[06:33] <smartboyhw> zequence: So, what are the results of len-1304's argument? ;P
[07:50] <smartboyhw_> Hmm, I can't seem to find the Ubuntu Studio trademark on patent offices' website
[08:03] <smartboyhw_> And as far as I can tell, project lead changes:
[08:03] <smartboyhw_> Feisty-Interprid: Cory Kontros
[08:18] <smartboyhw_> Meh 
[08:19] <smartboyhw_> zequence… You seriously can't remember when Scott became lead?
[08:20] <smartboyhw_> And BTW, sounds like the team liked a lot of meetings in the old days:O
[10:55] <smartboyhw> Welcome back everyone
[10:56] <falktx> Okaeri!
[10:56]  * falktx is trying to learn japanese
[10:57] <smartboyhw> falktx: lol. sulimase
[10:59] <falktx> watashi wa Filipe desu
[10:59] <zequence> wakarimasen
[11:00] <smartboyhw> zequence: Meh
[11:02] <smartboyhw> zequence: I actually thought of one thing: We don't have enough marketing
[11:13] <zequence> smartboyhw: We don't have enough of a lot of things
[11:13] <zequence> Debian was released today, btw
[11:13] <zequence> Ah, no.Yesterday
[11:15] <smartboyhw> zequence: Yep.
[11:15] <smartboyhw> zequence: I am thinking of it post-14.04
[12:32] <smartboyhw> bye
[13:19] <smartboyhw> zequence: Anything I missed?
[13:27] <zequence> smartboyhw: Get yourself a cheap ARM computer, like Raspberry PI, add a irssi chat client on it, and log in through ssh. It'll log everything, and you'll never miss a thing, or you check the logs online. But, to answer your question, no, you didn't miss anything.
[13:31] <smartboyhw> zequence: Heh
[14:19] <len-1304> smartboyhw, I think we agreed we need a better HW mixer
[14:20] <smartboyhw> len-1304: OK
[14:21] <len-1304> In other words the KDE, Gnome XFCE etc metas should not include the mixers.
[14:21] <len-1304> In fact I guess we already that with xfce
[14:22] <smartboyhw> len-1304: Mmm hmm
[14:25] <len-1304> Even with our xfce DE that we ship now. we don't try to make it a "full featured" Desktop. We don't include an office... even less than xubuntu for example
[14:28] <len-1304> I haven't played with KDE for a long time now. I used to use it back when I was using Slackware though.
[14:29] <len-1304> For me, KDE, Gnome, Unity and even xfce have more than I need in a DE
[14:33] <len-1304> zequence, smartboyhw, I am thinking that our current desktop seed/meta needs to be split into two or made optional when we figure out how to do that with ubiquity
[14:34] <len-1304> That way the installer can have a Ubuntustudio with only one DE and not have xfce
[14:37] <smartboyhw> len-2
[14:37] <smartboyhw> len-1304: Aren't we?
[14:38] <len-1304> on the other hand, if we always include xfce, and it is the best tested. we can always have a user login xfce as a trouble shooting step.
[14:40] <smartboyhw> len-1304: zequence: Maybe we let users choose their DE after the installation. We have Xfce as an backup, and we can tell them to install DEs whatever they want
[14:40] <len-1304> Right now with what we have, that is the only way.
[14:41] <len-1304> We have yet to get to the ubiquity programing :)
[14:42] <len-1304> If we grow our team enough, installing only one DE should not be a problem.
[14:42] <zequence> len-1304: The plan is that if the user has internet during installation he/she will be able to choose between our different desktop metas, and choose not to install our default, which is the one based on XFCE
[14:43] <len-1304> If we keep the DE components we do install, stock, then people can still get help on the DE irc/forum 
[14:43] <smartboyhw> zequence: Heh, then I rather want alternate ISOs. :X-(
[14:44] <len-1304> zequence, in theory we should be able to include them on the ISO.
[14:44] <smartboyhw> len-1304: That might be even bigger than a DVD size
[14:45] <zequence> len-1304: I think size is a problem, if we were to include Unity, Gnome3, XFCE and KDE all on the same ISO
[14:45] <smartboyhw> It would be catastrophic disaster:P
[14:45] <len-1304> We already include many of the KDE and gnome libs, it may be less than we think.
[14:46] <len-1304> It would be worth trying and find out. Remember, we are not trying for full features.
[14:47] <smartboyhw> len-1304: You try:P
[14:47] <len-1304> The metas have to be there first :)
[14:48] <smartboyhw> len-1304: After we created it, yoy try.
[14:48] <smartboyhw> :P
[14:48] <len-1304> first thing after an LTS :)
[14:49] <smartboyhw> len-1304: Cheers
[14:50] <len-1304> We were all surprised at how small the KDE libs were when we added kdenlive.
[14:51] <len-1304> they were too big in terms of trying to keep CD sized, but not once the size limit was removed.
[14:51] <len-1304> however, having said that. There are already people who are less than pleased with the DL time for our current ISO
[14:54] <smartboyhw> len-1304: It is impossible to carry that many applications in a small image…
[14:54] <len-1304> zequence, smartboyhw, this is new ground for us (or maybe anyone), starting with a DL at install time makes the most sense.
[14:55] <zequence> The default DE will continue to be XFCE until we decide otherwise
[14:55] <zequence> So, the ISO will have it for the live session
[14:56] <len-1304> Yup, I fugred that
[14:56] <smartboyhw> len-1304: I would want netboot ISOs then…
[14:56] <len-1304> *figured
[14:56] <len-1304> smartboyhw, they are always available.
[14:57] <smartboyhw> len-1304: For default Studio images…
[14:57] <smartboyhw> LOL
[14:58] <zequence> the netinstall works for any flavor
[14:58] <zequence> We don't need our own
[14:58] <smartboyhw> But we need live
[14:58] <smartboyhw> And we need Xfce
[14:58] <smartboyhw> Grre
[14:59]  * smartboyhw almost had the mind to stop supporting other DEs at all
[14:59] <len-1304> The kubuntu ISO right now is still less than 1G. from xubuntu experience that has close to 500M of stuff we already include. Also it would imagine it includes KDE apps we don't need as well.
[14:59] <len-1304> I would assume it incldes the KDE office apps for example
[15:00] <smartboyhw> len-1304 yep
[15:01] <smartboyhw> len-1304: But we will need to test for every release if it works
[15:01]  * smartboyhw hasn't even started on upgrades yet
[15:02] <len-1304> That was my comment earlier about growing the team and keeping DE apps stock.
[15:02] <smartboyhw> len-1304: I'm not sure if I can test any image if it has so many DEs in images
[15:02] <smartboyhw> The download time will be huge
[15:02] <len-1304> The metas would be included on the ISO but not istalled
[15:03] <len-1304> zsync is your friend.
[15:03] <smartboyhw> len-1304:  I tend to forget where I put the jmage
[15:04] <smartboyhw> lol
[15:04] <smartboyhw> len-1304: Is that possible?
[15:04] <smartboyhw> I'm not sure if we can keep packages without installing it in our livefs
[15:05] <zequence> adding Kubuntu is about 763 MB when installed. 196MB of archives. It includes Libre Office. So, on the ISO, it might actually be pretty small after all
[15:05] <len-1304> Less work to find it than DL load a new one. I have mine on a drive I don't mess with but can mount. I have a script that does the zsync
[15:06] <len-1304> ubiquity is supposed to be able to install things on the ISO but not part of the live session.
[15:06] <zequence> It's quite possible to have packages on an ISO that you don't install
[15:06] <smartboyhw> Anywaays, we need to create it out first
[15:06] <smartboyhw> metas
[15:07] <len-1304> Gnome should be smaller
[15:07] <zequence> Gnome and Unity both are a little bit less
[15:07] <len-1304> gnome and unity share libs as well
[15:07] <zequence> 600+ MB when installed
[15:07] <smartboyhw> archive?
[15:07] <zequence> Yes, Unity is based on Gnome after all
[15:08] <len-1304> They also use some of the libs xfce uses... I think
[15:08] <zequence> If we are lucky, adding all the DEs will be something like 500MB on the ISO
[15:08] <zequence> xfce uses a bunch of gnome stuff too, yes
[15:09] <zequence> but, there are still major differences
[15:09] <len-1304> Our apps do too.
[15:09] <len-1304> Yup
[15:33] <smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra
[15:33] <DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
[15:46]  * len-1304 realizes he will have to install all 4 DEs on his machine to make the menus work :P
[15:54] <DarkEra> heya len-1304 
[15:54] <zequence> There may be a problem with wine, when upgrading from 12.04 to 13.04
[15:54] <zequence> sorry, 12.10 -> 13.04
[15:56] <DarkEra> hi zequence 
[15:56] <zequence> DarkEra: Hi
[16:22] <DarkEra> zequence, sorry but i couldn't get much done yesterday. But so far i set up a repo folder in home and downloaded the ubuntustudio-meta package in there last night. At the moment i'm a bit busy but should have time later this evening so we can continue with the rest.
[16:27] <zequence> DarkEra: to begin with, I'd just like for you to see what the sources are, which files are going to be edited
[16:27] <zequence> DarkEra: Not a big deal
[16:30] <zequence> DarkEra: When you get there, get the seed sources for ubuntustudio and ubuntu gnome
[16:31] <zequence> DarkEra: bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
[16:31] <zequence> bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-gnome-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-gnome.saucy
[16:39] <Len-nb> zequence, is gmidimonitor supposed to be added to the seeds as well as the menu?
[16:52] <zequence> Len-nb: Yes, we'll need to add it to the midi utilities menu
[16:54] <Len-nb> zequence, I am pretty much finished adding it to the menu, I can drop it in the seeds as well.
[20:39] <madeinkobaia> Hi, for those who are on board : )
[20:57] <DarkEra> hi madeinkobaia 
[20:57] <madeinkobaia> Hi darkera, how are you buddy ?
[20:58] <DarkEra> madeinkobaia, tired but doing fine. How are you?
[20:59] <DarkEra> i'll be back later though, 30 minutes to a hour or so
[21:00] <DarkEra> just checked in to see if someone highlighted me :)
[21:01] <madeinkobaia> Ok, see you darkera : )
[21:01] <DarkEra> ;)
[21:03] <madeinkobaia> ^^
[22:08] <DarkEra> there goes my dev night i planned... sigh
[22:15] <Len-nb> zequence, holstein, others who more audio than other stuff :) Should we try to include something better than the xfce alsa mixer?
[22:15] <Len-nb> should we try to get a good mixer done in time this release?
[22:15] <zequence> DarkEra: Don't worry. There will be plenty of more nights to be obstructed ;)
[22:16] <Len-nb> have any of you tried qasmixer?
[22:16] <Len-nb> is it enough better than the xfce mixer to put it in?
[22:17] <DarkEra> zequence, i know buddy but i really want to get into this. I have a little girl here who woke up and refuses to get back to sleep... lol :)
[22:18] <DarkEra> Len-nb, i never tried it and even never heard of qasmix :)
[22:18] <zequence> Len-nb: I'm not against adding it to the mixer menu anyway
[22:18] <Len-nb> I was thinking to replace the xfce mixer, but if we make the metas optional install this could leave a non audio install with no alsa mixer... though maybe pavucontrol would be ok
[22:19] <Len-nb> zequence, I added it to the menu some time ago, but I could also add it to the seeds
[22:19] <zequence> Len-nb: Yeah, that's what I meant. Meaning, we add it, and it's accessible from the menu
[22:20] <Len-nb> Ok I'm in there anyway, I'll do that.
[22:33] <Len-nb> DarkEra, qasmixer actually. it does what alsamixer does but with a gui
[22:34] <DarkEra> i just noticed i made a typo.. lol. Thanks for the info Len-nb :)
[22:34] <Len-nb> It is more comprehensive than most gui mixers and includes all alsa controls it can find
[22:35] <DarkEra> cool
[22:35] <DarkEra> i was about to google for it
[22:36] <Len-nb> There are three apps qasmixer, qashctl and qasconfig
[22:37] <Len-nb> aside from the mixer there is a control by control app and an alsa config editor
[22:37] <zequence> one problem we still have is that someone should go through the entire workflow, and really get down and dirty with what is avilable, and what we could/should use
[22:44] <Len-nb> ya, but I am not it. My workflow is very simple.... I don't do enough KB stuff (midi) to know that aprt
[22:45] <Len-nb> *part
[23:39] <Len-nb> zequence, have you used kde much? (recently?)
[23:41] <Len-nb> Gnome puts settings as well as system into their control centre. We could easily do that with xfce and perhaps KDE already does that.
[23:45] <holstein> Len-nb: i thought we included pavucontrol?
[23:45] <Len-nb> We do. But it doesn't give a good alsa mixer
[23:46] <holstein> Len-nb: OH.. i see what you mean
[23:46] <Len-nb> holstein, when using jack and setting record levels we need something better
[23:46] <holstein> Len-nb: i have no idea.. i can try something if you want, but i have personally always used alsamixer in the terminal.. 
[23:47] <Len-nb> It would be nice to have a generic mixer that runs a card specific app if needed
[23:47] <holstein> Len-nb: agreed
[23:47] <Len-nb> Such as the Firewire controller or the ice1712 app
[23:49] <Len-nb> holstein, anyway, I have added qasmixer for now for alsa mixers. It is a bit easier to use than alsamixer for any alsa card I have tried it with
[23:53] <zequence> There is a gui based alsamixer in the seeds already, though
[23:53] <zequence> "Audio Mixer"
[23:55] <Len-nb> Thats the xfce one I think
[23:56] <Len-nb> It doesn't seem to handle switches that well
[23:56] <holstein> !info qasmixer
[23:56] <holstein> Len-nb: qas is fine with me
[23:58] <zequence> Len-nb: How do you mean, about switches?
[23:58] <Len-nb> I'm just looking at the two to see if I can explain.
[23:59] <zequence> The only difference I am aware of is that qasmixer has some pulse controls as well
[23:59] <zequence> but, we already have controls for pulse
[23:59] <zequence> the problem is that the pulsecontrols don't have HW controls for alsa devices
[23:59] <Len-nb> xfce has pulse controls as well
[23:59] <Len-nb> we don't need that.