[00:21] <m_3> davecheney: good to hear
[00:25] <davecheney> m_3: i can't remember what I said :)
[00:25] <davecheney> it was yesterday
[00:27] <davecheney> grr, hp cloud is having a loe down
[00:27] <davecheney> it can't talk to anything outside the network
[00:27] <davecheney> which makes bootstrapping a bit problematic
[10:30] <davecheney> Apr 28 10:29:56 juju-goscale2-machine-0 mongod.37017[9332]: Sun Apr 28 10:29:56 [conn1999] query
[10:30] <davecheney> juju.txns.log query: { $query: {}, $orderby: { $natural: -1 } } cursorid:6469952084798152748 ntor
[10:30] <davecheney> eturn:10 ntoskip:0 nscanned:11 keyUpdates:0 numYields: 1 locks(micros) r:486329 nreturned:10 resl
[10:30] <davecheney> en:948 267ms
[10:30] <davecheney> are these log times bad ?
[20:53] <fwereade> davecheney, morning
[20:54] <fwereade> davecheney, I was wondering if you considered https://codereview.appspot.com/8953044 suitably trivial? it was agreed in the discussions preceding the original CL but we forgot to actually implement it then :/
[20:55]  * fwereade goes to do housey things for a bit, will be back soon
[21:10] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, heyhey
[21:10] <rogpeppe1> yo!
[21:10] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, how's it going?
[21:11] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: trying to write family emails and you're a welcome distraction :-)
[21:11] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: how's you?
[21:11] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, I consider https://codereview.appspot.com/8953044 to be plausibly trivial, because this was always the agreed behaviour AIUI: https://codereview.appspot.com/8953044
[21:11] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, I's good :)
[21:11]  * rogpeppe1 is not looking at anything work related just now
[21:11] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, a few cylinders are starting to fire again
[21:12] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, no worries :)
[21:12] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: that's good. you must've burned out a few
[21:12] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, had a nice weekend, lots of laura time
[21:12] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, was definitely needed
[21:13] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: we had a nice weekend building smart new veg beds from old scaff boards
[21:13] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, excellent
[21:14] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: not quite done yet, but excellent progress made (and some celebratory g&ts as the sun went down)
[21:14] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, I've been reading jonathan strange and mr norrell
[21:14] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: good innit?
[21:14] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, it's rather good I think
[21:14] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, oh yes
[21:15] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: i kinda stole it off my sister in law one xmas (she'd just been given it) and read it far too fast before she noticed
[21:15] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: i'm on the fourth bear
[21:15] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: but not v far in
[21:15] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, haha, nice, I have done that on a few occasions
[21:17] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, it is not impossible that you will cast it aside with a bewildered WTF, I am not sure how much my enjoyment of that one was based on knowledge of the wider world from his other books
[21:17] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: the fire is flaming nicely and the foster cat is happily snoozing on the sofa.
[21:17] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: we'll see
[21:17] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: i'm reserving judgement for the moment
[21:18] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: the context i had from you has been useful
[21:18] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, yeah, I don't think that's explained at all
[21:18] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, at least not when you kinda need to know it
[21:18] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: i think there was one brief aside
[21:19] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: interesting to see results of dave's stress tests.
[21:19] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, definitely
[21:19] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: oops, work related.
[21:20] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: must write email :-)
[21:20] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, do we ever need that internal api :)
[21:20] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: indeed
[21:20] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, I have a few threads I need to draw together myself
[21:20] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: i was happy that the gui seemed to work fine with all those nodes
[21:20] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, that's awesome
[21:21] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: that's only one client for the API mind :-)
[21:21]  * fwereade removes hat
[21:21] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, sure
[21:21] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, but it's always nice to break after some other component ;p
[21:21] <rogpeppe1> :-)
[21:22]  * rogpeppe1 hasn't quite worked out what to say on the subject of error reporting vs logging yet, but feels there is sensible something lurking around
[21:25] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, well, every piece of context you describe *could* be provided by logging
[21:25] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: if we were happy with logging 1GB/minute
[21:26] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, but it is indeed a tradeoff in many things
[21:26] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: yeah
[21:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, I think that more logging *and* more error context is likely to be generally helpful
[21:28] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: agreed
[21:28] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: that's the gist of my as yet uncomposed reply
[21:28] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, but there have been times when we have erred toward the massively redundant in our error messages, and I think that's also a problem
[21:29] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: if we err in that direction and prune as needed, i think that's a better approach than the opposite
[21:29] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, yeah
[21:29] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, I find myself pondering state though
[21:30] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, there are a lot of places we pass up unadorned errors from mgo
[21:30] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: indeed
[21:30] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: let's not
[21:31] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, hmm -- this to me is actually a case where I think logging wins out
[21:32] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, "mgo said no" is generally independent of context -- the connection fell over, basically, and there's nowt to be done
[21:32] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: logging errors or logging actions?
[21:32] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, logging actions
[21:32] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, and leaving errors we can't account for to fall out, and the detailed context be pieced together as needed
[21:32] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: we generate enormous log files as is - i'm concerned about the volume of logging data we generate.
[21:32] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: or *will* generate.
[21:33] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, I think that actually implementing fricking log levels will address that
[21:33] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: the problem is that anyone in any significantly sized environment will dial back the log levels
[21:34] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: and then we'll be left with io.EOF
[21:34] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, we don't have to send everything everywhere
[21:35] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: that's a good point actually.
[21:36] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: but still, those API servers are gonna be helluva busy
[21:36] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: when everything's going through the api
[21:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, consider me undecided on how best to address logging
[21:37] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: yeah me too. i agree with you that a combination of better logging *and* better error reporting will be useful
[21:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, the distribution problem smells a little of being amenable to charming, if we can figure out the right interface to expose
[21:38] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: perhaps. some volume estimations may well be useful.
[21:39] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, yeah, just an idle thought
[21:40] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, have been having slightly less idle thoughts about an environs/resource package with Image and Spec structs and Map and Kind interfaces
[21:40] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, but I have been doing that when I should have been reviewing ian's stuff
[21:41]  * fwereade gets he to a codereview
[21:41] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: interesting. i think there's something nice struggling to get out there but i haven't spent any time on it since maas appeared.
[21:42] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, it has kinda clicked -- not in the "it's perfect" sense but the "it's definitely *closer* to perfect" sense
[21:43] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: i want something that's not just a "this appeared vaguely similar in these providers" thing; something that's obviously genuinely helpful in current and future contexts.
[21:43] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, eg it will be as stupid as the individual implementations of Map are wrt caching
[21:43] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, well, it's a step that way -- I don't think Image should *really* be a struct, but I don't want to speculate too far
[21:44] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: i really need to get back to what i'm supposed to be doing :-) look forward to continuing discussions around this topic
[21:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, likewise
[21:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, hey sorry 1 thing?
[21:44] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: 1 :-)
[21:45] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: go on
[21:45] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, davecheney mentioned you were going to fix the unassigned unit thing seen with juju-gui to machine 0; please chat to me about it at your convenience, ideally prior to implementation, I have thoughts
[21:45] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, but not now
[21:46] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: bug #?
[21:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, not sure
[21:47] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, if it's not currently on your mind you can leave it on mine, but I'll cc you in in case it rings a bell, I have a half-reply open
[21:49] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: doesn't ring a bell currently, unless it's the failed deploy thing, in which case i just reported the bug, and had no immediate intention of fixing it
[21:50] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, ah great, I'll find it and assign it to myself then, I have a CL up that addresses the best currently-addressable subset of the problem, I think
[21:58] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: #1173089 ?
[21:58] <_mup_> Bug #1173089: deploy can fail partially <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1173089>
[21:59] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, yeah, that's the one
[21:59] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, got distracted by another bug ;p
[22:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, fwiw I don't think we should rollback -- I think create/assign should be a single txn
[22:29] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: yeah, probs