[05:58] <knightwise> mornin everyone
[07:29] <MooDoo> hello all
[07:41] <czajkowski> Gandi now offers discounts for Ubuntu Members -  http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/05/16/gandi-now-offers-discounts-for-ubuntu-members/
[07:43] <kaushal> Hi
[07:44] <kaushal> is there a way to focus Pidgin IM Conversation Window on raring running unity desktop shell?
[08:09] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[08:13] <BigRedS> Good Morning!
[08:14] <brobostigon> good morning BigRedS
[08:19] <dwatkins> helloes
[08:20] <knightwise> hey dwatkins
[08:22] <brobostigon> morning dwatkins and knightwise
[08:24] <dwatkins> If you have flash installed (and audio working) you might enjoy this brass band remake of some Daft Punk tunes... https://soundcloud.com/iamjasonalexander-1
[08:34] <JamesTai1> Good morning all, happy Seamonkey Day! :-D
[08:34] <MooDoo> LOL
[08:35] <JamesTait> Seems like an odd one.
[08:36] <JamesTait> Cos clearly all the other observances are totally normal....
[08:38] <andylockran> gents and ladies..
[08:38] <andylockran> anyone got recommendations on how to stop phpunit crashing out on a fatal when running a CodeCoverage report (or set the params for which folders the Code Coverage should be looking at)>?
[08:39] <andylockran> mgdm_: ..
[09:27] <daubers> Random question of the day!
[09:27] <daubers> What are people using instead of google apps these days for email and stuff?
[09:30] <MooDoo> i'm still using google, no reason to change
[09:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> Zentyal for our company email server, TB on the desktop. We do use G for shared calendars and some collaborative documents, and hangouts. My home email is G Apps.
[09:31] <mungbean> zimbra
[09:38] <daubers> Hmmmm
[09:38] <mungbean> zimbra is all kinds of awesome
[09:38] <daubers> I have a new thing I'm setting up and don't really want to shell out for Apps now it's chargeable
[09:39] <mungbean> have y'all seen the OSS replacement for google reader that you can install on your own servers
[09:39] <czajkowski> mungbean: are you american and from the south?
[09:41] <BigRedS> mungbean: I thought that predated the demise of google reader?
[09:41] <BigRedS> czajkowski: hackntalk.org is still saying "First HacknTalk is almost here"
[09:41] <mungbean> the one called comma looks good
[09:42] <czajkowski> BigRedS: hackntalkjune.eventbrite.com
[09:42] <BigRedS> I've still not mailed gllug :/ should I just link to the eventbrige page?
[09:42] <czajkowski> will update the site later on today
[09:42] <czajkowski> cheers
[09:42] <BigRedS> ah, cool, that'll be a 'yes' then :)
[09:42] <czajkowski> thank you
[09:42] <czajkowski> :)
[09:42] <czajkowski> 21 so far
[09:42] <czajkowski> hoping tomake the 40 mark again
[09:44] <BigRedS> Oooh, coool. Got another cake sponsor? :)
[09:45] <czajkowski> did we have cake?
[09:45] <czajkowski> we had yummy coookies
[09:48] <BigRedS> Oh yeah, I counted those as cake
[09:48] <czajkowski> ahh
[09:48] <czajkowski> the bakewell tarts were rather tasty
[09:49] <BigRedS> Ah! Yeah, those definitely count as cakes, surely?
[09:49] <czajkowski> they do now :)
[09:49] <BigRedS> haha
[09:50] <czajkowski> hmm now I want chocolate
[09:50] <czajkowski> bah
[09:52] <mungbean> do duracell still replace items that get broken by their batteries leaking?
[09:53] <mungbean> has anyone every got compensation?
[09:54] <davmor2> Morning all
[09:59] <dwatkins> mungbean: was this before the best-before date?
[09:59] <mungbean> yes dwatkins
[09:59] <mungbean> they leaked and spazzed all over my radio
[09:59] <dwatkins> eek
[10:00] <mungbean> good marketing ploy - advertise the guarantee and silently rmove it, while everyone remembers it for next 30 years
[10:09] <mungbean> lol i had a tomboy bug/error and googled it. top link was a bug filed by popey in 2007 \o/
[10:10] <mungbean> #152978
[10:10] <mungbean> bug 152978
[10:21] <christel> 4
[10:21] <MooDoo> 3
[10:21] <mgdm> 2
[10:22] <mungbean> 1
[10:22] <mgdm> Thunderbirds are go!
[10:31] <knightwise> lol
[10:31] <knightwise> taadataadaaaaaah !
[10:41] <Myrtti> NOOOOOO only four teabags of Yorkshire for Hard Water left
[10:43] <brobostigon> :(
[10:45] <mungbean> /r/britishproblems
[10:45] <mungbean> although Myrtti is a scandie and i hate tea
[10:46] <christel> tea is revolting :(
[10:46] <davmor2> christel: unless it's a g&t right then you like it :D
[10:47] <christel> ew no, gin is as revolting as tea
[10:47] <christel> (as is tonic water for that sake)
[10:47] <christel> a hogsback tea is alright i suppose
[11:26] <diplo> Afternoon all
[12:09] <DanChapman> Hi all :)
[12:26] <DanChapman> Is there much going on with the UK LoCo at the moment? I would like to get involved
[12:32] <BigRedS> Heh. Apparently not :)
[12:32] <BigRedS> Did you have anything in mind?
[12:37] <DanChapman> Im not sure. As i am new to the community, was just wondering if their was anything i can get involved in
[12:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> DanChapman: Hi
[12:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> The "man man" is AlanBell who is at lunch right now.
[12:38] <brobostigon> liquid lunch ?
[12:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> There are always thing to be doing I guess
[12:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> brobostigon: I hope not. He didn't invite me.
[12:39] <brobostigon> TheOpenSourcerer: eeeek , :(
[12:39] <DanChapman> TheOpenSourcerer: Hi, ok well i'm keen to get stuck in.
[12:39] <TheOpenSourcerer> There is a wiki for stuff.
[12:39] <brobostigon> i have just been playing with opensimulator the alst few days. challenging stuff.
[12:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> DanChapman: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[12:40] <DanChapman> TheOpenSourcerer: thats great thanks will go take a look
[12:55] <shrik> bye bye Broadcom! Hello Intel!
[12:56] <shrik> i took someone's advice on here and replaced my shitty Broadcom wireless card with an Intel
[12:57] <directhex> hm
[12:57] <shrik> and I can see the difference already -- so thank you, whoever it was!
[12:58] <directhex> but everyone loves broadcom now, for their Raspberry Pi involvement!
[13:02] <shrik> wait, really?
[13:03] <directhex> i dunno. i assume so
[13:03] <directhex> i know i fell out with intel wifi, over their broken 802.11n implementation
[13:03] <shrik> hrm. if they can provide a decent SoC for an Rpi then they should provide a decent wireless driver
[13:03] <mungbean> yeah grrr
[13:03] <directhex> the rpi soc is less "decent" and more "on crack"
[13:03] <shrik> heh why's that?
[13:04] <BigRedS>  directhex: my intel chip in my Thinkpad works well enough that I've no idea what it is
[13:04] <shrik> directhex: erm, and what's wrong with the 802.11n implementation on the intel? that was my primary reason for getting the card :|
[13:05] <directhex> well, it's down to what the chip was orignally designed for, then what that design became for the soc which was used in the rpi
[13:05] <mungbean> 4965agn doesn't work with n wifi
[13:05] <directhex> shrik, there's an AP-dependent lockup issue when connected in 11n mode. connection stops routing packets after an indeterminite amount of time.
[13:06] <directhex> but it depends on the wireless AP you're connected to
[13:06] <directhex> cisco are mostly fine. huawei you get minutes
[13:08]  * mungbean has a huawei
[13:09] <directhex> bt homehub is huawei
[13:09] <mungbean> not sure my huawei is dd-wrtable
[13:09] <mungbean> and if it makes a diff
[13:09] <shrik> any idea what plusnet routers are? mine says "technicolor"..
[13:10] <mgdm> that's the manufacturer, believe it or not
[13:11]  * BigRedS doesn't believe it
[13:12] <mgdm> http://www.technicolor.com/en/hi/digital-home/mediaaccess/dsl/wireless/adsl/technicolor-tg582n
[13:13] <directhex> technicolor = thomson
[13:14] <mgdm> ah
[13:16] <shrik> really? so it's the same routers as the Speedtouches that used to go out earlier?
[13:18] <shrik> also, um, a PSA: Plusnet stores passwords in plaintext..
[13:19] <mgdm> Oh?
[13:20] <shrik> yeah, I signed up recently with them. Their welcome letter had my password with all but last three characters *'ed out..
[13:22] <BigRedS> hah, that's both useless and insecure
[13:27] <shrik> yup, also shows that they store the cleartext passwords. Fortunately I'd used a throwaway..
[13:28] <Laney> http://plaintextoffenders.com/
[13:44] <mungbean> i thought that said somehthing else Laney
[13:46] <SuperMatt> hmmm... clearing out a lot of the .files in my ~ has sped up my PC - most notably in launching a new terminal, and loading vim
[13:46] <mungbean> search paths?
[13:47] <mungbean> unity launcher takes 15s on my home laptop
[13:47] <mgdm> did you remove .bashrc or .vim? :-)
[13:47] <SuperMatt> no I didn't
[13:47] <SuperMatt> and I don't think it's search paths because I'm pretty certain I don't have ~ in there
[13:47] <SuperMatt> I shall have a look
[13:47] <SuperMatt> nope, not paths
[13:47] <mungbean> bash compleition?
[13:49] <SuperMatt> I don't think so
[14:02] <mungbean> dns issues?
[14:02] <Laney> bees
[14:02] <SuperMatt> is that directed at me?

[14:03] <mungbean> sometimes the prompt is slow to appear when it can't gethostbyname
[14:03] <SuperMatt> hmmm... my hosts file is quite fulll
[14:03] <mungbean>  a bit unlikely thou
[14:04] <SuperMatt> indeed
[14:04] <mungbean> i'm still suspicous of bash completion
[14:05] <mungbean> isn't it called by /etc/bashrc
[14:05] <SuperMatt> clearing out my hosts file a little bit helped speed it up
[14:05] <SuperMatt> I think I've done enough now
[14:05] <SuperMatt> I've done a lot of file clearing/moving
[14:27] <SuperMatt> looks like it may have been tracker slowing my PC down too
[14:27] <SuperMatt> there were a number of things really
[14:28] <mungbean> oh tracker...shagger
[14:28] <SuperMatt> indeedf
[14:28] <SuperMatt> but I guess tracker is what's needed for super-fun-happy-unity-times
[14:31] <zleap> how do we get at the advocacy kit if we don't use ubuntu, i am using lubuntu (given the kit is designed for ubuntu and flavours) http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/05/16/getting-the-ubuntu-advocacy-kit-to-1-0/
[14:32] <SuperMatt> you can still complete all of those steps
[14:32] <SuperMatt> it'll all work nicely
[14:33] <zleap> but I can't point dash at anything as I don't have dash
[14:33] <zleap> it installed fine so dash isn't a dependancy
[14:33] <SuperMatt> well it'll simply somewhere in your list of applications
[14:33] <SuperMatt> you'll have to track it down
[14:34] <zleap> ok
[14:35] <SuperMatt> gimme a tick and I *might* be able to tell you where they belong
[14:36] <zleap> ok
[14:37] <SuperMatt> /usr/share/doc/uak-en/html/C/uak/index.html
[14:37] <SuperMatt> well that's the link it opens
[14:37] <SuperMatt> but it doesn't look like it appears in any of the menus
[14:38] <zleap> same here
[14:39] <zleap> got it, thanks
[14:39] <SuperMatt> it only appears in the dash because it reads all the .desktop files from /usr/share/applications. Lubuntu has a menu system with folders and subfolders, so relying on simply reading the *.desktop doesn't work
[14:39] <mungbean> any nx/nomachine users here?
[14:39] <SuperMatt> at least, I don't think it does
[14:40] <SuperMatt> hooray! Now I killed and restarted tracker, my pc is back up to speed again
[14:40] <SuperMatt> no more wait io, and my load is dropping fast
[14:40] <SuperMatt> maybe I should learn how to make conky things and keep a track of tracker
[14:41] <SuperMatt> after all, who watches the watchmen?
[14:41] <zleap> SuperMatt, i am filing a bug report on this
[14:41] <SuperMatt> zleap: cool, good man
[14:42] <SuperMatt> guh, my pc is running so must faster now
[14:42] <zleap> can i cite you as having found the same thing
[14:42] <SuperMatt> uhm, sure
[14:43] <SuperMatt> wait, no, not yet
[14:43] <SuperMatt> lemme try something
[14:43] <SuperMatt> even my vms have sped up
[14:43] <SuperMatt> I must remember to keep an eye on tracker more often
[14:43] <SuperMatt> zleap: what version of lubuntu are you running?
[14:44] <zleap> 12.10
[14:45] <SuperMatt> hmmm... well I'll try it in 13.04 for now, see what I come up with
[14:45] <zleap> ok
[14:45] <SuperMatt> if I still see the same thing, I'll happily let you cite me
[14:50] <zleap> SuperMatt, submitted as Bug #1180843 as i suggested they include the link you gave me above to it,  to help users with similar problems,  this is a easier fix i guess, adding a local url to a website
[14:52] <zleap> SuperMatt, ok np
[14:59] <SuperMatt> there's really nothing more I need to add to this bug report
[14:59] <SuperMatt> good work chap
[15:01] <zleap> np
[15:01] <zleap> also my first bug report, I have added comments to 1 before
[15:08] <SuperMatt> hmm... my computer is going so much faster after tracker-control -e, I might just put in a weekly cronjob
[15:13] <MartijnVdS> o/
[15:15] <^Snake> I'm setting up my Laptop for dual boot (Vista & Ubuntu) on seperate partitions, I know I need to run Firewall & Antivirus on each OS, just wondering what recommendations for Ubuntu, as the versions I use on Windows aint making a Linux version
[15:15] <MartijnVdS> ^Snake: Windows: MS Security Essentials and the built-in firewall
[15:16] <MartijnVdS> ^Snake: Ubuntu doesn't really have antivirus, and unless you install programs that open ports, you don't really need a firewall
[15:16] <MartijnVdS> ^Snake: but Ubuntu comes with "ufw" if you need it
[15:16] <SuperMatt> ufw is a nifty little app
[15:16] <^Snake> for Windows I use Comodo Firewall & AVG Antivirus.
[15:16] <mungbean> it's a shame that bulletin boards/forums don't follow a convention that would allow you to use reader software
[15:16] <SuperMatt> though I find the syntax of it a little hard to remember
[15:17] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: you get used to it though ;)
[15:17] <mungbean> a bit like rss reader/newsgroup reader for forums
[15:17]  * MartijnVdS waves from Lulworth Cove btw
[15:17] <^Snake> Comodo now makes a Linux Antivirus but no firewall, so that's why I thought I'd ask
[15:17] <mungbean> oh lulworth?
[15:17] <mungbean> MartijnVdS: epic
[15:17] <SuperMatt> you can get avg for linux
[15:17] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: yeah, beautiful here
[15:17] <SuperMatt> I'm not sure how good it is though
[15:17] <SuperMatt> http://free.avg.com/gb-en/download.prd-alf
[15:17] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: drove here from Land's End today, have beautiful pics of both now :)
[15:18] <^Snake> I just looked on the AVG site, & all I could find was their Specs saying for Windows only
[15:18] <mungbean> http://www.flickr.com/photos/oimon/7050276535/in/photostream
[15:18] <mungbean> durdle door too?
[15:18] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: doing that tomorrow
[15:18] <mungbean> check the pic ^^
[15:18] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: oooh, nice one :)
[15:19] <^Snake> what is that "ufw" ?
[15:19] <MartijnVdS> ^Snake: it's a command-line tool, the "Ubuntu Firewall"
[15:19] <^Snake> ahh
[15:19] <MartijnVdS> ^Snake: it's made by the people that make ubuntu, and it's a wrapper around iptables and ip6tables
[15:19] <mgdm> You don't really get firewalls in the same way for Linux as you do on Windows - there's nothing that can trap individual processes that I'm aware of
[15:19] <mgdm> Well, nothing simple
[15:19] <shauno> ('uncomplicated firewall' ;)
[15:20] <mungbean> see portland island behind durdle door? thats cool too
[15:20] <mungbean> also chesil beach joining them
[15:21] <^Snake> wouldn't most programs open ports on the net? Browser, Email, Skype (for Linux) ? etc
[15:21] <mungbean> argh who just ruined g+?
[15:21] <mgdm> ^Snake: No, for the most part they will connect to ports, not open any for listening
[15:21] <SuperMatt> ^Snake: yes, you set your default rules so internal can reach external
[15:22] <^Snake> what about utorrent?
[15:22] <SuperMatt> but not the other way around
[15:22] <mgdm> Well, yes, utorrent will open ports
[15:22]  * SuperMatt nods
[15:22] <mgdm> but it will not work without opening ports
[15:22] <^Snake> so basically, ubuntu is tight already?
[15:22] <mgdm> I personally wouldn't bother with firewall or antivirus
[15:22] <SuperMatt> yup
[15:22] <SuperMatt> me neither
[15:22] <mungbean> me threither
[15:23] <SuperMatt> if it turns out that there are some killer drive-by attacks, I might think about it
[15:23] <mgdm> I've not run either ever on any of my Linux machines (aside from a mail server where I had Sophos to scan email before hitting an Exchange server)
[15:24] <^Snake> so if I use uTorrent to work with ppl in Canada & Japan, I would use UFW to ???
[15:24] <SuperMatt> you wouldn't have to do anything
[15:24] <SuperMatt> you set ufw to automatically allow everything going out
[15:24] <mgdm> No, ufw will only break things
[15:24] <MartijnVdS> only if you want to explicitly *block* connections you really need it
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> or if you're paranoid and want to block everything and only allow things individually when you need them
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> but that's going to be very annoying and a lot of work
[15:26] <^Snake> mgdm said utorrent would open ports, so only utorrent would be able to use that, or would anything be able to sneak through that?
[15:27] <SuperMatt> well sure, anything can sneak through an open port, as long as the attacker knows how to exploit utorrent
[15:27] <mgdm> as long as there's not a vulnerability in uTorrent then it'll be fine
[15:27] <MartijnVdS> even if utorrent has a vulnerability, it will probably be fixed quickly
[15:28] <^Snake> so basically, make sure uTorrent is always upto date, but if I don't have it running, would the port still be open or closed?
[15:28] <MartijnVdS> so as long as you keep your machine up to date there's no problem
[15:28] <jpds> People use uTorrent?
[15:28] <MartijnVdS> ^Snake: then it will be closed automatically
[15:28] <jpds> Real men use rTorrent.
[15:28] <SuperMatt> I've just been using transmission myself
[15:28] <MartijnVdS> jpds: real real men use transmission
[15:28] <mungbean> real men run a getty and speak binary
[15:28] <dwatkins> about half the peers on a torrent I'm grabbing are running uTorrent.
[15:29] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: it's huge on Windows
[15:29] <SuperMatt> yeah, we all knew that ;)
[15:29] <SuperMatt> isn't uTorrent the official bit torrent client now/
[15:29] <SuperMatt> ?
[15:30] <SuperMatt> yes, yes it is
[15:30] <dwatkins> strangely the first few results for uTorrent 3.3.0.0 are blocked, I don't think I want ot know why.
[15:30] <SuperMatt> I don't know why anyone would use a windows client on linux, but each to their own
[15:32] <^Snake> ok, besides the "Store" that shows up on the Live CD, what's the best place for looking for/at linux software?
[15:35] <MartijnVdS> ^Snake: the ubuntu software centre
[15:35] <mungbean> MartijnVdS: see my foot at the bottom for scale http://i.imgur.com/lkkVq8Q.jpg
[15:35] <MartijnVdS> whoa
[15:36] <mungbean> i used to collect fossils as a kid.. never that size tho
[15:41] <^Snake> jpds mentioned rTorrent, looking online, Google says it's text based, is there one in a GUI ?
[15:42] <jpds> ^Snake: No, it's suppose to be text-only.
[15:42] <^Snake> ok
[15:44] <mungbean> i don't think i even hav a bt client installed
[15:47] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: I think transmission is installed by default
[15:53] <mungbean> so it is
[16:27] <Myrtti> since this hasn't yet been here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-22542222
[16:27] <Myrtti> EXTERMINATE
[16:27] <Myrtti> This is not the Doctor you are looking for
[16:41] <DJones> Heh, one for czajkowski, Irish court orders "the internet" to remove a video http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0516/450685-court-rules-video-must-be-removed-from-websites/
[16:42] <DJones> I wonder what the chances of compliance with that are on a scale of 0 to 10
[16:42] <czajkowski> DJones: it's an interesting case
[16:42] <mgdm> I thhnk you could answer that in a scale from 0 to 0
[16:42] <czajkowski> not just for internet law but irish law
[16:43] <DJones> I agree with the prinicpal, but I can't see being feasable
[16:47] <shauno> it doesn't seem impossible, given that facebook & google both have their emea headquarters in the republic
[19:20] <SuperMatt> waaait a second, why *does* my work PC have tracker installed? I just checked my home one and tracker isn't in sight at all. No wonder my work PC runs slowly when there's a piece of software on it that isn't standard
[19:30] <MartijnVdS> tracker? isn't that the disk indexer?
[19:31] <MartijnVdS> wasn't that replaced/
[19:33] <directhex> beagle!
[19:33] <MartijnVdS> directhex: does that still exist?
[19:34] <directhex> no
[19:34] <directhex> shame, it was always better than tracker. except a bit crashy
[19:34] <MartijnVdS> that made it useful: no more system load
[19:35] <directhex> it was much faster at indexing
[19:53] <SuperMatt> so tracker isn't being used?
[19:54] <SuperMatt> I guess I know what's getting removed from my work PC on monday
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: is it.. firefox?
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> :P
[19:55] <SuperMatt> hurr
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> hmm
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> apparently, I'm 2 episodes behind on the Swindon Town Swoodilypoopers
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> *watch*
[19:57] <mgdm> the what now?
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Machinima/TheMiracleOfSwindonTown / youtube.com/hankgames
[19:58] <mgdm> ah
[19:59] <MartijnVdS> I don't follow football at all.. but like this it's fun :)
[20:02] <mungbean> might as well watch the bbc hoarders prog then..
[20:03] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: there's a program about the history of "the tube" on 2
[20:04] <mungbean> guy had a massive hoard in his house for 20 years and nobody knew, but a bus driver saw loads of flies , and the council gave him 42 days to clear it up
[20:04] <shauno> I swear the only time I actually watch live/terrestrial TV is when someone in here mentions something
[20:04] <mungbean> sort of guy that wears a boiler suit all day
[20:04] <MartijnVdS> shauno: np ;)
[20:05]  * mungbean thinks that someone is me
[20:05] <mungbean> i never used to watch telly until the baby requires me to put everything down and watch tv only
[20:05] <mungbean> i never used to spen devenings on irc either
[20:05] <mungbean> hoping for cerebral stimulation..in vain :P
[20:07] <mungbean> this guy isn't hoarding clothes and bags like the women
[20:07] <mungbean> seems to be man junk
[20:07] <mungbean> like paint tins etc
[20:07] <mungbean> a garden shed but in the house
[20:09] <mungbean> it seems common with epic hoarders that they can't usually get onto their bed to sleep properly cos of the guff
[20:10] <shauno> bunkbeds ftw
[20:43] <mungbean> i think my son is a hoarder
[21:12] <mungbean> google has an "evil" approach to tax?
[21:15] <mgdm> I would guess they'd not go as far as 'evil'
[21:15] <mgdm> Amazon do the same
[21:16] <shauno> everyone does the same. does anyone really want to pay more tax than they absolutely have to ?
[21:18] <AlanBell> the problem is the Irish tax laws
[21:18] <AlanBell> and to a lesser extent the other offshore tax havens they funnel through
[21:19] <AlanBell> Ireland should be screwing more money out of the shell companies that reside there
[21:19] <mungbean> i was quoting a govt commitee
[21:19] <AlanBell> yeah, I watched it
[21:20] <AlanBell> oh, actually I didn't watch round 2, was that today?
[21:20] <mungbean> i would vote in a party that sorted out the thieving
[21:21] <shauno> I think 'shell' is a bit of a stretch
[21:21] <mungbean> amazon got a 2.5m govt grant. more than the tax they paid
[21:23] <shauno> I believe dublin is paypal's biggest emea footprint, but for regulatory reasons they're based on luxembourg.  that's my idea of a shell
[21:24] <mgdm> zsh is my idea of a shell (sorry)
[21:24] <shauno> but for amazon, google, facebook, apple,intel, etc they have serious footprints here, not just a PO box for the taxman
[21:24] <mgdm> Yeah; Google, Facebook and Amazon have serious buildings here
[21:24] <mgdm> developer offices, and in Amazon's case warehouses
[21:25] <mungbean> dambusters is so cool
[21:25] <shauno> I meant ireland :)
[21:25] <AlanBell> thick shells :)
[21:25] <mgdm> shauno: oops, sorry
[21:26] <shauno> I know amazon are finishing off yet another datacenter here.  google barrow st. is closer to a city block than a po box, etc
[21:26] <mungbean> we could all stop using them..
[21:27] <mungbean> do we have moral responsibility to use only ethical companies?
[21:27] <mungbean> in the long run it benefits us all to pay taxpayers
[21:27] <shauno> why not.  are canonical still based on manx for tax purposes?
[21:29] <directhex> know who is ethical as far as tax goes?
[21:29] <directhex> pc world.
[21:29] <mungbean> carphone warehouse
[21:30] <directhex> costa
[21:30] <mungbean> me
[21:30] <mungbean> i dont drink coffee , i cant afford such luxury
[21:30] <directhex> costa's annual tax bill is enough to pay for the running of two 2000-student secondary schools, with full teaching & admin staff
[21:31] <directhex> starbucks' annual tax bill is enough to pay for a drink at starbucks
[21:31] <ali1234> i would argue that avoiding tax is the more moral choice given the way politicians spend the money
[21:31]  * mgdm watches a debate between an MSP and an MP about the Scottish independence referendum
[21:32] <directhex> ali1234, taxes get spent on things you don't like. that's called "society". you get schools, and you get military intervention in the middle east. all comes out of the same pot of tax
[21:32] <ali1234> directhex: yes, exactly
[21:33] <directhex> avoiding tax means less money for both. personally, i prefer an educated population
[21:33] <ali1234> if we had an educated population this problem wouldn't exist
[21:34] <mungbean> why not?
[21:34] <mungbean> evrythings relative
[21:34] <ali1234> because people would vote more intelligently
[21:34] <directhex> everyone should have the *opportunity* to excel. those that don't have squandered the chance
[21:34] <ali1234> directhex: but they still get to vote
[21:35] <directhex> the alternative is allowing only those with the funds that opportunity. it is not a given that rich people's kids are all smart and everyone else is dumb, and unless that were the case, you are wasting potential talent
[21:35] <mungbean> i know intelligent people who vote on opposite end of spectru, to me because they belive in different priorities and views
[21:39] <mungbean> question time reminds me of school
[21:39] <mungbean> some people are just too interested in politics