[09:14] <bluesabre> knome, what are some things (documented or not) that we want to see in the saucy cycle?
[09:16] <bluesabre> catfish is more or less in maintenance mode now, I can't add more features until python-gobject gets more API calls
[09:17] <bluesabre> I'll be working on getting menulibre to be a full-fledged replacement for alacarte
[09:17] <bluesabre> and parole will continue to get updates
[09:18] <bluesabre> are we still interested in something like this?  https://launchpad.net/xfce4-keyboard-overlay
[09:19] <ochosi> bluesabre: i am
[09:20] <bluesabre> :D
[09:21] <ochosi> question is whether we should try to upstream that to xfce
[09:21] <ochosi> make it an extension of either notifyd or settingsd
[09:21] <ochosi> (probably best to talk to e.g. jeromeg)
[09:22] <bluesabre> true
[09:22] <bluesabre> I'm going to try to redo it in vala again
[09:22] <bluesabre> or maybe just C
[09:24] <ochosi> yeah, i guess that'd be best
[09:25] <bluesabre> the color feels a little old-greybird now: http://imagebin.org/256272
[09:27] <lderan> ooo that would be cool
[09:29] <bluesabre> ochosi, do you remember where the wiki page is/was for this?
[09:30] <ochosi> bluesabre: wait, i thought it's semi-transparent?
[09:30] <bluesabre> it is
[09:30] <bluesabre> you can kinda see the background through it
[09:30] <ochosi> oh
[09:31] <bluesabre> a different, more black base color would help
[09:31] <ochosi> humm
[09:31] <ochosi> then it's not dark enough
[09:31] <ochosi> i'd suggest at least 0.7 as opacity
[09:31] <ochosi> here's the wiki-page btw: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/KeyboardShortcutsOverlay
[09:31] <knome> bluesabre, have you seen skellat's blueprints?
[09:31] <bluesabre> I think so
[09:31] <ochosi> bluesabre: what it needs imo is a bit more padding at the borders
[09:32] <knome> bluesabre, add anything you want to discuss there :)
[09:33] <bluesabre> not sure if I have anything to add to those yet
[09:33] <bluesabre> I'm basically throwing my thoughts onto this channel so people can give me an idea of what to suggest
[09:33] <bluesabre> :D
[09:35] <ochosi> hm, i think the question is in how far e.g. parole and keyboard-shortcuts-overlay are xubuntu-specific
[09:35] <ochosi> we can decide whether we want to make them xubuntu-driven, but to me they seem to be xfce projects rather
[09:36] <ochosi> (in fact they are xubuntu-driven to some extent ofc)
[09:36] <bluesabre> if we're the only developers, they are xubuntu-driven xfce projects
[09:37] <bluesabre> :)
[09:37] <ochosi> yeah, i guess that was my point
[09:37] <ochosi> so it's kinda up to us to decide where to discuss them
[09:37] <knome> well yes, as the SD says, we strive to work upstream
[09:37] <knome> sure
[09:38] <knome> it's ok to discuss them in the xubuntu blueprints, especially if you want feedback, but not necessary
[09:39] <knome> (that was mostly about parole)
[09:39] <knome> otoh keyboard shortuts are something that might be better discussed inside xubuntu first
[09:39] <knome> there might be the argument that we should stick close to upstream with those as well
[09:40] <ochosi> are you referring to default shortcuts?
[09:40] <knome> there might be the argument that we should stick close to upstream with those as wellyes
[09:40] <knome> oops. :)
[09:40] <ochosi> heh
[09:40] <knome> yes
[09:40] <knome> oh, -overlay
[09:40] <knome> well, same with that really
[09:40] <ochosi> right, well we weren't talking about that, we were only talking bout the overlay
[09:40] <knome> we should do that first with xubuntu (especially if upstream isn't sure if they want it, or don't want to use time in that)
[09:41] <ochosi> yeah, that's why i meant, for us it's mostly: where do we _want_ to discuss this
[09:41] <knome> with parole it's more clear that improvements are welcome
[09:41] <knome> (to upstream directly)
[09:41] <knome> yup, sure
[09:41] <ochosi> yeah, i guess with the -overlay the question is whether we even want it in general in xubuntu
[09:41] <ochosi> i personally think it's a nice small improvement, but not everyone might see it that way
[09:42] <knome> of course. but then again somebody might raise the question if xfce wants it in general ;)
[09:42] <knome> ...and then we have the question if it then becomes essentially a shimmer project
[09:42] <ochosi> then we can make it a xubuntu project
[09:43] <ochosi> imo if xubuntu doesn't ship it by default, it doesn't make much sense developing it
[09:43] <bluesabre> yup
[09:43] <ochosi> it's one of those things that should be "under the hood"
[09:43] <knome> sure. but you saying that makes it a xubuntu project definitely.
[09:43] <knome> no reason/argument to not discuss it inside xubuntu
[09:43] <ochosi> if you have to install an extra package by hand, then it's just ridiculous
[09:43] <ochosi> yeah sure
[09:43] <ochosi> it is then _at least_ a xubuntu project
[09:43] <knome> i agree, one wouldn't (want to) install that package manually
[09:44] <ochosi> and then we can try to upstream it (cause it makes more sense in general)
[09:44] <knome> of course
[09:44] <ochosi> or maybe even try to upstream it in the first place
[09:44] <ochosi> (after we've decided whether we want it in xubuntu, i mean)
[09:44] <ochosi> bluesabre: long speech, short meaning: please add "do we want the overlay in xubuntu?" to the blueprint ;)
[09:45] <knome> but since it's definitely a xubuntu project, and there's no information on upstream's opinion yet, i think it would make most sense if it was considered a xubuntu project and thoroughly discussed inside xubuntu
[09:45] <knome> ...until upstream decides they want it for good
[09:45] <bluesabre> make sense to me
[09:46] <ochosi> yup, sounds good
[09:49] <knome> i would consider that a standard procedure for anything that's not clearly adopted by upstream
[09:50] <knome> (maximum certainty that things roll forward, minimal maintenance work for xubuntu)
[09:53] <bluesabre> less fun for developers when we have to rebase all of our bzr commits to git
[09:53] <bluesabre> :D
[09:53] <knome> once.
[09:53] <knome> and, tbh
[09:53] <knome> being a xubuntu project doesn't mean it has to be in bzr/lp
[09:54] <knome> i know that's generally suggested, but i'm not going to enforce
[09:54] <bluesabre> personally I prefer bzr at this point
[09:54] <bluesabre> I used to be a mercurial fanboy
[09:55] <bluesabre> still not sure why I liked it
[09:55] <knome> hg isn't bad
[09:55] <knome> i don't think they have much differences to my use
[09:55] <knome> Unit193, http://xubuntu.org/news/booting-the-xubuntu-usb-image-from-a-cd/
[09:58] <bluesabre> knome, what format were we thinking about converting the xubuntu help to?
[09:58] <knome> i can't remember the suggested one
[09:58] <knome> it only popped up quickly since we had no time to do that anyway
[09:58] <bluesabre> mallard uses yelp
[09:59] <bluesabre> which is what the standard ubuntu help uses, as well as gedit/menulibre/ and probably other gtk apps
[09:59] <lderan> aye hg isn't bad
[09:59] <bluesabre> :D
[10:00] <knome> bluesabre, if that means we can have translations... i suppose that's fine.
[10:00] <knome> i just hope it's not too much work to migrate
[10:00] <bluesabre> I might experiment with that in the next few days
[10:00] <bluesabre> I want to get a head start
[10:00] <bluesabre> since we always run out of time
[10:00] <knome> that would be cool
[10:01] <knome> want to add that to the blueprints?
[10:01] <bluesabre> not sure which one
[10:01] <knome> dunno. dev?
[10:01] <bluesabre> sure
[10:05] <smartboyhw> knome: Hmm amjjawad changed his project to "Start Ubuntu" now. What do you think?
[10:06] <knome> smartboyhw, it's better, but i would still expect a small group review and build the idea until it's easy for others to jump in and start doing "real" things (eg. not brainstorming)
[10:07] <knome> brainstorming is fine, but if you have 20 people doing that, you'll never get to agree on anything
[14:15] <Unit193> knome: Thanks.
[14:16] <knome> np
[15:37] <smartboyhw> knome: I like that mail:)
[15:38] <knome> good
[15:39] <smartboyhw> knome: Noskcaj received his Ubuntu membership BTW:)
[15:39] <knome> i heard
[15:39] <knome> (and congratulated)
[20:47] <Unit193> So we really need 3 hours to talk about Xubuntu?
[20:50] <Noskcaj> Unit193, if it's that long, i might be there for part of it
[20:51] <skellat> Unit193: Considering the pacing of how panels went at the last vUDS, we might actually cover everything on the three separate blueprints.  On the old one...we'd get through maybe the first two topics
[20:52] <knome> better schedule too much than too little
[20:54] <Unit193> knome: And if you don't mind, still planning on doing some sort of team audio/video session?
[20:57] <knome> yes, i was just thinking about it...
[20:58] <knome> i would prefer anything else than G+
[20:58] <knome> even skype is okay, because i have a skype account but not G+
[20:59] <Noskcaj> knome, if you have a gmail email, you have G+
[20:59] <knome> Noskcaj, no, you're wrong. i have google emails, but i have not signed to G+, thus i don't have a G+ account.
[20:59] <knome> Noskcaj, or in other words, good luck finding me on G+
[21:00] <Noskcaj> knome, ok. making an account takes about a minute though
[21:00] <knome> Noskcaj, yes, i know. but i don't want to.
[21:00] <Noskcaj> i'm not sure why i care so much, i'm not going to be able to make it anyway
[21:01] <skellat> Noskcaj: We don't even have time slots for the blueprints yet.  No schedule has been laid out yet.  If we used Jitsi for video conferencing, we could operate on a different schedule from vUDS if we really wanted to.
[21:02] <Noskcaj> skellat, ok. someone let me know if it's between 2000 and 2200
[21:02] <skellat> Your local time or UTC?
[21:02] <Noskcaj> UTC
[21:02] <Noskcaj> that's the only time everyone else seems to be on
[21:03] <skellat> Check summit.ubuntu.com to see what the scheduler is running on
[21:03] <knome> skellat, scheduling parallel to vUDS can prove very beneficial, but i don't see any reason why we should at any cost try to fit our sessions "in" vUDS
[21:04] <skellat> I know
[21:04] <knome> so yes, let's definitely schedule things when and how we like
[21:04] <skellat> The vUDS day ends at 2000 UTC
[21:05] <Noskcaj> skellat, i noticed, so no UDS for me
[21:06] <skellat> 2000 UTC would be 4 PM local time for me in Ashtabula
[21:06] <knome> a video/audio conference at that time might prove semi-hard for me at that time, but is doable
[21:07] <knome> (that's 11pm here, and wife has morning shifts on those days)
[21:07] <skellat> I have no problem going sidebar to vUDS to use what tech we prefer to use.  As long as we make records of what we discuss and it becomes available we're fine.
[21:07] <knome> naturally
[21:08] <skellat> Timeanddate.com has a meeting planner type tool for picking blocks
[21:08] <knome> ideal days for me would be 10 and 11 actually
[21:08] <knome> but meh, pleia2 isn't even back then
[21:09] <skellat> The tool is here: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html
[21:09] <knome> let's just pick a bad day for me and good for others. i'll adapt.
[21:09] <knome> anything starting pre-23UTC is fine by me.
[21:09] <knome> or after 9UTC too.
[21:10] <knome> and i can adapt.
[21:10] <knome> based on the few polls we had, 15UTC+ seems to be good for most of us on weekdays
[21:12] <Noskcaj> 2000-2200 and 0600-0900 for me
[21:13] <knome> we could schedule at least one session around the 20-22 timeslot
[21:21] <skellat> knome: When does pleia2 get back?  Do we want to wait for her?
[21:22] <knome> she's back on 13th or so, and yes, i'd really love her to be able to join us
[21:22] <knome> so back for vUDS anyway
[21:24] <Unit193> s/to.*// :---D
[21:25] <knome> humm
[21:25] <knome> i do love pleia2!
[21:26]  * skellat notes https://launchpad.net/sprints/xubuntusaucy is available to group the blueprints separate from vUDS if we do our own "vUDS After Hours" thing each day in the 2000-2200 UTC time slot
[21:27] <Unit193> !find jitsi | skellat
[21:27] <knome> oh cool.
[21:27] <knome> skellat, feel free to set xubuntu-team as the driver
[21:27] <skellat> Unit193: Yeah, they're building their own nightly debs and haven't gotten into archives yet
[21:28] <knome> skellat, thanks :)
[21:29] <skellat> knome: With that sprint scheduled we can do our own thing after vUDS is done for the day too
[21:29] <knome> i wonder if we can move the existing blueprints
[21:29] <skellat> I'm gonna try to do that
[21:30] <knome> skellat, i suppose you still have more permissions than me on the sprint. would you please add me as a driver well? :)
[21:30] <knome> +sd
[21:30] <knome> -sd+as
[21:31] <skellat> Hunh.  That's not good.  Apparently I can add drivers infinitely.
[21:31] <skellat> :-)
[21:31] <knome> hehe
[21:32] <skellat> Or not
[21:32] <knome> hmm.
[21:32] <skellat> Apparently the person who set up the Sprint and one delegate can be drivers
[21:33] <knome> yeah. and apparently only you can control the sprint
[21:33] <knome> (i don't see any more things i can do there)
[21:33] <skellat> :-(
[21:33] <skellat> Oh well, the big part is that the blueprints are now separate from vUDS-1305
[21:34] <skellat> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/xubuntusaucy/+specs
[21:34] <knome> though they are still "proposed" to uds-1305
[21:34] <knome> and apparently, one can't "unpropose"
[21:34] <knome> i'm thinking we might be overthinking this.
[21:35] <skellat> That part will just fall off
[21:35] <skellat> They've been proposed to uds-1305 for a while and nobody's touched them
[21:35] <knome> having an own LP sprint doesn't seem to offer us anything new
[21:35] <knome> i'm sure we can get them approved by poking correct people
[21:36] <knome> i also imagine community is a better track for them, or as skaet hoped in UDS-R, we should have a flavors track, or even one track per flavor...
[21:36] <knome> but seriously, all this might be overkill. including our own sprint :)
[21:36] <skellat> They're running tight on overhead for keeping tracks straight
[21:36] <skellat> I know
[21:37] <skellat> But, 3 nights, 3 separate Xubuntu discussions at a leisurely pace...we can do that
[21:37] <knome> yep
[21:37] <skellat> Plus we get the added benefit of keeping Noskcaj in the loop
[21:37] <Noskcaj> yay!
[21:37] <knome> and others
[21:38] <scottbomb> Question about testing... about when are testers needed for dailies now that you guys are starting on the new release (saucy)?
[21:38] <knome> i'm fine with anything, as long as it's not G+ ;)
[21:38] <knome> first alpha is June 20
[21:39] <Noskcaj> scottbomb, any testing from this point on is helpful
[21:39] <knome> and feature definition freeze May 30
[21:39] <scottbomb> ok thanks
[21:39] <knome> i would imagine we will start dropping actual new things to xubuntu after that
[21:40] <knome> but of course, there's the debian syncing done and all that
[21:40] <Noskcaj> and existing bugs
[21:40] <Unit193> I'm wondering if we can use XMPP generally, then people can use several different clients.
[21:40] <Noskcaj> scottbomb, if you run an iso test, please change your timezone to sydney temporarily, it seems to point to the wrong place
[21:41] <scottbomb> interesting, will do
[21:41] <skellat> Unit193: XMPP can carry audio 
[21:41] <Noskcaj> bug 1172015
[21:41] <Unit193> Indeed, that's what I'm referring to.
[21:41] <knome> Unit193, we have more than a week to set up anything we want!
[21:42] <Unit193> Do either of you have an XMPP client and account somewhere?  Gmail should work.
[21:42] <Unit193> (And willing to test, of course.)
[21:42] <knome> i can test on sunday
[21:44] <skellat> I actually have XMPP accounts listed on my LP profile
[21:46] <skellat> They're listed under Jabber, though
[21:48] <skellat> There we go, I'm logged back in to my alpacaherder@jabber.org XMPP account
[21:52] <Unit193> Don't think that worked.
[21:52] <skellat> Pidgin said I was pushing something downstream
[21:52] <skellat> sflphone is another client supposedly useful in such cases
[21:53] <skellat> s/sflphone/ekiga/
[22:10] <bluesabre> somebody should log a bug for knome avoiding G+
[22:10] <knome> hah
[22:10]  * knome will mark wontfix
[22:10] <knome> and veto disagreeing voices
[22:10] <bluesabre> :D
[22:12] <lderan> :P
[22:13] <Unit193> knome: Understandable, I avoid GitHub.
[22:14] <lderan> can't blame you for doing that
[22:14] <bluesabre> but we can blame him for lots of other things
[22:14] <bluesabre> :D
[22:14]  * Unit193 is on LP and bitbucket, though he hardly uses the second.
[22:14] <lderan> :D
[22:16] <Unit193> (Bitbucket so I have a backup {have selfhosted git} for private projects.)
[22:18] <bluesabre> BitBucket was for when I was addicted to mercurial and couldn't figure out bzr
[22:18] <bluesabre> those were the days
[22:19] <Unit193> LP doesn't have private repos, that you don't have to buy.  (Also, git is faster.)
[22:19] <knome> bluesabre, oops: http://shimmerproject.org/about/
[22:20] <bluesabre> oh crap, now I'm important
[22:20] <knome> i'll make sure you get an account on the new site, but until that, if you want changes to your intro text, poke me.
[22:22] <bluesabre> sure thing
[22:49] <lderan> night all