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sorenHi, guys. On a phone call.. Will try to multitask as best as I can.19:59
* cjwatson appears from lunch19:59
cjwatsonanyone else around?  I saw kees earlier ...20:00
cjwatsonwe have an empty agenda, unless we want to argue about owncloud20:00
cjwatson(or unless I've missed something)20:01
* stgraber waves20:01
meetingologyMeeting started Mon Apr 29 20:03:19 2013 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.20:03
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired20:03
cjwatson#topic action review20:03
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: action review
cjwatsonhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2013-April/001033.html was the last set of minutes and contains no actions20:03
cjwatson#topic mailing list review20:04
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: mailing list review
cjwatsonthe only thing I see here is the owncloud question: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2013-April/001595.html20:04
ScottKRiddell: ^^^20:04
ScottKI can speak to the issue if he's not around.20:05
cjwatsonI think I loosely concur with kees if it's practical to update those libraries, although Mark may also have a point if it's possible to run owncloud on top of juju+lxc or similar (it may not be, I don't know the details and this would require tech analysis)20:05
cjwatsonOTOH this has gone on for a long time and I'm not sure that the outcome of sitting on it is best for our users20:05
cjwatsonjuju+lxc may not be practical for older releases.  But we shouldn't be bothering with something like this for oneiric now, IMO, given that it's about to drop out of support20:06
ScottKI think we'd rather have it in Ubuntu if it's supportable and we have the older releases anyway.20:07
* kees is here.20:07
keesI'm so confused about when this meeting is. :P20:07
cjwatsonHas anyone worked out how much work it'd be to update the dependent libraries directly?  That would certainly be the most regular approach within Ubuntu20:07
keesScottK: heh, thanks20:07
keesmy prior attempt to move it to 2100 london in my calendar seems to have failed. anyway, I'm here now.20:08
ScottKWe did look into a bit.  It's a lot of packages that have other rdepends.20:08
cjwatsonIs the analysis recorded anywhere?20:08
ScottKAnd it's not needing newer packages JUST because of security issues.20:08
cjwatsonNew interfaces?20:09
ScottKI think it's locked in Riddell's brain/laptop.20:09
ScottKAPI changes, I think.20:09
cjwatsonWhat was the last package we had this debate about?  Was it maas?20:09
ScottKIIRC, yes.20:09
cjwatsonSomething in that cluster at least20:09
ScottKWhat I think would be reasonable would be to embed code copies for updates (as was done with $LAST_ANNOYING_PACKAGE) and update libraries that are API/ABI stable but have security/functional issues.20:10
cjwatson"If any of the changes can reasonably be handled within MAAS instead, then they should be, since that would involve the least total risk to 12.04 users."20:10
ScottKThen we'd have a path forward that didn't involve breaking other stuff.20:10
cjwatsonSteve provided a compelling argument for why the requirements for SRU processing were opposed to those for MIR processing, IIRC20:11
ScottKRight, I think something similar makes sense here.20:11
cjwatsonSo I agree that security fixes should be applied directly, but it seems to me that the same argument applies: non-security changes that are required for owncloud should be bundled20:12
cjwatsonIt would be nice to have a complete analysis that breaks down the two cases20:12
cjwatsonagree> with kees, I mean20:12
ScottKAgreed.  I think all Riddell was looking for was a policy statement to that effect and then the details can be worked out with the SRU team.20:12
cjwatsonSo that's my personal position.  I think it's backed by precedent but it would be nice to know if other TB members could get behind that.20:13
* ScottK looks around.20:14
* kees nods20:16
cjwatsonI'd whack pitti if I could see him ...20:16
stgrabersorry, wifi problems, reading scrolback20:18
cjwatsonHow about I write this up by mail and people can tear it apart if they disagree?20:21
ScottKSounds good to me.20:21
cjwatsonI'd in general like TB decisions to be consistent with previous ones unless there's a compelling reason not to :-)20:21
stgraberso as I just told cjwatson in person, I'd be happy to make the MAAS exception more of a general case and allowing that kind of things as SRU20:21
cjwatsonI'm wary of a degree of floodgate-opening20:22
cjwatsonBut, well, we've still only been forced to do this in a pretty small minority of cases20:22
stgraberthe SRU team would still have the go/no-go on that and I expect them to ask for a very detailed list of problems and explenation as to why the changes couldn't be cherry-picked20:23
ScottKAs I said when I applied for the clamav update exception, there are some upstreams you give an exception to because they are so sane about their maintenance practices.  Sometimes it ends up being the opposite.20:24
cjwatsonHeh, yeah.20:25
cjwatsonOK, I think we've exhausted this for now20:25
cjwatson#topic AOB20:25
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
cjwatsonanyone?  anyone?  Bueller?20:27
keesnothing from me20:27
cjwatsonOK, thanks all20:27
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Mon Apr 29 20:27:51 2013 UTC.20:27
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-04-29-20.03.moin.txt20:27
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-04-29-20.03.html20:27
keesthanks cjwatson!20:27
cjwatsonI'll sort out minutes and that response as sprint time permits20:28
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