[02:03] <bazhang> spyware? seriously?
[02:37] <elky> why do you keep being surprised when people say this?
[11:47] <LjL> why *wouldn't* people say this? it phones home with every single thing i type on what's supposed to be the main mode of interaction with the shell
[15:12] <Myrtti> "Spyware is a software that aids in gathering information about a person or organization without their knowledge and that may send such information to another entity without the consumer's consent, or that asserts control over a computer without the consumer's knowledge [1]
[15:12] <Myrtti> "Spyware" is mostly classified into four types: system monitors, trojans, adware, and tracking cookies.[2] Spyware is mostly used for the purposes such as; tracking and storing internet users' movements on the web; serving up pop-up ads to internet users."
[15:13] <Myrtti> The Wikipedia article is actually quite frightening
[15:20] <LjL> Myrtti: well the wikipedia definition seems to apply, at least if you assume it's done "without my knowledge". of course *i* know, and it's in the privacy policy somewhere, but that's not too dissimilar from default-on checkboxes from "real" spyware programs... what i think matters is the fact that the "spying" is happening in the very core place in the OS, the main menu
[15:21] <Myrtti> anyway, I'm sure our viewers get enormous amounts of fuel from this, and while I don't agree with the policies and decisions made to the core of Ubuntu, I still believe in the community and people of it
[15:23] <LjL> i think some of you have gotten a *tad* too paranoid about "our viewers". although, if this channel or other relevant channels really had many "viewers", then i don't see why they shouldn't see this sort of discussion... i really don't buy that one should be all hush-hush about decisions they strongly disagree with in a community the were part of
[15:25] <LjL> topyli even wrote, (not a direct quote, how i remember it) "if you've done what you wanted for Ubuntu, and now the company and the community are moving in directions you don't like, there is no use making noise about it". uh, since one is supposed to be part of the community, then how does that work - you do what some other members say, because complaining about it would just make you a troublemaker? i just don't get this.
[15:26] <LjL> today i learned the Alternate CD is gone (i assume the Minimal CD too?). that was a very useful tool, and as other things that are slowly being gone, it's gone. i know i'm not celebrating.
[15:28] <Myrtti> yup
[15:28] <Myrtti> atleast community versions still have it
[15:29] <LjL> community versions meaning like Kubuntu? though i guess if Kubuntu has it and Ubuntu doesn't, that would be... weird
[15:30] <Myrtti> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/MinimalInstall
[15:30] <Myrtti> although I've not looked deep into it
[15:31] <Myrtti> might be non-13.04
[15:35] <LjL> uhm that looks to be the generic mini.iso that should work to install whatever flavor you want...
[15:35] <LjL> i had not looked at http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ in a while
[15:35] <LjL> it looks very confusing now
[15:40] <funkyHat> I thought I heard something about getting the debianinstaller stuff back onto the normal live CDs
[15:43] <IdleOne> The troll of trolls called it spyware.
[15:43] <IdleOne> So that is what it is now.
[15:43] <funkyHat> it?
[15:44] <IdleOne> What about it?
[15:48] <funkyHat> Microsoft are running TV adverts that focus on user privacy. I wonder if they are makeing a quiet dig at this stuff ;)
[15:49] <LjL> yeah well they're hypocrites
[15:49] <LjL> their Windows 8 phones home with every piece of software you install
[15:49] <LjL> just to check how signed it is
[18:11] <bazhang> sorry for stirring things up, that was not my intent
[20:42] <elky> LjL, raising concerns, aka complaining, has always been "troublemaking" in this community I'm afraid.
 我撫摸自己!!
[21:06] <bazhang> dont know whether to give guidelines or cn to that one
[21:06] <bazhang> <I don't touch myself>
[21:10] <bazhang> heh that works
[22:48] <topyli> i don't know LjL, it just seems more sensible to work for something that's in line with your own ambitions than to try fight a nice thing when it's on the roll. you'll be more harm than good if you stick around
[22:49] <topyli> that's what i was thinking at the time of writing those words anyway
[22:52] <LjL> topyli, but doesn't one end up contributing to A thinking A shares his ideas but then people make A into something different, so you shut up and put up and go to B, but then after a while, they change things, etc...? i mean if you're part of a community, i think it's fit for you to voice your disagreements over things that are turning a way you deem wrong
[22:54] <topyli> maybe it doesn't have to be like this. like, i can go back to debian when i think my job in ubuntu is done, and when i think ubuntu is mature enough to live without me :)
[22:54] <LjL> topyli: you say "when you've done what you wanted for <x>", but, sometimes if you thought <x> was something different than what it later became, you've done worse than wasting your time - for instance, let's *suppose* that i consider Ubuntu "evil" in some way, now Ubuntu has not only taken those few contributions i have given to it, but it's also got a lot of users who (in a minimal part thanks to my contributions) would have gone to, i don't know, Debian
[22:54] <LjL> or something otherwise
[22:55] <IdleOne> LjL: I agree, but at some point you realize that things are not going to change no matter how much you voice your concerns.
[22:55] <LjL> topyli: so, still under the assumption Ubuntu is "evil", now what you managed to accomplish is make a lot of people use an "evil" project instead of using a "good" project. that's a disappointment even if you just "go back to Debian" at that point
[22:56] <LjL> IdleOne: well that's true
[22:56] <LjL> IdleOne: when it's clear you're in the very minority and it'll be easier to obtain something by joining a different "thing", you do that - or fork
[22:56] <topyli> i don't think ubuntu is evil. i just think i don't care to put much effort in the stuff we are building anymore
[22:57] <LjL> IdleOne: but it's upsetting when one gets the impression the "company" (Canonical in this case) is doing things behind the stage to make it *look like* the community at large is supporting it (while individual people might all be saying "uh, this seems bad to me, but maybe i'm the only one thinking that")
[22:57] <topyli> good luck and all, it's probably a good thing for free software
[22:58] <IdleOne> LjL: I understand what you are saying and at this point is when you need to say to yourself and the community at large (if you want to) that up until now things were great but you are now moving on to other great things.
[22:59] <LjL> topyli: well, i guess there's where i'm not sure i agree. it would depend on one's definitions of "free software" and "good thing", i guess ;P but, say, Android is mostly free software, but whether it's a good thing for free software is debatable... and in general, everything that purports to be "free software" but then embraces things like DRM, built-in tracking (the aforementioned "spyware")... well, i'm not sure that's for the good of free software
[23:00] <LjL> someone mentioned how Microsoft is now running commercials emphasizing the privacy Windows offers (gah)
[23:00] <topyli> LjL: good point
[23:00] <IdleOne> You can't look back and feel bad about the good work you did for a project who at the time you did your good work was awesome. The project has changed and you disagree with the direction but that doesn't negate the good you did.
[23:00] <LjL> i know i can no longer tell anybody that free software, and Ubuntu by extension, protects people's privacy to people - not with a straight face
[23:02] <topyli> btw, privacy isn't my main beef with ubuntu. it's the technical and especially design choices i don't agree with
[23:02] <LjL> IdleOne: well... the goal (my utopical goal at least) was to make a lot of people switch from proprietary systems (Windows, Mac) to free-as-in-freedom systems. not ad-sponsored freeware, not DRM'd open-source, none of that. what has instead happened, now, is that most people are still using Windows, the others are using Ubuntu which is turning into a system i said "none of that" about, and in general, computers are slated to disappear in favor of tablets
[23:02] <LjL> and silly things like that
[23:02] <LjL> sorry if i'm not thrilled :\
[23:03] <IdleOne> No need to be sorry. I agree with you.
[23:03] <topyli> LjL: agreed
[23:03] <IdleOne> I'm just trying to make you see that all the good work you did to help Ubuntu was not a waste of time. You can't be blamed for the direction of Ubuntu today.
[23:04] <topyli> IdleOne: indeed, not a waste
[23:05] <IdleOne> We worked under the assumption the project leaders had the same future as we did in mind. Turns out they didn't.
[23:05] <LjL> yeah, guess it taught me i shouldn't trust one-man enterprises with goals i have in mind
[23:05] <LjL> Debian was there before this Ubuntu thing started, and Debian is still there now
[23:05] <LjL> it might be bureaucratic and clunky and all
[23:06] <LjL> but it works and delivers me actually free software every day
[23:06] <IdleOne> When you did, those goals were the same (on the surface)
[23:06] <LjL> IdleOne: yes but how can you know whether they'll change? i guess the only way is, if it's not "one person" but an actual real community (not a community *dependant* on that one person) that has made their goal explicitly for a long time
[23:07] <topyli> i don't think we've harmed debian's goals along the way. we've helped them
[23:07] <LjL> at least in that case you know if they ever do change, they change because a real majority of the community wanted - not just on the commercial whim of a few individuals
[23:07] <IdleOne> LjL: You can't know. You work and offer your opinion and hope the people listening hear you.
[23:07] <IdleOne> or they don't listen.
[23:08] <LjL> topyli: oh in that sense, sure, Debian has got a few patches, and it doesn't work any worse because of Ubuntu. though maybe a few users who could be using Debian (and contributing bug reports or more) are instead doing it with Ubuntu
[23:09] <LjL> IdleOne, i have a need of something that can't be taken away from me. i like "free software" because it seemed to fulfill that need. it states in its license that it can't be made unfree again. but now i realize that even when something has an open source license, it's not necessarily "free software" in that sense.
[23:09] <topyli> LjL: at least i think more people know about debian and free software
[23:09] <IdleOne> LjL: I feel betrayed also.
[23:09] <topyli> at least while we still used to link to debian and talk about free software
[23:09] <IdleOne> But I refuse to let that make me not trust again.
[23:10] <IdleOne> stepping away
[23:10] <LjL> IdleOne: i'm not saying "never trust", but maybe there are signals to watch for about whom to trust
[23:11] <LjL> topyli: i only wished Debian got, like, a graphical installed and some DE packages not fifty years old :P
[23:11] <LjL> installer*
[23:11] <bazhang> augh
[23:11] <bazhang> so LjL is joining android?
[23:11] <topyli> debian wheezy does have a graphical installer :)
[23:11] <LjL> O.o
[23:11] <LjL> topyli: really?
[23:11] <topyli> yep
[23:11] <bazhang> or Trisquel!
[23:13] <LjL> bazhang: uhm, Trisquel sounds more likely than Android
[23:13] <bazhang> ok
[23:13] <bazhang> but leaving Ubuntu?
[23:14] <topyli> not me, i'm still committed to doing some stuff this year
[23:15] <topyli> oh LjL
[23:16] <LjL> bazhang: well i've basically already stopped doing anything Ubuntu-related, the only thing left is opping -ot which i probably want to continue doing regardless since it's a place of its own
[23:17] <bazhang> heh yeah
[23:18] <bazhang> I'm on freenode, going to stick with Ubuntu
[23:18] <topyli> no place like -ot!
[23:18] <bazhang> just like the challenge of problem solving issues in Linux, I suppose
[23:19] <LjL> i've long been unable to offer any real Ubuntu support, "back then" there were questions i could answer and Ubuntu had subsystems i partly understood, now it's mostly all a black box to me
[23:20] <bazhang> askubuntu.com is the new ubuntuforums
[23:21] <bazhang> you can almost literally copy and paste most questions into google and askubuntu has a solution
[23:22] <topyli> yes i've noticed
[23:22] <LjL> i haven't used askubuntu much, but now i'm writing stuff in python and stackexchange has been the constant thing coming up to my google enquiries (since i don't know python)
[23:26] <topyli> it's strange. from the usenet to forums to stackexchange, nothing has really changed. we just change stuff for the sake of change
[23:33] <LjL> topyli: i'd say something has changed. usenet, we had one robust distributed network that was virtually impossible to take down or censor; forums, we had many individual places which could each die at any time, and then you'd move to another; stackexchange, one single point of control and failure
[23:33] <LjL> and that's a pattern i've seen happen in other instances