[14:35] <hannie> teolemon, if you are in, I just want to say I sent you an email a minute ago with my experiment results
[14:35] <teolemon> looking at it
[14:35] <hannie> ok
[14:37] <teolemon> you have to mark them as translated
[14:37] <teolemon> not fuzzy
[14:37] <teolemon> and import them as translated in the bogus project
[14:38] <hannie> you mean I have to approve them in Lokalize first?
[14:38] <hannie> In that case it is not different from how I used to do it
[14:38] <teolemon> and what you can upload first are machine translations
[14:38] <hannie> what you call machine translation is already in the merged file
[14:38] <teolemon> not quantal
[14:38] <teolemon> raring+ machine translations
[14:39] <hannie> in my case precise-e2 (100% translated)
[14:39] <teolemon> and then the po file with the fuzzy
[14:39] <teolemon> marked as translated
[14:39] <hannie> so precise-e2 + raring > merged
[14:39] <teolemon> can you send me the po file
[14:40] <hannie> ok it is about 928 kB
[14:40] <teolemon> machine translation for me is google translate
[14:40] <hannie> Is that not too big?
[14:40] <teolemon> and did you mark them as translated
[14:41] <hannie> teolemon, if I approve them in Lokalize there is no point in sending the file to manualautomated
[14:41] <teolemon> before uploading
[14:41] <hannie> Because then I have already done the work in Lokalize
[14:41] <teolemon> so that they show up as suggestions ?
[14:41] <teolemon> i should be ok
[14:42] <hannie> If I open the merged file in Lokalize there are more than 500 suggestions called Not ready
[14:42] <teolemon> give it a try
[14:43] <hannie> teolemon, I already have uploaded the merged file with suggestions to LP but the suggestions that show in Lokalize do not show in manualautomated.
[14:43] <teolemon> you mass approve them in a text editor or using keyboard shortcut
[14:44] <hannie> If I approve them in Lokalize there is no point in uploading the file to ubuntuautomated
[14:44] <teolemon> and then several translators can review them
[14:44] <hannie> I can just as well upload it to /ubuntu-manual/raring
[14:44] <teolemon> because you didn't mass validate offline first
[14:44] <hannie> I have to validate one by one. Is there another way?
[14:45] <teolemon> you feed the bogus project with strings you mass validated
[14:45] <teolemon> you don't care about the content
[14:45] <hannie> And where do I mass validate the fuzzies?
[14:45] <teolemon> select all
[14:45] <teolemon> validate
[14:45] <teolemon> save
[14:46] <teolemon> and upload
[14:46] <hannie> Hold on. Select all where? In a text editor? A text editor does not have a function Validate
[14:46] <teolemon> and then
[14:46] <teolemon> 10 people can look at them online
[14:47] <teolemon> and see if modifications are necessary
[14:47] <hannie> teolemon, I think I have to see if Lokalize has this function "validate the whole selection"
[14:48] <teolemon> yes
[14:48] <hannie> Now I think I see what you mean. Before uploading I have to approve the whole selection. I have to check if I can do this in Lokalize. I will let you know.
[14:48] <teolemon> using a text editor
[14:48] <hannie> you mean a CAT
[14:48] <teolemon> or using a keyboard shortcut
[14:49] <teolemon> as you wish
[14:49] <teolemon> #, fuzzy
[14:50] <teolemon> msgid "label 1" //Nouveau msgid
[14:50] <teolemon> you find and replace the fuzzy part
[14:51] <teolemon> to make it look like a regular string
[14:51] <hannie> just a minute, I'll open it in gedit
[14:53] <teolemon> i did it in one or two minutes using shortcut and typing like a crazy person on my keyboard
[14:53] <teolemon> but a find and replace in kedit
[14:54] <teolemon> or any text editor will be even faster
[14:54] <hannie> right, I see #, fuzzy in gedit
[14:54] <hannie> #, fuzzy must be changed to what?
[14:54] <teolemon> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/c4e32486f76e895ee2d4
[14:54] <teolemon> here's an exemple
[14:56] <hannie> Yes, I spotted the #, fuzzy lines. Do I have to delete them or replace them by someting else?
[14:56] <teolemon> find all
[14:56] <teolemon> #, fuzzy
[14:56] <teolemon> replace by
[14:56] <teolemon> (and put nothing)
[14:56] <hannie> ok, so just delete the whole line #, fuzzy
[14:56] <teolemon> and you're done
[14:56] <teolemon> is that ok ?
[14:57] <hannie> I think I get it now. But you still have to find and delete them one by one. There is no bulk deleting in gedit
[14:57] <teolemon> wipe them
[14:58] <hannie> Or is there a command I do not know?
[14:58] <teolemon> to make them look like translated strings
[14:58] <teolemon> yes
[15:00] <teolemon> you can check the result in lokalize
[15:00] <teolemon> if you want
[15:00] <teolemon> eeeh
[15:00] <teolemon> replace all ?
[15:00] <CarstenG> Hannie, try CTRL+H
[15:00] <teolemon> gedit doesn't have a find and replace function
[15:00] <hannie> right. It takes a while to delete 500 #, fuzzy lines
[15:01] <CarstenG> gedit has a replace function.
[15:01] <teolemon> is that what you're implying ?
[15:01] <teolemon> ;-)
[15:01] <hannie> CarstenG, that's the right shortcut (didn't know it, thanks)
[15:01] <CarstenG> Open the window with CTRL+H
[15:01] <teolemon> http://projects.gnome.org/gedit/
[15:02] <teolemon> hum hum
[15:02] <CarstenG> and there you fill the fields and click then »Replace all«
[15:02] <hannie> Ayay, my bad. Didn't know it existed in gedit
[15:02] <teolemon> otherwise, if you're into KDE, you can use a kde text editor
[15:02] <hannie> It is done in a jiffy
[15:02] <teolemon> with more functionnality :-P
[15:03] <hannie> Now I will upload it again to ubuntuautomated
[15:03] <teolemon> ten seconds ?
[15:03] <CarstenG> teo: We are making the manual for GNOME, so we use gedit :-p
[15:03]  * teolemon won't joke about German efficiency :-)
[15:03] <hannie> or less ;)
[15:04] <hannie> I use gedit too
[15:04] <CarstenG> :-)
[15:04] <hannie> I only saw it as a toy compared to big brother Word
[15:04] <teolemon> ^^
[15:05] <hannie> thanks for your patience with me
[15:07] <teolemon> http://manilovefilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/noisy-cricket.jpg
[15:07] <hannie> One thing I have to say to my defence: there is no Find and Replace in the menu bar of gedit
[15:07] <teolemon> small but powerful :-)
[15:07] <CarstenG> Teo: Can you explain this topic »bogus project«, »ubuntuautomated« on the mailing list? It sound interesting, but I did not yet understand it in detail. Also for other translator it would be useful, or?
[15:08] <teolemon> which ml ?
[15:08] <teolemon> ubuntu-translators ?
[15:08] <CarstenG> no our ml
[15:08] <CarstenG> ubuntu-manual
[15:08] <hannie> or both
[15:10] <teolemon> it's basically a rehash of what we did for the ddtp
[15:10] <CarstenG> Hannie: There is a entry in the menu bar \menu{Search \then Replace \ldots} :-)
[15:10] <teolemon> lite.framapad.org/p/ddtpUbuntu
[15:10] <teolemon> http://lite.framapad.org/p/ddtpUbuntu
[15:10] <teolemon> we detailed our methodology here
[15:11] <hannie> CarstenG, I found it under Search, I expected it to be under Edit. O, O, O
[15:11] <teolemon> you know things are bad when you start talking LaTeX to fellow team members
[15:12] <teolemon> hannie, have you uploaded it ?
[15:12] <hannie> I am going to do it in a second
[15:12] <CarstenG> teo: Thanks for this link. I'll have a look
[15:14] <hannie> teolemon, done. Thank you for your upload. In import queue
[15:14] <teolemon> i've added a paragraph
[15:15] <teolemon> on how to unfuzzy strings
[15:16] <teolemon> as we mainly used google translate for ddtp suggestions
[15:17] <hannie> teolemon, are you the one who approves the import?
[15:17] <teolemon> we didn't rely on fuzzy
[15:17] <teolemon> just approve
[15:17] <teolemon> approved it
[15:17] <teolemon> it should appear in a couple of minutes
[15:17] <hannie> ah, great! Thanks
[15:18] <hannie> I am so curious if the result is ok now
[15:18] <teolemon> but you'll have 100 or so strings left to translate fully by youself
[15:19] <hannie> better than 500 ;)
[15:19] <teolemon> possibly more
[15:19] <hannie> I may even decide to translate raring. so far we only do LTS versions of the manual
[15:19] <teolemon> i think so
[15:19] <teolemon> or maybe you can approve it yourself
[15:20] <hannie> 100 strings of the manual is different from gui strings (much shorter)
[15:21] <teolemon> as ubuntu-translators member
[15:21] <hannie> Not many of my fellow translators like the long strings
[15:21] <teolemon> I can guarantee that when you do that at DDTP scale
[15:21] <CarstenG> Teo: It looks like that the project https://launchpad.net/ubuntumanualautomated is for the current raring translation. Is it possible to use it also for the quantal version?
[15:21] <teolemon> you get a great chill
[15:21] <teolemon> (teaser ^^)
[15:21] <hannie> lol
[15:21] <teolemon> and we should be good !
[15:21] <teolemon> have a look
[15:22] <hannie> We may start working on DDTP again if I can do the fuzzy trick there too
[15:22] <teolemon> you have 207 strings left
[15:22] <CarstenG> Or should we create a https://launchpad.net/ubuntumanualautomated-quantal
[15:22] <teolemon> do you want me to add automated suggestions ?
[15:22] <teolemon> we'd need to upload the quantal template
[15:22] <teolemon> but yes
[15:22] <CarstenG> ?
[15:22] <teolemon> we've finished quantal so i didn't do it
[15:22] <teolemon> (French love to brag)
[15:23] <teolemon> on the ddtp
[15:23] <hannie> We have a shortage of translators at Ubuntu Dutch Translators
[15:23] <teolemon> fuzzy is not enough
[15:24] <hannie> teolemon, I know I have to study the instructions you wrote. Haven't found time to do it yet
[15:24] <teolemon> you need automation
[15:24] <teolemon> not useful
[15:24] <hannie> Yes, automation is the key word
[15:24] <teolemon> and polluting launchpad
[15:24] <hannie> We are very grateful what you did for ddtp. I have started to work with Nightmonkey again
[15:25] <hannie> And a good idea to find people with interest in a specific field
[15:25] <teolemon> use Ubuntu Robot Dutch Translators
[15:25] <hannie> :)
[15:25] <teolemon> they don't complain
[15:26] <teolemon> do the work in 5 minutes
[15:26] <hannie> There is always a human behind the robot ;)
[15:26] <teolemon> don't eat
[15:26] <teolemon> don't breathe
[15:26] <teolemon> my wish is that we all automated
[15:26] <hannie> yeah, definitely
[15:27] <hannie> You have made a good start. Keep up the good work!
[15:27] <teolemon> the ddtp have been here for too long
[15:27] <CarstenG> Teo: Nice, if you could upload the template for quantal. But I first have to generate the merged po file based on the precise translation.
[15:27] <teolemon> i want to get done with it
[15:27] <hannie> I am going to have a look at ubuntuautomated
[15:27] <teolemon> once and for all
[15:27] <teolemon> it should be crowdsourced
[15:28] <hannie> Kissy, kissy, only 207 untranslated........
[15:28] <teolemon> and then the translators act as reviewers
[15:29] <hannie> teolemon, there is a small risk that I approved strings that shouldn't have been approved
[15:29] <teolemon> robots >reviewed by> humans non translators >reviewed by> ubuntu professional reviewers
[15:30] <teolemon> it's a pyramid
[15:31] <teolemon> the thing is I can't push other teams
[15:31] <hannie> teolemon, I will try to revive the ddtp translation in the Dutch team
[15:31] <teolemon> i've requested a pot for quantal
[15:32] <CarstenG> Hannie: I have a problem with the msgmerge...
[15:32] <hannie> CarstenG, what's the problem?
[15:32] <teolemon> and google translate could give you suggestions for the rest
[15:32] <CarstenG> I do a
[15:32] <CarstenG> $ msgmerge precise.po quantal.po > quantal_merged.po
[15:32] <teolemon> we're down to 50
[15:32] <hannie> CarstenG, are you in the directory with the po files?
[15:32] <teolemon> where ?
[15:33] <teolemon> in the automated project ?
[15:33] <CarstenG> and now I get in the merged file a fuzzy string wich was already translated in the quantal.po.
[15:33] <hannie> CarstenG, only one? Perhaps there was a slight change
[15:33] <CarstenG> So is there a way to ignore already translated strings in the quantal file?
[15:34] <CarstenG> No, there are more...
[15:34] <teolemon> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/quantal/+pots/ubuntu-manual/nl/+translate?show=untranslated&direction=backwards&memo=430&start=420
[15:34] <teolemon> have a look
[15:34] <teolemon> the suggestions are showing up in quantal as well
[15:34] <hannie> CarstenG, why would you ignore already translated strings? they should be in the merged file
[15:34] <teolemon> CarstenG
[15:35] <CarstenG> Ok, let me give an example for better understanding.
[15:36] <teolemon> i can put online automatic suggestions for multiverse if you're interested to test
[15:37] <hannie> by all means. I am willing to test things for you
[15:37] <hannie> or for us the Dutch team
[15:37] <teolemon> if you're satisfied with the quality we can then put it for main and universe
[15:38] <hannie> I do not like google translate very much, although it is getting better lately
[15:38] <hannie> I only use it for common words. Do you know trans.eu?
[15:38] <teolemon> i've uploaded the template for quantal
[15:38] <hannie> sorry opentran.eu
[15:38] <CarstenG> Lets use the glossary entry »Canonical« as example.
[15:38] <CarstenG> In precise I have:
[15:38] <teolemon> if you want we can do a google hangout so that I can share my screen and drive you through all this
[15:38] <CarstenG> \\newglossaryentry{Canonical}{name={Canonical}, description={Canonical, the financial backer of Ubuntu, provides support for the core Ubuntu system. It
[15:38] <CarstenG> has over 310 paid staff members worldwide who ensure that the foundation of the operating system is stable, as well as checking all the work submitted
[15:38] <CarstenG> by volunteer contributors.  To learn more about Canonical, go to \\url{http://www.canonical.com}.}}
[15:38] <CarstenG> \\newglossaryentry{Canonical}{name={Canonical}, description={Canonical, der Geldgeber Ubuntus, leistet Unterstützung für das Ubuntu-Kernsystem.
[15:38] <CarstenG> Canonical verfügt über mehr als 310 bezahlte Mitarbeiter weltweit, die sicherstellen, dass die Basis des Betriebssystems stabil ist, und die die
[15:38] <CarstenG> Arbeit von Freiwilligen überprüfen. Mehr über Canonical erfahren Sie unter \\url{http://www.canonical.com}.}}
[15:40] <CarstenG> In qnatal this string is already translated:
[15:40] <CarstenG> \\newglossaryentry{Canonical}{name={Canonical}, description={Canonical, the financial backer of Ubuntu, provides support for the core Ubuntu system. It
[15:40] <CarstenG> has over 500 staff members worldwide who ensure that the foundation of the operating system is stable, as well as checking all the work submitted by
[15:40] <CarstenG> volunteer contributors.  To learn more about Canonical, go to \\url{http://www.canonical.com}.}}
[15:40] <CarstenG> \\newglossaryentry{Canonical}{name={Canonical}, description={Canonical ist der Finanzsponsor von Ubuntu und betreut das Herzstück des Ubuntu-Systems.
[15:40] <CarstenG> Canonical beschäftigt weltweit über 500 Betriebsangehörige, die sicherstellen, dass die Basis des Betriebssystems stabil läuft, und die auch
[15:40] <CarstenG> sämtliche Beiträge gegenprüfen, die von freiwillig Mitwirkenden eingereicht werden. Um mehr über Canonical zu erfahren, folgen Sie \\url{http://www.canonical.com}.}}
[15:41] <hannie> CarstenG, so you are talking about the change from 310 to 500 staff members?
[15:42] <CarstenG> In qnatal this string is already translated:
[15:42] <CarstenG> \\newglossaryentry{Canonical}{name={Canonical}, description={Canonical, the financial backer of Ubuntu, provides support for the core Ubuntu system. It
[15:42] <CarstenG> has over 500 staff members worldwide who ensure that the foundation of the operating system is stable, as well as checking all the work submitted by
[15:42] <CarstenG> volunteer contributors.  To learn more about Canonical, go to \\url{http://www.canonical.com}.}}
[15:42] <CarstenG> \\newglossaryentry{Canonical}{name={Canonical}, description={Canonical, der Geldgeber Ubuntus, leistet Unterstützung für das Ubuntu-Kernsystem.
[15:42] <CarstenG> Canonical verfügt über mehr als 310 bezahlte Mitarbeiter weltweit, die sicherstellen, dass die Basis des Betriebssystems stabil ist, und die die
[15:42] <CarstenG> Arbeit von Freiwilligen überprüfen. Mehr über Canonical erfahren Sie unter \\url{http://www.canonical.com}.}}
[15:43] <hannie> Yes, and the translation will also be in raring when you merge. What's wrong with that?
[15:44] <CarstenG> Hannie: Its no the change from 300 to 500 staff members... The problem is, that I get in the merged file a fuzzy string for an entry which is already translated in quantal.
[15:45] <hannie> CarstenG, it will not be a fuzzy anymore when you remove all the #, fuzzy lines from the merged file
[15:46] <hannie> As I have only just learned from teolemon
[15:46] <hannie> You DO want to keep the translation of a long message, even if there has been a slight change
[15:49] <CarstenG> In short words:
[15:49] <CarstenG> My "problem":
[15:49] <CarstenG> precise translated -- quantal translated --> in merged file string from precise, marked as fuzzy.
[15:49] <CarstenG> My expected behaviour:
[15:49] <CarstenG> * precise translated -- quantal translated --> in merged file string from quantal, not marked as fuzzy.
[15:49] <CarstenG> * precise translated -- quantal NOT translated --> in merged file string from precise, marked as fuzzy
[15:49] <hannie> teolemon, I suggest I start reading / experiment with your google translate instructions. After that I'll come back to you and see how we are going to do it for the Dutch language
[15:49] <teolemon> ok
[15:50] <teolemon> or if you're feeling like it
[15:50] <teolemon> i can screencast by doing multiverse
[15:51] <teolemon> while you're doing main
[15:51] <teolemon> and ask me any questions during the screencast
[15:51] <hannie> teolemon, forgive me, but what do you mean by screencast?
[15:52] <teolemon> and CarstenG can join too if he's interested for de
[15:52] <teolemon> we can have up to 8 persons attenting
[15:52] <hannie> do you mean the hangout?
[15:52] <teolemon> google hangout
[15:52] <hannie> ok
[15:52] <teolemon> where i share my screen
[15:52] <teolemon> instead of my face
[15:53] <teolemon> and meanwhile, we talk
[15:53] <hannie> yes, good idea. But I have to prepare before I join
[15:53] <teolemon> do you have a google account ?
[15:54] <hannie> teolemon, yes, but so far, for privacy reasons, I refused to participate in hangouts ;)
[15:54] <teolemon> ok
[15:54] <teolemon> but you don't need to prepare much
[15:55] <hannie> you may see if you can plan a date and time, I will do some reading in the meantime
[15:55] <teolemon> as we'll do the same thing at the same time
[15:55] <teolemon> it's a fuc***g efficient way to work
[15:55] <teolemon> ok
[15:55] <hannie> I suppose so. I'll participate
[15:55] <teolemon> if you so wish
[15:56] <teolemon> i had a couple of spare hours before our release lunch
[15:57] <hannie> CarstenG, if precise translated -- quantal translated --> merged there must have been a slight difference between the two messages
[15:57] <teolemon> so i intended to put them to good use :-)
[15:57] <hannie> otherwise you do NOT get a fuzzy
[15:58] <hannie> teolemon, se if you can find a convenient time and date for yourself and call for participants using doodle
[15:58] <hannie> *see
[15:59] <hannie> teolemon, I'm sure Redmar will also be interested
[16:03] <CarstenG> Hannie: yes, you are right. In this case is a difference between the precise and quantal string. But I'm wondering why I get the precise string as suggestion, if the quantal string is already translated. Or I have not yet understand the idea behind msgmerge...
[16:07] <hannie> The strings of the first file are merged with those of the second, resulting in fuzzies in the third file if there is a difference between the two
[16:08] <hannie> CarstenG, that is why it is a bit dangerous to change too many things in a new manual version
[16:09] <hannie> Example \newglossaryentry was removed in raring, resulting in more than 20 fuzzies (all glossary entries)
[16:10] <hannie> The same goes for splitting long paragraphs. It should be to the benefit of translators, but changing them means a lot more fuzzies
[16:13] <hannie> ok, guys, time for a pause. See you
[16:17] <CarstenG> ok, see you Hannie.
[16:17] <CarstenG> Teo: I see now two templates for the German language on https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntumanualautomated
[16:17] <CarstenG> Thanks.
[16:18] <CarstenG> So I can now upload the merged po files there? quantal.po and raring.po?
[16:41] <teolemon> i goofed a bit i thin
[16:41] <teolemon> in both
[16:41] <teolemon> it doesn't matter
[16:42] <teolemon> launchpad will accept anything
[16:42] <teolemon> the suggestions will show anyway
[16:46] <CarstenG> what went wrong?
[16:47] <teolemon> i think i overwrote the raring template with the quantal template
[16:47] <teolemon> but the translations are still showing up for French and Dutch
[16:47] <teolemon> i think lp doesn't care much
[16:48] <teolemon> it swallows everything
[16:48] <teolemon> and then uses them as suggestions
[16:48] <CarstenG> Well, I see both, raring and quantal in German language.
[16:48] <teolemon> cool
[16:48] <teolemon> then yes
[16:49] <CarstenG> should the file I will upload, have a specific name?
[16:49] <teolemon> upload them in their respective templates
[16:49] <teolemon> no
[16:49] <CarstenG> ok
[16:50] <teolemon> give it the name you want
[16:51] <CarstenG> ok, ubuntu-manual-quantal-de.po is just uploaded.
[16:58] <teolemon> it's live normally
[16:58] <teolemon> i approved it
[17:03] <CarstenG> grrrr.
[17:03] <CarstenG> I forgot to remove the fuzzy string
[17:03] <CarstenG> Ok, then I have to upload it again. :-)
[17:10] <teolemon> ok
[17:14] <teolemon> it's good
[17:33] <CarstenG> ok, fine.
[17:34] <CarstenG> How long does it take, that the strings appear in the ubuntu-manual as suggestions?
[17:35] <teolemon> a couple of minutes to a couple of hours
[17:35] <teolemon> it depends
[17:39] <CarstenG> ok
[18:00] <teolemon_> is it working ok now ?
[18:16] <CarstenG> no, not yet.
[19:19] <teolemon> can you try uploading it into raring as well ?
[19:28] <CarstenG> I would, but I did not yet received the po file from LP.