[07:29] <ochosi> wow, now that i finally upgraded to raring, appfinder has become totally useless. it has an extreme lag at startup
[07:35] <elfy> ochosi: it's fine here - always has been
[07:35] <Noskcaj> compare specs, we might find the problem
[07:35] <elfy> paper and pen here :p
[07:36] <Noskcaj> lol, i mean PC
[07:36] <elfy> i know @)
[07:36] <ochosi> na, i think it's totally spec-unrelated
[07:36] <ochosi> it's upgrade-related
[07:37] <Noskcaj> ochosi, sounds right, my app finder works fine
[07:37] <elfy> could well be, this is a testing raring still being used 
[07:37] <ochosi> i think i'll go for a clean install after all
[07:37] <ochosi> just don't feel like hunting down problems like that one
[07:37] <elfy> I can understand that :)
[07:38] <ochosi> oh, btw, wrt to pavucontrol i'm not sure anymore i really wanna touch it :)
[07:38] <ochosi> main issue is that it's in c++ and glade
[07:38] <ochosi> that's not really my favorite combination
[07:38] <ochosi> (i had assumed it was c and glade)
[07:40] <elfy> eyes glazing over ... 
[07:40] <ochosi> i can do the mockups and everything, but i fear working my way into c++ might be a waste of time
[07:41] <elfy> ser lderan loose on it - he's looking for something to work on :)
[07:41] <elfy> s/set
[07:42] <ochosi> sounds like a plan :ü
[07:42] <ochosi> :p
[07:43] <elfy> I found him one - but it's only small :D 
[07:43] <elfy> http://lderan.co.uk/settings-manager.png
[07:46] <ochosi> elfy: what's that?
[07:47] <ochosi> you mean he should check what goes into settings-man and what actually should remain in the menu?
[07:47] <ochosi> stuff like kick gparted back to system > ?
[07:47] <elfy> no - I think having things like gparted in there is a good call - perhaps synaptic should do the same
[07:48] <elfy> BUT the description should change as it's no longer customise your desktop :)
[07:48] <elfy> little thing to be sure - but that's what big things are made of 
[07:48] <ochosi> why is it not customize your desktop anymore?
[07:49] <elfy> ok - let me tell you a story - then you tell me how I customised my desktop :)
[07:50] <ochosi> k
[07:51] <elfy> so - I had a partition with fedora on it that was never booted, just sitting there taking up space, so I installed gparted to get rid of it, that gets put in the settings manager now, I start gparted - remove the fedora partition and leave it unallocated then turn of gparted again
[07:51] <elfy> there you go :) no desktop customisation that I can see ... 
[07:52] <ochosi> if you follow that through, then "customize your OS" is also not enough
[07:53] <elfy> maybe 'system settings and customisation' or something
[07:53] <ochosi> it's already called settings manager
[07:53] <elfy> or even no description at all 
[07:53] <elfy> yea - menu is setting manager - when you open it title is settings
[07:54] <ochosi> so i'd rather go for "customize your desktop and system", but really, i don't see the need to change that string tbh ;)
[07:54] <elfy> but it's not customise your desktop anymore - not an enormous issue - more one of 'polish' 
[07:55] <elfy> and if 13.04 is the time to 'polish' prior to the next lts ... ;)
[07:55] <ochosi> well mostly it is still your desktop
[07:55] <ochosi> gparted is one of those examples where someone from US recently asked whether we can put that back in the system-category of the menu
[07:55] <elfy> yea - but not customise only - as I said it's not important and lderan was looking for something to work on 
[07:55] <ochosi> :)
[07:56] <elfy> well - perhaps it's that thta needs to be looked at instead 
[07:56] <elfy> I'd argue that arandr should be in system menu 
[07:56] <ochosi> that's confusing if we keep the display-dialog in the settings-manager
[07:56] <elfy> or that all system things should go there 
[07:57] <elfy> perhaps wrong choice to argue - I'd argue that if gparted is in there why isn't synaptic 
[07:57] <ochosi> yeah, we can discuss that
[07:57] <elfy> I'll bring it up at a meeting then 
[07:57] <ochosi> i think solely focussing on the title is narrowing down the issue too much
[07:57] <ochosi> that feels like we've already decided that it's gonna stay as is
[07:58] <elfy> possibly - I dodn't remember discussion about gparted going there so I suspect before my time 
[07:58] <ochosi> i think we discussed it at some point, but not very thoroughly iirc
[07:58] <elfy> just appears from here to be half a job done 
[07:59] <ochosi> thing is, this change should go upstream
[07:59] <ochosi> otherwise we have to do separate translations for this single string in launchpad
[07:59] <elfy> did adding gparted upstream go upstream then?
[07:59] <ochosi> (which would probably be worse than keeping what we have)
[08:00] <ochosi> sry, i didn't understand that sentence :)
[08:00] <elfy> I'd not want to go making a lot of hard work for us for little gain
[08:00] <ochosi> yeah
[08:00] <ochosi> what did you mean with "adding gparted upstream go upstream" ?
[08:00] <elfy> I meant if the description string needs to go upstream did the adding gparted go upstream or was it in a xubuntu-settings 
[08:01] <elfy> in fact I think I remember xubuntu settings or something changing fpor gparted 
[08:01] <elfy> nvm
[08:01] <ochosi> ok, wrt what goes in settings: the categories of the .desktop file have to be modified for that
[08:01] <ochosi> it's easy to change
[08:02] <ochosi> basically submit a bugreport to gparted about it
[08:02] <elfy> ok - perhaps I'll do that then instead, in which case the description will be right again :)
[08:03] <ochosi> yeah, i'd say let's talk about it at a meeting and decide what to do about those things
[08:03] <elfy> k - makes sense 
[08:03] <elfy> I'll wait for knome to set dates and add it to agenda 
[08:04] <ochosi> update-manager is a similar candidate for discussion
[08:04] <elfy> is it
[08:04] <ochosi> i think so :)
[08:04] <elfy> oh here we go - 3 young girls awake now :|
[08:05] <ochosi> even the fact that we don't agree on that one shows that there's a need for discussion ;)
[08:05] <ochosi> oh right, hf then!
[08:05] <elfy> indeed :)
[08:05] <elfy> they'll not like me ochosi - I had dad head on at 2am 
[08:05] <ochosi> hehe
[08:05] <elfy> I'd say what I said but the channel's logged :p
[08:07] <elfy> cool - anyway - so we know that we need to chat the issue over at some point - especially if you've been asked about putting gparted back
[08:07] <ochosi> yup
[14:14] <len-1310> ochosi, WRT settings manager, I have been of two minds. I have fixed studio's layout already for a separate settings and system, so xubuntu is welcome to look at our code.
[14:14] <len-1310> however, while I was doing it, I also had the thought that is I had access to all the strings, I might calling control center or something and just add all of the system stuff there.
[14:15] <len-1310> (it's too early lots of typos)
[14:18] <len-1310> ochosi, WRT ARandR, I would prefer to see Display include monitor placement and not need Arandr at all.
[14:19] <len-1310> As it sits now, one has to use xrandr, arandr or whatever to place the display where it is wanted and then run display in setting to save it so it stays over boots.
[14:27] <len-1310> Having two display setting apps looks bad.
[15:59] <phillw> len-1310: lubuntu has http://wiki.lxde.org/en/LXRandR it may be worth you looking at it?
[16:01] <len-1310> phillw, the question is, does it save the settings from one session to another. or does the user have to reset? I need something integrated in the xfce window manager.
[16:02] <phillw> len-1310: in theory, yes. I've never used it with a reboot however. http://askubuntu.com/questions/259785/where-does-lxrandr-save-its-display-configurations
[16:03] <phillw> I've only used it to hook up a projector when giving a session at an F/OSS meeting :)
[16:03] <len-1310> right now I have to run the xfce display settings to save it
[16:04] <len-1310> A lot of Studio users have two monitors on their desk and want them side by side.
[16:05] <phillw> len-1310: the settings should be at ~/.config/autostart/lxrandr-autostart.desktop according to the askubuntu posting?
[16:07] <len-1310> So that would be yet another binary to run...
[16:08] <len-1310> Anyway. I will look at it.
[16:08] <len-1310> Arandr may be able to run that way too.
[16:08] <phillw> it is read on startup, and should be created / modified if you save a configuration.
[16:09] <len-1310> I would prefer something that change the xfce settings file :)
[16:09] <phillw> len-1310: have a look at the code, it is GPL afterall :)
[16:09] <len-1310>  I can edit it by hand so it is doable.
[16:10] <len-1310> I am also wondering if I would have to put a delay in there so that xfce sets things however and then whatever else setts it right.
[16:10]  * len-1310 needs to learn to code
[16:10] <phillw> lubuntu are quite happy to take something that is close to what we need and then tweaking it :)
[16:11] <len-1310> I'll have to install it and play.
[16:11] <phillw> if it's in python, we've recently got a competent python programmer who may be prepared to help out :)
[16:12] <phillw> he fixed LSC which may be getting a re-name :)
[16:13] <len-1310> Is it fast than USC? (well I guess just about anything would be)
[16:14] <phillw> len-1310: it is far less resource hungry, a lower spec lubuntu capable machine would shuuder to a halt if it tried to run USC, that is why it was created :)
[16:15] <len-1310> My machine does that.
[16:15] <phillw> if you install it onto xubuntu, it installs fine. The bug was when it was added during the install the lubuntu :D
[16:15] <len-1310> We call USC with menu specific app lists
[16:16] <len-1310> So in our office menu we have an option that open USC with just office apps
[16:16] <len-1310> (Studio comes with no office apps)
[16:17] <phillw> well, LSC has a maintainer now, which was a concern of k-nome for it to be considerred for inclusion in xubuntu / ubuntu-studio. If it is wanted, then Julien (our head of Dev) is okay for it to be renamed from Lubuntu Software Center to Light Software Center.
[16:17] <len-1310> phillw, thank you for the time and info, I need to get going
[16:18] <phillw> okies. tc
[16:18] <len-1310> I will look at LSC later tonight
[17:15] <ochosi> len-1310: the new display dialog already includes that, it just hasn't been shipped yet (it's in the xfce4.12 ppa if you wanna test it)
[17:32] <bluesabre> ochosi, we should get some testers for whats in the settings manager git-master (so we can have display hot-plugging)
[17:33] <ochosi> definitely
[17:33] <ochosi> in fact jeromeg recently emailed me asking about the status of the primary branch
[17:33] <ochosi> i had to tell him it was kinda broken beyond repair
[18:03] <phillw> bluesabre: ochosi is there any reason why lxde and xcfe cannot work on a GUI for RandR ? 
[18:06] <GridCube> theres arandr alredy isnt it?
[18:07] <ochosi> phillw: not sure you read it, but i mentioned that we already worked on making xfce's display dialog work with multiple displays
[18:07] <ochosi> and it works quite well in fact
[18:09] <phillw> ochosi: I am new to this area :) arandr was considered to be too high on resources. Do please remember that xubuntu is mid-spec release now and lubuntu are the ones running on lowest machine specs. We use xcfe applications in lubuntu, it seems only fair for me to point out lxde ones that may help xubuntu :D
[18:10] <ochosi> sure, i'm totally for sharing stuff with lubuntu or other distros
[18:10] <ochosi> but in this case i think we have it covered
[18:11] <ochosi> bbl
[18:13] <phillw> hey, if you have a more functional implementation, lubuntu will possibly use it :) There is no point in our teams dedicating precious dev time to sorting out a similar requirement across the flavours.
[20:36] <Len-nb> ochosi, It is great to hear that the new display applet does position too. I will be glad to drop arandr. It works ok but doesn't save in a way that is easy for the newby to automate.
[21:37] <Len-nb> phillw, Looking at lxrandr. Has it changed since 13.04? There is no monitor positioning that I can see.
[21:38] <phillw> Len-nb: (19:07:37) ochosi: phillw: not sure you read it, but i mentioned that we already worked on making xfce's display dialog work with multiple displays
[21:39] <Len-nb> I can see two monitors, but I can only change resolution or vrate
[21:39] <Len-nb> Ya, I should probably wait. I was just checking to see where it was.
[21:39] <phillw> It is a case where it would be better for xubuntu and lubuntu to work on a solution?
[21:41] <Len-nb> xfsettingsd is the key
[21:42] <Len-nb> I think that is what saves and restores these settings, Am I correct?
[21:47] <phillw> Len-nb: have a chat with ochosi when he gets back.
[21:48] <Len-nb> LSC looks good.
[21:50] <phillw> Len-nb: Let us see if xubuntu / ubuntu-studio wish to use it. 
[21:51] <Unit193> Xubuntu may if it supports the pay for applications, otherwise that's why USC is still higher.
[21:51] <Len-nb> If I can get it to take search terms on the command line. I may use it in studio
[21:51] <Unit193> Len-nb: What's wrong with  apt-cache search  ? ;)
[21:51] <Len-nb> It is much faster than USC
[21:52] <phillw> Len-nb: can it not do that?
[21:52] <Len-nb> Unit193, we use menu items with USC with an apps list that relates to the menu it sits in
[21:52] <Len-nb> I have yet to try.
[21:53] <Len-nb> I am just looking at it now.
[21:53] <Unit193> Len-nb: Yeah, I read that, interesting.
[21:53] <phillw> Len-nb: do please report back :)
[21:53] <Len-nb> Ya, will do.
[21:55] <phillw> Unit193: as the patch for LSC has been produced, what are your thoughts of it being a lower resourced version of USC?
[21:55] <Unit193> As far as I know, it doesn't support applications you buy.
[21:56] <phillw> Unit193: no, I m pretty sure that would have to be added; I'm still in the 'gray' area of buying stuff. 
[21:57] <Unit193> It's a major feature of USC.
[21:59] <phillw> Unit193: and USC kills lower resource machines.... As to where to call it for xubuntu / ubuntu-studio, that is their team call. USC is far too resource hungry for lubuntu.
[22:00] <Unit193> Yes, and since we're in #xubuntu-devel, I'm talking about Xubuntu. :P
[22:00] <phillw> Unit193: 17:14:26) phillw: len-1310: it is far less resource hungry, a lower spec lubuntu capable machine would shuuder to a halt if it tried to run USC, that is why it was created :)
[22:00] <phillw> (17:15:11) phillw: if you install it onto xubuntu, it installs fine. The bug was when it was added during the install the lubuntu :D
[22:00] <phillw> (17:15:11) len-1310: My machine does that.
[22:01] <phillw> Unit193: that is why I suggested using LSC :)
[22:04] <Len-nb> LSC ignores the coomandline as of 0.0.5  even --help
[22:08] <phillw> Len-nb: May I me really cheeky and ask why a n00b would use the command line for help? They would already be using apt or synaptic (for gui)? I am really interested in your comments, as the the testers always scream "use CLI"... We do, however have to have a s
[22:08] <phillw> system for n00bs.
[22:09] <Len-nb> phillw, I should be testing on a 13.10 system
[22:09] <Len-nb> the reason for cli is in my custom desktop files
[22:10] <phillw> Len-nb: try it on a VM
[22:13] <Len-nb> I have 13.10 on the other machine. but I am acting as medical dummy for my wife to pracice on
[22:15] <Unit193> Hah, been there, done that... Have fun!  What's she studying for?
[22:20] <Len-nb> LPN
[22:20] <Unit193> Aha.
[22:25] <Len-nb> This machine is hard to boot, I have to terminate the vga plug or I get no video. I can see the GRUB screen except on an external monitor... so this is not a good testing machine.\
[22:27] <Len-nb> *can't
[22:33] <Unit193> I know what you mean, I have problems with releases and released drivers from upstream, so hard to tell what's broken.
[22:34] <len-1310> Bios in this case. Known problem...
[22:34] <len-1310> Acer netbook. The well known fix for the early model doesn't work on mine.
[22:38] <Unit193> Bleh, and no BIOS update I'd guess either...
[22:38] <len-1310> I should look some more, but there are so many other things to do :)
[23:35] <len-1310> The version of LSC in 13.10 is still only 0.0.5