rick_h_http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/15/netflix-html5-chromebooks/ woot00:19
snap-lGood morning12:48
nullspacework sucks when your waiting on others to do their job12:50
rick_h_needing to do other's jobs for them12:50
snap-lnullspace: That's what a waiting for list is for. :)12:50
rick_h_that sucks worse :)12:50
snap-lSo you can park it and move on. :)12:50
snap-lrick_h_: Hey, I'm the most theoretically productive person I know. :)12:50
nullspaceI can do some of their job but I'm not envious of the conversation they need to have with our collective boss telling them that they are wrong in their shoot from the hip ideas12:51
nullspacedislike the idea of being a yes man, but I'm not a fan of telling my boss your idea is stupid12:55
snap-lThere are tactful ways to tell your boss to rethink his position12:56
snap-lnone of which use the word "stupid"12:56
nullspaceI've tried a couple, he's not reading between the lines12:56
nullspaceso thus we are down to an uncomfortabel conversation where he has to explain his actions12:57
nullspaceneedless it needs to be handled delicately13:01
jrwreni tell my boss his ideas are stupid all the time.13:07
jrwrenand then I tell him why.13:07
jrwreni don't use the word stupid.13:07
snap-lWell, I was excited about Elsevier partnering with O'Reilly books, but apparently all of the titles that I care about for Game Development are now with CRC press13:21
snap-land they appear to have not hit the enlightenment age of ebooks13:21
jrwrenthere are good books for game development? :)13:33
snap-lYeah, there's some decent ones for AI, game desgin, etc.13:33
snap-lAnd Morgan Kaufman had a bunch of them that apparently are now published by CRC press13:34
snap-lhttp://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780123847171.do <- there is no reason a book on Tcl / Tk should be a $709 ebook13:36
snap-ler, $7013:36
snap-lthough $709 is even less justifiable. ;)13:36
brouschIt is rare and valuable knowledge which cannot be easily duplicated13:37
_stink_they're everywhere13:38
snap-lIt's a language that lost half it's userbase once we stopped trying to pick apart dial-up modem PPP connections13:38
_stink_oops, miscan13:38
snap-l_stink_: You were ahead. :)13:38
_stink_hazards of irssi by phone.13:41
brouschI was excited by this until I realized it's just a Google App Engine webapp https://github.com/googleglass/mirror-quickstart-python13:56
brouschAnyone going to MobiDevDay Detroit? I have a free ticket14:01
rick_h_not I14:01
rick_h_I thought Blazeix was tempted to go14:01
jrwrendjango peeps: do you have a good example of a setup.py for your django app?17:24
brouschFor the application a Django app?17:31
brouschLet me try again. For an application or for a single Django app?17:31
jrwrenis there an uninstall for setup.py ?19:07
rick_h_it's why we <3 pip so19:08
rick_h_and use virtualenvs so we can make clean && make19:08
jrwreni can't figure out module path finding.19:08
jrwrenyes, its a virtualenv19:08
jrwrenok, pip uninstall worked.19:09
jrwrenfind_packages doesn't seem to be finding __init__.py in root of package dir, but docs say that it should.19:11
rick_h_hmm, yea that sounds bad. Always have a package name dir in the same dir as your setup.py. Never put your setup.py in the same dir19:13
jrwreni'm not sure what you just said :)19:14
rick_h_sorry, been a long week19:14
jrwrenany why? when http://pythonhosted.org/distribute/setuptools.html#using-find-packages says it searched . for __init__.py19:14
rick_h_assuming the same dir that contains a setup.py has a __init__.py ?19:14
rick_h_don't do that19:15
jrwreni must.19:15
rick_h_then quit :P19:15
jrwreni'll rewrite setuptools if I must19:16
rick_h_enjoy, that walls broken many a man19:16
jrwrenbrownfield dev leads to fun things.19:16
jrwrenok, I see what is happening now.19:18
jrwrendon't do that.19:18
snap-ljrwren: Remember Star Wars?19:23
jrwrenits a trap?19:24
jrwrenthat was return of the jedi.19:24
snap-lWhen R2D2 and Chewbacca were playing chess, and R2D2 was winning, and Chewbacca got mad?19:24
jrwrenBut Uncle Owen, I was going to go to toshi station to get some power converters.19:24
jrwrensetuptools will tear your arms off.19:25
snap-lRick is always right. Let the Rick win. :)19:25
jrwrenif that were true, he would write in F# or Haskell.19:25
snap-lThat's because they don't want to find out they're wrong19:26
snap-lThey won't let him write in F# or Haskell19:26
snap-lTrue story.19:26
rick_h_lol, trust me...if you could be in my work irc channels you'd see how un-right I can be19:27
brouschIt's obvious rick_h_ isn't always right. Look at his opinion of Django19:28
rick_h_when I die, my last words will be "$@# you django..."19:28
jrwrenrick_h_: what is your opinion of django?19:29
rick_h_some people like php, some people like doing web dev in perl, and some people like django...19:29
rick_h_they've got something in common, they do crap I don't care to do :)19:29
rick_h_I try :)19:29
jrwrenmy opinion is much, much worse :p19:30
rick_h_hey, if someone can get their job done using eclipse...more power to them. I'll just talk about them behind their backs in my ubuntu irc channels lol19:30
* brousch alt-tabs away from pydev19:30
brouschrick_h_: So what's your ideal web development framework?19:32
rick_h_brousch: pyramid19:32
brouschThat's as good as it gets?19:32
rick_h_it fixes about everything I hated about pylons19:32
rick_h_like my pebble it just keeps getting better. :P19:33
jrwrenused flask for something trivial. it was great.19:33
jrwrendjango has 1 thing going for it: the admin interface. if you aren't using the admin interface, django is the wrong choice.19:33
brouschHa, you'll be proud of me. I met some guys at a meeting that were talking about doing a new project in Django, except they weren't going to use the ORM, or the templating, so I tried to convince them to try Pyramid instead19:34
rick_h_and 90% of that can be solved with phpmyadmin/pgmyadmin/real code19:34
brouschReally? Use phpmyadmin as the admin for your python website? That's just wrong!19:35
jrwrenagree, it doesn't solve 90%19:36
jrwrendjango orm + admin interface does some *very nice things*19:37
snap-lrick_h_: ^^19:38
brouschsnap-l: beautiful19:41
rick_h_time to go try starbucks as my away work place vs my poor closed caribou19:58
brouschWelcome to the dark side19:58
widoxrick_h_: :(20:01
rick_h_I know, I've got to get out of the house!20:11
rick_h_and I walk into a table full of kids playing magic20:12
jrwrencould be worse, could be yugio20:13
greg-gwait, *kids* still play magic?! I thought that was only 30+ people now?20:13
greg-gyeah, thought it transitioned to those games, the ones I forgot that jrwren didn't20:13
rick_h_if any of them shave weekly I'd be surprised20:13
greg-gso they're asian?20:13
* greg-g apologizes20:13
rick_h_no, I live in whitey ville20:13
greg-gso they're girls?20:14
greg-galright, /ignoring IRC for a bit.....20:14
jrwreni think those games are big amongst azns20:14
jrwrenor maybe just some starcraft overlap20:14
rick_h_interesting http://tosbourn.com/2013/04/development/stack-exchange-is-winning-the-internet-and-this-is-not-a-good-thing/20:16
rick_h_I don't know it's stupid. I think it's a boon for copy/paste coders that don't understand what it's doing.20:19
snap-lI'm sorry, but that's a red herring20:19
snap-lIf you're not willing to put forth more than 5 minutes to understand what it is you're pasting from a site, you're asking for trouble20:20
snap-lAnd instead of whining, what's the solution?20:21
snap-lKill Stack Exchange?20:21
jrwrenthe post starts with "time was that the canonical result from a Google search would probably be a link to some spec documents or some general advice around the language."20:21
jrwrenthis is not true, nor was it ever true.20:21
snap-ljrwren: ++20:21
rick_h_snap-l: didn't say let's go fix it. Just interesting. I'd seen some copy/paster stuff on there but hadn't put it with really basic google searches20:21
nullspacerick_h_: I have been hearing this from several other developers that they are noticing that exact trend20:21
snap-lYou'd get some other BS blog post20:21
jrwrenyup, shitty blog post, or shitty usenet post or google group if it was before the blog boom20:22
jrwrenor you'd get nothing if it was pre-gooogle20:22
snap-lSo instead of serching Google, ask God for the answer20:22
snap-lI'm sure it'll be more researched.20:22
snap-lYou can't protect against garbage answers20:22
jrwrenyou used to get experts exchange hits.20:23
jrwrenthat is why stackoverflow was created, remember, because exertsexchange sucks20:23
nullspaceI think google could easily push their code university regarding cases like that20:23
jrwrenand i don't want an ExpertSexChange20:23
snap-land if you can't be assed to delve deeper, then please stop being a developer20:23
nullspacethough how many people learn to code on the web get scooped up by corporations to write their code?20:26
_stink_what other way is there to learn to code?20:27
snap-lnullspace: I'm not even sure how to start to take that apart. :)20:27
snap-lJust because you learned your instrument on the street doesn't mean you're any less of a proficient player.20:27
jrwrenschool doesn't teach anyone to program very well.20:28
nullspacebut it does teach the basics20:28
jrwrenif you stop learning when you leave school, you have failed and are a shitty coder20:28
_stink_i know of no person who finished a program in anything who couldn't learn about 50 times more than they just learned in school from the interwebs.20:28
nullspaceI feel like your putting words in my mouth20:28
jrwreni could argue that it doesn't even teach teh basics, general programming.20:28
_stink_wrt writing software.20:28
snap-lIf I were to have stopped learning out of school, I'd be writing things in turbo pascal and Atari Basic. :)20:28
jrwrenyou did atari basic in school?!!?!?20:29
nullspacewouldn't it give them enough to play with and learn on their own and form specific questions to google for?20:29
jjesseso why even get a college education?  just google everything20:29
jrwrenjjesse: i know lots of people for whom that has worked.20:29
snap-ljrwren: I had BASIC in elementary and high school.20:30
jjessejrwren, interesting how did they get pass the "college degree' requirement to get the job20:30
jrwrenonly shitty workplaces have a "college degree requirement"20:30
brouschWork for yourself. Make great things. Get hired without a degree20:31
_stink_or else those requirements are ignored if the hiring manager wants yoj.20:31
nullspaceso 90% of the employeers are shitty places to work20:31
jjessemy job has a college degree requirement does that make it a shitty place to work/20:31
jrwreni wouldn't say 90% of employeers, because of so many wonderful small business.20:31
jrwren90% of employement positions are shitty positions, yes.20:32
jrwrenjjesse: likely.20:32
jjessewow that is harsh20:32
greg-gunenlightened, at least20:32
greg-gnullspace: you know jrwren, right? :P20:32
jrwreni'm not trolling, I'm just opinionated.20:32
* greg-g failed at ignoring IRC20:32
nullspaceI'll give you that every place has it's shitty parts but they are far from 100% shitty20:32
nullspaceand besides if they don't hire smart people how will they ever get rid/ or fix those shitty parts20:33
jrwreni agree.20:33
jrwreni agree.20:33
jrwrenhire smart people and fix shitty parts, regardless of a college degree.20:33
nullspacewell I did hire a guy who doesn't have a degree20:34
nullspaceawesome programmer, teaching me some things20:34
jrwrenwhat happened to the college degree requirement?20:35
nullspacethose that had college degrees sucked20:35
nullspaceI found no qualified people aside from this guy20:35
nullspaceplus we had worked together previously20:35
nullspacebut he did have some college20:36
greg-gso he's a quitter?20:37
* greg-g trolls20:37
nullspaceand previous employemment20:37
jrwrenI like quitters.20:37
* greg-g is here to make _stink_ laugh20:37
greg-git's a good gig20:37
jrwrenQuitters are awesome. They quit smoking. They quit doing smack. They quit writing shitty code.20:37
nullspacethough he started to learn to code in school and so did I20:39
greg-gpeople do tend to hire people similar to themselves20:40
greg-gthat's really a meta statement, not really anything specific to anyone20:40
nullspaceI think that would breed weakness20:40
greg-gnullspace: which is why hiring is really hard, and many orgs are bad at it, and people are trained in how to do it better20:40
nullspacethat seems like it could be a vicious cycle20:41
nullspacecould they hire bad trainers or companys that hire bad tainers that train others how to hire?20:42
greg-gpeople being trained how to do things better based on past experience/research sounds like a properous cycle20:42
nullspaceif that's how it works then I'd agree20:42
greg-gof course, there are dumb people everywhere20:42
greg-gthey do badly, and don't get hired again20:42
nullspaceuh huh sure that's how it works20:43
greg-gok, they get hired by even more stupid orgs and become dead weight, I've seen 'em before20:43
jrwrenits how at works in the world of awesome places where greg-g is.20:44
greg-gI'm lucky that I get to work at an org that is intelligent with it's hiring20:44
jrwrenremember, greg-g has lived in the reality distortion fields of ann arbor and san fransisco for the past 10 yrs!20:44
greg-gjrwren: but, the university is FULL of those dead weight people who fail other places20:44
jrwrenis it?20:45
greg-gI can point out a few people and managers, yeah20:45
greg-gthat I directly worked with20:45
jrwrenwe hired a guy from teh U, and he is pretty awesome.20:45
greg-goh, yeah, they aren't all bad (I"20:45
greg-gI'm not!)20:45
nullspaceanyone else see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csyL9EC0S0c20:46
nullspacetotally relevant20:46
jrwreni turned it off.20:46
* greg-g really ignores IRC now20:46
rick_h_cool! https://github.com/pokey9000/twostep21:54
rick_h_crazy and not ready for prime time but still cool step21:54
brouschPebble is dead. Long-live Glass23:42

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