[00:19] <rick_h_> http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/15/netflix-html5-chromebooks/ woot
[12:48] <snap-l> Good morning
[12:48] <rick_h_> morning
[12:50] <nullspace> work sucks when your waiting on others to do their job
[12:50] <rick_h_> needing to do other's jobs for them
[12:50] <snap-l> nullspace: That's what a waiting for list is for. :)
[12:50] <rick_h_> that sucks worse :)
[12:50] <snap-l> So you can park it and move on. :)
[12:50] <snap-l> rick_h_: Hey, I'm the most theoretically productive person I know. :)
[12:51] <nullspace> I can do some of their job but I'm not envious of the conversation they need to have with our collective boss telling them that they are wrong in their shoot from the hip ideas
[12:55] <nullspace> dislike the idea of being a yes man, but I'm not a fan of telling my boss your idea is stupid
[12:56] <snap-l> There are tactful ways to tell your boss to rethink his position
[12:56] <snap-l> none of which use the word "stupid"
[12:56] <nullspace> I've tried a couple, he's not reading between the lines
[12:57] <nullspace> so thus we are down to an uncomfortabel conversation where he has to explain his actions
[13:01] <nullspace> needless it needs to be handled delicately
[13:07] <jrwren> i tell my boss his ideas are stupid all the time.
[13:07] <jrwren> and then I tell him why.
[13:07] <jrwren> i don't use the word stupid.
[13:21] <snap-l> Well, I was excited about Elsevier partnering with O'Reilly books, but apparently all of the titles that I care about for Game Development are now with CRC press
[13:21] <snap-l> and they appear to have not hit the enlightenment age of ebooks
[13:33] <jrwren> there are good books for game development? :)
[13:33] <snap-l> Yeah, there's some decent ones for AI, game desgin, etc.
[13:34] <snap-l> And Morgan Kaufman had a bunch of them that apparently are now published by CRC press
[13:36] <snap-l> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780123847171.do <- there is no reason a book on Tcl / Tk should be a $709 ebook
[13:36] <snap-l> er, $70
[13:36] <snap-l> though $709 is even less justifiable. ;)
[13:37] <brousch> It is rare and valuable knowledge which cannot be easily duplicated
[13:38] <_stink_> they're everywhere
[13:38] <snap-l> It's a language that lost half it's userbase once we stopped trying to pick apart dial-up modem PPP connections
[13:38] <_stink_> oops, miscan
[13:38] <_stink_> h
[13:38] <snap-l> _stink_: You were ahead. :)
[13:41] <_stink_> hazards of irssi by phone.
[13:56] <brousch> I was excited by this until I realized it's just a Google App Engine webapp https://github.com/googleglass/mirror-quickstart-python
[14:01] <brousch> Anyone going to MobiDevDay Detroit? I have a free ticket
[14:01] <rick_h_> nope
[14:01] <rick_h_> not I
[14:01] <rick_h_> I thought Blazeix was tempted to go
[17:24] <jrwren> django peeps: do you have a good example of a setup.py for your django app?
[17:31] <brousch> For the application a Django app?
[17:31] <brousch> Let me try again. For an application or for a single Django app?
[17:59] <jrwren> yes
[19:07] <jrwren> is there an uninstall for setup.py ?
[19:08] <rick_h_> no
[19:08] <rick_h_> it's why we <3 pip so
[19:08] <rick_h_> and use virtualenvs so we can make clean && make
[19:08] <brousch> rick_h_++
[19:08] <jrwren> i can't figure out module path finding.
[19:08] <jrwren> yes, its a virtualenv
[19:09] <jrwren> ok, pip uninstall worked.
[19:11] <jrwren> find_packages doesn't seem to be finding __init__.py in root of package dir, but docs say that it should.
[19:13] <rick_h_> hmm, yea that sounds bad. Always have a package name dir in the same dir as your setup.py. Never put your setup.py in the same dir
[19:14] <jrwren> i'm not sure what you just said :)
[19:14] <rick_h_> lol
[19:14] <rick_h_> sorry, been a long week
[19:14] <jrwren> any why? when http://pythonhosted.org/distribute/setuptools.html#using-find-packages says it searched . for __init__.py
[19:14] <rick_h_> assuming the same dir that contains a setup.py has a __init__.py ?
[19:15] <jrwren> yes
[19:15] <rick_h_> don't do that
[19:15] <jrwren> i must.
[19:15] <rick_h_> then quit :P
[19:15] <jrwren> nevar.
[19:16] <jrwren> i'll rewrite setuptools if I must
[19:16] <rick_h_> lol
[19:16] <rick_h_> enjoy, that walls broken many a man
[19:16] <jrwren> brownfield dev leads to fun things.
[19:18] <jrwren> ok, I see what is happening now.
[19:18] <jrwren> don't do that.
[19:18] <jrwren> :)
[19:18] <jrwren> ugh.
[19:20] <rick_h_> lol
[19:23] <snap-l> jrwren: Remember Star Wars?
[19:24] <jrwren> its a trap?
[19:24] <jrwren> that was return of the jedi.
[19:24] <jrwren> umm...
[19:24] <snap-l> When R2D2 and Chewbacca were playing chess, and R2D2 was winning, and Chewbacca got mad?
[19:24] <jrwren> But Uncle Owen, I was going to go to toshi station to get some power converters.
[19:25] <jrwren> setuptools will tear your arms off.
[19:25] <snap-l> Rick is always right. Let the Rick win. :)
[19:25] <jrwren> if that were true, he would write in F# or Haskell.
[19:26] <snap-l> That's because they don't want to find out they're wrong
[19:26] <snap-l> They won't let him write in F# or Haskell
[19:26] <snap-l> True story.
[19:27] <rick_h_> lol, trust me...if you could be in my work irc channels you'd see how un-right I can be
[19:28] <brousch> It's obvious rick_h_ isn't always right. Look at his opinion of Django
[19:28] <rick_h_> when I die, my last words will be "$@# you django..."
[19:29] <jrwren> rick_h_: what is your opinion of django?
[19:29] <rick_h_> some people like php, some people like doing web dev in perl, and some people like django...
[19:29] <jrwren> cute.
[19:29] <rick_h_> they've got something in common, they do crap I don't care to do :)
[19:29] <rick_h_> I try :)
[19:30] <jrwren> my opinion is much, much worse :p
[19:30] <rick_h_> hey, if someone can get their job done using eclipse...more power to them. I'll just talk about them behind their backs in my ubuntu irc channels lol
[19:30]  * brousch alt-tabs away from pydev
[19:32] <brousch> rick_h_: So what's your ideal web development framework?
[19:32] <rick_h_> brousch: pyramid
[19:32] <brousch> That's as good as it gets?
[19:32] <rick_h_> it fixes about everything I hated about pylons
[19:33] <rick_h_> like my pebble it just keeps getting better. :P
[19:33] <jrwren> used flask for something trivial. it was great.
[19:33] <snap-l> http://memegenerator.net/instance/37050320
[19:33] <jrwren> django has 1 thing going for it: the admin interface. if you aren't using the admin interface, django is the wrong choice.
[19:34] <brousch> Ha, you'll be proud of me. I met some guys at a meeting that were talking about doing a new project in Django, except they weren't going to use the ORM, or the templating, so I tried to convince them to try Pyramid instead
[19:34] <rick_h_> and 90% of that can be solved with phpmyadmin/pgmyadmin/real code
[19:35] <brousch> Really? Use phpmyadmin as the admin for your python website? That's just wrong!
[19:36] <jrwren> agree, it doesn't solve 90%
[19:37] <jrwren> django orm + admin interface does some *very nice things*
[19:38] <snap-l> http://memegenerator.net/instance/37050432
[19:38] <snap-l> rick_h_: ^^
[19:41] <brousch> snap-l: beautiful
[19:58] <rick_h_> time to go try starbucks as my away work place vs my poor closed caribou
[19:58] <brousch> Welcome to the dark side
[20:01] <widox> rick_h_: :(
[20:02] <greg-g> rick_h_: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[20:11] <rick_h_> I know, I've got to get out of the house!
[20:12] <rick_h_> and I walk into a table full of kids playing magic
[20:12] <rick_h_> *sigh*
[20:13] <jrwren> could be worse, could be yugio
[20:13] <greg-g> wait, *kids* still play magic?! I thought that was only 30+ people now?
[20:13] <greg-g> yeah, thought it transitioned to those games, the ones I forgot that jrwren didn't
[20:13] <rick_h_> if any of them shave weekly I'd be surprised
[20:13] <greg-g> so they're asian?
[20:13] <rick_h_> lol
[20:13]  * greg-g apologizes
[20:13] <rick_h_> no, I live in whitey ville
[20:13] <greg-g> or...
[20:14] <greg-g> so they're girls?
[20:14] <greg-g> alright, /ignoring IRC for a bit.....
[20:14] <jrwren> i think those games are big amongst azns
[20:14] <jrwren> or maybe just some starcraft overlap
[20:16] <rick_h_> interesting http://tosbourn.com/2013/04/development/stack-exchange-is-winning-the-internet-and-this-is-not-a-good-thing/
[20:18] <jrwren> stupid.
[20:19] <rick_h_> I don't know it's stupid. I think it's a boon for copy/paste coders that don't understand what it's doing.
[20:19] <snap-l> I'm sorry, but that's a red herring
[20:20] <snap-l> If you're not willing to put forth more than 5 minutes to understand what it is you're pasting from a site, you're asking for trouble
[20:21] <snap-l> And instead of whining, what's the solution?
[20:21] <snap-l> Kill Stack Exchange?
[20:21] <jrwren> the post starts with "time was that the canonical result from a Google search would probably be a link to some spec documents or some general advice around the language."
[20:21] <jrwren> this is not true, nor was it ever true.
[20:21] <snap-l> jrwren: ++
[20:21] <rick_h_> snap-l: didn't say let's go fix it. Just interesting. I'd seen some copy/paster stuff on there but hadn't put it with really basic google searches
[20:21] <nullspace> rick_h_: I have been hearing this from several other developers that they are noticing that exact trend
[20:21] <snap-l> You'd get some other BS blog post
[20:22] <jrwren> yup, shitty blog post, or shitty usenet post or google group if it was before the blog boom
[20:22] <jrwren> or you'd get nothing if it was pre-gooogle
[20:22] <snap-l> So instead of serching Google, ask God for the answer
[20:22] <snap-l> I'm sure it'll be more researched.
[20:22] <snap-l> You can't protect against garbage answers
[20:23] <jrwren> you used to get experts exchange hits.
[20:23] <jrwren> that is why stackoverflow was created, remember, because exertsexchange sucks
[20:23] <nullspace> I think google could easily push their code university regarding cases like that
[20:23] <jrwren> and i don't want an ExpertSexChange
[20:23] <snap-l> and if you can't be assed to delve deeper, then please stop being a developer
[20:26] <nullspace> though how many people learn to code on the web get scooped up by corporations to write their code?
[20:27] <_stink_> what other way is there to learn to code?
[20:27] <snap-l> nullspace: I'm not even sure how to start to take that apart. :)
[20:27] <nullspace> school
[20:27] <snap-l> Just because you learned your instrument on the street doesn't mean you're any less of a proficient player.
[20:27] <rick_h_> lol
[20:28] <jrwren> school doesn't teach anyone to program very well.
[20:28] <nullspace> but it does teach the basics
[20:28] <jrwren> if you stop learning when you leave school, you have failed and are a shitty coder
[20:28] <_stink_> i know of no person who finished a program in anything who couldn't learn about 50 times more than they just learned in school from the interwebs.
[20:28] <nullspace> I feel like your putting words in my mouth
[20:28] <jrwren> i could argue that it doesn't even teach teh basics, general programming.
[20:28] <_stink_> wrt writing software.
[20:28] <snap-l> If I were to have stopped learning out of school, I'd be writing things in turbo pascal and Atari Basic. :)
[20:29] <jrwren> you did atari basic in school?!!?!?
[20:29] <nullspace> wouldn't it give them enough to play with and learn on their own and form specific questions to google for?
[20:29] <jrwren> exactly.
[20:29] <jjesse> so why even get a college education?  just google everything
[20:29] <jrwren> jjesse: i know lots of people for whom that has worked.
[20:30] <snap-l> jrwren: I had BASIC in elementary and high school.
[20:30] <jjesse> jrwren, interesting how did they get pass the "college degree' requirement to get the job
[20:30] <nullspace> ^
[20:30] <jrwren> only shitty workplaces have a "college degree requirement"
[20:31] <brousch> Work for yourself. Make great things. Get hired without a degree
[20:31] <_stink_> or else those requirements are ignored if the hiring manager wants yoj.
[20:31] <nullspace> so 90% of the employeers are shitty places to work
[20:31] <jjesse> my job has a college degree requirement does that make it a shitty place to work/
[20:31] <jrwren> i wouldn't say 90% of employeers, because of so many wonderful small business.
[20:32] <jrwren> 90% of employement positions are shitty positions, yes.
[20:32] <jrwren> jjesse: likely.
[20:32] <jjesse> wow that is harsh
[20:32] <greg-g> unenlightened, at least
[20:32] <greg-g> ;)
[20:32] <nullspace> troll
[20:32] <greg-g> nullspace: you know jrwren, right? :P
[20:32] <jrwren> i'm not trolling, I'm just opinionated.
[20:32]  * greg-g failed at ignoring IRC
[20:32] <_stink_> hah
[20:32] <nullspace> I'll give you that every place has it's shitty parts but they are far from 100% shitty
[20:33] <nullspace> and besides if they don't hire smart people how will they ever get rid/ or fix those shitty parts
[20:33] <jrwren> i agree.
[20:33] <jrwren> i agree.
[20:33] <jrwren> hire smart people and fix shitty parts, regardless of a college degree.
[20:34] <nullspace> well I did hire a guy who doesn't have a degree
[20:34] <nullspace> awesome programmer, teaching me some things
[20:35] <jrwren> what happened to the college degree requirement?
[20:35] <nullspace> those that had college degrees sucked
[20:35] <nullspace> I found no qualified people aside from this guy
[20:35] <nullspace> plus we had worked together previously
[20:36] <nullspace> but he did have some college
[20:37] <greg-g> so he's a quitter?
[20:37]  * greg-g trolls
[20:37] <_stink_> ulz
[20:37] <nullspace> and previous employemment
[20:37] <_stink_> lulz
[20:37] <jrwren> I like quitters.
[20:37]  * greg-g is here to make _stink_ laugh
[20:37] <_stink_> aw.
[20:37] <greg-g> it's a good gig
[20:37] <jrwren> Quitters are awesome. They quit smoking. They quit doing smack. They quit writing shitty code.
[20:37] <greg-g> hah
[20:39] <nullspace> though he started to learn to code in school and so did I
[20:40] <greg-g> people do tend to hire people similar to themselves
[20:40] <greg-g> that's really a meta statement, not really anything specific to anyone
[20:40] <nullspace> I think that would breed weakness
[20:40] <greg-g> nullspace: which is why hiring is really hard, and many orgs are bad at it, and people are trained in how to do it better
[20:41] <nullspace> that seems like it could be a vicious cycle
[20:41] <greg-g> which?
[20:42] <nullspace> could they hire bad trainers or companys that hire bad tainers that train others how to hire?
[20:42] <greg-g> people being trained how to do things better based on past experience/research sounds like a properous cycle
[20:42] <nullspace> if that's how it works then I'd agree
[20:42] <greg-g> of course, there are dumb people everywhere
[20:42] <greg-g> they do badly, and don't get hired again
[20:43] <nullspace> uh huh sure that's how it works
[20:43] <greg-g> ok, they get hired by even more stupid orgs and become dead weight, I've seen 'em before
[20:44] <jrwren> its how at works in the world of awesome places where greg-g is.
[20:44] <greg-g> I'm lucky that I get to work at an org that is intelligent with it's hiring
[20:44] <jrwren> remember, greg-g has lived in the reality distortion fields of ann arbor and san fransisco for the past 10 yrs!
[20:44] <greg-g> jrwren: but, the university is FULL of those dead weight people who fail other places
[20:45] <jrwren> is it?
[20:45] <greg-g> I can point out a few people and managers, yeah
[20:45] <greg-g> that I directly worked with
[20:45] <jrwren> we hired a guy from teh U, and he is pretty awesome.
[20:45] <greg-g> oh, yeah, they aren't all bad (I"
[20:45] <greg-g> I'm not!)
[20:46] <nullspace> anyone else see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csyL9EC0S0c
[20:46] <nullspace> totally relevant
[20:46] <jrwren> i turned it off.
[20:46] <greg-g> tl;dw
[20:46]  * greg-g really ignores IRC now
[20:46] <greg-g> laterz
[21:54] <rick_h_> cool! https://github.com/pokey9000/twostep
[21:54] <rick_h_> crazy and not ready for prime time but still cool step
[23:42] <brousch> Pebble is dead. Long-live Glass