[16:55]  * beuno combs his hair
[16:56] <smartboyhw> !;
[16:56] <smartboyhw> s/!;/!?/
[16:57] <smartboyhw> Is it the CC meeting with Kubuntu?
[16:57] <beuno> it is
[16:58] <smartboyhw> LOL you don't need to comb your hair;P
[16:58] <smartboyhw> Riddell it's about time
[16:59] <smartboyhw> ScottK apachelogger_ Darkwing jussi JontheEcdina...
[17:00] <pleia2> hi everyone, time for the CC meeting :)
[17:00] <pleia2> #startmeeting
[17:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Apr  4 17:00:28 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[17:00] <pleia2> #chair Gwaihir beuno
[17:00] <meetingology> Current chairs: Gwaihir beuno pleia2
[17:00] <smartboyhw> o/
[17:00] <pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:01] <pleia2> the only scheduled agenda item is the catch-up with the kubuntu council folks
[17:02] <smartboyhw> I pinged them already
[17:02] <Riddell> hi
[17:02] <pleia2> #topic Kubuntu Council catch-up
[17:03] <beuno> hi all
[17:03] <pleia2> so during these catch-ups we pretty much just ask for the team to share with us status and thoughts about their project and team
[17:03] <pleia2> see if there are any blockers the CC can assist with
[17:04] <pleia2> anyone is welcome to start :) or we can wait a couple minutes for some others to join us
[17:04] <smartboyhw> Riddell: kick the rollercoaster:)
[17:05] <Riddell> hmm
[17:05] <Riddell> there's been a notable tendancy by canonical recently to take significant decisions
[17:05] <Riddell> dropping UDS then organising a replacement vUDS at a week's notice was very bad community management
[17:06] <beuno> indeed
[17:06]  * pleia2 nods
[17:06] <smartboyhw> +1
[17:06]  * smartboyhw remembers writing angry blogposts about tht
[17:07] <Riddell> announcing a change from X to an internal project they've been working on for some time was very badly handled
[17:07] <pleia2> I've been working with Jono and Rick on some of these things to see how we can improve communication community-wide, are there ways these things impacted Kubuntu that we should know about specifically?
[17:07] <Riddell> some nice friends of mine in KDE have put a lot of time into making lightdm work with kde assuming it'll work with wayland and now will have to do all that work himself, he could have been told long ago
[17:07]  * pleia2 nods
[17:08] <pleia2> thanks, having specific examples helps us a lot
[17:08] <Riddell> and it's just really worrying technically, who knows how Mir will clash with KWin and Plasma, it won't be easy I'm sure
[17:09] <beuno> Riddell, so you're worried that making a KDE flavor is going to be increasingly harder?
[17:09] <Riddell> yes
[17:10] <Riddell> the dates for the next vUDS haven't been announced, but something has been added to the S release schedule which shows a different date from what everyone was expecting
[17:10] <smartboyhw_> What did I niss?
[17:11] <maco> smartboyhw_: we dont know what the last you saw was
[17:11] <maco> (never disconnected)
[17:11] <smartboyhw_> Riddel talking about KWin
[17:12] <Riddell> the website continues to be a pinch point, we have some people wanting to translate it into various languages and do need a database dump but that ticket has gone unanswered by the sysadmins
[17:12] <maco> smartboyhw_: thats it
[17:12] <smartboyhw_> good
[17:12] <Riddell> I'd like to just move the website to our own sever since the sysadmins have a history of being very unresponsive
[17:13] <smartboyhw_> Riddell: +1
[17:13] <Riddell> but I've no idea if that will be allowed
[17:13] <beuno> Riddell, I'm sure that can be discussed. I'd bet Canonical would still own the domain, but delegate DNS
[17:14] <beuno> and we can certainly chase up those dates for an announcement
[17:14] <beuno> Riddell, to some extent, I think there's going to be a lot of core focus shifting to the phone and tablet
[17:15] <beuno> so there's going to be less focus on all the desktops, for a little while
[17:15] <Riddell> dropping UDS was obviously done as a cost saving measure but it was spun as helping "transparency", that grates, honesty works best
[17:16] <maco> lde has had a tablet ui for years
[17:16] <maco> *kde
[17:16]  * maco 1-hand type w/ food in other hand
[17:16] <Riddell> wanting to drop 6 monthly releases was obviously discussed internally to canonical long before it got presented to the outside world, I'm not sure why there's a need to keep things hidden
[17:17] <beuno> so
[17:17] <beuno> I don't think the primary goal of dropping in-person UDS was cost-savings
[17:17] <Quintasan> \o
[17:17] <beuno> they were getting less and less useful
[17:17] <beuno> they could of just made them smaller
[17:17] <Riddell> and changing the name releaeses to "interim releases" also grates
[17:17] <beuno> at a fraction of the cost
[17:18] <beuno> making them virtual solves a lot of problems
[17:18] <beuno> it gives them more transparency, opens up for more participation and we can do them more often
[17:18] <beuno> which maps better to the current engineering pace
[17:18] <smartboyhw> beuno: And causes some more problems
[17:18] <beuno> sure, nothing's free  :)
[17:19] <Riddell> our engineering pace is 6 monthly - Mark spent a lot of time lobbying KDE to do 6 monthly releases
[17:19]  * beuno nods
[17:19] <pleia2> I just confirned that vUDS will be May 14-16 http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/
[17:19] <pleia2> (thanks mhall119)
[17:20] <pleia2> hasn't been announced as such, so we can nudge them about that too
[17:21] <Riddell> the ubuntu download page takes donations with an option for "better support for kubuntu", although canonical still puts in significant resources to kubuntu there is no indication that donations on that page go to "better support for kubuntu"
[17:21] <beuno> Riddell, as for internal discussions about speeding up development, they were done to first understand the impact on the internal engineering teams, and be able to come up with a decent proposal
[17:22] <beuno> which I think is actually reasonable
[17:22] <mhall119> pleia2: yeah, we just got confirmation yesterday, and jono's been sick, hence no announcement yet
[17:22] <beuno> and very non-evil
[17:23] <smartboyhw> beuno: I do think they should have tell us earlier though.
[17:23] <beuno> smartboyhw, earliear than what?
[17:24] <smartboyhw> beuno: midway through the internal discussiom
[17:24] <beuno> as far as I can tell, there's like a 30 day gap between serious internal discussions and kicking off the public one
[17:24] <beuno> smartboyhw, that's arbitrary and flaimbait  ;)
[17:24] <smartboyhw> They should hold a "consultation" thing
[17:24] <beuno> klook
[17:24] <beuno> the kick off email wasn't great
[17:24] <beuno> it really was't
[17:24] <pleia2> and looking back, it does seem that the community discussion was effective, a lot of great points were brought up, it was a real discussion and the tech board ruled accordingly
[17:24] <beuno> wasn't
[17:25] <beuno> but, it was a genuine discussion
[17:25] <beuno> and the tech board decided
[17:25] <beuno> that's the community process working
[17:25] <beuno> I can relate to the bitter feeling on how it got kicked off
[17:25] <beuno> but reality is that in the end it went through the right process
[17:25] <smartboyhw> I do think that "support" thing is much more strange than the release process proposal
[17:26] <pleia2> yeah, initially it didn't feel like a conversation, but I think it turned out ok
[17:26] <pleia2> so I think everything brought up here are things we've been working on and understand
[17:26] <Riddell> pleia2: the donations?
[17:27] <pleia2> Riddell: jono is looking into where they actually go
[17:27] <beuno> Riddell, we can certainly check up on what the situation is for the kubuntu donations. My guess would be that it barely covers servers and bandwidth
[17:27] <beuno> but some more transparency there may help
[17:27] <Darkwing> Sorry, I'm late
[17:27] <pleia2> I assumed it was for release team working with the flavors, spinning up isos, QA time and infrastructure and hosting
[17:27] <smartboyhw> Darkwing :)
[17:27] <Riddell> beuno: those are paid for anyway, the donations are for "better support"
[17:28] <Riddell> pleia2: ^^
[17:28] <pleia2> right, that's why he's looking into it for us
[17:28] <beuno> Riddell, well, paid for, the money comes from somewhere, right?
[17:28] <mhall119> Riddell: does the Kubuntu community have any recommendations as to what "better support" they would like to see?
[17:28] <Riddell> if they want to take donations for what they already provide then call it "continued support"
[17:28] <beuno> but we should be able to understand what the situation is
[17:28] <pleia2> (to be honest, it's odd to me that people would donate to a company at all, but here we are :))
[17:29] <mhall119> Canonical is an unusual kind of company :)
[17:29] <pleia2> I like tax write-offs!
[17:29] <Riddell> mhall119: sysadmins who are responsive?  a dedicated release manager?
[17:29] <pleia2> Riddell: dedicated for flavors?
[17:29] <pleia2> or bringing back a dedicated one for everything?
[17:29] <smartboyhw> Riddell we have that for Ubunru Studio (me)
[17:29] <maco> Riddell: i suppose if it meant directing more people to dedicate more of their QA and whatnot hours to kubuntu testing...?
[17:30] <mhall119> Riddell: can you send jono an email with those requests/recommendations?
[17:30] <Riddell> flavours are everything, I consider the flagship Ubuntu as much a flavour as anything else
[17:30] <smartboyhw> pleia2: Bring back skaet:)
[17:30] <beuno> right, most of those things are a lot of money
[17:30] <Riddell> maco: that would be good
[17:30] <beuno> we should understand what the donation range is like first
[17:30] <Riddell> mhall119: it's too low down my priority list for that I'm afraid
[17:31] <pleia2> can someone else on the team do it?
[17:31] <pleia2> I honestly don't know what the kubuntu team expects from these donations, so a list would be super helpful
[17:31] <mhall119> +1
[17:31] <Riddell> my preferred solution would be just to transfer it to our bank account
[17:32] <pleia2> since it's for all the flavors and most don't have bank accounts, I don't think that's a very practical solution
[17:32] <pleia2> and there are clearly internal things canonical can do to improve things (if you'd tell us what they are)
[17:34] <smartboyhw> pleia2: I do remember Scott Lavender + knome (maybe + zequence) has talked about some flavour team
[17:34] <smartboyhw> Which manages all flavours
[17:34] <Darkwing> I think what we are looking for is, when someone donated to kubuntu, what happens? is it grouped into a flavors list or, does Canonical take it?
[17:34] <pleia2> but as beuno said, we'll try to work with jono to see how much money we're talking about and nail down where it's going and what the intention was
[17:34] <Darkwing> We tried that a couple weeks ago
[17:35] <pleia2> it was certainly a surprise to all of us that it was on the list of donation options without any clear explaining of what they meant
[17:35] <pleia2> Darkwing: right, that's why you're bringing it to the CC now, so we can help you :)
[17:36] <Riddell> groovy, I think that's all from me and I need to run off for something non-computery
[17:36] <pleia2> thanks Riddell!
[17:36] <Darkwing> :) uh huh. You asked for a list of what we were looking for. While we might be different from other flavors in that we have a bank account, we would like to manage our donations.
[17:36] <pleia2> Darkwing: can you prepare a list?
[17:36] <pleia2> or is it just "cash"?
[17:37] <Darkwing> A list of how much was donated or?...
[17:37] <pleia2> I think a list of internal ways Canonical an improve flavor support would be a much more effective approach for everyone
[17:37] <smartboyhw> pleia2 maybe just
[17:37] <smartboyhw> cash
[17:37] <pleia2> Darkwing: a list of things you'd like to see Canonical do to improve support
[17:37] <pleia2> smartboyhw: I think that's very unlikely
[17:37] <mhall119> cash would be hard, since you'd have to say "Kubuntu gets x% of the donated money"
[17:37] <smartboyhw> However I think the donation amount is very small
[17:37] <Darkwing> I think the cash that was donated in Kubuntu's name.
[17:38] <pleia2> smartboyhw: most of the flavors can't accept it
[17:38] <mhall119> I don't think it tracks specific flavors, just flavor support in general
[17:38] <smartboyhw> Actually who here has touched that page and donated something?
[17:38] <Darkwing> As for support, I think most everyone is not happy witht eh quickness that sysadmins move.
[17:38] <pleia2> Darkwing: the text is "Better support for flavours like Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu" - it doesn't specify
[17:38] <smartboyhw> Darkwing: +10000
[17:38] <Darkwing> mhall119: That's part of the questions... How is that money delt with
[17:39] <Darkwing> I would like to know what that was going for.
[17:39] <pleia2> Darkwing: if you get a ticket that's stuck in RT and they haven't been able to help on IRC, you can always forward it to us to look into (we helped the forums folks get things pushed along last year)
[17:39] <mhall119> Darkwing: agreed, jono is already looking into getting that information
[17:39] <pleia2> Darkwing: right, this is all what I said we're working with jono on :)
[17:39] <Darkwing> mhall119: I know, he said that a couple weeks ago.
[17:39] <mhall119> Darkwing: also remember the community team, looking after you guys and making sure you get the best support from Canonical we can provide is part of our jobs
[17:40] <Darkwing> Okay, Then I'll sit back and wait some more.
[17:40] <Darkwing> :) I know.
[17:40] <mhall119> you can ping me any time
[17:40] <pleia2> thanks mhall119 :)
[17:40] <mhall119> :)
[17:40] <Darkwing> Thanks mhall119 and pleia2
[17:41] <pleia2> so, how's Kubuntu aside from Canonical issues? :)
[17:41] <pleia2> gonna be awesome for 13.04? :D
[17:41] <Darkwing> It's always awesome :P
[17:41] <pleia2> great!
[17:41] <smartboyhw> Great!!!
[17:41] <Darkwing> We are in the middle of some council elections right now.
[17:42] <smartboyhw> three of the seats are to be elected
[17:42] <pleia2> ok, just let us know if you need help (I seem to recall we've helped set up polls in the past)
[17:42] <smartboyhw> 4 are running
[17:42] <Darkwing> ScottK is running it so, I doubt we'll have an issue with a poll but, we'll let you know
[17:42] <pleia2> ok great
[17:43] <Darkwing> Is there anything you guys need from us?
[17:43] <smartboyhw> Darkwing…
[17:43] <Darkwing> Yes smartboyhw
[17:43] <smartboyhw> I thought it will be pleia2 asking this
[17:43] <smartboyhw> :p
[17:43] <pleia2> Darkwing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing might be worth a review
[17:44] <pleia2> just some tips to make the process smoother
[17:44] <pleia2> smartboyhw: everyone is welcome to ask questions of each other at these meetings
[17:44] <Darkwing> pleia2: I'll pass it on to Scott
[17:44] <Darkwing> Does the CC need anything from teh KC?
[17:45] <Darkwing> *the
[17:45] <smartboyhw> yep
[17:45] <smartboyhw> Indeed I am going to ask sth later
[17:46] <pleia2> Darkwing: last time Riddell sent the list to the CC, we approved and sent it back for a vote of the community
[17:46] <pleia2> (historically we've never vetoed anyone)
[17:46]  * Darkwing raises an eyebrow
[17:46] <pleia2> then Mark set up the poll
[17:46] <pleia2> this is how all the councils work
[17:46] <Darkwing> Okay, I think we are using teh CIVwhatever poll
[17:46] <Darkwing> But, I'll pass that on.
[17:47] <pleia2> yep, that's what we used for the 2010 elections
[17:47] <smartboyhw> pleia2: Currently it is David Wonderly (darkwing) Philip Muscovac (yofel) Rohan Garg (shadeslayer) and one more (forgotten)
[17:47] <Darkwing> smartboyhw: I'll pull it together in an email :)
[17:48] <Darkwing> But, Valorie Zimmerman is the 4th so far
[17:48] <pleia2> (of course this process is always up for discussion if people are concerned, it's just how it's always been done)
[17:48] <smartboyhw> Darkwing ah yeah I forgotten her:(
[17:48] <pleia2> anything else?
[17:48] <Darkwing> Not from our end that I know of.
[17:48] <pleia2> great, thanks for coming Darkwing :)
[17:49] <pleia2> #topic Any other business
[17:49] <Darkwing> Sorry I was late.
[17:49] <smartboyhw> o/
[17:49] <beuno> sorry, got called off
[17:50] <pleia2> anything else for this meeting?
[17:50] <smartboyhw> Er aren't o/ the syntax in asking questions?
[17:50] <smartboyhw> o/
[17:50] <beuno> smartboyhw, maybe. What's up?
[17:51] <pleia2> smartboyhw: you can just ask questions :)
[17:51] <smartboyhw> Just asking, is tmr the deadline for Regional Membership Board applications?
[17:52] <smartboyhw> pleia2, got used to it.
[17:52] <pleia2> smartboyhw: yes
[17:52] <smartboyhw> How many people are running?
[17:52] <pleia2> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/03/22/ubuntu-membership-board-call-for-nominations/
[17:52] <pleia2> has all the details
[17:52] <smartboyhw> I know, I sent in mine:)
[17:53] <pleia2> ok, that also lists how many seats are open, and the deadline
[17:53] <smartboyhw> How maby people are running for this?
[17:53] <pleia2> We’re looking for 5 Ubuntu Members who can participate in the 12:00 UTC meetings:
[17:53] <pleia2> And for 4 Members who can participate in the 22:00 meetings:
[17:53] <cprofitt> it was 9 total seats right?
[17:53] <smartboyhw> s/maby/many/
[17:53] <pleia2> so yes, 9 seats total
[17:54] <smartboyhw> cprofitt: Yeah
[17:54] <cprofitt> end of nominations is tomorrow
[17:54] <hggdh> at 1200 UTC
[17:54] <pleia2> we don't know how many people have applied if that's what you're asking, all nominations are being collected by the board, they will send them to us at 1200 tomorrow
[17:54] <smartboyhw> Oh.
[17:55] <pleia2> you sent your nomination to the board, right?
[17:55] <smartboyhw> Also another question: Why isn't the CC's mailing lists open to public when TB does?
[17:55] <pleia2> that was in the instructions
[17:55] <smartboyhw> pleia2: yep
[17:55] <pleia2> smartboyhw: because we have to deal with private disputes between individuals and teams
[17:55] <smartboyhw> I mean the archive (for the mail list question)
[17:55] <pleia2> those can't really be public
[17:56] <smartboyhw> pleia2: And why wouldnt TB?
[17:56] <pleia2> because they control technical direction, we handle private disputes
[17:56] <Darkwing> I did have a question pertaining to Ubuntu :)
[17:56] <smartboyhw> Darkwing: Just ask.
[17:56] <pleia2> for technical direction it's helpful to have input from the whole technical community, for private disputes we need to just dicuss it with folks involved
[17:56] <smartboyhw> ;P
[17:57] <pleia2> people need to know they have a safe space to bring up concerns, etc
[17:57] <Darkwing> One thing I've had a few people here in Indiana ask is with teh Ubuntu Chinese version, is Ubuntu/Canonical going to work with the China Government on censorship software for the OS rolling out there? I had no idea what to tell them.
[17:57] <smartboyhw> Darkwing: LOL
[17:58] <pleia2> Darkwing: not a clue
[17:58] <cprofitt> Darkwing: do we even know that there is censorship software in their OS?
[17:58] <smartboyhw> Ask in #ubuntukylin-meeting, the project lead (JackYu) is there
[17:58] <pleia2> Darkwing: since the deal is between the chinese government and canonical, you probably have to ask canonical
[17:58] <beuno> Darkwing, no, there's no plans on Canonical working on censorship software
[17:58] <Darkwing> Hey, I've been asked by about a dozen people... :)
[17:58] <beuno> they Chinese govt, however, will do whatever they like
[17:58] <Darkwing> beuno: Okay thanks.
[17:58] <beuno> I don't think they have the intention of adding something like that into an open source OS
[17:59] <beuno> they'll probably rely on their existing infrastructure for whatever they want to do
[17:59] <cprofitt> beuno: that would have been my guess
[17:59] <beuno> (why censor on an OS level when you can censor on the network level?)
[17:59] <smartboyhw> lol
[17:59] <Darkwing> I think it was more of a question of what Canonical was doing... I don't know if it was a trap or a poor attempt of one but, Now I have an answere
[18:00]  * Darkwing departs to figure out how he broke his system
[18:00] <pleia2> ok, hit the hour mark, we'll wrap this up then :)
[18:00] <pleia2> thanks everyone
[18:00] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[18:00] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Apr  4 18:00:54 2013 UTC.
[18:00] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-04-04-17.00.moin.txt
[18:00] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-04-04-17.00.html
[18:00] <cprofitt> yes, thanks everyone
[18:00] <smartboyhw> Darkwing, see ya (and sorry for your system)
[18:01] <smartboyhw> thx beuno, cprofitt, Riddell, pleia2, Darkwinf
[18:01] <smartboyhw> pleia2: Sad you aren't running for XPL
[18:01] <beuno> by everyone!
[18:01] <pleia2> smartboyhw: thanks, but I already use all my hours in the day :)
[18:32] <ScottK> Darkwing: I asked about the influence of the Chinese government censorship policies in the Tech Board meeting where they approved the flavor and I was assured by Canonical that there would be one and only one image with identical contents inside and outside China shipping no more than the usual amount of spyware for Ubuntu.
[23:03] <xnox> Darkwing: the collaboration is with a development group from a university, which are recursively sponsored eventually by the chinese government. But with like all official flavours - all packages are build and signed and published in canonical datacenters and all the installation images are build from that archive in canonical dataceters and signed again. The signing GPG keys are the same as all of the ubuntu archive and ubuntu cd images. Thus if i
[23:03] <xnox> mages or packages in any way modified by a third party post-release, it can be easily verified by checking the GPG signatures and verifying chain of trust.