[11:20] <pjotr> Hello, I've encountered the following bug: In Xubuntu, resizing an application window of LibreOffice may cause display corruption. The solution is to install libreoffice-gtk, which fixes the problem.
[11:20] <pjotr> Can someone fix that, so that libreoffice-gtk will be pulled automatically upon installing (components of) LibreOffice in Xubuntu?
[11:21] <knome> mrpouit, micahg: ^
[13:57] <len-1304> ochosi, elfy, yes UbuntuStudio uses pavucontrol. We also have a wish list in for changes to the PA people :)
[13:59] <len-1304> pavucontrol is Studio's "desktop audio control" and aslo sometimes used with Jack. Some broadcast type applications require both.
[14:00] <elfy> thanks len-1304 - there was a conversation in -offtopic earlier with knome and zequence amongst others 
[14:00] <len-1304> For what it does pavucontrol is fine... not something we are likely to changing.
[14:01] <len-1304> Ah good. I am at the "late" end of the world.
[14:01] <elfy> :) 
[14:01] <len-1304> On my way out to work, bye now.
[14:02] <elfy> have fun if you can 
[17:14] <Germar> Hi,
[17:14] <Germar> Where can I report a bug with dbus that regards only xubuntu but not ubuntu?
[17:15] <Germar> It is about a timeout on dbus during import keyring in a python program running with sudo
[17:17] <Germar> I'm not sure if this is caused by the keyring or by dbus config.
[17:18] <Germar> All packages are the same version on ubuntu and xubuntu. I even tried to copy over the dbus config and root's home wihtout luck
[17:21] <Germar> to reproduce you can run 'sudo python'
[17:21] <Germar> import dbus
[17:22] <Germar> bus = dbus.SessionBus()
[17:22] <Germar> bus.get_object('org.freedesktop.secrets', '/org/freedesktop/secrets')
[17:40] <Germar> afk for ~30min
[19:54] <skellat> Here's where Lubuntu Core gets selected in lieu of Lubuntu when installing from mini.iso: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-05162013-035346pm.php
[19:55] <knome> mh
[19:56] <ochosi> skellat: looks good to me
[19:57] <knome> i would be more interested how the desktop installer separates those
[19:59] <ochosi> skellat: btw, if you find out the name of e.g. that HP-icon in your systray i can try to add a monochrome version for it to our icon-theme
[20:03] <knome> hello people
[20:03] <knome> who's here for the last of the three nights for xubuntu? raise your hand
[20:03] <knome> o/
[20:03] <skellat> o/
[20:04] <knome> #startmeeting Three nights of Xubuntu: Night 3
[20:04] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu May 16 20:04:00 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[20:04] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[20:04] <knome> #chair skellat 
[20:04] <meetingology> Current chairs: knome skellat
[20:04] <lderan> o/
[20:05] <pleia2> o/
[20:05] <elfy> o/
[20:05] <knome> We won't be having a Hangout today, and we've ran through all the items on the session blueprints, so the word and agenda are free: is there something else you'd like to discuss?
[20:05] <knome> #chair pleia2 elfy 
[20:05] <meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome pleia2 skellat
[20:05] <knome> #chair lderan 
[20:05] <meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome lderan pleia2 skellat
[20:05] <ochosi> o/
[20:05] <knome> #chair ochosi 
[20:05] <meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome lderan ochosi pleia2 skellat
[20:05] <knome> #topic Blog article about "Three Nights of Xubuntu"
[20:06] <knome> #info knome, skellat and pleia2 have put up an article about the two Xubuntu sessions to be posted on xubuntu.org
[20:07] <skellat> A last look by others prior to posting would be helpful, I presume.
[20:07] <knome> yes
[20:07] <knome> i will be pushing it to xubuntu.org today
[20:07] <knome> #info knome will move it to xubuntu.org today for reviewing
[20:07] <skellat> Do we have a link that can be shared to the current draft?
[20:07] <knome> not at the moment
[20:08] <knome> it's invite only, but i'll move it after the meeting, so it'll be accessible soon
[20:08] <skellat> OK
[20:08] <skellat> pleia2: Any thoughts as to the article?
[20:09] <pleia2> it's good
[20:09] <knome> i was wondering if we're pointing out too much that we're "in line" with other flavors
[20:09] <knome> it's brought up twice, and it got my attention
[20:11] <skellat> I'm iffy on that.  Yes, I wrote it.  I just felt at the time some strange need to show small-u unity.
[20:11] <knome> anyway, we can think about that when i've moved it to xubuntu.org
[20:11] <knome> #topic Xubuntu team members
[20:11] <knome> i propose to add skellat to xubuntu-team!
[20:11] <ochosi> +1
[20:12] <knome> imo other prospective contributors for memberships are lderan, jack fromm (docs guy) if they keep on contributing as they have done so far
[20:12] <lderan> i do plan on doing so
[20:12] <knome> that's great :)
[20:12] <elfy> :)
[20:13] <ochosi> sounds good to me
[20:13] <knome> otoh,  people who need to step up to keep their memberships are: GridCube, maddernick, Unit193
[20:14] <knome> Unit193 has been showing raised motivation though :)
[20:14] <Unit193> I have? :P
[20:14] <ochosi> (sounds a bit like the "tip-of-the-hat – wag-of-my-finger segment of stephen colbert, for those that know it)
[20:14] <knome> (just speak up more often and don't think it's unnecessary!)
[20:14] <ochosi> +1
[20:14] <knome> i'm thinking this also because...
[20:14] <elfy> I'd +1 that as well - but then I'd be saying too much :)
[20:14] <Unit193> Yeah, that part...
[20:15] <knome> #topic Strategy Document reviewing
[20:15] <knome> i discussed it with various members in the team, and we all thought it would be more appropriate to have xubuntu-team voting the new XPL, not xubuntu-users
[20:16] <knome> #action [knome] Rewrite the XPL voting part in the SD for the team to review and vote on: TODO
[20:16] <meetingology> ACTION: [knome] Rewrite the XPL voting part in the SD for the team to review and vote on: TODO
[20:17] <knome> (sorry for being lazy and using the work item syntax directly....)
[20:17] <knome> #chair Unit193 
[20:17] <meetingology> Current chairs: Unit193 elfy knome lderan ochosi pleia2 skellat
[20:17] <knome> (if you want to start a new topic, just say "#topic New topic" so it's added to the minutes)
[20:18] <knome> (those who aren't in the chairs list, poke one of the chairs first to add you)
[20:18] <skellat> #topic UDS Day 3 Community Roundtable's Discussion Assessing vUDS Structure
[20:18] <skellat> #info skellat was present in capacity as a LoCo leader. (SEE ALSO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dF-5Ba4ApgA)
[20:18] <skellat> #info Discussion ensued among those present as to the hours and nature of the meetings.
[20:19] <skellat> #info Laura Czajkowski raised the issue of seemingly fewer women attending.
[20:19] <skellat> #info Randall Ross asked that weekend hours be considered to better accommodate potential participants.
[20:19] <skellat> #info skellat noted that Xubuntu was holding a parallel set of meeting hours to accommodate divergent available hours as well as to include members across Asia and the Pacific.
[20:19] <knome> +1
[20:19] <skellat> #info At this time Jono's group is reviewing how the second virtual UDS has run and we may or may not see further changes by the next anticipated sessions in August 2013.  Time zone shifting was discussed as a possibility to better accommodate Asia/Pacific and Eastern Europe.
[20:19] <skellat> #idea It is recommended that we consider our actions during the May 2013 UDS timeframe and assess how we might utilize our current experience in holding further computer-mediated team sessions during the Saucy Salamander cycle.
[20:19] <knome> was there any discussion about a possible real-life uds?
[20:19] <skellat> Nope
[20:20] <skellat> I did raise the point that in-person discussion works better
[20:20] <skellat> That point really didn't go anywhere
[20:20] <knome> it's weird that they give out that recommendation now - as if they had already decided that they'll keep with the virtual meetings
[20:20] <skellat> Oh, that's my recommendation
[20:20] <knome> oh, ok :)
[20:21] <ochosi> i'm also wondering whether we should do hangouts more often as a team...
[20:21] <knome> then nvm me.
[20:21] <knome> ochosi, +1 now and then
[20:21] <skellat> knome: It is okay
[20:21] <Noskcaj> ochosi, +1
[20:21] <knome> but preparation should be better then
[20:21] <ochosi> yup
[20:21] <elfy> ochosi: might be good - I'd maybe even get a mic ... 
[20:21]  * ochosi admits he was poorly prepared...
[20:21] <knome> or we should have a clear agenda with people marked running each item
[20:21] <skellat> Randall Ross was a big proponent of trying to get people together in groups to participate to leverage further the upper limit on available Google Hangout sessions
[20:21] <Unit193> ochosi: So was I.
[20:21] <ochosi> knome: +1 on clear agenda with assignees
[20:22] <knome> life got in the way for me too, but of course that's not a good reason to not be prepared
[20:22] <ochosi> that could help with preparation
[20:22] <elfy> +1 to that from me as well 
[20:22] <knome> it was slightly scary too when people were so quiet on night 1 that lyz needed to tell us to say something
[20:22] <ochosi> assignees could 1) quickly sum up the topic (for those who didn't prepare ;)) and then 2) propose their $whatever and then 3) we could commonly discuss
[20:22] <elfy> I did try to speak up :p
[20:22] <elfy> ochosi: +1
[20:23] <skellat> Need a Vuvuzela for moments when silence reigns
[20:23] <knome> and tbh... 20UTC is not ideal for me at all
[20:23] <ochosi> skellat: +100
[20:23] <knome> haha
[20:23] <elfy> knome: too late?
[20:23] <ochosi> skellat: haven't heard those evil things in such a long time :]
[20:23] <knome> elfy, yeah, it's 11pm here and i'm worried about speaking too loud
[20:23] <knome> also, if wife has morning shifts the next day.. not good either.
[20:23] <Unit193> knome: Do note that text meetings are far better to catch up on when you missed them.
[20:23] <elfy> I understand - I'd be the same - little one is in bed directly above me 
[20:24] <skellat> Partly timing comes down to compromises.
[20:24] <knome> Unit193, definitely, especially if we are taking notes as poorly as we did this time
[20:24] <elfy> to some extent skellat 
[20:24] <ochosi> Unit193: yeah, agreed to that
[20:24] <knome> definitely, but otoh, we should make sure the people that are essential to any given item should be able to join the session
[20:25] <Unit193> (I'm thinking this because much earlier wouldn't work nearly as well.)
[20:25] <elfy> that's logical 
[20:25] <skellat> knome: Jono discussed that a bit and noted how he's up at 1 AM and 6 AM in California for Ubuntu-related meetings
[20:25] <knome> i'm saying that if all artwork people are based in europe, we probably should have an artwork-related meeting at a suitable time for the european participants
[20:25] <elfy> for me - and probably only me this time is perfect
[20:25] <Unit193> elfy: Nope, great here.
[20:25] <lderan> its not too bad for me as well
[20:25] <knome> skellat, being up at 1am or 4am isn't a problem for me really.
[20:26] <elfy> knome: +1 - but it needs proper notes for those elsewhere to be able to read
[20:26] <knome> skellat, it's external things that make the times bad for me
[20:26] <skellat> knome: Understood
[20:26] <knome> elfy, we did do proper notes... after the meeting
[20:26] <elfy> yea - I'm just saying :)
[20:26] <knome> the point is that it might be hard to follow the meetings if taking notes at meeting time was bad
[20:27] <Noskcaj> for me, i'm awake 2000UTC-1100UTC
[20:27] <elfy> knome: I agree - maybe if we're having a hangout type - someone who's ont so involved in discussion can do note taking
[20:27] <elfy> s/ont/not
[20:27] <ochosi> yeah, or a person without a microphone ;)
[20:27] <lderan> I'm available 1900~2300 UTC
[20:27] <knome> elfy, otoh it's hard to do that if you're not too involved either
[20:28] <elfy> all you need do is be listening :)
[20:28] <knome> sure
[20:28] <elfy> ochosi: I was that man ... 
[20:28]  * ochosi is definitely totally not looking at elfy when he says that
[20:28] <knome> i'm bad at that... ;)
[20:28] <ochosi> ok, knome doesn't do note-taking, cause he sucks
[20:28] <Unit193> elfy: I was almost. :P
[20:28] <ochosi> ;)
[20:28] <knome> i mean, i'm bad at listening to something and being really focused if i can't participate
[20:28] <elfy> I can do that knome 
[20:29] <knome> i'm good at remembering most things from a 1 hour meeting though if i have any agenda
[20:29] <knome> i barely take any notes from meetings with clients either
[20:29] <elfy> lol
[20:29] <ochosi> yeah, i think having a clear agenda and assignees should also ease note-taking though
[20:29] <knome> definitely
[20:29] <elfy> ochosi: +1
[20:29] <knome> the assignees could even handle the note taking for their own items
[20:29] <lderan> ochosi, +1
[20:29] <elfy> but - I'd not want to see hangouts take over from IRC meetings though
[20:30] <knome> that way nobody would need to just sit in the corner and shut down.
[20:30] <ochosi> oh, and may i add: this is the most verbose irc-meeting in quite a while, and i dare say it's not unrelated to the hangouts...
[20:30] <elfy> maybe once every 6 weeks or so 
[20:30] <Noskcaj> on another topic (i'm not a chair yet), Should we try having LSC in for this release?
[20:30] <knome> ochosi, probably, and also because we had our last irc meeting in january or sth.
[20:30] <elfy> gives me time to not eat for a day or so and but a mic ... so ochosi stops bullying me :D
[20:30] <knome> Noskcaj, let's get to that once we've finished with this item
[20:30] <ochosi> Noskcaj: in the lubuntu meetings it is currently discussed to drop it
[20:31] <skellat> Any further discussion as to UDS status?
[20:31] <knome> if we have a meeting every two weeks, a hangout every 6 weeks sounds about right
[20:31] <ochosi> elfy: before you do that PM me your address and i'll mail you one ;)
[20:31] <elfy> lol
[20:31] <skellat> #topic Inclusion of Lubuntu Software Center
[20:32] <elfy> hang on skellat 
[20:32] <knome> skellat, heh, okay :)
[20:32] <knome> one more thing
[20:32] <elfy> knome: that sounds good to me 
[20:32] <skellat> #undo
[20:32] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x324d110>
[20:32] <knome> #action [knome] Set up meeting schedule (IRC and Hangout meetings with vUDS in mind) and send to ML: TODO
[20:32] <meetingology> ACTION: [knome] Set up meeting schedule (IRC and Hangout meetings with vUDS in mind) and send to ML: TODO
[20:33] <knome> i'm fine with that item now.
[20:33] <ochosi> question wrt hangouts
[20:33] <ochosi> (sorry)
[20:33] <elfy> I'd say we need to get the first one pretty soon
[20:33] <knome> ochosi, yeah?
[20:33] <ochosi> what is our policy on keeping our meetings available on youtube
[20:33] <ochosi> some of us might have privacy concerns wrt keeping the meetings online/available "forever"
[20:33] <knome> i would say drop them soonish.
[20:33] <Unit193> ^
[20:33] <knome> we have the notes from those in the ML
[20:34] <elfy> I'd say not - we can put notes up in wiki 
[20:34] <ochosi> yeah, that's what i was hoping
[20:34] <ochosi> but i'm also saying that wrt future hangouts
[20:34] <knome> yes
[20:34] <ochosi> wondering whether we should even stream them to youtube...
[20:34] <knome> probably not
[20:34] <ochosi> (or if we do, drop them immediately afterwards)
[20:34] <knome> unless we have participants that can't fo G+
[20:34] <knome> yes, definitely
[20:34] <elfy> I don't see a need - if we're in IRC as well - people can ask there 
[20:34] <knome> do we want to set a deadline when we drop the vUDS videos?
[20:34] <skellat> #idea Consider retention policy for hangouts on YouTube compared to the retention policy for IRC logs?
[20:35] <Unit193> I'd say stream them, and keep them for a week.
[20:35] <knome> i'm proposing dropping vUDS videos week after the meeting, other videos as soon as we've done.
[20:35] <knome> err, we're
[20:35] <elfy> till the next meeting? 
[20:35] <lderan> sounds good
[20:35] <skellat> Keep video at least until next meeting
[20:35] <knome> elfy, i'm most probably proposing and meeting every two weeks
[20:36] <knome> s/and/a/
[20:36] <elfy> so if we had hangout today, IRC in fortnight - drop the youtube on the day we next meet? 
[20:36] <ochosi> until next meeting would mean keeping the yt-video for 6 weeks?
[20:36] <skellat> elfy: +1
[20:36] <elfy> I guessed a fortnigjt :)
[20:36] <knome> i would simply say...
[20:36] <ochosi> (with hangouts every 6 weeks)
[20:36] <elfy> ochosi: no the next meeting - not the next hangout 
[20:36] <knome> one week. period.
[20:37] <elfy> I'll sit on the fence on that then :)
[20:37] <ochosi> yeah, i'm kinda on knome's side here, if we take notes anyway, what are the videos good for?
[20:37] <knome> but that's of course open for discussion
[20:37] <pleia2> whynot keep it forever?
[20:37] <knome> i would even say only the vUDS-timed videos need to be up after the sessions
[20:37] <ochosi> what about re-evaluating that after the next hangouts?
[20:37] <pleia2> keeping it forever is easy (default), removing it takes effort and I don't know the value
[20:37] <knome> pleia2, privacy concerns, eg. some ugly monkeys don't want their face showing up forever in youtube
[20:37] <pleia2> boo
[20:37] <knome> (^ i'm referring to myself)
[20:37]  * ochosi feels like an ugly monkey now
[20:38] <elfy> why do you think I've no web cam ... :p
[20:38] <pleia2> ochosi: you're lovely :) and not a lego
[20:38] <lderan> take them off youtube and host them somewhere else maybe?
[20:38] <knome> we should've had a hangout for this so i could've seen simon's face when i said that!
[20:38] <ochosi> elfy: ok, in that case i'll also mail you a camera
[20:38] <elfy> ha ha ha 
[20:38] <knome> i don't think the problem is youtube
[20:38] <ochosi> :)
[20:38] <knome> it's rather just keeping the videos up
[20:38] <ochosi> yeah
[20:38] <Unit193> knome: Ugly monkey?  That feels directed...
[20:39] <elfy> I don't really see a need if the notes are good enough to keep the video up 
[20:39] <knome> i don't want a policy that says "if you don't want to show up in a video, don't join the hangout" either.
[20:39] <skellat> Unit193: I thought it was a reference to the new Google Plus layout
[20:39] <pleia2> I think we benefit from the internet having too much stuff on it ;) who will ever actually go dig these up ever again who isn't us?
[20:39] <knome> pleia2, employers?
[20:39] <ochosi> pleia2: imagine you say something stupid or look bored and future employers confront you at the job interview "you always looked so bored in the meetings!" imagine that!
[20:39] <knome> haha!
[20:39] <elfy> I just thought that keeping till the next meeting was a good compromise
[20:39] <knome> yes!
[20:39] <pleia2> if an employer is going to go scan through hours of UDS videos to find something to pick apart, I don't really want to work for them
[20:39] <pleia2> that's strange and creepy
[20:39] <elfy> lol
[20:39] <pleia2> (and unlikely)
[20:39] <knome> i can't see the added value of meeting videos being up after the meeting as long as we have notes
[20:40] <knome> notes are easier and faster to go through
[20:40] <ochosi> pleia2: yeah, but the vUDS videos are different from regular meetings imo
[20:40] <lderan> indeed they are
[20:40] <skellat> pleia2: It may be strange & creepy...but it is the new normal for HR.  That and all those bloody eHarmony-style personality tests that are being required these days.
[20:40] <pleia2> saying stupid things on mailing lists is much more likely and searchable
[20:40] <elfy> how about we see how good the notes are - if they are as good as IRC logs - that's enough
[20:40] <lderan> those are a pain skellat 
[20:40] <pleia2> ochosi: ours aren't vUDS videos
[20:40] <knome> and hangouts are going to be like "... *silence* .... (lyz:) say something" anyway
[20:40] <pleia2> ochosi: ours are on my private youtube, not linked to other vUDS things
[20:40] <pleia2> since ours aren't official sessions
[20:40] <knome> pleia2, still.
[20:41] <ochosi> pleia2: hmright.
[20:41] <pleia2> well, official for us, not official for UDS
[20:41] <Unit193> Lyz: say something!  Unit193: Something.
[20:41] <pleia2> :)
[20:41] <knome> yeah, like that
[20:41] <elfy> ha ha ha 
[20:41] <ochosi> we can always have a vote on that...
[20:41] <knome> do you think that looks good on any of us?
[20:41] <knome> i veto.
[20:41] <pleia2> heh
[20:41] <elfy> I was fine knome :p
[20:41] <ochosi> knome: you _veto_ against voting? :p
[20:41] <skellat> Compared to how that job interview went on Night 1, the hangout sounds like it would have been a better use of time
[20:41] <lderan> oh dear
[20:42] <knome> skellat, that can be said of the part before ochosi joined, unfortunately
[20:42] <knome> it was about the developer involvement
[20:42] <knome> and no developers were around
[20:42] <elfy> ochosi: I think you're right - we should just vote and be done with it :)
[20:42] <knome> nobody had anything to say, it had been beaten up in the blueprints already
[20:42] <ochosi> elfy: yeah, this is starting to take up too much time...
[20:42] <pleia2> I want to link the youtube videos to my blog post about UDS :( must keep forever!
[20:43] <elfy> ochosi: it's because we're trying to catch up on what didn't get said over the last 2 days :)
[20:43]  * Noskcaj doesn't see why you need them taken down.
[20:43] <knome> Noskcaj, you didn't have a camera.
[20:43] <ochosi> pleia2: but wouldn't an edited summary or something be nicer? i mean do you really want ppl to think that our meetings are lame and quiet (especially those that hit "close" after two minutes)?
[20:43] <pleia2> ochosi: ours really aren't that bad
[20:43] <Noskcaj> knome, i wasn't allowed a camera, my brother owns the only one in the house and said no
[20:43] <pleia2> plenty of uds sessions are like ours
[20:43] <skellat> ochosi: Better than most school board & city council meetings around here
[20:44] <knome> #vote YouTube videos of Hangouts: Keep forever (+1) or not (-1)   (only those who had a camera can vote)
[20:44] <meetingology> Please vote on: YouTube videos of Hangouts: Keep forever (+1) or not (-1)   (only those who had a camera can vote)
[20:44] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[20:44] <ochosi> pleia2: hm, have never watched any uds sessions
[20:44] <knome> -1
[20:44] <meetingology> -1 received from knome
[20:44] <Unit193> -1
[20:44] <meetingology> -1 received from Unit193
[20:44] <skellat> +1
[20:44] <meetingology> +1 received from skellat
[20:44] <ochosi> -1
[20:44] <meetingology> -1 received from ochosi
[20:44] <lderan> -1
[20:44] <meetingology> -1 received from lderan
[20:44] <pleia2> keeping them up increases project transparency, I don't like the idea of having secret meetings of hangouts and fully public meetings of irc
[20:44] <pleia2> +1
[20:44] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[20:45] <knome> pleia2, we will still have the meeting notes. and we can have the videos on your HDD to be sent by email if somebody wants to "check" things out.
[20:45] <pleia2> (I probably won't feel comfortable participating in hangouts if they're private)
[20:45] <Noskcaj> -1
[20:45] <meetingology> -1 received from Noskcaj
[20:45] <Noskcaj> oops, +1
[20:45] <Noskcaj> +1
[20:45] <meetingology> +1 received from Noskcaj
[20:45] <Unit193> pleia2: I understand that, but I'm the reverse.  (In that case, you being present is more important.)
[20:45] <knome> is that everybody?
[20:45] <ochosi> pleia2: i wouldn't mind voting on this again after we have a bit more "experience" with hangouts, would that be ok for you?
[20:45] <elfy> I didn't have a camera :)
[20:45] <elfy> but as I will 
[20:46] <pleia2> Unit193: no one is more important (except knome prolly)
[20:46] <elfy> -1
[20:46] <meetingology> -1 received from elfy
[20:46] <knome> #endvote
[20:46] <meetingology> Voting ended on: YouTube videos of Hangouts: Keep forever (+1) or not (-1)   (only those who had a camera can vote)
[20:46] <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:5 Abstentions:0
[20:46] <meetingology> Motion denied
[20:46] <knome> so, next vote
[20:46] <skellat> #vote Shall the Nights of Xubuntu videos be allowed to archived by a member of the Community Council outside of remaining on YouTube?
[20:46] <meetingology> Please vote on: Shall the Nights of Xubuntu videos be allowed to archived by a member of the Community Council outside of remaining on YouTube?
[20:46] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[20:46] <knome> oh, okay
[20:46] <knome> +1
[20:46] <meetingology> +1 received from knome
[20:46] <elfy> +1
[20:46] <meetingology> +1 received from elfy
[20:46] <pleia2> ochosi: that's fine, but I really don't feel comfortable participating unless they are kept public
[20:46] <skellat> +1
[20:46] <meetingology> +1 received from skellat
[20:46] <ochosi> wait, what would that be good for?
[20:46] <knome> skellat, just for clarification, does that include pleia2 ?
[20:46] <lderan> +1
[20:46] <meetingology> +1 received from lderan
[20:46] <knome> ochosi, if somebody wants to "check something out"
[20:46] <skellat> knome: Yep.
[20:47] <knome> ok
[20:47] <knome> "then -1"
[20:47] <knome> (just kidding)
[20:47] <Unit193> +0
[20:47] <meetingology> +0 received from Unit193
[20:47] <ochosi> +0
[20:47] <meetingology> +0 received from ochosi
[20:47] <skellat> I would much rather have them be still accessible even if not accessible via YouTube
[20:47] <elfy> if someone complains we can always revisit it 
[20:47] <knome> #endvote
[20:47] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Shall the Nights of Xubuntu videos be allowed to archived by a member of the Community Council outside of remaining on YouTube?
[20:47] <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
[20:47] <meetingology> Motion carried
[20:48] <knome> i have anohter.
[20:48] <knome> *another
[20:48] <knome> #vote Keep videos of Hangouts up for a limited time (+1) or delete directly after the session has ended (-1)? Everbody can vote.
[20:48] <meetingology> Please vote on: Keep videos of Hangouts up for a limited time (+1) or delete directly after the session has ended (-1)? Everbody can vote.
[20:48] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[20:48] <ochosi> pleia2: at least atm i'm not sure i'd feel comfortable with having all those meeting videos in a publicly accessible place, that'd at least lead to me having my webcam switched off (i don't have that lego-avatar for nothing, after all)
[20:49] <ochosi> -1
[20:49] <meetingology> -1 received from ochosi
[20:49] <elfy> +1
[20:49] <meetingology> +1 received from elfy
[20:49] <lderan> +1
[20:49] <meetingology> +1 received from lderan
[20:49] <knome> that was a stupid vote.
[20:49] <skellat> +1 -- Gotta have time in case somebody is late to the meeting to catch up
[20:49] <meetingology> +1 -- Gotta have time in case somebody is late to the meeting to catch up received from skellat
[20:49] <knome> -1 generally; +1 for vUDS-related
[20:49] <meetingology> -1 generally; +1 for vUDS-related received from knome
[20:49] <Unit193> +1
[20:49] <meetingology> +1 received from Unit193
[20:50] <elfy> now I'm justconfused ... 
[20:50] <knome> elfy, lol!
[20:50] <elfy> -1 
[20:50] <meetingology> -1 received from elfy
[20:50] <ochosi> would be good to announce votes before just starting them ;)
[20:50] <elfy> that's me at 0 then 
[20:50] <ochosi> announce and explain
[20:50] <knome> elfy, then say +0
[20:50] <elfy> that should really be 2 seperate thinsg 
[20:50] <elfy> +0
[20:50] <meetingology> +0 received from elfy
[20:51] <knome> elfy, i know. i just realized.
[20:51] <Unit193> In case someone missed the meeting, but wants to review.
[20:51] <elfy> start again then :)
[20:51] <knome> Unit193, notes.
[20:51] <Unit193> Yes, but not always good enough.
[20:51] <knome> then make the notes better
[20:51] <knome> #endvote
[20:51] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Keep videos of Hangouts up for a limited time (+1) or delete directly after the session has ended (-1)? Everbody can vote.
[20:51] <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:2 Abstentions:1
[20:51] <meetingology> Motion carried
[20:52] <knome> i mean, meh
[20:52] <knome> let's rewind
[20:52] <knome> do we want to have official hangouts at all if it's this hard?
[20:52] <knome> want to vote on that, or discuss?
[20:53] <Unit193> I don't think it exactly needed a vote, everyone seemed to be good to do them.
[20:53] <ochosi> hmpf, i was actually generally in favor of hangouts, but i guess i opened a can of worms with mentioning privacy concerns...
[20:53] <ochosi> brb
[20:53] <knome> Unit193, well as ochosi said, didn't need back then but now...
[20:53] <elfy> personally I see the value in a face to face thing - but I can understand if people have privacy concerns 
[20:54] <skellat> #action skellat, as a professionally-trained librarian, to assist pleia2 with archiving Nights of Xubuntu in such manner as pleia2 deems fit after the in-meeting vote
[20:54] <meetingology> ACTION: skellat, as a professionally-trained librarian, to assist pleia2 with archiving Nights of Xubuntu in such manner as pleia2 deems fit after the in-meeting vote
[20:54] <knome> so...
[20:54] <pleia2> I don't really want to be a part of this archiving process
[20:54] <skellat> #undo
[20:54] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x35e9110>
[20:54] <pleia2> so you'll have to use someone else's youtube account
[20:54] <elfy> perhaps if the 2 weekly ones were not kept and the vUDS ones were - people can just do audio if they don't like the idea of being 'seen' 
[20:55] <knome> me neither, but i wanted to offer a compromise for deleting forever
[20:55] <pleia2> (it's bad enough that we're using a proprietary tool for all of this, I don't want to be a part of a process that further closes access to these resources)
[20:55] <knome> i think i would be fine with audio-only recording in public foreverish
[20:56] <lderan> as would i
[20:56] <skellat> Mostly for archiving it would involve grabbing said videos, storing them away from YouTube, and making them available as others require.
[20:56]  * Noskcaj is back from mustering sheep
[20:56] <elfy> I see no need to be getting into archiving - the notes should be enough
[20:56] <knome> skellat, i think that's just silly for what xubuntu is
[20:57] <skellat> I don't like the idea either but it preserve access to it, however minimal, even if I have to burn a DVD and mail it to somebody
[20:57] <elfy> overkill imo
[20:57] <knome> pleia2, would you vote against hangouts at all then, or would you be fine with some kind of socializing hangouts that aren't public?
[20:58] <pleia2> knome: I'm not going to participate in them unless they're public
[20:58] <knome> to help with communication (which was the point of hangouts anyway), but not to specifically discuss xubuntu-related issues
[20:58] <pleia2> I'm not trying to be difficult here, it just feels very wrong as an open source project, I don't like it and don't feel it's fair
[20:58] <knome> i understand
[20:58] <elfy> then we should do as we did before 
[20:59] <elfy> meet here and use meetingology 
[20:59] <knome> i like the point that ochosi had about making communication more natural
[20:59] <Unit193> Sadly, seems so.
[20:59] <knome> (not just during the hangouts, but also after)
[21:00] <elfy> nothing to stop people doing so outside of meeting 
[21:00] <knome> but i would be uncomfortable with "private" social hangouts as well if some of the people were uncomfortable joining them
[21:00] <pleia2> there are subtleties and assumptions when having a natural video discussion that don't transfer well into notes, and you won't get full background as to why things are decided by raw notes that don't have details
[21:00] <elfy> pleia2: that might well be the case - but then that invalidates any meeting that happened before :)
[21:00] <knome> pleia2, i understand if you still don't want to, but would the hangouts be fine if nothing was "decided" on them?
[21:01] <knome> pleia2, if it was clearly social
[21:01] <elfy> I don't see why audio only is an issue 
[21:01] <Unit193> A #xubuntu-offtopic hangout rather than #xubuntu-devel.
[21:01] <pleia2> knome: so we already have private conversations sometimes about things
[21:01] <pleia2> even project things
[21:01] <pleia2> I think it's fine for people to do a hangout privately to collect thoughts and discuss things
[21:02] <knome> elfy, i suppose one can argue that part of the communication is lost in the process
[21:02] <pleia2> just when it comes to presenting things to the community for a decision, community discussion, etc - we need all rationale and explaining out there in full, forever
[21:02] <elfy> knome: less so than IRC 
[21:02] <knome> pleia2, i see, but that doesn't build up the community as a whole
[21:02] <knome> elfy, sure, but in the case of IRC meetings everybody "loses" the subleties.
[21:02] <pleia2> what doesn't?
[21:03] <knome> pleia2, having private one-on-one hangouts
[21:03] <pleia2> no, it would be disappointing to me to see things move from here to private hangouts
[21:03] <pleia2> I don't want to *encourage* them ;)
[21:03] <knome> pleia2, that too.
[21:03] <skellat> I do find it odd that we want to quickly nuke video yet the proceedings of this IRC channel are preserved forever over at irclogs.ubuntu.com
[21:03] <pleia2> but if people want to knock through some debugging or testing of stuff together on a hangout, whatever
[21:03] <pleia2> skellat: right, that's my point
[21:04] <pleia2> right now we have a great system of transparency and keep-logs-forever
[21:04] <pleia2> moving some meetings to hangouts that get deleted is :(
[21:04] <Unit193> skellat: I don't like that either, and that's part of the reason I avoid this channel.  I randomly avoid the support channels as well.
[21:04] <elfy> I don't see what's so hard to understand about people not wanting their face out there forever 
[21:04] <knome> then we should simply keep the meetings in IRC
[21:05] <knome> i'm personally fine if we decided to keep the UDS sessions up forever, but i can empathize with others on their privacy issuses
[21:05] <elfy> is my view as well 
[21:06] <pleia2> elfy: I understand, but you have to balance privacy issues with being a part of a global project that values transparency
[21:06] <knome> pleia2, we went wrong with that by not discussing these kinds of things before the first hangouts
[21:06] <pleia2> knome: indeed
[21:07] <pleia2> I've been doing Ubuntu on-air stuff for over a year, didn't even think that anyone would have a problem with it :(
[21:07] <pleia2> (or at least they'd do what elfy did and not do voice+video if they were uncomfortable with it)
[21:07] <elfy> indeed - my point is that if it's good enough to be audio only for Ubuntu then it should be good enough for us 
[21:08] <knome> pleia2, what's your stance on audio-only preserving?
[21:08] <elfy> "Where people are uncomfortable joining a hangout, and want to do that in audio only then that is fine" 
[21:08] <skellat> Nothing says we have to stick with Google Hangouts.  We can always go to Mumble and deposit the audio with Archive.org.  
[21:08] <knome> most definitely
[21:08] <knome> and we can decide not to do non-IRC meetings as well if that's the consensus
[21:09] <elfy> I hasten to add that I really don't have mic or camera and if I had then you'd have heard me and seen me 
[21:09] <Noskcaj> no-one did anything that requires video, but that may change in the future. we might have to decide after each meeting
[21:09] <skellat> yofel has a server we could use, we could use Hacker Public Radio's server and have our sessions really made available to a wide audience, and we could set up ourselves too.
[21:09] <pleia2> audio only is fine as long as we don't mind not knowing who is talking :)
[21:09] <knome> Noskcaj, no, *before* each meeting.
[21:09] <pleia2> elfy: ah, see I assumed it was a privacy thing :)
[21:09] <Unit193> knome: It actually is harder to understand your spoken word without seeing you.
[21:09] <elfy> pleia2: it is - but not so much for me 
[21:10] <pleia2> I assumed the same with Unit193 not showing his name/video too, it was surprising to see his face the 2nd day!
[21:10] <knome> pleia2, it probably is... but otoh, there wasn't privacy concerns because we didn't communicate it clearly enough how we would proceed with the streaming.
[21:10] <Unit193> pleia2: Couldn't the first, kept turning it off the second.
[21:10] <knome> pleia2, he was already in in the testing session on night 0 !
[21:10] <pleia2> knome: yeah, I just assumed everyone was familiar with ubuntu on air stuff because it's been around for a while now
[21:11] <knome> pleia2, tbh i kind of am, but i didn't think of the privacy concerns before today.
[21:11] <knome> pleia2, i mean, in the case of the xubuntu sessions.
[21:11] <pleia2> and I'm the wrong one to ask about privacy, anyone in the world can easily get my home address
[21:11] <pleia2> and know where I am at any given moment
[21:12] <pleia2> princessleia.com/where \o/
[21:12] <Noskcaj> someone ping me when we change topic, this is getting repetitive.
[21:12] <knome> mine as well, and if you happen to know my real name (not really hard to find out either), you can't be mistaken of the person. i'm the only one of me around.
[21:12] <knome> (of my name)
[21:12] <elfy> :)
[21:12]  * knome looks where pleia2 is
[21:12] <knome> "oh, USA"
[21:12] <skellat> I actually have a cousin with a different middle name in Florida who is a knucklehead
[21:12] <knome> :]
[21:13] <knome> meh.
[21:13] <skellat> But yeah, my home address is easily found through voter records in Ohio which are just a downloadable CSV file
[21:13] <knome> should we talk about the 3NoX sessions specifically?
[21:13] <ochosi> (nox=night in latin)
[21:14] <knome> ochosi, i know! :)
[21:14] <knome> what are we going to do what we have now
[21:14] <knome> then consider how we want to proceed
[21:14] <knome> (we can even schedule one complete meeting for that)
[21:14] <knome> s/proceed/proceed with session recordings in the future/
[21:14] <skellat> Status Quo pending further discussion
[21:15] <knome> let's make this easy.
[21:15] <knome> ochosi, how long are you comfortable the session being up?
[21:15] <knome> Unit193, how long are you comfortable the session being up?
[21:16] <ochosi> i was assuming it would go away after the meetings over, and i still don't see the use of keeping it up if we have notes
[21:16] <Unit193> knome: As in, how long would I like to keep them up?  I would like them off in two weeks, but I could do with the saucy cycle I suppose.
[21:16] <knome> ochosi, that isn't really an answer for my question 
[21:16] <ochosi> but whatever, if you wanna keep it up for a certain while, i don't feel like being the grinch
[21:16] <knome> i think this is a good start
[21:17] <knome> would it be a viable option to keep sessions up for the whole cycle?
[21:17] <ochosi> more felt like the beginning of the end for hangouts
[21:17] <knome> pleia2? is that open enough?
[21:17] <knome> i mean, people could refer to the sessions as long as we were developing the release we're talking about..
[21:17] <pleia2> knome: this time ;)
[21:17] <knome> ...items need to be taken up again anyway after a release
[21:17] <knome> pleia2, and in the future?
[21:18] <pleia2> if people are ok with it, maybe next UDS we tell them to turn off their camera if they're not comfy
[21:18] <lderan> that sounds fair
[21:18] <knome> in that case i don't think i'm comfortable in having hangouts, tbh
[21:18] <knome> being in G+ is giving a hardish time for me anyway.
[21:18] <skellat> *snort* The feed for Randall Ross failed in one session this morning so all you saw was a generic G+ avatar with him talking
[21:18] <pleia2> yeah, real name policy there and all
[21:18] <elfy> shall we shelve this for the moment? 
[21:19] <pleia2> I don't love G+ for that
[21:19] <pleia2> elfy: wise
[21:19] <elfy> let people think some more and revisit it 
[21:19] <skellat> If I didn't have to maintain my LoCo's G+ Page, I wouldn't even be using it
[21:19] <knome> well i suppose we have a plan for the 3NoX: keep the sessions up for the saucy cycle, then make them private
[21:20] <knome> i will be downloading them to my harddrive for archiving as well, so we can check things if we need to.
[21:20] <pleia2> ok
[21:20] <Unit193> So, we're technically going against the vote.
[21:20] <elfy> appears so 
[21:20] <knome> Unit193, it wasn't technically a wise vote...
[21:20] <knome> i mean, how it was set up
[21:21] <skellat> Hold a quickie vote to ratify what we've done now and overrule the previous?
[21:21] <knome> i don't think we have a choice here
[21:21] <knome> sure.
[21:21] <skellat> Besides, I'm having a hard enough time searching for the second night's video in YouTube as it is
[21:21] <knome> #vote Should we keep the 3NoX session recordings up for the Saucy cycle (+1) or delete them instantly (-1) ?
[21:21] <meetingology> Please vote on: Should we keep the 3NoX session recordings up for the Saucy cycle (+1) or delete them instantly (-1) ?
[21:21] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[21:21] <knome> skellat, just look at the mailing list :)
[21:22] <knome> +1
[21:22] <meetingology> +1 received from knome
[21:22] <Unit193> +0
[21:22] <meetingology> +0 received from Unit193
[21:22] <pleia2> +1
[21:22] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[21:22] <lderan> +0
[21:22] <meetingology> +0 received from lderan
[21:22] <elfy> +0
[21:22] <meetingology> +0 received from elfy
[21:22] <skellat> +1
[21:22] <meetingology> +1 received from skellat
[21:22] <skellat> knome: It just shows how low discoverability is
[21:22] <knome> ochosi?
[21:22] <ochosi> -1
[21:22] <meetingology> -1 received from ochosi
[21:22] <knome> skellat, at the moment, but google will fix that
[21:23] <knome> if we end with a tie between +1 and 0, do you think the vote is still valid?
[21:23] <knome> people who voted +0, please specify with a few words.
[21:24] <knome> (if you wanted C. something else, or if you are just abstaining)
[21:24] <elfy> I was abstaining as, whether it's there forver or just 30 hours - I'm not there anyway 
[21:25] <knome> elfy, thanks.
[21:25] <elfy> so I need to really abstain
[21:25] <knome> Unit193, lderan?
[21:25] <knome> fair enough
[21:25] <Unit193> knome: I won't vote against it, but I can't exactly vote for it.
[21:26] <skellat> Unit193: Blank/spoiled ballot then?
[21:26] <lderan> abstained, I have no issues with my face being in the public domain. As long as there is an archive of the video somewhere im good
[21:26] <knome> (i just want to point out that we are in the 1,5 hour mark; and one couldn't say it's because we're not communicating all the time)
[21:26] <knome> #endvote
[21:26] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Should we keep the 3NoX session recordings up for the Saucy cycle (+1) or delete them instantly (-1) ?
[21:26] <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:3
[21:26] <meetingology> Motion carried
[21:27] <ochosi> ok folks, getting late here
[21:27]  * pleia2 causetrouble
[21:27] <knome> #agreed We will keep the 3NoX videos up for the Saucy cycle, then make them inaccessible in YouTube. This overrules the previous vote.
[21:27]  * knome hugs pleia2 
[21:27]  * pleia2 hugs
[21:27]  * skellat hugs pleia2
[21:27] <pleia2> hugs all around!
[21:27] <ochosi> hf hugging everyone and good night ;)
[21:27] <knome> #topic LSC
[21:27] <pleia2> woo uds
[21:27] <pleia2> :)
[21:27] <knome> nighty ochosi 
[21:27] <elfy> night ochosi 
[21:27] <knome> Noskcaj, ping
[21:27] <pleia2> night ochosi 
[21:27] <lderan> night ochosi 
[21:27] <Unit193> ochosi: Night, but I didn't hug.
[21:28] <knome> Unit193, puss och kram
[21:28] <ochosi> (and wrt LSC, don't forgtet to check whether lubuntu doesn't want to drop it)
[21:29] <Noskcaj> i think lubuntu are supporting it now, but need more devs. should i fetch phillw?
[21:29] <Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-software-center-team/light-software-center/trunk
[21:29] <knome> feel free to
[21:30] <elfy> brb
[21:31] <Unit193> I'd rather have Synaptic rather than LSC.  Now, would LSC be in addition to, or replacing USC?  One of the main features is paid applications, or so I hear.
[21:32] <knome> Unit193, i would imagine replacing. but we need to discuss the state of LSC first
[21:32] <pleia2> generally I prefer USC because we know that will be supported and maintained long-term
[21:33] <knome> yes, i think the biggest negative side in getting LSC would be needing to (co)maintain it
[21:33] <pleia2> (lubuntu is a small team and LSC does need work)
[21:33] <knome> that's not something we want
[21:33] <pleia2> yeah
[21:33] <Noskcaj> i use neither, but the fact LSC is far more lightweight better follows the project goals
[21:33] <elfy> back
[21:34] <knome> but i'm interested in hearing if LSC is becoming something more general maintained by some specific group (and not requiring maintenance from xubuntu's side)
[21:34] <skellat> I can't say I really use either USC or LSC.  I still mostly with aptitude and apt-offline.
[21:34] <knome> Noskcaj, goals yes, but not the means
[21:34] <pleia2> Noskcaj: I'd say project maturity is more important, and LSC needs work
[21:34] <knome> Noskcaj, or are you willing to spend your time on being the maintainer from xubuntu?
[21:35] <pleia2> it's a great effort and it's nice to see a team working on a lightweight alternative that's more friendly than synaptic, I just don't think it's where we need it to be
[21:35] <elfy> I'd not be +1 to replacing a thing that I know works fine like synaptic with lsc
[21:35] <knome> isn't there some recent development for synaptic as well? (Unit193?)
[21:36] <Unit193> knome: There has been some, yes.  For one thing, it's been ported to GTK3.
[21:36] <Noskcaj> knome, no, mostly because i'm not capable of it.
[21:36] <knome> we will probably need to discuss this in a more "serious" meeting, but what do you think generall of USC/synaptic and which we should have
[21:36] <pleia2> synaptic still launches with an "All" menu that starts with Amateur Radio, Communication, Communication (multiverse)... and it's not so pretty or intuitive :)
[21:37] <knome> Noskcaj, i wouldn't expect many would, even if they were capable, and while i'm not deciding on other peoples' time devoting, i wouldn't say it's the wises place to put developer effort in
[21:37] <pleia2> going through this list for a normal user is huge scary
[21:37] <Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/raring/+source/synaptic/+changelog little info here at least.
[21:37] <elfy> pleia2: but it's not so slow as to make me think it's hung 
[21:37] <pleia2> GObject Introspection data <--- that even scares me
[21:37] <knome> lol
[21:38] <pleia2> elfy: yeah, but if I gave this to my uncle he'd have no idea this is how you're supposed to install software
[21:38] <pleia2> it's some hacker tool or something
[21:38] <elfy> :)
[21:38] <knome> should we install synaptic *in addition* to USC?
[21:39] <Noskcaj> elfy, i doubt we'd replace synaptic with it.
[21:39] <elfy> knome: I don't think we need do that - if it's there those who prefer it can soon apt-get it 
[21:39] <knome> Noskcaj, we aren't shipping synaptic
[21:39] <elfy> I thought the issue was replacing usc with lsc
[21:40] <knome> yes
[21:40] <knome> or the question
[21:40] <elfy> yea 
[21:40] <knome> and my other question was if we wanted to add synaptic
[21:40] <Noskcaj> everyone adanced nough to use synaptic knows how to install it from the command line. and other users would not use it at all
[21:40] <elfy> my answer to that last one is ^^
[21:40] <knome> but i suppose people are too tired... so thanks!
[21:40] <knome> #endmeeting
[21:40] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May 16 21:40:59 2013 UTC.  
[21:40] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-05-16-20.04.moin.txt
[21:40] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-05-16-20.04.html
[21:41] <Noskcaj> knome, oops
[21:41] <knome> Noskcaj, np.
[21:41] <knome> Noskcaj, i did talk with phillw, and it sounded like they wanted xubuntu to seed LSC to get us comaintain it
[21:41] <elfy> was what I thought he was saying too 
[21:42] <knome> (he didn't specifically try to hide that, but he didn't explicitly state that eitehr)
[21:42] <Noskcaj> i was there knome.
[21:43] <knome> Noskcaj, yup. for the logs as well.
[21:44] <knome> i was also thinking if i discussed that with him on a PM, but it was documentation
[21:44] <Noskcaj> It would be a shame to lose LSC from lack of maintenance, but you guys are right with it's not ready yet
[21:45] <knome> i agree, but if even lubuntu doesn't think it's worth enough to maintain it... :/
[21:46] <Unit193> That was a long meeting...
[21:46] <phillw> present as summonsed :)
[21:46] <elfy> lol
[21:47] <elfy> hi phillw 
[21:47] <phillw> hiyas elfy :)
[21:52] <knome> i should take a note of the meeting log urls before they slide off the backscroll
[21:54] <elfy> good lord - I talked a lot - less than you but ... 
[21:54] <elfy> imagine what I'd belike with a mic - you'd have to mute me :p
[21:54] <Unit193> elfy: I did too much, too.
[21:54] <knome> lol
[21:54] <knome> Unit193, good good
[21:55] <Unit193> knome: I muted you when you walked away from one of the hangouts. :D
[21:55] <knome> Unit193, oh, didn't i do that myself?
[21:55] <knome> oops. :)
[21:58] <elfy> poor old matt symes has got wireless issues with the 13.10 bcwml update today in xubuntu 
[23:19] <knome> -team members: http://xubuntu.org/?p=1723&preview=true
[23:20] <knome> and editing should be open for everybody as usually. minor edits welcome without asking, for major edits please ask
[23:21] <pleia2> do we want to link to http://freedesktop.org/software/pulseaudio/pavucontrol/ ?
[23:21] <knome> not sure it's useful
[23:22] <pleia2> yeah maybe not
[23:22] <pleia2> read through, looks good
[23:22] <knome> it was an conscious decision to leave it out when i wrote the article
[23:22] <knome> s/an/a/
[23:22]  * pleia2 nods
[23:22] <knome> s/the article/the original article/ :)
[23:22] <pleia2> one other thing, do we want to link the HUD spec in case someone wants to take a peek?
[23:23] <knome> hmm... is there one?
[23:23] <pleia2> well, that rationale wiki page and stuff
[23:23] <knome> hmm. well that's written mostly becuase gridcube couldn't join us
[23:23] <pleia2> ah ok
[23:23] <knome> much like many of the comments on the blueprints
[23:24] <pleia2> gotcha
[23:24] <knome> we're not linking to the blueprints
[23:24] <knome> maybe we should
[23:24] <pleia2> ah, yeah probably should
[23:24] <pleia2> maybe at the bottom along with summaries
[23:25] <Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/XnhprZ2fr42yUvNQUQ5x/ it's a start, I'll continue.
[23:25] <knome> pleia2, yup
[23:25] <pleia2> Unit193: what's wrong with the ubuntu pastebin? :)
[23:25] <Unit193> pleia2: Many, many things.
[23:25] <pleia2> lol
[23:25] <Unit193> Worst I've seen yet.
[23:26] <knome> before anybody asks, i'm specifically not linking to the videos, but they are linked to in the summaries.
[23:26] <pleia2> yeah
[23:27] <knome> the blueprints are linked now
[23:27] <pleia2> looks good
[23:28] <knome> and Unit193's paste looks good too
[23:28] <knome> Unit193, will you eventually turn that into a merge request or shall i worry about getting it in via other methods?
[23:28] <phillw> knome: obviously I missed the discussion.. was a decision made on using LSC in xubuntu?
[23:29] <Unit193> knome: Not enough changed yet.
[23:29] <knome> Unit193, sure, that's why i said "eventually" :)
[23:29] <knome> phillw, the problem with LSC for us is that we feel like we would get some unwanted maintaining burden if we took it
[23:30] <knome> phillw, also, it still needs work before it lives up to our expectations as a package manager, and that's just another hole where we should stuff our time into
[23:30] <phillw> knome: with the major bug fixed, LSC should now be back stable again. Julien is going to upload the patch into saucy and we can then test it.
[23:31] <knome> what's the maintaining situation of it?
[23:31] <knome> and is it still going to be called "lubuntu soft.c." ?
[23:32] <knome> from my point of view, it might gather a lot more momentum if it wasn't tied so closely to lubuntu with its name
[23:32] <phillw> knome: Jorg is keen to support it. If xubuntu wish to use it, I can ask Julien to change the branding to "Light Software Center" or something like that.
[23:33] <knome> as i said, we don't think it's still ready enough for the single package manager in xubuntu (and we don't want two!)
[23:33] <knome> but i would think it would do good for the project to try to unlink it from lubuntu
[23:33] <phillw> okies, no worries :)
[23:33] <knome> even if it was just the name
[23:33] <knome> but since we're not contributing to it... feel free to call it whatever suits you
[23:34] <knome> you can even call it the "whatever suits you the package manager"
[23:34] <phillw> I do agree that re-naming it does make sense, as it runs perfectly fine under xubuntu
[23:34] <knome> and probably debian?
[23:35] <knome> does anybody want to look at the article before i go and publish it?
[23:35] <knome> i'll do in 10 if nobody says a thing about that before.
[23:35] <phillw> i would imagine that as it a gui for synaptic, it will work on all apt-get systems.
[23:35] <knome> gui for apt you mean
[23:36] <phillw> indeed :D
[23:36] <knome> :)
[23:36] <knome> brb
[23:37] <knome> phillw, i don't know what their take is on this, or if i've already said this, but you might want to briefly ask the ubuntu studio people about their plans for package managers in the future
[23:38] <knome> i don't even know what they are shipping at the moment
[23:40] <Unit193> knome: SC, synaptic.
[23:41] <knome> sc as in usc?
[23:42] <phillw> knome: I've just e-mailed Julien to ask if renaming it to "Light Software Centre" would be a problem. 
[23:42] <knome> awesome
[23:43] <knome> should i worry about starting to sound like jono?
[23:43] <phillw> jajaja :D
[23:44] <phillw> afaik, studio use what ever xubuntu does?
[23:44] <knome> not necessarily
[23:45] <phillw> brb nicotine enhancement needed
[23:45] <knome> they did base off much of their work on xubuntu when they switched to xfce but since then they've started to diverge
[23:46] <zequence> we've more fallen behind, I would say
[23:46] <Unit193> knome: Yes.
[23:46] <zequence> That's something we need to work out for this cycle
[23:46] <zequence> We're experimenting with adding more desktop metas to the mix
[23:47] <knome> diverging, falling behind... aren't they synonyms? :]
[23:47] <zequence> Well, our plan was to follow Xubuntu, and it is happening to some extent
[23:48] <zequence> But, the method, or procedure for maintaining the desktop stuff isn't really worked out. Only len-1304 is doing much work on that right now
[23:48] <knome> pleia2, since twitter asked if "my" email is still x@pl, i'm wondering if we wanted to set up a "xubuntu" email account in some canonical hosted (possible?) system to be able to access all the social media stuff even if pretty much everybody vanished off the eart
[23:48] <knome> +h
[23:48] <knome> zequence, aha. sorry to hear that :(
[23:48] <knome> http://xubuntu.org/news/looking-towards-xubuntu-13-10/
[23:49] <Unit193> knome: And did you prefer tiny merges, or groups?
[23:49] <knome> Unit193, group is fine
[23:50] <knome> Unit193, as long as you list anything you've done in the commit messages (or the changelog preferably)
[23:50] <phillw> back
[23:50] <Unit193> Hrm, changelog, riiight.
[23:50] <pleia2> knome: canonical doesn't do hosted email, only forwards
[23:50] <knome> Unit193, don't feel at all obliged to do that. commit messages are perfectly fine
[23:51] <knome> pleia2, in that case, *something*
[23:51] <pleia2> knome: we can just create a shared gmail account
[23:51] <pleia2> or an outlook.com account!
[23:51] <knome> i have problems with shared accounts on google
[23:51] <knome> but i'm fine with that
[23:51] <knome> i mean, it's clumsy
[23:51] <Unit193> knome: And You prefer "friendly" names?  I saw file-roller, so I should change to Archive Manager?
[23:52] <knome> and you can't really set up a "group" account, and i
[23:52] <phillw> if you have xubuntu.org, I can ask for an educational account for you
[23:52] <pleia2> shared as in we all have the password to a single account ;)
[23:52] <knome> ...hate that they try to enforce the "first last" policy there as well
[23:52] <knome> pleia2, i know, but that's the clumsy part
[23:52] <pleia2> phillw: we're not a registered non-profit and I really don't want to violate the google terms
[23:52] <knome> did i whine about google's age policy already?
[23:52] <pleia2> yes :)
[23:53] <pleia2> (probably)
[23:53] <knome> yeah, that's the OTHER problem
[23:53] <phillw> pleia2: I'm not a registered non-profit either and phillw.net has one :)
[23:53] <pleia2> phillw: I assume you got that when they were free?
[23:53] <knome> (try to set a birthday to 2013, google locks your account)
[23:53] <pleia2> I have one too, but they aren't free anymore
[23:53] <Unit193> knome: Set it to 1903.
[23:54] <knome> Unit193, we created a new one and set it to 1986 (the year the organization was foundeD)
[23:54] <pleia2> there isn't a way to get a free one anymore unless you're a non-profit or otherwise entitled (educational institute, etc) and we're not
[23:54] <phillw> pleia2: I know a man who can still issue them, mine is based of his USA system.. There has been a lot of strife going on, but he is still able to issue them.
[23:54] <knome> the funny thing was that they had run google analytics with the account for years
[23:54] <knome> i don't think i want to use any backport either
[23:55] <knome> we can just use any other email provider as well
[23:55] <knome> who doesn't enforce us to do silly things
[23:55]  * pleia2 nods
[23:55] <phillw> but, as always, it is just a suggestion for you people.
[23:55] <pleia2> phillw: thanks
[23:55] <pleia2> we'll figure something out :)
[23:55] <pleia2> I don't think we want to overhead of a whole system anyway, we just want one account
[23:55] <knome> definitely
[23:57] <phillw> does not your DNS provider offer a basic email system?
[23:57] <knome> the point was to not rely on any person
[23:57] <pleia2> canonical owns xubuntu.org
[23:58] <phillw> pleia2: maybe raise an RT? The worst they can say is NO :)
[23:58] <pleia2> phillw: they only do forwards, and forwards don't solve our problem ;)
[23:58] <knome> i'm pretty sure they won't set up emails if they aren't doing it already
[23:59] <knome> pleia2, i imagine a forward could be a partial solution... if a person disappears, just ask IS to point to another email address and you'd be able to recover
[23:59] <knome> ...passwords for sites
[23:59] <pleia2> but no history