass that on.17:46
pleia2yep, that's what we used for the 2010 elections17:47
smartboyhwpleia2: Currently it is David Wonderly (darkwing) Philip Muscovac (yofel) Rohan Garg (shadeslayer) and one more (forgotten)17:47
Darkwingsmartboyhw: I'll pull it together in an email :)17:47
DarkwingBut, Valorie Zimmerman is the 4th so far17:48
pleia2(of course this process is always up for discussion if people are concerned, it's just how it's always been done)17:48
smartboyhwDarkwing ah yeah I forgotten her:(17:48
pleia2anything else?17:48
DarkwingNot from our end that I know of.17:48
pleia2great, thanks for coming Darkwing :)17:48
pleia2#topic Any other business17:49
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
DarkwingSorry I was late.17:49
smartboyhwo/17:49
beunosorry, got called off17:49
pleia2anything else for this meeting?17:50
smartboyhwEr aren't o/ the syntax in asking questions?17:50
smartboyhwo/17:50
beunosmartboyhw, maybe. What's up?17:50
pleia2smartboyhw: you can just ask questions :)17:51
smartboyhwJust asking, is tmr the deadline for Regional Membership Board applications?17:51
smartboyhwpleia2, got used to it.17:52
pleia2smartboyhw: yes17:52
smartboyhwHow many people are running?17:52
pleia2http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/03/22/ubuntu-membership-board-call-for-nominations/17:52
pleia2has all the details17:52
smartboyhwI know, I sent in mine:)17:52
pleia2ok, that also lists how many seats are open, and the deadline17:53
smartboyhwHow maby people are running for this?17:53
pleia2We’re looking for 5 Ubuntu Members who can participate in the 12:00 UTC meetings:17:53
pleia2And for 4 Members who can participate in the 22:00 meetings:17:53
cprofittit was 9 total seats right?17:53
smartboyhws/maby/many/17:53
pleia2so yes, 9 seats total17:53
smartboyhwcprofitt: Yeah17:54
cprofittend of nominations is tomorrow17:54
hggdhat 1200 UTC17:54
pleia2we don't know how many people have applied if that's what you're asking, all nominations are being collected by the board, they will send them to us at 1200 tomorrow17:54
smartboyhwOh.17:54
pleia2you sent your nomination to the board, right?17:55
smartboyhwAlso another question: Why isn't the CC's mailing lists open to public when TB does?17:55
pleia2that was in the instructions17:55
smartboyhwpleia2: yep17:55
pleia2smartboyhw: because we have to deal with private disputes between individuals and teams17:55
smartboyhwI mean the archive (for the mail list question)17:55
pleia2those can't really be public17:55
smartboyhwpleia2: And why wouldnt TB?17:56
pleia2because they control technical direction, we handle private disputes17:56
DarkwingI did have a question pertaining to Ubuntu :)17:56
smartboyhwDarkwing: Just ask.17:56
pleia2for technical direction it's helpful to have input from the whole technical community, for private disputes we need to just dicuss it with folks involved17:56
smartboyhw;P17:56
pleia2people need to know they have a safe space to bring up concerns, etc17:57
DarkwingOne thing I've had a few people here in Indiana ask is with teh Ubuntu Chinese version, is Ubuntu/Canonical going to work with the China Government on censorship software for the OS rolling out there? I had no idea what to tell them.17:57
smartboyhwDarkwing: LOL17:57
pleia2Darkwing: not a clue17:58
cprofittDarkwing: do we even know that there is censorship software in their OS?17:58
smartboyhwAsk in #ubuntukylin-meeting, the project lead (JackYu) is there17:58
pleia2Darkwing: since the deal is between the chinese government and canonical, you probably have to ask canonical17:58
beunoDarkwing, no, there's no plans on Canonical working on censorship software17:58
DarkwingHey, I've been asked by about a dozen people... :)17:58
beunothey Chinese govt, however, will do whatever they like17:58
Darkwingbeuno: Okay thanks.17:58
beunoI don't think they have the intention of adding something like that into an open source OS17:58
beunothey'll probably rely on their existing infrastructure for whatever they want to do17:59
cprofittbeuno: that would have been my guess17:59
beuno(why censor on an OS level when you can censor on the network level?)17:59
smartboyhwlol17:59
DarkwingI think it was more of a question of what Canonical was doing... I don't know if it was a trap or a poor attempt of one but, Now I have an answere17:59
* Darkwing departs to figure out how he broke his system18:00
pleia2ok, hit the hour mark, we'll wrap this up then :)18:00
pleia2thanks everyone18:00
pleia2#endmeeting18:00
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Apr  4 18:00:54 2013 UTC.18:00
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-04-04-17.00.moin.txt18:00
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-04-04-17.00.html18:00
cprofittyes, thanks everyone18:00
smartboyhwDarkwing, see ya (and sorry for your system)18:00
smartboyhwthx beuno, cprofitt, Riddell, pleia2, Darkwinf18:01
smartboyhwpleia2: Sad you aren't running for XPL18:01
beunoby everyone!18:01
pleia2smartboyhw: thanks, but I already use all my hours in the day :)18:01
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ScottKDarkwing: I asked about the influence of the Chinese government censorship policies in the Tech Board meeting where they approved the flavor and I was assured by Canonical that there would be one and only one image with identical contents inside and outside China shipping no more than the usual amount of spyware for Ubuntu.18:32
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xnoxDarkwing: the collaboration is with a development group from a university, which are recursively sponsored eventually by the chinese government. But with like all official flavours - all packages are build and signed and published in canonical datacenters and all the installation images are build from that archive in canonical dataceters and signed again. The signing GPG keys are the same as all of the ubuntu archive and ubuntu cd images. Thus if i23:03
xnoxmages or packages in any way modified by a third party post-release, it can be easily verified by checking the GPG signatures and verifying chain of trust.23:03

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