[14:01] <mhall119> will be starting momentarily, problems with the new Google+ hangouts
[14:05] <ckpringle> I can't see any video?
[14:05] <t1mp_> ckpringle: me neither. 16:01:39 < mhall119> will be starting momentarily, problems with the new Google+ hangouts
[14:05] <mhall119> ckpringle: google hangout changes are causing problems
[14:06] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/d90216735cd879f59d9e8f946686ba5825835887?authuser=1&hl=en for anybody who wants to join
[14:06] <ckpringle> mhall119: :(
[14:07] <mhall119> going live
[14:07] <ckpringle> mhall119: \o/
[14:07] <ckpringle> Please stand by.
[14:08] <aquarius_uds> woo responsive layout!
[14:08] <aquarius_uds> make it so.
[14:09] <alecu> no "lower third" today?
[14:09] <mhall119> alecu: working on that
[14:10] <alecu> awesome!
[14:11] <fugue88> mhall119: Yes, but takes a while to repaint.
[14:12] <aquarius_uds> can you talk about how you propose to do this, from code? What does an app developer do to take advantage of it?
[14:12] <t1mp_> QUESTION: ^
[14:13] <dobey> extending on aquarius_uds's question, sill there be a signal to tell the app what form factor the app is running on, when switching between form factors for the converged device plan?
[14:13] <t1mp_> aquarius_uds: here you can see how you would use it http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~gerboland/+junk/googleio-layout/view/head:/googleio.qml
[14:14] <fugue88> dobey: I suppose that would be sufficient to handle screen rotation as well.  But maybe not?
[14:14] <aquarius_uds> I have now seen the demo code, which I had not seen when I asked the question
[14:14] <dobey> fugue88: i think qt already has a way to signal screen rotation?
[14:14]  * fugue88 doesn't know
[14:15] <Yotota> QUESTION : What you show is made with "item".I think we should allow the "pagestack" to easily display more than one page at the same time for tablets. On smartphone we'd have one page after the other, on tablet we could display two pages or more at the same time.
[14:15] <aquarius_uds> I don't think we need rotation for this. What's the difference between "this window got rotated" and "this window got resized from 480x800 to 800x480"?
[14:15] <dobey> so it will just be automatic, and the app provides N different layouts for N different device/layout types?
[14:16] <t1mp_> zsombor turned into a giant tennis ball
[14:16] <dobey> aquarius_uds: viewing angle
[14:16] <alecu> aquarius_uds: the only difference is subpixel antialiasing, but I guess qml should handle that automatically
[14:16] <netcurli> dat tennis ball
[14:17] <pmcgowan> mhall119 zsombi we are not seeing the code
[14:17] <pmcgowan> ok now we are
[14:17] <Yotota> +1 aquarius_uds we don't need rotation, the window size is sufficient.
[14:17] <dobey> i disagree
[14:17] <fugue88> QUESTION: What happens when no layout's constraints match the current screen?  Or is that situation prevented statically?
[14:17] <aquarius_uds> dobey: that's how I think it should work, yes: the app provides as many different layouts as it thinks are reasonable. (The same as responsive web design. You make breakpoints.)
[14:18] <pmcgowan> sorry we can now
[14:18] <fugue88> We can barely read the code window on youtube.
[14:18] <aquarius_uds> fugue88: if no layouts match this screen, then nothing would display, right? The same as if I don't put any layouts at all :)
[14:18] <alex-abreu> zsombi, that's fine it works now
[14:18] <dobey> aquarius_uds: a signal is still useful though, in the event that apps want to do other things that aren't displayed, for different layouts
[14:18] <fugue88> aquarius_uds: I'd consider that a bad thing.
[14:19] <fugue88> I could see some devs not considering that something might run on, for example, a larger screen than the dev himself has.
[14:19] <dobey> aquarius_uds: if you don't add any layouts, then you have 1 layout (or you haven't written an app)
[14:19] <fugue88> Hmm.
[14:19] <aquarius_uds> fugue88: what should happen if I do this: import QtQuick 2.0; Rectangle { color: "red"; Rectangle { color: "blue" } } ? I have given no indication where those rectangles should be, so they don't show anywhere.
[14:20] <aquarius_uds> that's the way QML works.
[14:20] <aquarius_uds> dobey: agreed that you should get a signal if your screen size changes, totally.
[14:20] <fugue88> Well, that'd be good.  I don't know QML.
[14:21] <aquarius_uds> but I agree with Kaleo_ and mhall119 -- people should not be saying "is this a tablet?", they should be saying "is this an 800px screen? does the list of inputs include touch?"
[14:21] <dobey> Kaleo_: form factor is important for input device types, and such. it's a corner case, but still a valid requirement for apps to know about :)
[14:22] <madjr> hmm
[14:23] <aquarius_uds> yes. Apologies. "am I an 800px window?", not "is this an 800px screen" :-)
[14:23] <madjr> I think on phablet mode, no desktop mode apps should be available
[14:23] <dobey> it shouldn't matter if the screen (or window) is 800px or 1600px
[14:24] <Kaleo_> Yotota: the PageStack will do that automatically in time
[14:24] <alecu> aquarius_uds: "am I a 40 grid units window?"
[14:24] <dobey> also not useful
[14:24] <aquarius_uds> alecu: yes. One day I will remember abotu grid units. ;)
[14:24] <alecu> dobey: I don't understand. why not?
[14:25] <dobey> alecu: because of differences in DPI. 300dpi tablet will have more grid units than a 100dpi 23" monitor :)
[14:26] <fugue88> Doesn't that defeat the purpose of grid-units?
[14:26] <fugue88> dobey: ^
[14:26] <aquarius_uds> dobey: that's what grid units are meant to cater for.
[14:26] <Limurx> Is it planned to provide a phablet and desktop UI for every application or will one application for the one and one for the other?
[14:26] <dobey> what's the url for that wiki page about the grid units?
[14:26] <Kaleo_> Limurx: prefix with QUESTION
[14:26] <Kaleo_> Limurx: we'll take your question next
[14:27] <Limurx> k thanks
[14:27] <Yotota> +1 for user-made template library
[14:27] <t1mp_> dobey: not wiki, but I guess you want this https://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/qml/mobile/resolution-independence.html
[14:27] <dobey> timright, that
[14:28] <Kaleo_> Yotota: generally speaking we want to have a staging/extras repository containing experimental components that people want to share but that are not ready for inclusion in the toolkit
[14:28] <aquarius_uds> QUESTION: can't LayoutManager just examine all the Layouts and confirm that they are mutually exclusive, and if not, display a warning or something? That would cater for "no layouts apply to the current window" *and* "two layouts apply to the current window"
[14:29] <dobey> anyway, a gu is just an arbitrary number of px. so it will vary across screens. using "am I X gu?" is equally not as useful as "am I X px?"
[14:29] <Yotota> Kaleo: That's a good idea :)
[14:29] <aquarius_uds> dobey: but your 300dpi screen device will have a different definition of a gu than your 100dpi device does
[14:29] <aquarius_uds> dobey:that's the point. :)
[14:30] <dobey> aquarius_uds: yes, but it doesn't mean that X gu is the full width of the screen (assuming full screen everywhere).
[14:30] <Kaleo_> dobey: gu is compatible with something like metres
[14:30] <dobey> aquarius_uds: thus it's not a useful measurement for determining layout changes :)
[14:31] <Kaleo_> dobey: which means it is useful for determining layout changes
[14:31] <Yotota> QUESTION: Is it plan to have a simulator to simulate different screen densities ?
[14:31] <madjr> @Limurx I think all windowed apps should be tied to desktop (desktop mode = true)
[14:31] <aquarius_uds> Kaleo_, mhall119, zsombi: yes. That is why I think the LayoutManager should be smart. Detect whether more than one could be true or if none could be true, and *tell the developer*.
[14:31] <dobey> Kaleo_: comaptible and a constant portion of, are not the same thing :)
[14:32] <Kaleo_> dobey: ok
[14:32] <fugue88> I think first-match is good enough.
[14:32] <Kaleo_> dobey: I'll be more precise then
[14:32] <dobey> Kaleo_: the best solution is to not rely on gu or px at all, for determining layout change. so a layout change signal would obviously be best
[14:32] <aquarius_uds> Kaleo_, mhall119, zsombi: so I start up my app and it says "WARNING: there is no layout available for screens wider than 80gu. WARNING: there are two layouts available when screen width is less than 15gu."
[14:33] <christoffer> anyone got the link for the hangout or is it full?
[14:33] <alecu> Kaleo_: on a tv, I probably want two columns instead of the three columns I get on a laptop. So I guess dobey's critique stands.
[14:33] <dobey> for instance, "am i 10 gu?" doesn't tell me if my app is in the sidebar, or if i'm just on a low dpi device
[14:33] <zsombi> christoffer: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/d90216735cd879f59d9e8f946686ba5825835887?authuser=1&hl=en
[14:33] <dobey> mhall119: gu will have to change on fly if convergence is going to work
[14:33] <Kaleo_> dobey: 1 GU always has the same visual perceived size
[14:34] <Kaleo_> dobey: regardless of the device
[14:34] <fugue88> dobey: Oh, now there's a good example.  I agree that "modality" would be necessary to know, but I still think gu dimensions are as well.
[14:34] <dobey> Kaleo_: i have hardware that breaks that assumption :)
[14:34] <Kaleo_> dobey: which?
[14:35] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/d90216735cd879f59d9e8f946686ba5825835887?authuser=1&hl=en
[14:35] <dobey> my fujitsu laptop
[14:36] <fugue88> dobey: And how does your fujitsu laptop violate it?
[14:36] <t1mp_> whois fugue88
[14:36] <t1mp_> +/
[14:36] <t1mp_> :)
[14:36] <fugue88> :)
[14:36] <fugue88> David Owen
[14:36] <dobey> fugue88: there's no clarification of what a "retina laptop" is
[14:36] <Kaleo_> dobey: join the hangout
[14:37] <aquarius_uds> QUESTION: why can't I name an item to be placed in a layout by id rather than Layout.name? (When the answer is "because QML won't recognise the ID if it's in another qml file", have we thought about changing that, upstream?)
[14:37] <madjr> QUESTION: you think is best not to allow traditional "windowed" desktop apps in phablet mode?
[14:37] <fugue88> dobey: What's that have to do with anything?  Does your laptop have a higher DPI in one part of the screen than the other?
[14:37] <mhall119> aquarius_uds: join the hangout
[14:38] <aquarius_uds> mhall119: I'd rather dobey's objection was sorted out than mine :)
[14:38] <fugue88> dobey: Join the hangout!  :)
[14:38] <dobey> fugue88: it's only 1280x800, but it's only 5.6" screen
[14:38] <dobey> i'm trying
[14:38] <mhall119> aquarius_uds: which objection was that/
[14:38] <Yotota> madjir  : If someone whant to use windowed apps I'd would just switch to desktop mode, but this mode should be default only when docked.
[14:39] <Kaleo_> ckpringle: you can answer madjr's question :)
[14:39] <Yotota> *want
[14:40] <ckpringle> aquarius_uds: oh hai
[14:40] <fugue88> dobey: So this is less of "I have hardware" where "1 GU always has the same visual perceived size", and more of "I have hardware that I classify as 'retina' but doesn't fit the *general* guidlines on the linked doc."
[14:40] <fugue88> s/always/doesn't always/
[14:41] <ckpringle> madjr: was that what you meant?
[14:41] <Yotota> There are loader to load external qml file and signal to communicate between them so it's ok
[14:41] <madjr> Yes like gimp or mouse oriented apps
[14:41] <fugue88> (And that is exactly why I think X should go back to reporting real DPI, not the "96 dpi" lie.)   ;)
[14:42] <madjr> agree they should be kept to desktop mode only
[14:42] <ckpringle> madjr: right.
[14:42] <ckpringle> :)
[14:43] <fugue88> aquarius_uds: Another level of indirection will solve all our problems.  :P
[14:44]  * aquarius_uds drops off again
[14:46] <fugue88> dobey: That depends on how the size of a gu is determined.
[14:47] <fugue88> Kaleo_: So, how is the gu size in pixels determined for a specific device?  Is hardware queried (like X querying EDID info), or by someone saying "I know this is a TV, so..."
[14:48] <fugue88> Or by the user...
[14:48] <aquarius_uds> fugue88: it should be done as part of the release of Ubuntu for that device.
[14:49] <fugue88> aquarius_uds: Ouch.  So every new handheld or pluggable monitor will need custom info in a database, and some off-brand that nobody else has falls by the wayside?
[14:50] <madjr> 5" laptop ? I wonder what can you do with that ?
[14:50] <aquarius_uds> fugue88: a new handheld device will need to have a specific build anyway. I am not sure what the plan is on a converged device with monitors.
[14:50] <fugue88> Because I can go buy a 7" device with a DPI of 100, and I can buy another right next to it on the shelf with a DPI of 250.
[14:50] <fugue88> And they're basically the same platform.
[14:51] <Yotota> fugue88 :yes and grid layout are here to make same the same layout
[14:51] <Yotota> *grid unit sorry
[14:51] <Yotota> they will both have the same amount of grid unit
[14:52] <madjr> what apps do you usually run on an 5" laptop? to work on it i would usually plug it to a monitor
[14:52] <fugue88> Well, right now we're getting different stories on this.  Mostly, I think the confusion is how "pixels per gu" is determined by device.
[14:52] <fugue88> If we follow strictly the doc at https://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/qml/mobile/resolution-independence.html (which I don't think the intention is), dobey's complaint stands.
[14:53] <fugue88> If we query displays for DPI and calculate gu size based on that, it goes away, modulu concerns about viewing distance.
[14:53] <dobey> fugue88: and broken displays
[14:53] <fugue88> dobey: Yes, definitely.
[14:53] <fugue88> Which might include every TV.
[14:54] <dobey> there's a good reason that most every PS3 game asks me to resize/adjust screen settings when i put it in :-/
[14:54] <fugue88> I wouldn't mind going through that process for a display.
[14:57] <michelR> QUESTION : an Ubuntu touch app started on desktop will be full screen ? in a window ?
[14:57] <dobey> michelR: up to app author but should probably be a window in most cases
[15:00] <alex-abreu> great session
[15:00] <alecu> bye!
[15:00] <dobey> bye
[15:04] <mhall119> If anybody wants to join ghe Core Apps Plans hangout: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9d84b48b6e659cdab7ffd5f0caa3dc2ada095f4e?authuser=0&hl=en
[15:07]  * balloons waves
[15:07] <CheeseBurg> mhall119: Is there a session this UDS to talk about the future of the software center or is there a person I can talk to outside UDS about it.
[15:09] <CheeseBurg> Jono: I have, a couple of times lol
[15:12] <CheeseBurg> Ok, makes sense
[15:19] <CheeseBurg> I think one or two games in the core apps would be good to have.
[15:19] <CheeseBurg> Simple games like sedoku
[15:20] <thomi> Ugh - I missed the start, but I see autopilot has been mentioned - I'd suggest we push to have apps tested before we include them - is that the plan already?
[15:21] <balloons> thomi, indeed
[15:21] <balloons> autopilot is intended to be part of the gateway to including them in the image
[15:21] <thomi> it is? awesome
[15:22] <CheeseBurg> Also having similar to the newstand and bookshelf like iOS has would be very nice. An app the hold all our books/PDFs and can update with the latest issues of things
[15:25] <thomi> is there anything we can do on the autopilot side to help app devs write autopilot tests?
[15:26] <ppisati> just installed latest phablet img on a nexus7 but, for example, the weather app is a still image, am i missing something or what?
[15:29] <mhall119> ppisati: what version of the image did you use?
[15:30] <balloons> atm, we're working with the select applications that are ready to go
[15:30] <fginther> mhall119, thomi getting autopilot tests to run automatically for each MP or on a package will take some infrastructure work
[15:30] <mhall119> balloons: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9d84b48b6e659cdab7ffd5f0caa3dc2ada095f4e?authuser=0&hl=en
[15:30] <fginther> but it's a problem that can be solved
[15:30] <thomi> fginther: what about dfaily runs?
[15:30] <balloons> sadly I can't join both hangouts at once..
[15:30] <balloons> stuck hosting
[15:30] <thomi> fginther: right - phones are cheap
[15:30] <ppisati> mhall119: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5671125/
[15:31] <ppisati> uhm
[15:31] <ppisati> way does it say 21 feb?
[15:31] <ppisati> *why
[15:31] <balloons> fginther, thomi I haven't spoken with sergio, but the goal is to get a jenkins setup for the autopilot tests
[15:32] <thomi> surely we already have a jenkins machine set up, we just need more hardware?
[15:32] <balloons> for the core apps that is.. martin was helping him with that, and I'll be checking on it after uds
[15:32] <thomi> cool
[15:32] <thomi> well, it sounds like people are on our side of things anyway :)
[15:32] <balloons> hehe ;-)
[15:33] <fginther> thomi, I think it's mostly tooling work to get it working. Our current tools for testing autopilot from our jenkins use libvirt, which we don't have for the core apps jenkins
[15:33] <balloons> in theory the test authors will supply the ap tests, and the community will help supply the manual tests and testing
[15:33] <thomi> fginther: oh, I assumed we'd run tests on real hardware
[15:34] <balloons> so you want a blueprint just for these apps.. heh.. I'll revive the blueprint we had on this
[15:34] <balloons> we can create a topic that includes the blueprint if you wish
[15:34] <balloons> I already have a quality community topic
[15:35] <fginther> thomi, hmm. There may be a reason why we don't want to use real hw, but I can't think of one at the moment.
[15:35] <fginther> thomi, there is a bp workitem to solve this the autopilot testing gap
[15:36] <thomi> I'm imagining a reasonably large library of hardware covering the devices we want to test against.
[15:36] <thomi> fginther: got the link? or maybe you could subscribe me?
[15:37] <fginther> thomi, http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1305-appdev-1305-touch-image-coreapps
[15:37] <fginther> thomi, I guess it's not in a bp yet
[15:38] <thomi> fginther: ok, thanks
[15:38] <balloons> jonobacon, sure.. let's keep it on one or two blueprints if we can.. and the burndown will happen by lumping it as a topic
[15:39] <balloons> i'll add a work item here on the blueprint for it
[15:39] <balloons> there's about a minute or so delay
[15:39] <balloons> sadly
[15:40] <balloons> and don't worry thomi, I'll make sure there's some work items on there for the autopilot stuff.. making sure jenkins gets setup, docs are good and created, etc :-)
[15:41] <nik90> mhall119: hi..just got home
[15:41] <balloons> nik90, hello :-)
[15:41] <nik90> balloons: hi
[15:41] <balloons> fginther, ohh is there already some work items to track setting up a jenkins for this?
[15:42] <balloons> got a link to the bp?
[15:42] <fginther> balloons, just the etherpad for now: http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1305-appdev-1305-touch-image-coreapps
[15:43] <balloons> fginther, ahh ok.. So I might just lump that existing bp for any autopilot stuff that's identified
[15:43] <balloons> thanks
[15:47] <Yotota> I think we should define how to access theme color asap before every dev hardcode color & backgrounds and make unthemable apps.
[15:48] <balloons> ohh, could we have a big testing event for the 1.0 - final apps?
[15:48] <balloons> mhall119, ^^
[15:50] <balloons> ok, so build out all the tests needed, then have a big test-a-thon in sept?
[15:50] <CheeseBurg> So after 13.10 will we start making the core apps have the ability to transform into desktop apps, you know the convergence idea.
[15:53] <CheeseBurg> But all these phone to desktop work will be done ADTER 13.10 releases, right?
[15:53] <CheeseBurg> AFTER*
[15:54] <mhall119_uds> yes
[16:05] <mhall119> If anybody wants to join the hangout, here's the link: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/869a0280f6d9a238644ab4d51ddadd3d7cd5a554?authuser=0&hl=en
[16:12] <bioevolgenec> member of Greek loco team here
[16:13] <bioevolgenec> There are a few developers in our team, but we haven't started anything about the Ubuntu phone yet.
[16:15] <bobweaver> most the time at my loco events I end up helping user just set up there ubuntu/whatever flash ect. no one is dev but me. also we get people that yell about how bad unity is
[16:16] <bioevolgenec> Mostly Python, a bit of Java and C++.
[16:17] <bioevolgenec> Well, we have some very excited people and I believe classes over the summer will be helpful.
[16:21] <bioevolgenec> Yes, exactly. Workshops on the new technologies, scope-writing, QML etc
[16:21] <bobweaver> Upstate NY
[16:21] <bobweaver> mhall119,  ^^
[16:22] <Chris_gagnon-uds> I was hoping for a contest :P
[16:22] <bobweaver> no deals around these parts mhall119
[16:23] <bioevolgenec> At some point, members of our loco team had discussed on the possibility of a contest on Ubuntu contribution. Something that could be done via Launchpad, such as finding and fixing bugs, translating, writing code...
[16:27] <bobweaver> mhall119,  say marco
[16:27] <bioevolgenec> Just for Ubuntu-gr. I believe we would be overwhelmed with anything bigger.
[16:28] <mhall119_uds> just said it
[16:29] <bobweaver> mhall119,  polo
[16:29] <bobweaver> that is delay
[16:30] <bobweaver> pay me to write some lol
[16:30] <bobweaver> hackfest at local collage's
[16:31] <bobweaver> flyers at xerox and RIT MIT ect
[16:31] <bobweaver> barcamp would be a good place to start
[16:32] <bobweaver> hackers for hacks ect
[16:32] <bobweaver> most people use apple though that thouse things
[16:32] <bobweaver> just being honest
[16:32] <bobweaver> yeah here they do but not in the wild
[16:33] <bobweaver> truth they all use things like mac and windows '
[16:33] <mhall119> bobweaver: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9d84b48b6e659cdab7ffd5f0caa3dc2ada095f4e?authuser=0&hl=en
[16:33] <bobweaver> mhall119,  that party is over
[16:34] <bobweaver> yeah I will
[16:34] <bobweaver> let me get dressed
[16:35] <mhall119> good idea ;)
[16:37] <bobweaver> mhall119,  http://imagebin.org/257853
[16:37] <mhall119> bobweaver: try https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/869a0280f6d9a238644ab4d51ddadd3d7cd5a554?authuser=0&hl=en
[18:02] <mhall119> dpm-uds: are you running this one?
[18:02] <dpm> mhall119, yeah, setting up the hangout now
[18:04] <dpm> mhall119, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/a2144a6defbf8b6db6189cd0daa0c87de1c54b72