[03:37] <zequence> em22_: Have you tried the latest kernel?
[03:38] <zequence> em22_: Also, I might have the same bug you have when installing many OSs on the same machine. I have a feeling only Raring has it
[03:38] <zequence> em22_: 9 times out of 10, I'm not able to get past partitioning
[03:47] <zequence> em22_: I haven't found to have the problems you have with the kernel, and if the problem doesn't exist on a more recent version, there's no need for a bug report
[03:48] <zequence> During the development period, the maintenance workflow for the kernels is a little different, and there's a chance something was forgotten for one of the releases
[03:48] <zequence> Meaning, for one of the kernel versions
[06:26] <len-1304> I don't know that I have a bug or not... Doing something an app is not designed for and having it fail is not really a bug I guess.
[06:30] <len-1304> I installed onto a USB stick (32G) and found that ubiquity doe snot like USB sticks that already have a linux FS on them. I had previously installed xubuntu on it. But ubiquity would not get to the partitioner. If I pulled the USB stick out it was fine. I tried reformatting to ext4 again, but that didn't work... formatted Fat32 and it worked fine.
[06:31] <len-1304> The system runs really slow on a USB stick. Slower than a live iso on a USB stick.
[06:47] <len-1304> zequence, I'm Off to bed. 13.04 seems to work just fine anything I have tried. Both live and install.
[07:06] <em22> sorry, I was away, now it looks like everyone has left too.   The main problems with the installer is that if any partitions are mounted, or especially if the SWAP is mounted then partman will hang.  once partman hangs it stays hung, it never exits,  and any further attempts to run it will also hang becuase of the already hung session.  I have added that info to the already existing bug.  This is why the problem is not seen on a 
[07:06] <em22> clean install, because a clean install does not yet have a swap file.  but if there is a swap file and it is automatically activated, that is when partman gets into trouble.  see bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1080701
[07:08] <em22> but the other bugs I was talking about are:   #1165259 13.04 Beta1 -- symlink missing for Linux Headers /usr/src   | no one has triaged this yet, but I feel it is a release blocker. so I am concerned about the lack of response.
[07:09] <em22> other bugs: are of less concern:   #1164789 partman hangs if laptop not plugged into power   |   #1164783 during manual partitioning, the size is off-by-one, this causes unexpected resizing |  #1164787 Partition Summary Silder Bar does not display the last partition 
[07:12] <em22> Im really excited about this new release!  it is the first time that the audio has actually worked correctly on my HP laptop.  Unfortunatly, I still cant use it, becuase it causes my laptop to overheat.  My laptop hit 94C under moderate load, before I turned off the power...  that is seriously hot.  12.04 does not have this problem.  it actually started with 12.10
[07:13] <em22> well, I've got to call it a night too, but hopefully you will see the above info when you come back.   Good Night
[07:57] <smartboyhw> zequence: Cheers for making the announcement on G+
[08:04] <zequence> em22_: I'm still curious whether the symlink issue only affects a specific kernel version or not. 
[08:05] <zequence> bug #1165259
[08:05] <smartboyhw> zequence: if it affects -lowlatency it will affect -generic too I think
[08:06] <smartboyhw> Or maybe not.
[08:06] <zequence> I see now what the problem is. I will look into it
[08:06] <smartboyhw> zequence: \o/
[08:07] <zequence> Nice. I'm able to pull LP sources from Debian
[08:07] <zequence> pull-lp-source <package> <release>
[08:07]  * smartboyhw is grateful that they have a project lead with such high ability (not saying Scott isn't)
[08:07] <smartboyhw> zequence: good:(
[08:08] <smartboyhw> Damn
[08:08] <smartboyhw> :) replacing :(
[08:08]  * smartboyhw hates his small Android's keyboard 
[09:03] <smartboyhw> zequence: For the first time, I heard somebody in the G+ community going for Unity 
[09:11] <em22_> zequence: all I can tell you is that the symlink issue does NOT affect 12.04 or 12.10,  or anything earlier.  I have never encountered this prior to 13.04.   I have not yet tried installing the generic kernel on 13.04 but I have installed it on 12.10 and 12.04 without encountering this bug.
[09:13] <em22> thank you for following up on this.  goodnight
[09:14] <smartboyhw> em22 that IS weird. Anyway, good night.
[09:17] <em22> not so weird... basically somebody fumble-fingered the folder name or links, a simple oversight easily fixed, but with substantial consequence
[09:22] <zequence> linux-lowlatency is based on linux-generic, which has changed a bit over the releases, and we're not yet developing linux-lowlatency during development cycles. We just maintain it when it's released in stable releases
[09:22] <zequence> When -generic changes, so does -lowlatency, and in this case, something in the -lowlatency source was probably just not named properly
[09:23] <zequence> To make it linux-lowlatency, instead of just linux
[09:23] <zequence> I'm still looking at the problem. The build system for linux kernels is a bit more extensive then for many other packages
[09:23] <zequence> As it needs to have arch specific stuff, etc
[09:24] <smartboyhw> zequence: What do ya think of the points the person raised about Unity in our G+ community?
[09:27] <em22> eh...  perhaps I should qualify that statement by saying that I have only explictly looked at the links on 12.04 and 13.04, but I have installed virtualbox on all ofthem above and only encountered the problem on 13.04
[09:27] <em22> now I really am going to bed, it's 3am
[09:32] <zequence> em22: Once I find the problem, i can have a look at earlier sources too
[09:32] <zequence> There's no problem building modules on 13.04 though
[09:32] <zequence> Probably just need to install the correct headers
[09:33] <zequence> Which seems to be the -generic headers in this case, together with the -lowlatency (symlinked) ones
[09:33] <zequence> generic does symlinking too, but -lowlatency is apparently not using the right names for the symlinks
[12:05] <smartboyhw_> zequence, I've never made such an long G+ comment.
[12:10] <zequence> smartboyhw: Maybe you never had so much to say at once :)
[12:12] <zequence> smartboyhw: Do you have some sort of special privilege on the forum?
[12:42] <smartboyhw> zequence: Nah
[12:42] <smartboyhw> Why?
[12:42] <smartboyhw> zequence, I once asked and the ops won't give me:P
[12:43] <zequence> smartboyhw: I was trying to figure out how to make threads sticky
[12:46] <smartboyhw> zequence: I always ask the guys in #ubuntuforums
[12:46] <smartboyhw> Give me the link and I"ll help
[12:48] <zequence> smartboyhw: Ok. In that case, I'll just ask for privileges
[12:49] <smartboyhw> zequence: +1
[12:49] <smartboyhw> zequence: You are trying to make the new leadership thread sticky or?
[12:50] <zequence> smartboyhw: No, I just want to be able to make new threads sticky later on
[12:50] <zequence> The thread about helping Ubuntu Studio is very old and out of date
[12:50] <zequence> I will want to replace it
[12:50] <zequence> I'll do it myself, so no worries
[12:51] <smartboyhw> zequence: +1
[12:51] <smartboyhw> zequence: I remembered asking ops at least 3 times:P
[12:51] <smartboyhw> I mean the sticky thing.
[12:52] <smartboyhw> Not being mod.
[12:53] <smartboyhw> zequence: After you posted tell me. I want to add a page of how people can contribute to Studio in my blog.
[12:53] <zequence> smartboyhw: We have the Contribute page on the main site, which is quite ok
[12:53] <zequence> http://ubuntustudio.org/contribute/
[12:54] <smartboyhw> zequence: I think you will make the language more casual om the Forums;P
[12:55] <smartboyhw> s/om/on/
[12:55] <kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "zequence: I think you will make the language more casual on the Forums;P"
[12:55]  * smartboyhw really likes kubotu in this channel:)
[12:57] <zequence> I like the text to be short and informative. Contributing needs to be simple, and it needs to be simple to read about it too
[12:57] <smartboyhw> zequence: +1
[13:04] <smartboyhw_> zequence: Strange #ubuntustudio-offtopic is owned.
[13:05] <smartboyhw_> Turns out I think by joejaxx, one of the founders of Ubuntu Studio.
[13:05] <smartboyhw_> I need ttoine to confirm his identity though
[14:13] <zequence> I've sent mail to the ubuntu forum council mail list. It's private, but they accepted my mail, so they will discuss who to accept
[14:13] <zequence> I requested, if possible, that they give the privilege to the LP team, but if that is technically impossible, than only me
[14:17] <smartboyhw> zequence: OK
[15:30] <smartboyhw> zequence: Speaking of adding the LP team, I don't think ttoine has an account.
[15:30] <smartboyhw> At the foruns
[15:34] <smartboyhw> I have. I think holstein has.
[15:35] <len-1304> I haven't.. I should be getting the ubuntustudio mailing list though.
[15:35] <smartboyhw> len-1304 what?
[15:36] <len-1304> I don't do the forums
[15:36] <smartboyhw> zequence: Get your Forums account a Ubuntu member user avatar.
[15:36] <smartboyhw> len-1304 that's sad.
[15:36]  * smartboyhw has a Kubuntu member one heh.
[15:37] <len-1304> I only have so much time.
[15:39] <smartboyhw> len-1304: No worries.
[15:41] <len-1304> I'm still testing beta 2 as well.
[15:42] <smartboyhw> len-1304: Well just continue to report bugs:)
[15:43] <len-1304> I haven't had any problems so far. Jack has not had any xruns since install, yesterday.
[15:43] <len-1304> Things are really slow, but that is what I get from running on a USB stick.
[15:44] <smartboyhw> len-1304 I found CDs slow.
[15:44] <smartboyhw> LOL 
[15:44] <smartboyhw> and DVDs
[15:45] <len-1304> The USB stick loads stuff fast enough, but any time it has to write is slow
[15:51] <smartboyhw> len-1304 couldn't agree more.
[15:52] <smartboyhw> zequence: For S cycle would it be possible to do offline docs?
[15:55] <zequence> smartboyhw: If we have any, sure
[15:57] <len-1304> smartboyhw, it is not hard to add them
[15:57] <len-1304>  smartboyhw, it is not hard to add them
[15:59] <smartboyhw_> len-1304: You know how to play with docbook?
[16:00] <len-1304> nope. I can learn
[16:01] <smartboyhw_> len-1304: Next thing, you will be our new doc lead:P (joke)
[16:02] <len-1304> Doing desktop menus is enough right now.
[16:10] <len-1304> smartboyhw_, some of my Docs have not been well received :)
[16:10] <smartboyhw_> len-1304: e.g.?
[16:10]  * len-1304 tends to leave out things ... 
[16:11] <len-1304> I for get that not everyone knows what I know.
[16:11] <len-1304> worse, I don't know what I know...
[16:11] <smartboyhw_> len-1304: Really?
[16:15] <len-1304> I am not a good teacher.
[16:16] <smartboyhw_> len-1304: Oh.
[16:16]  * smartboyhw_ has classmates wanting him to become a Physics teacher weird.
[16:17] <len-1304> My son is a good teacher. He is 26, finishing off his Phd. He has been tutoring since high school.
[16:18] <smartboyhw_> len-1304: You have a very clever son:)
[16:18] <len-1304> Yes.
[16:21] <smartboyhw_> len-1304 congrats!
[16:43] <holstein> smartboyhw_: my email doesnt work :/
[16:43] <holstein> not that im complaining.. just responding
[16:44] <smartboyhw_> uh oh
[16:45] <len-1304> holstein, The places where I want to use it sometimes... I can't anyway :)
[16:45] <len-1304> Unless I subscribe to the list twice.
[16:47] <em22> zequence: the correct headers are there, it's just that the symlinks have the wrong dir name
[17:00] <zequence> em22: Yeah, but installing -generic headers would make the symlinks work is what I mean
[17:53]  * zequence sighs
[17:54]  * zequence is wondering if las will ever stop blaming all jack, ardour and pulseaudio bugs on Ubuntu packaging
[17:58] <em22> zequence: yes, and depending on what the differences are between generic and lowlatency, it could either work fine or lead to some nearly impossible to locate bugs
[17:59] <zequence> em22: I was looking at the code, but haven't found the actual error yet. btw, I should try to reproduce it first, and confirm your bug report
[18:01] <zequence> em22: My guess is, as the kernels are so alike, that there is no difference on those bits, but that's just a really big guess, since I actually have no idea
[18:02] <em22> okay...   I think I will install Beta2 today and see how that goes...   by the way, I probably should have mentioned in the bug report that these are 64 bits  Ive been testing.
[18:03] <em22> I prefer not to play russion roulette ...  there are way too many problems as it is without introducing subtle random variants
[18:03] <zequence> em22: Yeah, that could make a difference, as there are some diffs for archs as far as debian/rules goes
[18:05] <em22> okay, I will update the bugs  to clarify.....   I was expecting to see some selction boxes for such things, but fiind none...  and yet on some other peoples bugs I see all kinds of info about that build, but I see no way to add that.
[18:05] <zequence> em22: How did you report it? ubuntu-bug linux-lowlatency?
[18:06] <zequence> Oh, you reported the meta
[18:07] <em22> yes, I used the web interface, because I assumed a need for my user name and I don't have the new os configed yet with my documents etc
[18:08] <zequence> em22: All you need is a launchpad account
[18:09] <em22> yes, right, but getting to that account info from the newly installed os was not possible....   I keep all my important stuff in a virtual machine and did not have that setup yet
[18:10] <em22> as it turns out, I totally cannot run virtual machines on 13.04  that's how I hit 94C was just from the load of an idle vm
[18:11] <em22> 12.04 works great for me except for the audio does not work and bluetooth does not work
[18:11] <len-1304> I have found that if I use ubuntu-bug even on a new install, it just asks me to login when the browser opens and then the rest is prettyy much automatic.
[18:11] <em22> yes, well, I have far too many accounts to keep track of, I dont have any of my logins memorized except for the vm password
[18:12] <em22> everything else I look up
[18:12] <len-1304> Ah, ok.
[18:14] <em22> 13.04 everything works except for this temperature problem.  so I am really very frustrated right now... so close and yet so far...
[18:14] <em22> earlier, people were talking about Unity...  something on G+...   link?    I hope this does not mean that people are considering switching from XFCE to Unity?
[18:14] <len-1304> I don't think so.
[18:15] <zequence> No, we won't be changing desktops very easily. I'd rather add support for more of them instead. 
[18:15] <len-1304> unity is unusable on most of my systems. Too slow to get anything done.
[18:15] <len-1304> Even my wife who just does browsing and office type stuff gave up on it.
[18:16] <em22> good, I think the concept of a one size fits all interface is just totally wrong.  It would be like replacing the steering wheel and gas pedal of a car with a motorcycle handlebar
[18:16] <len-1304> Yes.
[18:17] <len-1304> unity is a consumer IF, Studio is a creation OS and needs a content creation IF with more flexibility
[18:19] <zequence> I use Gnome3 myself. Or awesome. Personally, I find the menu a waste of time, but then, I'm pretty comfortable using mostly my keyboard, and it works with my workflows
[18:20] <zequence> If I had more time, I would probably do a Gnome3 version, just for the fun of it. Making it look slick and have some multimedia specific extensions
[18:20] <zequence> You can add a menu to it pretty easily, if you want
[18:20] <zequence> And, I think it's very fast, as well
[18:21] <em22> unity is a cellphone interface....  and it is great to see that ubuntu now runs on cellphones, but my laptop is not a cellphone and my desktop will probably never have a touchscreen.  IMHO it's just totally wrong to try to make everything work the same when they are not at all the same.  ditto your point about content creators vs content consumers.   The thing about menus is that they make information discoverable.  with unity yo
[18:21] <em22> u can hardly even tell the difference between a program that is running and a button to launch the program...
[18:23] <zequence> Discovering applications is not something you do on a daily basis. It's once in a while, and then you have many ways to do that. Searching by tag is one way
[18:24] <em22> I have not looked at Gnome3 in a long time.  I guess if it's approaching stability it could be interesting.  
[18:24] <zequence> But, I can agree that it feels disorientating to use Unity or Gnome dash, before you get used to it
[18:25] <zequence> I think Gnome3 is quite ok. It's just that it's not polished by any distro. you can improve functionality by adding extensions, which are basically java script plugins
[18:25] <em22> well, I create my own quick launcher with the stuff I use daily, for everything else I prefer a menu that I can read instead of inscrutable icons 
[18:25] <zequence> This is the place for extensions https://extensions.gnome.org/
[18:26] <zequence> Just finding that page is not apparent, when on vanilla Gnome
[18:26] <zequence> I guess these are reasons why they are planning their own OS
[18:26] <em22> also I find a couple of quick clicks far superios to typing commands in what is supposed to be a GUI interface.  if I wanted to type stuff I'd use terminal....  well, actually I do spend a lot of my time in terminal
[18:29] <em22> speaking of terminals....  is there any chance I could talk people into considering the replacement of xfce term with gnome-terminal?   if you only do stuff locally then xfce is essentially identical...  but if you spend half your life in ssh then gnome-terminal is vastly superior because of it's support for multiple profiles with custom colors etc.
[18:30] <zequence> em22: Easily installable :)
[18:30] <em22> actually its a bit fiddly to get it to be your default terminal
[18:31] <zequence> em22: The philosophy I have is that we try to keep as close to Xubuntu as possible, to reduce maintenance issues
[18:31] <em22> okay, that is sound reasoning
[18:31] <zequence> em22: But, that's just me. We did have more of the Gnome apps until 13.04
[18:33] <em22> yes,  I saw that 13.04 went back to using thunar instead of nautilus
[18:35] <em22> In general I much prefer nautilus, there are certain things that you can't do in thunar....  or at least past tense....   these latest versions are a whole new ballgame though, thunar has improved and nautilus is not even recognizable....  
[18:38] <em22> which I guess is also one of my complaints about Gnome...  the user interface is constantly making radical changes.    after you train an office full of not-very-computer-savvy workers how to use something, the last thing you want are radical changes in that interface.  it means huge retraining and support costs
[18:44] <len-1304> The new nautilus seems to have lost functionality
[18:45] <len-1304> The search feature doesn't have the flexibility it used to. Basically thunar now seems to have more features than nautilus any more
[18:45] <em22> well, not sure it's lost anything...  but it's been modularized so that you have to browse synaptic and install separet addons
[18:45] <len-1304> Gee thanks.
[18:46] <len-1304> So maintaining a distro with it becomes more work.
[18:46] <em22> yes...  I was quite surprised/shocked by the changes that had been made
[18:47] <zequence> It has lost some functions
[18:47] <len-1304> We switched to nautilus in 12.04 because thunar was buggy. Thunar has gotten better and nautilus worse.
[18:47] <em22> not sure I am going to remain a fan of nautilus
[18:47] <zequence> They took out the treeview in list mode, but I read they're readding it
[18:48] <zequence> The search functionality I find irritating now
[18:48] <zequence> Other than those, I suppose most of what you'll ever need is still there
[18:48] <zequence> Just aesthetics on the rest
[18:49] <em22> yes, I think its a good call...      guess I never really used the search functionality...  I never found any of the GUI search programs to be very good, silly me, I prefer cli: locate
[18:50] <zequence> I just got spam through a mail list, with no sender, originally sent Feb 2006
[18:50] <len-1304> catfish has gotten much better.
[18:50] <len-1304> Catfish is a gui search. (our new default)
[18:51] <em22> it's good to be innovative and try new ways of doing the GUIs, but I feel that programmers do not appear to be spending enough time thinking about their target users, mostof whom are not very computer savvy.
[18:51] <em22> spam...  hmmm.  well maybe it get stuck in a queue somewhere, but more liekly it's just a poor job of forging the headers.
[18:53] <len-1304> Ya, but I think Ubuntu right now (speaking about vanilla)  is trying to aim at non-computer users, those who don't use linux now. Anyone who likes things the way they are is already using linux. They are looking for a new "market"
[18:53] <len-1304> Time will tell if they get it right
[18:53] <zequence> Or no. There is a From:. But, anyway. Not often you get 6 years old mail
[18:54] <len-1304> Old virus.
[18:55] <em22> yes, an abandoning their existing market in the process.   distrowatch has already told that they are wrong...  tens of thousands of people have switched to alternatives.  also, those icons just dont seem like the right approach.... windows 8 had the same experience.
[18:55] <zequence> Windows 8 is a gigantic switch though, compared to how little Windows has been changing over the past 20 years
[18:56] <zequence> So, it's not strange that people are finding it hard to adjust
[18:56] <em22> its far easier to teach a non-computer user to read a menu then it is to have them memorize a zillion icons.... speaking as someone who has done a lot of teaching of computer users...
[18:56] <zequence> non savvy users often only use something like three applications though
[18:57] <zequence> or maybe four
[18:58] <em22> okay....  well....  so you hit them with 20 icons....  inscrutable images and no hover tips...
[18:59] <em22> and on top of that the icons keep getting hidden.....
[19:00] <em22> do you know how hard it can be to teach people how to use a minimize button that is right in front of them...?   I just did that yesterday....  not easy.  the icons are even more obtuse.
[19:02] <em22> well, nice chatting, but Ive got code to write...  and I guess another beta to test :-)   so Ill be going now
[19:04] <zequence> em22: See you around
[19:04] <zequence> em22: And thanks for taking time with bug hunting
[19:05] <em22> yes, you are welcome,  I look forward to chatting again soon. 
[19:40] <zequence> Think I found the bug for the header linking
[19:59] <zequence> building..
[21:21] <zequence> Seems like a found another bug -- missing build dependencies
[21:28] <zequence> I'm being stupid now..
[21:28] <zequence> makes little sense making a symbolic link link to itself
[21:29] <zequence> Obviously, the headers should depend on -generic headers
[21:41] <zequence> hmm, there are two header dirs.. surprise
[22:40] <zequence> len-dt: Just noticed it's possible to do polls on LP. Didn't read about how Xubuntu will be choosing their lead, but I'm thinking that would be a good way later on. A launchpad vote
[22:41] <zequence> I'm thinking 14.04 would be suitable for that
[22:41] <zequence> The release of it, I mean
[22:41] <zequence> or, by the release of it, more correctly
[22:42] <zequence> I'm learning more about how LP works today. About projects, project groups, milestones, etc
[22:42] <zequence> It's a bit difficult to orientate among some of the projects and teams, as they are ver alike
[22:43] <zequence> At least for someone who doesn't know LP very well
[22:43] <zequence> So, I'm going to do something about that
[22:43] <zequence> Xubuntu has a nice system with different coloring on some teams. I guess they are not alone in that. Works pretty well. Think we should do that too
[22:43] <zequence> And make projects not look like teams
[22:51] <len-dt> Ya, that all makes sense. I understand the need for structure, but I have never been good at it.
[22:52] <len-dt> It is a problem in everything I do, I see the solution, but am not so good at making easy to follow up on.
[22:54] <len-dt> Teaching math is really hard because it is too easy to see the solution without the steps to get there. Making myself think through the whole thing is something I am learning.