[00:00] <zequence> DarkEra2: I'll have to leave you now, but once you have the code of conduct signed, next time, I'll show you the sources involved in the desktop stuff, and you can start working on it
[00:00] <DarkEra2> zequence, ok cool :)
[00:00] <zequence> DarkEra2: Probably the first thing you want to learn is how to prepare a package for PPA. It's not difficult (when you know it)
[00:01] <zequence> Editing the sources is also very simple
[00:01] <DarkEra2> we'll get there for sure, it takes some time and patience
[00:01] <zequence> DarkEra2: Good night. See you tomorrow
[00:01] <DarkEra2> good night zequence and see you later
[00:02] <DarkEra2> and thanks for all the help
[00:34] <madeinkobaia> Bye all, see you zequence.
[02:09] <smartboyhw> !testers-ubuntustudio-devel is <reply> That item needs testing! zequence, len-1304, Len-nb, smartboyhw, DarkEra please do some testing!
[02:10] <smartboyhw> Damn wrong
[02:10] <smartboyhw> !testers-#ubuntustudio-devel is <reply> That item needs testing! zequence, len-1304, Len-nb, smartboyhw, DarkEra please do some testing!
[02:14] <smartboyhw> Better
[05:03] <smartboyhw> !ubuntustudio
[05:04] <smartboyhw> Good:)
[05:08] <smartboyhw> !contribute
[05:08] <smartboyhw> Meh, we should update the links
[05:08] <smartboyhw> With thr Studio ones
[05:33] <Len-nb> smartboyhw, need to do the ones in #ubuntustudio too... maybe first
[05:34]  * Len-nb is off to bed
[05:37] <smartboyhw> Len-nb sure
[08:52] <smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra:)
[08:53] <DarkEra> good morning smartboyhw :)
[09:13] <DarkEra> i believe everything is set up, even CoC is signed
[09:23] <smartboyhw> DarkEra: gd
[10:19] <zequence> DarkEra: Create a directory for source repositories. Something like ~/repos
[10:20] <zequence> DarkEra: Then to beging with, you could check out the source for ubuntustudio-meta and the ubuntustudio seeds
[10:20] <zequence> You'll also need the Ubuntu Gnome seeds to get the list of dependencies for the Gnome desktop
[10:20] <zequence> So, in repos, do: apt-get source ubuntustudio-meta
[10:21] <zequence> DarkEra: Then, cd into ubuntustudio-meta* and check out debian/control
[10:21] <zequence> Later, you'll need to create an entry for ubuntustudio-gnome-desktop
[10:21] <smartboyhw> zequence: I think I have falktx's work to copy for KDE:P
[10:22] <zequence> smartboyhw: That's probably not a good idea
[10:22] <zequence> smartboyhw: He does custom work, which is not avilable in our repo
[10:22] <zequence> smartboyhw: The idea is we do as little maintanence as needed
[10:22] <zequence> smartboyhw: That is why basing on Kubuntu is a better choice
[10:23] <smartboyhw> zequence: OK then
[10:23] <smartboyhw> I mean I have the DE to copy
[10:23] <zequence> All though, I need to have a closer look at these desktop metas to decide for myself, what is actually important and not
[10:23] <smartboyhw> Not the apps, IIRC
[10:23] <zequence> smartboyhw: What do you mean? Artwork, and so on?
[10:24] <smartboyhw> zequence: Basic DE structure only
[10:25] <zequence> DarkEra: Seeds for Ubuntu Studio https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
[10:25] <zequence> DarkEra: DarkEra Seeds for Ubuntu Gnome https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-gnome-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-gnome.saucy
[10:25] <zequence> DarkEra: To get the Ubuntu Studio seeds: bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
[10:25] <smartboyhw> zequence:We ARE still using our own artwork right?
[10:25] <zequence> DarkEra: To get the Ubuntu Gnome seeds bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-gnome-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-gnome.saucy
[10:25] <zequence> smartboyhw: Of course. What are you talking about?
[10:26] <smartboyhw> zequence: Forget it.
[10:26] <smartboyhw> LOL
[10:26] <zequence> smartboyhw: I suggested to falktx_ that he could work on a KDE version for Ubuntu Studio, but he was not interested.
[10:27] <DarkEra> zequence, sorry was away from keyboard. Seems like Mrs.'s wants to go outside for a walk so i'll start working on that later this afternoon buddy.
[10:27] <smartboyhw> zequence: Heh
[10:27] <falktx_> zequence: hmm, it was not that
[10:27] <zequence> DarkEra: Yeah, I won't have much time today until the evening myself. Just check back into the logs later
[10:27] <falktx_> zequence: I am interested on a KDE US version, but it's not possible
[10:27] <falktx_> because for a proper KDE dedicated to audio, KDE needs to be patched
[10:27] <falktx_> or the packaging modified
[10:28] <falktx_> modifications that I'm sure Kubuntu won't like
[10:28] <smartboyhw> falktx_: Oh.
[10:28] <zequence> falktx_: I forget what it was, but did this have something to do with pulseaudio?
[10:28] <falktx_> I'm the opinion that you either do something right, or there's no point on doing it
[10:28] <falktx_> zequence: yes, pulseaudio mostly
[10:28] <DarkEra> zequence, sure thing. Same here, in the evening or  night is better when everyone is asleep and i have my piece & quiet :)
[10:29] <zequence> falktx_: If you are right, you should be able to prove it by argumentation, in which case no one could prove you wrong
[10:29] <zequence> falktx_: And, that would mean your suggestion would be wanted
[10:30] <falktx_> you're free to ask kubuntu guys if it's ok to remove pulseaudio support from their packages
[10:30] <falktx_> I'd love to know what they answer to that...
[10:30] <zequence> falktx_: So, in your mind, there is no place for pulseaudio support at all?
[10:30] <falktx_> there is, but one that doesn't block it from non-usage
[10:31] <smartboyhw> zequence: I thought pulseaudio was the default in Kubuntu
[10:31] <falktx_> ie, qtmobility package needs pulseaudio to work right now
[10:31] <falktx_> but it could be made to work with ALSA
[10:31] <falktx_> kmix needs pulseaudio to work, but it could be made to work with alsa too
[10:31] <zequence> falktx_: Can't it be made to work with both? If PA is not present, then..?
[10:31] <falktx_> and several packages are like that
[10:31] <falktx_> zequence: nope, if PA is not present, software crashes or stops working
[10:32] <zequence> falktx_: What I mean is, can't someone code it that way
[10:32] <zequence> falktx_: I don't see why anyone would object to that
[10:32] <falktx_> I don't see why either
[10:32] <falktx_> but it has been done that way, not sure why...
[10:32] <zequence> falktx_: Maybe you could do that?
[10:32] <smartboyhw> falktx_: PA is in Kubuntu I think
[10:33] <falktx_> it's not a easy job, and would take quite some time
[10:33] <zequence> smartboyhw: I forgot what the problem was. It has to do with PA being forced onto KDE, not that it is used as default for Kubuntu
[10:33] <falktx_> for me, my quick solution is to remove pulseaudio support and go with just alsa
[10:34] <zequence> falktx_: Someone would need to at least suggest a policy for that. Otherwise, noone will care
[10:34] <falktx_> zequence: kde is focused on pulseaudio, and some things don't work ok without it
[10:34] <falktx_> developers don't really care afaik
[10:34] <smartboyhw> zequence: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/releases/raring/release/kubuntu-13.04-desktop-amd64.manifest
[10:34] <DarkEra> wasn't phonon the default in kde?
[10:34] <falktx_> too many specs already, I think most kde decided to go with pulse
[10:34] <smartboyhw> PA is in there
[10:35] <DarkEra> kinda sucked when they removed it
[10:35] <DarkEra> ok guys, chat ya all later again. Seems i'm forced outside :D
[10:36] <zequence> DarkEra: See you later
[10:36] <zequence> I'll need to go too
[10:36] <DarkEra> o/
[10:37] <zequence> falktx_: I'll make a note of the sound server problem. One of my goals for 14.04 is to be able to set the system to pure jack usage, for the audio enthusiast.
[10:37] <zequence> As a settable option. Not default
[10:37] <falktx_> zequence: sounds cool
[10:37] <falktx_> zequence: I already have the Cadence 0.8 version released, I'm just writing some docs to go with the release announcement
[10:37] <smartboyhw> zequence: falktx_: You mean we should rm PA from US KDE seeds
[10:38] <falktx_> smartboyhw: no, we should patch KDE packaging and software
[10:38] <falktx_> smartboyhw: kmix for example, it should *always* use the ALSA mixer backend, and never the pulseaudio one
[10:39] <falktx_> when you have JACK running, a pulseaudio mixer is useless
[10:39] <smartboyhw> falktx_: Heh. Let me ask the people if it is possible. (I am a *new* Kubuntu Member after all)
[10:39] <falktx_> you can't control the main volume, etc etc
[10:39] <falktx_> smartboyhw: ah, cool. I forgot that
[10:40] <falktx_> I think this is one of the many reasons Ubuntu should have some per-variant repos
[10:40] <falktx_> so that for example US could change specific apps to use JACK instead of ALSA or Pulse
[10:40] <smartboyhw> falktx_: Heh I am not supposing people to remember
[10:41] <zequence> I added a workitem for it in blueprints https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-s-desktop-kde
[10:42] <zequence> Would be good to get a good overview of the problem and also check with the Kubuntu devs 
[10:42] <smartboyhw> zequence: I saw (via e-mail)
[10:42] <falktx_> zequence: note that very soon I'll be super busy, now that I have my projects mostly done I'm looking for a real job...
[10:42] <smartboyhw> zequence: You want to hope into #kubuntu-devel with me?
[10:42]  * falktx_ wishes writing FLOSS apps could be a full-time job
[10:43] <smartboyhw> falktx_: Good luck
[10:48]  * zequence wishes there were plenty of FLOSS devs, so that he could focus on making music
[10:48] <smartboyhw> zequence: Heh
[11:30] <smartboyhw_> Hello madeinkobaia:)
[11:32] <madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw_ : )
[11:32] <madeinkobaia> How are you ? :)
[11:34] <smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia: Great!
[11:36] <madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_ : : )
[11:41] <smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia and zequence: Someone posted a new wallpaper for Ubuntu Studio!
[11:42] <smartboyhw_> Meh, we can include many wallpapers in 13.10
[11:47] <madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_ : For sure, if its quality enough, we could add it. Where is this wallpaper visible ?
[11:48] <smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia: http://tmt78.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntustudio-wallpaper-358922939
[11:48] <smartboyhw_> You don't subscribe to our G+ community?
[11:52] <madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_: For sure, I even did the banner :P But I don't see nothing related to that...
[11:52] <madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_: Otherwise, thats a very good wp.
[11:53] <zequence> Nice WP in deed. Maybe something for the wallpaper collection for 13.10?
[11:55] <madeinkobaia> zequence, smartboyhw_ : My opinion is favorable ! :D
[11:56] <madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_: Where did you saw the information about this wp ? I don't find nothing : (
[11:57] <smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia: Ubuntu Studio G+ Community
[11:58] <madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_: Ops, sorry I get it now :)
[12:01] <madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_ : Ok, my notifications was desactivated for the community.
[12:24] <smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Heh
[14:05] <len-1304> zequence, smartboyhw, Re. DE variants and PA etc. While there is a place for not having PA running, in general the desktop experience needs it.
[14:06] <len-1304> rather than fix all the mixers, it may be better to just not ship them.
[14:06] <smartboyhw> len-1304, ok
[14:07] <len-1304> My thought is that we have a mixer that is generic.
[14:08] <len-1304> Most of the mixers default to PA right now, but some of them can be forced to deal with HW from the commandline.
[14:10] <len-1304> I would suggest that trying to make everything desktop work with jack or ALSA would be a much bigger pain than dealing with PA properly.
[14:10] <len-1304> The audio community has a historical view where PA was bad 3 years ago and so it must still be bad.
[14:12] <len-1304> PA is still not perfect, but it is very usable from 13.04 and things that would make it better are on the list with the PA devs when they have time.
[14:14] <len-1304> USing ALSA as the desktop backend IMO would be a worse problem than PA because 50% or more of the good audio IFs are non-ALSA FIRWIRE devices.
[14:17] <len-1304> I would suggest that being able to disable the PA-jack bridge on the fly would do as much as shutting down PA would do.
[14:17] <len-1304> This is also easier to do.
[14:20] <len-1304> Also, if PA is used at all, pavucontrol still needs to be around.
[16:38] <holstein> !minimal
[17:32] <holstein> !register
[19:13] <zequence> len-1304: I think the problem you see is not the same as falktx described on KDE, where many applications were forced to use PA over alsa, and using no PA would make them crash or not work at all (that is the picture I got from falktx)
[19:13] <zequence> But, sure, the mixer problem is an interesing one
[19:13] <len-1304> zequence, desktop audio is PA
[19:13] <len-1304> there is really no getting around that
[19:14] <len-1304> Either people want desktop audio or they don't
[19:14] <len-1304> Re doing every piece of desktop SW to not use PA doesn't make sense
[19:14] <zequence> len-1304: I still think we are talking about two different subjects
[19:15] <len-1304> How so? The topic at the time was DEs
[19:17] <zequence> len-1304: PA is one audio server system. jack is another, and also ALSA. Making sure there is support for more than one is not a problem for anyone
[19:17] <len-1304> I don't know of any proaudio app that uses PA aside from audacity/LMMS
[19:18] <len-1304> I am not sure ALSA is a server so much as a device IF
[19:19] <zequence> You can run apps using pure ALSA, so it must be
[19:19] <len-1304> That doesn't make it a server.
[19:20] <len-1304> If we want to use Jack as the DE sound server... it needs a layer much like PA.
[19:21] <len-1304> The needs are not the same for the two kinds of apps (pro consumer
[19:21] <zequence> len-1304: Let me ask you. Are you opposing something? What are you arguing for, or agains?
[19:22] <len-1304> The ALSA IF, PA and Jack all fill a roll
[19:23] <len-1304> I am suggesting that when we include other DEs trying to make everything work without PA is a lot of work and probably not worth it.
[19:23] <zequence> It's up to whoever wants to do it. It won't cause a conflict for anyone
[19:23] <len-1304> Both gnome and KDE originally had their own sound server, because ALSA had short comings.
[19:24] <len-1304> Jack does not fill that gap either. PA at least is common to all of them (unity included)
[19:25] <len-1304> If someone wants to do these things fine, but US should not be thinking of them as "must haves"
[19:25] <zequence> We're not abandoning PA in any case
[19:26] <len-1304> Ya, it would break too many things
[19:26] <zequence> The questions was never on the table to begin with either
[19:27] <len-1304> I know there are a number of people who Hate PA, not only because of problems they have had with it in the past, but because they do not like the author
[19:27] <zequence> I don't care about the politics. I only care about making things work, and that you can do what you want to do
[19:27] <len-1304> The way things were phrased made it seem as if it was being said that the only way to include KDE was to redo any audio app that needed PA
[19:28] <zequence> The way it was phrased was that since there seems to be an interest for adding alsa support for some apps, that should be looked into
[19:28] <zequence> Had nothing to do with removing support for PA
[19:28] <len-1304> I would prefer to have a set of audio apps that do not need KDE/gnome/unity/XFCE to work, but still work well with all of them
[19:30] <zequence> Also, US is not one entity. I'm not sure where the lines should be drawn. You need some kind of driving force and vision, and that is something I will try to give during this next year, but I also feel that it's a do-ocracy, where people should feel free to do what they want to do, as long as they aren't breaking stuff for other people
[19:32] <len-1304> I guess I was reading more into lines like this:
 you're free to ask kubuntu guys if it's ok to remove pulseaudio support from their packages
[19:32] <len-1304> Than are meant.
[19:34] <zequence> Well, I was never going to suggest doing that
[19:36] <len-1304> He also meantioned Kmix as an example. I don't know that is a good replacement for pavucontrol. I would much prefer to have a proper ALSA mixer and pavucontrol no matter what DE is installed
[19:37] <len-1304> I guess what I am saying, is that we need to be careful where we put the line as to what is needed in each DE package
[19:37] <zequence> IMO, no existing mixer is a good all round mixer. I'd really like to create one for 14.04
[19:38] <zequence> One to rule them all, so to speak
[19:38] <zequence> One that recognizes what is installed, and/or running
[19:38] <zequence> Users should not need to know what is under the hood. It's a major pain in everything concerning audio
[19:40] <zequence> It might have been better if there was only one audio system, which was flexible enought to suit everyones needs
[19:41] <zequence> The user just wants to start their applications, set levels, and do routing
[19:42] <len-1304> Sounds nice
[19:43] <len-1304> It should not be that hard to at least detect ice1712/echo/rme/FW and start the right mixer for those.
[19:43] <len-1304> QAS is the best of the bunch I have seen so far, but it is not as good as it should be.
[19:44] <zequence> I never considered that approach actually. Just a generic mixer where the controls would change depending on what was running
[19:44] <len-1304> PA tries to do that by controling PA instead of the card
[19:44] <zequence> But, since some cards do benefit from special mixers, it would make sense to add them to the mix
[19:45] <zequence> HW levels are always needed, sure
[19:45] <zequence> And if not all visible, at least accessible from one control interface
[19:46] <len-1304> Yup, and alsamixer while mostly complete is not GUI and not easy to understand.