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| SamB | jelmer: so, #emacs was wondering if you could break it to rms that bzr is dead and it is time to move on ... | 22:04 |
|---|---|---|
| SamB | evidently, "I think it's time to move on" isn't quite explicit enough | 22:04 |
| JordiGH | jelmer: Can you send an email to rms to tell him that bzr is dead and GNU should no longer use it? | 22:06 |
| lifeless | JordiGH: why should jelmer do that? He is no more authoritative than e.g. I am, or poolie... we don't work for Canonical anymore | 22:10 |
| JordiGH | lifeless: Alright, can you do it? | 22:10 |
| SamB | does canonical even pay *anyone* to work on bzr anymore? | 22:12 |
| lifeless | SamB: I don't know, not working there. Which is my point. | 22:13 |
| lifeless | If you want a statement from someone with actual knowledge, you need to ask the sponsor. | 22:13 |
| JordiGH | lifeless: rms won't let us go until there's a clear message that bzr is completely unmaintained and unviable. | 22:13 |
| JordiGH | Not a blog post, not a wishy-washy "I think..." or "perhaps if we did this, bzr could revive", but a resounding NO on bzr. | 22:14 |
| === elmo__ is now known as elmo | ||
| lifeless | JordiGH: So unmaintained means 'set of active maintainers is empty', and while I can say that I am not focused on maintaining bzr anymore (though I still have commit rights AFAIK), I can't say 'the set of active maintainers is empty' because - I /don't know/. | 22:15 |
| lifeless | JordiGH: mgz or vila or jam may know. | 22:15 |
| JordiGH | lifeless: Do you have their email? | 22:16 |
| lifeless | JordiGH: sure, its all over the place ;) | 22:16 |
| JordiGH | Which place? | 22:16 |
| lifeless | bzr devel mailing list, package metadata for bzr packages, commit logs... | 22:17 |
| Peng | This is a sad conversation. | 22:17 |
| SamB | hmm, jam apparantly was the most recent to commit | 22:17 |
| lifeless | it is a sad conversation, its also an odd one, because AFAIK Canonical are still maintaining bzr. | 22:18 |
| lifeless | -> not dead. | 22:18 |
| JordiGH | Ugh, then how do we kill it de jure? It's already dead de facto. | 22:18 |
| JordiGH | Do we need to tell sabdfl to explicitly kill it? | 22:18 |
| SamB | or did he just approve it or something | 22:18 |
| lifeless | SamB: jam approved a proposal from a Dylan | 22:19 |
| lifeless | McCall | 22:19 |
| SamB | yes, with -n0 that becomes clearer | 22:19 |
| lifeless | JordiGH: why do you want bzr killed ? | 22:19 |
| SamB | it isn't working very well for Emacs, but rms is extremely stubborn | 22:20 |
| JordiGH | lifeless: Because rms won't Emacs stop using bzr unless bzr is officially pronounced dead, and there's a huge majority of users that are mighty pissed off about bzr being used for Emacs. It's a horrible and divisive thorn in the Emacs community. It needs to be excised. | 22:20 |
| lifeless | Xemacs V2 ? | 22:20 |
| elmo | *blink* why do users care about bzr being used for Emacs? | 22:21 |
| elmo | do you mean developers? | 22:21 |
| SamB | this is Emacs, how do you tell which is which? | 22:21 |
| elmo | SamB: pretty easily, IMO? I'm an emacs user, for example. I've never known or cared what VCS emacs is developed in | 22:22 |
| SamB | I have papers, but they wanted me to (essentially) rebase -i my code and I obviously cannot do that with bzr ... | 22:23 |
| elmo | I'm not suggesting emacs should continue to use bzr; I'm simply suggesting that trying to get the entire bzr project officially killed to stop emacs using it is something of an overreaction/overreach | 22:24 |
| SamB | yeah, probably | 22:25 |
| JordiGH | elmo: It's already dead, just not officially. | 22:26 |
| elmo | JordiGH: no, like lifeless said, dead would be that it has no active maintainers | 22:26 |
| JordiGH | elmo: Then why won't the active maintainers not fix the bugs that Emacs has reported years ago? | 22:27 |
| elmo | I don't know that it has or hasn't and I'm pretty sure you don't know that | 22:27 |
| JordiGH | Nor even acknowledge them? | 22:27 |
| SamB | JordiGH: would rms be satisfied by a statement that it was 99% dead? | 22:27 |
| JordiGH | SamB: No, he's already gotten that statement | 22:27 |
| lifeless | JordiGH: which bugs haven't been acknowledged? | 22:28 |
| SamB | JordiGH: which bub numbers do you mean? | 22:28 |
| SamB | *bug | 22:28 |
| JordiGH | The one that affects the ELPA repo. | 22:28 |
| elmo | JordiGH: I've reported bugs in many many free software projects that never get acknowledgement or fixed (I'm pretty sure some of my Debian bugs have been opened > 10 years at this point); it doesn't mean these projects are dead | 22:29 |
| JordiGH | elmo: Can we declare it dead for Emacs, then? | 22:29 |
| lifeless | JordiGH: thats up to Emacs surely... | 22:30 |
| JordiGH | lifeless: No, Emacs needs a statement from bzr. | 22:30 |
| * SamB wonders why rms even gets a vote | 22:30 | |
| JordiGH | lifeless: rms will not relent otherwise. | 22:30 |
| lifeless | You want the bzr community to say they don't want Emacs to use bzr? | 22:31 |
| JordiGH | lifeless: YES | 22:31 |
| JordiGH | PLEEASE | 22:31 |
| JordiGH | PLEEEEEEASE. | 22:31 |
| * SamB doesn't see how a project with as much wrong with it as bzr has can be considered "alive" when the time between commits to trunk is measured in months ... | 22:34 | |
| === r0bby_ is now known as robbyoconnor | ||
| jelmer | SamB, JordiGH: I don't think I'm the right person for that | 23:14 |
| SamB | oh, JordiGH disconnected; I guess expecting him to come here because I pasted that in #emacs doesn't make sense ... | 23:19 |
| SamB | jelmer: who would be better to ask? | 23:20 |
| lifeless | You could ask on the list, but I think its a crazy thing to ask. What community will say 'go away' to a user that they wany to support | 23:21 |
| jelmer | SamB: somebody currently involved in Bazaar | 23:25 |
| SamB | jelmer: I only have to go 3 commits back to find one from you ... | 23:26 |
| SamB | that seems current enough to *me* | 23:26 |
| jelmer | SamB: that's a commit from last year I think? | 23:27 |
| SamB | yeah | 23:28 |
| jelmer | SamB: Anyway, IIRC there is an official GNU maintainer for Bazaar. In the past that was mbp, today it's probably jam? | 23:28 |
| jelmer | but I also agree with lifeless that it's a strange question to ask | 23:30 |
| jelmer | then again, I also thought the process with which emacs chose bzr as its vcs at the time was odd | 23:32 |
| poolie | o/ | 23:40 |
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