[00:07] <DarkEra> brb
[11:07] <DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
[11:07] <DarkEra> i'll be back later, need to sort some important things first and go for a daily walk
[15:32] <ttoine> zequence, do you have the credential for our twitter account, please ?
[21:10] <zequence> DarkEra: The meta is built. haven't tried it myself yet
[21:11] <zequence> Should basically install a gnome desktop system
[21:11] <zequence> I mean, the ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome package in ppa:zequence/testing
[21:11] <zequence> I will move it to another PPA later, but at least it seems to work
[21:12] <DarkEra> zequence, you read minds? i just wanted to highlight you and ask how to proceed :)
[21:13] <DarkEra> i'm going to fire up VB now, can i still add your testing ppa then?
[21:15] <zequence> DarkEra: Sure. But, before you install anything, let's make a snapshot of the netinstall first. I'll have a look too
[21:16] <DarkEra> zequence, i took a snapshot of it last night so all is set
[21:16] <zequence> DarkEra: Ok, so just login, and then: sudo add-apt-repository ppa:zequence/testing
[21:17] <zequence> There's only one package there for saucy right now
[21:17] <zequence> Or, one source package that is
[21:17] <zequence> Which includes all of our meta packages
[21:17] <zequence> Then: sudo apt-get update
[21:17] <zequence> finally: sudo apt-get install ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome
[21:18] <DarkEra> ok, working on it now
[21:21] <DarkEra> zequence, it says it didn't find the add-apt-repository command
[21:22] <zequence> DarkEra: Ok, must be in some package. let me look
[21:22] <DarkEra> ok
[21:24] <zequence> DarkEra: Try installing software-properties-common
[21:24] <zequence> Should not depend on any gui stuff, only a few libraries
[21:27] <DarkEra> that did it, going to update and install the package
[21:30] <DarkEra> ok, it's installing
[21:45] <zequence> I'm installing too right now
[21:45] <zequence> Forgot to take a snapshot :P
[21:45] <zequence> Will have to reinstall all over again
[21:46] <DarkEra> oops
[21:49] <zequence> hmm, since from what I understand, Lubuntu doesn't include pulseaudio, a ubuntustudio-desktop-lxde might be interesting to some folks only for that reason
[21:49] <zequence> Besides, it would also be the most efficient on older machines
[21:50] <zequence> We'll need some kind of procedure for maintaining these desktops, so that we don't fall behind, and that we don't inlcude stuff we don't need
[21:52] <DarkEra> if it's light enough yes, i tried lubuntu once for fun last year but found it using a bit more RAM compared to Xubuntu and Ubuntu Studio 12.04
[21:52] <DarkEra> yep, agreed
[21:55] <zequence> I really doubt it uses more RAM
[21:55] <zequence> but, browsers use a lot of it
[21:56] <zequence> It should be the one using least resources as is
[21:57] <zequence> cool, my patch to pulseaudio-1.1 worked
[21:58] <len-1304> zequence, what kind of patch?
[21:58] <zequence> jack/PA issues should be fixed in Quantal and Precise within the month
[21:58] <DarkEra> indeed, browser use a lot of ram. We could give it a try and i'm sure people ask about a LXDE version in time. That was the case with Dream Studio too
[21:58]  * len-1304 is installing zequence's gnome meta..
[21:58] <zequence> len-1304: a patch made of the upstream commits that fixes the reserve card issue
[21:59] <len-1304> Good !
[21:59] <DarkEra> len-1304, cool :)
[22:00] <zequence> My install worked fine, but mouse and keyboard aren't working
[22:02] <zequence> Had to disable mouse integration
[22:02] <DarkEra> still busy installing :P
[22:02] <zequence> That means, the Virtual system captures your mouse, and you need to use the right Ctrl key to uncapture it
[22:03] <len-1304> I shouldn't have that problem then.
[22:03] <zequence> Well, now the mouse moves, but that's all..
[22:04] <len-1304> Um, why do we have GDM? Will gnome not work with lightdm?
[22:04] <zequence> You can choose between the two
[22:04] <zequence> The Gnome GDM has gone through some pretty big changes
[22:04] <len-1304> I left lightdm as default.
[22:04] <zequence> Or, GDM
[22:05] <DarkEra> i'll keep my grey hair crossed and hope that after the install everything works as should
[22:05] <len-1304> I can change it after install anyway I would guess
[22:06] <zequence> Doesn't really matter which you use
[22:06] <zequence> Unless you really want one over the other
[22:06] <len-1304> zequence, I would suggest in this case, choosing one DM as default and not installing one for each DE.
[22:06] <zequence> Well, one should probably not install more than one DE, but that is up to the user
[22:07] <len-1304> The gnome meta installs gdm, but gives the user the choice of which is default.
[22:08] <len-1304> The set of packages is not big, but it sure has a lot of packages.
[22:10] <DarkEra> i noticed this afternoon that gnome also pulls in unity by the way. On my ubuntu Gnome partition i can choose in session from the login screen. So we have 2 DE's already
[22:10] <len-1304> That may not happen when MIR hits.
[22:13] <len-1304> Ya there is an app called unity here.
[22:14] <len-1304> It would be good to find out if that is a depends or recommends
[22:17] <DarkEra> right, nothing is responding. so can't log in
[22:17] <zequence> Must be something about the graphics
[22:18] <DarkEra> mouse moves and that's it
[22:18] <DarkEra> hmmm
[22:19] <zequence> or xorg
[22:19] <len-1304> Well xfce comes back ok... try gnome next.
[22:20] <len-1304> But 4000 xruns doing nothing already...
[22:21] <len-1304> At -p 128 which on this machine is normally clean
[22:22] <len-1304> Failed to execute default terminal emulator
[22:23] <len-1304> xfce terminal doesn't run.
[22:23] <zequence> len-1304: Are you on lowlatency?
[22:25] <len-1304> I'm looking for a terminal that will run...
[22:25] <zequence> len-1304: Ctrl+Alt+F1
[22:27] <zequence> DarkEra: I might have found a solution
[22:27] <DarkEra> ok, shoot :)
[22:27] <zequence> DarkEra: In the main VirtualBox Gui: File - > Preferences -> Input 
[22:27] <zequence> disable auto capture keyboard
[22:28] <zequence> I'm currently reinstalling myself
[22:28] <len-1304> Ya I figgured that. It is generic.
[22:28] <len-1304> I didn't have that before.
[22:28] <zequence> len-1304: So, maybe the desktop meta pulled it in
[22:28] <len-1304> But that shouldn't stop the terminla from running
[22:29] <zequence> no, it shouldn't
[22:29] <len-1304> I'll go try a gnome login now.
[22:30] <DarkEra> zequence, ok looking into it
[22:31] <DarkEra> nope, nothing
[22:33] <len-1304> un
[22:33] <len-1304> ity
[22:33] <len-1304> is
[22:33] <len-1304> ve
[22:33] <len-1304> ry slo
[22:33] <len-1304> w
[22:33] <DarkEra> hahaha
[22:33] <len-1304> But it runs. The gnome session fails to start.
[22:35] <len-1304> The application start buttons on the left are so slow it seems like they do nothing.
[22:37] <len-1304> Ah, xterm works.
[22:39] <zequence> What I've done is I've copied the desktop seed file from Ubuntu Gnome, without going too much in detail other than renaming ubuntu-gnome-desktop to ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome where ever it was required
[22:39] <zequence> So, it's not exactly well thought through so far
[22:40] <len-1304> Status so far is that it gets me a very, very slow unity and no gnome.
[22:40] <len-1304> Back in studio (xfce) I now have two audio controls in systray.
[22:41] <zequence> len-1304: is this the machine with the very old graphic card?
[22:41] <len-1304> Older.... I have an s3 if you would like to try that ;)
[22:41] <len-1304> Its even older
[22:42] <len-1304> Ya this is the old nvidia
[22:42] <zequence> Is there a gnome classic still?
[22:42] <len-1304> Not on the lightdm menu.
[22:43] <zequence> Could be a problem with no graphic card support. I'll probably need to install this on my machine
[22:43] <len-1304> unity is spending so much time on fading windows in and other non-useful stuff it hardly runs
[22:43] <zequence> I'm trying lighgdm this time
[22:43] <DarkEra> zequence, want me to look on my ubuntu gnome install and check that?
[22:44] <zequence> DarkEra: If you like. But, our meta should (in theory) have what Ubuntu Gnome has (at least for saucy)
[22:45] <DarkEra> right
[22:45] <DarkEra> ok, i'll check it anyway. brb
[22:46] <zequence> Gnome Shell is normally very fast, but it does require a system that is not much older than 5 years to be comfortable
[22:47] <len-1304>  sudo apt-get remove ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome only removes the meta... not all the stuff it dragged in.
[22:47] <zequence> That is usually the case :)
[22:48] <len-1304> Oh well, this is an upgrade to 13.11 from 13.04. I should really do a clean install anyway.
[22:48] <len-1304> An LDE meta would probably be a better one for this machine.
[22:49] <zequence> Yeah, I used it for a P4 not long ago
[22:49] <zequence> Worked fine, only, one core was not fun
[22:49] <DarkEra> there's still a Gnome Classic to choose from
[22:50] <zequence> DarkEra: This is a Saucy install?
[22:50] <DarkEra> uhm... no, 13.04 with gnome 3.8
[22:51] <DarkEra> didn't think about that, sorry
[22:51] <DarkEra> i'm going to revert and try a new install with lightdm too
[22:52] <zequence> At this moment, we don't really know how much our meta differs from Ubuntu Gnome. I guess one could compare the dependency lists if nothing else
[22:52] <zequence> I forgot to take a snapshot again
[22:52] <zequence> Lucky my internet and machine are not lousy
[22:52] <DarkEra> again? :P
[22:53] <zequence> DarkEra: It works
[22:54] <DarkEra> \o/
[22:54] <len-1304> how is the audio?
[22:54] <zequence> DarkEra: I also need to "Disable Mouse Integration" in the "Machine" meny of the virtual OS gui window
[22:55] <zequence> audio is not great on virtual machines
[22:55] <DarkEra> zequence, is that the reinstall with lightdm?
[22:55] <zequence> DarkEra: You might not need to do that
[22:55] <len-1304> zequence, you already use gnome on your main machine so I would guess audio is not an issue
[22:55] <zequence> len-1304: No, it's actually not much worse than on XFCE with desktop effects enabled, as is the default configuration
[22:56] <len-1304> I have had too many complaints about audio on unity to trust it.
[22:56] <len-1304> In all cases when the user went from unity to xfce the problem went away
[22:57] <len-1304> but I would guess that if enough of the effects were turned off on unity that would work too
[22:57] <zequence> Unity was default..
[22:58] <zequence> It also installed some XCFE stuff
[22:58] <zequence> Both ubuntustudio and XFCE are avilable for login, but they are broken (missing a lot of packages)
[22:58] <len-1304> might be upgrades?
[22:58] <zequence> Probably something I've done wrong in seeds
[22:58] <zequence> This was ubuntu-minimal from the start
[22:59] <zequence> There was no DE before
[22:59] <len-1304> Ok, I started with US 13.11
[22:59] <zequence> gnome-shell seems to work
[23:00] <zequence> Well, froze up just now
[23:01] <DarkEra> now i forgot to take i snapshot of  after the install and reverted back... lol... what a night. Reinstalling the package
[23:01] <len-1304> seems to me I had better success just adding gnome shell last time.
[23:02] <len-1304> But things have changed since
[23:03] <zequence> This virtual install doesn't seem great. Some things work really poorly on VB
[23:03] <zequence> Ah, video memory probably
[23:05] <zequence> nope, it just freezes anyway
[23:05] <zequence> Well, it's a start
[23:06] <DarkEra> we'll get there :)
[23:06] <zequence> Now it's just a matter of setting up a system for developing desktop metas, and that means also our default XFCE desktop, which might need some updating (and len has done a good job on that for sure)
[23:07] <zequence> I'm still not fully understanding how seeds work. It's a little bit confusing
[23:07] <len-1304> We will have to watch what happens when the new xfce drops...
[23:10] <DarkEra> when is it to be expected?
[23:11] <len-1304> The problem with seeds seems to be they default to pull in recommends and suggests
[23:12] <len-1304> If there is something you don't want it needs to blacklisted.
[23:13] <zequence> not suggests though?
[23:13] <len-1304> IDK
[23:14] <zequence> Ubuntu Gnome is still fairly new, so I guess they still need to polish their setup too
[23:14] <zequence> It's depending a lot on the Unity setup right now
[23:14] <len-1304> The big problem is that a meta has all the subpackage deps to worry about.
[23:15] <len-1304> unity is going to go through big changes up to 14.04
[23:15] <len-1304> sounds like anyway.
[23:16] <zequence> xorg won't disappear by then, and once Canonical stops supporting it, either the Ubuntu community will do it, or my guess it'll be imported from Debian
[23:16] <zequence> In either case, it'll continue to be there
[23:16] <len-1304> I expect so
[23:16] <len-1304> What I was hinting at is that studio may not work with unity as a desktop.
[23:17] <zequence> Why not?
[23:17] <len-1304> There are some of our apps that rely directly on x
[23:17] <zequence> So, what you are saying is that some applications won't work on Unity+ MIR
[23:17] <len-1304> Some of the apps people will want to install too
[23:18] <len-1304> That is my guess. There is supposed to be an X compat lib...
[23:18] <len-1304> but that will only work as well as the MIR devs feel like supporting.
[23:18] <zequence> Wonder what Valve will be using for their Steam console. I don't think it'll be MIR
[23:19] <zequence> The community can support MIR too, if they want
[23:19] <len-1304> No one wants to only be usable in one distro of unix
[23:19] <len-1304> *linux
[23:19] <zequence> Right now it seems most non Unity devs want to give Wayland a go as planned first
[23:20] <len-1304> yes. Once there is a good x/wayland meta to bounce off I don't know if there will be much community support/time/development left for MIR
[23:21] <len-1304> Mir would have to look like it had some advantage.
[23:22] <len-1304> Pretty hard to say about alpha SW
[23:23] <zequence> Valve will want top grade video drivers
[23:23] <len-1304> Ya with games you have to be as good or better than windows...
[23:24] <zequence> MIR I think will rely mostly on free drivers, and there was talk about integrating Android drivers
[23:24] <zequence> Wayland, I don't know how that works. I forget
[23:24] <len-1304> no one will pay for a game that runs slower than what they already have.
[23:24] <zequence> A lot of the main stream users will like to have nice graphics
[23:25] <len-1304> wayland is an extension/upgrade of X... it gets rid of some of the least used parts of the lib and adds the things that have been missing.
[23:26] <len-1304> It adds those non-used X calls back as a compatibility layer.
[23:27] <zequence> Valve will probably not need much anyway, as long as they get driver support
[23:27] <len-1304> It is a total redesign of X. Sort of a "if could start all over without worrying about supporting anyting out there now" kind of thing.
[23:29] <len-1304> It still seems to support server client  stuff... like the app on one machine and the display on another
[23:29] <len-1304> I am not sure MIR does that.
[23:31] <len-1304> I did some reading on both of them a while back
[23:35] <len-1304> Unity seems to take away many of the things that I have enjoyed about linux.
[23:53] <DarkEra> still no chance to log in
[23:53] <zequence> DarkEra: You need to set both keyboard and mouse as I explained earlier
[23:54] <zequence> kayboard is set from the main gui preferences, the mouse from the OS gui menu
[23:54] <DarkEra> zequence, i did that
[23:55] <zequence> Then I don't know :(
[23:56] <zequence> Might be best to install on a testing partition, and I'll need to set up a system for rolling back stuff
[23:56] <zequence> So, one doesn't need to install the OS over and over, just the meta