[00:15] zequence, Re: menu overlay for all DEs. My hope is to be able to do all or at least most of our menu mods in one file for all DEs (including those we don't ship :) [00:16] However, There may be some things that end up being DE dependant, so we may still end up with a slightly non-standard menu for each DE as well. [00:19] I am thinking of the settings/system stuff. The different DEs handle these things differently and we end up with settings applets from more than one DE because of our workflow Apps. [00:23] zequence, anyway, I will build the generic overlay becasue it will be a good starting point for all the DEs. We can see what our menus look like with any custom menus turned off. [00:24] If the overlay is good enough then we can let the rest of the menu go as packaged. [00:27] xfce 4.12 may change the settings manager situation as well. [03:50] zequence, looked at keeping a generic menu for studio... not much fun. I can add but not subtract where I have tried so far. [03:51] zequence, I can make a chunk that is pretty much generic and then the only editing we have to do to the DE menu file is to remove what we want to add. [03:54] That way if there is editing of our menus that can be done in one place === smartboyhw_ is now known as smartboyhw [11:48] hi all [11:49] DarkEra: hello [11:51] len-1310: Ok, so if I've understood correctly, we can only add to a generic menu, but if we want to remove things, we need to do that for each menu separately? [11:55] Great, got another week of work, so two weeks of teaching people about Linux [12:00] ..money will go to a trip to Switzerland for the DebConf13 event [12:04] len-1310: We'll be getting a new udev shortly, so let's see if that will change anything for us [13:00] zequence, that sounds cool to me^^ [13:06] zequence, I am still working on it. I seem to be able to put a very short menufile where our file is now. It has two lines that merge parent and merge our custom file (in that order) [13:07] The short file then can be linked to with whatever filename the DE expects. [13:08] zequence: Nice one!! [13:08] hello smartboyhw_ [13:08] len-1310: Hey [13:09] Are you still doing studio K [13:11] len-1310: Yep, but not before 14 June. [13:11] EXAM [13:11] not a problem. [13:12] smartboyhw_, can I fit a kubuntu on 20G? [13:13] len-1310: Why not? It fits within 10G (or even 6GB) [13:14] Ok, I will see if it works on this box. [13:16] Grub is really annoying. A flavour nmae would be soooo helpful. [13:17] len-1310: Heh [13:17] Which package is that script from? I guess it is part of grub2? [13:18] Yeah, GRUB could use some more work on the menu [13:19] should be for all flavours though [13:19] Which package to bug? [13:19] grub is not installed... [13:21] len-1310: grub2 maybe3 [13:21] maybe* [13:21] we have grub-pc-bin, and grub-common [13:21] len-1310: grub2 [13:21] zequence: GRUB 3 hasn't been invented yet;P [13:22] smartboyhw_: I was referring to the package maybe3, which could be anything maybe [13:22] There is no grub2 package [13:22] sure there is [13:22] It's a dummy package though [13:22] we don't install it. [13:22] it depends on grub-pc and grub-common though [13:23] you're right. We don't install the dummy package [13:23] grub-pc then [13:23] depends [13:23] IWait [13:23] depends on which one holds the grub config files [13:25] grub2 is the source pacakge though [13:25] so, I would just report it against grub2 [13:25] I think it is grub-common. [13:26] It includes all the /etc/grub.d/* stuff [13:27] I will put a bug against that and maybe we can get lots of people to say this affects them. [13:28] len-1310: I'd do it on grub 2, or at least make one for both [13:28] and then make a duplicate of the bug [13:31] This may actually be a bug with the distro identification. [13:33] Don't all distros have a way to ID the distro? [13:33] Even if it's not the same, GRUB can do it [13:33] But, I guess it might be nice if there was a standard for all Linux based [13:33] When it took the system info, the install medium has studio, but the distro is just ubuntu [13:33] I'd think all Debian based has the same system [13:34] Ah.. [13:34] Actually, I have Debian GRUB [13:34] So, I'm not seeing the same stuff [13:34] I just have kernel versions [13:35] Studio at least has a different kernel, but I have xubuntu and lubuntu and they look the same. [13:35] I remember the distro by which order they come in, and which ARCH (almost every other is 32bit and 64bit) [13:35] I shouldn't have to do that and besides a new install changes the order :P [13:36] So, we might need a new file for flavor ID [13:36] Unless one wants the initial install to decide which flavor it is [13:37] One can start out with netinstall, and then add whichever flavor. Also, add them all to one install [13:37] DistroRelease: Ubuntu 13.10 [13:37] All flavors are Ubuntu [13:37] That is probably a mistake. [13:37] Why is that a mistake? [13:38] Bug #1182067 [13:38] bug 1182067 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "The grub menu does not show ubuntu flavour" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1182067 [13:38] All flavors are Ubuntu. It's not a mistake [13:38] I think the flavour should be part of the name. [13:38] All flavors can exist in paralell [13:38] That is why the flavour should be part of the name. [13:38] So, should the GRUB menu name all of them? [13:39] Ok, so the distro could then be: Ubuntu+Kubuntu+Lubuntu+Xubuntu.. etc [13:39] Well I only keep Ubuntu Studio in here:P [13:39] The system ditribution should have the flavour name [13:39] Yes, but the system is the same [13:39] We all have ubuntu-minimal [13:39] We are all Ubuntu [13:40] Yes. but it is what is on top that makes them unique [13:40] But, you can have them all at the same time [13:40] So, how do you ID then? [13:41] by which flavour got there first? [13:41] 15:36 < zequence> Unless one wants the initial install to decide which flavor it is [13:41] We still need a new file for flavors [13:41] And it might make little sense [13:42] That might be a problem if the initial install is mini.iso [13:42] 15:37 < zequence> One can start out with netinstall, and then add whichever flavor. Also, add them all to one install [13:42] Yes, it is problematic [13:43] Perhaps there is some gui tool for making custom changes.. [13:43] I read about some not long ago [13:45] I think maybe one could add an additional ID to the GRUB menu, not replacing Ubuntu, but adding to it, showing from which install medium one made the install [13:45] That is my thought. [13:45] But, then you need a new file [13:45] One which is only added by installers [13:45] And only Ubuntu installers [13:45] meaning, all the Ubuntu flavors [13:46] But that file has to be in a standrd place as grub by be reinstalled/configured from any partition. [13:46] s/by/may [13:47] something like /etc/ubuntu_installer [13:47] next problem - upgrades [13:47] May as well be in /etc/grub.d/ [13:48] Why? It has nothing to do with grub [13:48] upgrades should be from the same to the same flavour [13:48] ls [13:48] oops focus follows mind not installed [13:50] Well, ok, the installer ID would not need to have the release version. Just the installer (not flavor) [13:50] the mini.iso is not a flavor, until you add one [13:50] So, you'd add the installer ID, not the flavor ID [13:50] And from the mini.iso, you can add all flavors at once [13:51] or, at least their desktop metas, which is not exactly the same thing [13:51] A flavor is not much more than a custom set of preinstalled packages [13:51] ..and settings [13:52] The base system is the same [13:52] mini.iso could include in the setup stage a question of which flavour do you want to call this partition? [13:52] In fact ubiquity could too [13:54] len-1310: I think in this case, the easiest solution is actually just a GRUB gui tool [13:54] And you can make whatever changes you want [13:54] And call your partition what you want [13:55] I would prefer to limit changes that are easy to make ... [13:55] The flavor is a very loose term for a system, as it really just is a set of preinstalled packages. [13:55] * len-1310 has visions of too many unbootable systems [13:55] Easy to make? [13:55] Partition label would be better [13:56] easy to make as can be made from a gui [13:56] Anyone can and will. [13:56] The gui should not be able to make changes that make the system not boot [13:57] There is a gui tool already available [13:57] package? [13:57] I haven't used. As I said, I've only read about one [13:57] don't remember the name [13:58] There used to be one for grub1 too [13:58] Whenever there are system files that can be altered, you can create a gui tool to edit them [13:58] And, it's up to you, the coder, how much freedom you give to the user for that gui tool [13:59] Ya, the question is do I want to... do I want to support the changes a regular user might make. [14:00] I think the better question is: would it be useful or not [14:00] /etc/os-release has name and version on two lines. maybe the flavour could be part of the version. [14:00] The problem again is that flavors are all the same OS [14:01] certainly there needs to be some way the user knows what partition is which at boot time. [14:01] But, maybe if installing from the [14:01] ..nevermind [14:01] NAME="Ubuntu" VERSION="UbuntuSTudio 13.10, Saucy Salamander" [14:03] There is also ID=ubuntu [14:03] Again, all flavors are the same OS [14:03] They are just different flavors of it [14:04] Should a meta package decide which OS it is? [14:04] But whatever way of doing things is used it has to be the same for all flavours [14:04] the meta can ask at install [14:05] In fact it should work with other distros like debian or slackware or redhat [14:07] I think if you really think this is something you would like to see happen, discuss it on the ubuntu-devel-discuss list [14:08] That way you should get some good feedback on the problem of identifying a flavor, and whether or not it is possible to do so [14:08] zequence, anyway, I will play with this stuff. Is there a more generic video driver than nouveau that might work with gnome? [14:08] len-1310: The problem is not with the driver, I don't think. It's with your card [14:08] It doesn't have the support needed [14:09] If the card is too old, it just doesn't have the tech it needs [14:09] so if I user a driver that doesn't try will gnome fall back to use less? [14:11] You certainly cannot put the flavor in a OS description file [14:11] the OS is bascially ubuntu-minimal [14:12] But, maybe you can add a file that lets you know which installer you used [14:12] You can install XFCE, but not Xubuntu [14:12] YOu can install Unity, but not Ubuntu [14:12] You can install awesome as your DE [14:12] And you can install all of them into one single system [14:13] The user probably doesn't want the name of their install to change just by adding a DE anyway. [14:13] you mean, installer? [14:13] I'm not going to tell users what they should want [14:14] Also, one can remove packages [14:14] One can purge a whole flavor, and add a new one [14:14] No I mean whatever GRUB calls that partition should not change just because I added another DE [14:14] What GRUB calls the partition is a separate problem [14:14] That shold be set at install time (original install) [14:14] First, you have to come up with a way to ID a flavor [14:15] But, I'm saying you can't [14:15] You can however decide to add a file that let's you know which installer you used [14:15] and only changed by the user. [14:15] That would be an upstream grub thing I think. [14:16] upstream GRUB, to add something to look up Ubuntu flavors? [14:17] If you don't believe me, just put out the question on ubuntu-devel-discuss list [14:17] I'm sure you'll get very similar answers [14:19] not ubuntu flavours, but partition ID. [14:20] It could be used in any distro [14:20] not just ubuntu [14:23] Whatever the solution, user experience when faced with 2 or more grub selections all named the same thing is not good. [16:52] Hmm, Kubuntu works fine with my "old" video card. [16:54] Hi all : ) [16:54] hello [16:54] Hi len-k :) [16:54] KDE4 doesn't require a newer card [16:55] Ya... I am not sure why gnome3 should either. [16:56] len-k: gnome-shell does, and it's because it is based on more modern tech than you find in older graphic card [16:56] It's just a sign of you needing to buy a new one [16:56] Things evolve [16:56] So why is there no reasonable fall back? [16:56] There are things you simply can't do with old technology [16:56] Churn is bad. I have a working card why should I replace it? [16:56] Just like dropping support for i386 [16:57] Or, no [16:57] 1386 is a lot older. [16:57] even a P1 is still ok. [16:57] (not sure about 486) [16:58] At some point, you want to take the next step in graphics. Computer games does this at a much faster rate than DEs [16:58] But, it's basically the same problem [16:58] Users need to have technology that supports the changes [16:58] A DE should not be based on games. [16:59] At this point, anything not older than 5 years should support it [16:59] Thats like brand new. [16:59] Who said it should? [16:59] that what what your comment above sugested [16:59] Many graphic cards don't even survive that long [16:59] no, it didn't [16:59] Lots do too. [17:00] I have an S3 that is still fine. [17:00] len-k: Tell me, how well do flash videos play on your card? [17:00] Seem to be ok. [17:00] len-k: no stuttering at all? [17:00] len-k: At which resolution? [17:00] Depends what the rest of the system is doing. [17:01] I'm guessing performance is not very good [17:01] Not sure. The same as the DVD player works at. [17:01] the general desktop usage needs are above what you have, no matter which DE [17:02] There are DEs for lower performance needs [17:02] Gnome3 is not designed for that [17:02] That is not a valid assumption [17:03] Anyway, this idealogical differences. You think one way and I another. [17:03] If your computer is 10 years old, don't assume the newest stuff should work on it [17:03] The DE should [17:03] It's not my opinion [17:03] Applications is another thing. [17:03] It's the opinion of the DE designers [17:04] Your opinion is not what decides the opinion of the DE designers [17:04] Yup that is true. [17:04] Like I said, there are DEs that support older machines better [17:04] everything but gnome 3 it seems [17:04] gnome-shell [17:05] And Unity with desktop effects [17:05] Ok [17:05] And everything else that is quite new [17:05] unity works OOTB [17:05] KDE works OOTB [17:06] KDE is even reasonably fast [17:06] KDE is pretty old in comparison [17:06] And I wouldn't think anything is fast on your machine [17:06] Maybe awesome [17:08] I am sure there are some things that are really snappy, but both xfce and lxde (what lubuntu uses) are not noticably slow. [17:08] Even kde for that matter. [17:08] Not slower than my 2 year old machine anyway. [17:08] right.. [17:09] The 2 yearold machine does handle videos better but the desktop experience is the same [17:10] That is the gpu, some things run faster on the 10 year old machine than the 2 year old. [17:10] Look, you obviously think that everyone should design their stuff so they work on your machine [17:10] And suit your life style [17:11] I'm not saying everything other people do (DE designers, Canonical devs, or me, or you) is smart [17:11] But there are reasons for everything [17:13] A lot of people make the assumption that what they do is the normal thing [17:14] When a many enough do that, then perhaps it is [17:15] There have in the past, been many people who looked for older machines to run linux on. I know lots of people still using older HW than what I have even. [17:15] Sure, and there are alternatives for them [17:15] Perhaps that is changing and linux has got to the point people buy new machine just to install that more often. [17:16] Gnome3, Unity, or even KDE(while it is now older), were not designed for them in mind. They do however not take bigger leaps than the main stream user can handle [17:16] This is still a time of growth, many new things are happening. [17:16] I'm sure there are differences in what kind of machines the main stream user uses in differenc countries [17:17] The use of linux on older equipment is narrowing as the linux community expands. [17:17] probably the group of people that use older machine is pretty stagnent in size and may be even shrinking. [17:18] Obviously the percentage has shrunk a lot. [17:18] In my case I don't have the funds to buy new machines all the time. I have to use what I have. [17:18] computers seem to be a bit cheaper today then they were 10 years ago. graphic cards are at least [17:19] Ya, but I don't have a PCIe slot [17:19] I have one of those graphics only things [17:19] New MBs don't even have IDE anymore [17:19] Or, many of them [17:19] Ya I know and those that do have problems with them [17:20] That just means you have to upgrade the whole machine [17:20] I don't have IDE [17:20] And is a sign of yours being pretty old [17:20] Can't [17:21] But most don't even have PCI which I think is what you meant [17:21] I think there are adapters though, but not sure how those work [17:21] Upgrading means 1k plus pretty much [17:21] PCI is still fairly common, but you usually only get one or two slots [17:21] The MB I have doesn't have IDE at all. Only SATA [17:21] I have sata [17:22] but I do also have ide [17:22] And only one PS/2 hybrid mouse and keyboard connector [17:22] I use the ide for dvd only [17:22] The rest is usb2, usb3, eSata, HDMI, etc [17:22] Can't get ide drives anyway. [17:23] The problem I had was I couldn't connect my DVD drive to it [17:23] So, I don't have one at all [17:23] They are also SATA nowadays [17:23] But, I wasn't too interested in buying a new one, even if they are cheap [17:23] Or, BluRay, as they are now [17:24] If I go to a PCIe only board I need new audio IF as well. To get anything worth while would cost more than the rest of the upgrade. [17:24] There are plenty of boards with PCI [17:24] I don't think that will disappear as quickly [17:24] And LAU is full of people who have bought one and can't get their PCI card to work [17:25] 5 or 6 any way in the last 5 or 6 months [17:26] If I upgrade though, it is likely to be a machine for the DE and leave the audio stuff on this one. [17:26] At least till I can get a new audio IF [17:27] coincidentally, someone just asked about /etc/os-release on #ubuntu-devel [17:28] and suggesting it should contain the flavor [17:28] I have a wife going to school and special needs kids one with a diet that costs lots.. hopefully my wife will be working next year. [17:28] That is probably as a result of my bug report. [17:29] the answer from riddel, just as from myself is: they are all the same OS [17:29] * len-k is trying out rekonq [17:29] Yes but diffent versions [17:29] but really that doesn't matter [17:30] the script that makes up the GRUB menu sho8uld ensure unique entries by some method even if just adding the partition number [17:31] The concept of flavors is not universal. The way flavors work in Ubuntu, is just local to Ubuntu [17:32] As I said it doesn't matter [17:32] And, it's not identifyable from the system [17:32] The OS is the same for all. The OS is ubuntu-minimal [17:32] It could be. But that doesn't matter there needs to be some way in grub of the user being able to identify what partition is which [17:33] If you add multiple OSs the smart thing to do is to not install GRUB in the MBR for more than one OS [17:33] Like I said if the flavour is not able to be used then at least the partition number should be there [17:33] In which case, the GRUB is generated from one install only [17:34] Then why have grub at all? it spurpose is to be able to load more than one partition worth of OS [17:34] There's only one MBR [17:34] That can cause problems too. [17:35] each time you update a kernel, grub updates the list [17:35] It looks through all the partitions [17:35] Not sure when MBR is updated. At least when grub is updated, but probably also when kernels are updated [17:36] Yes. I know and the order in grub might change because of it [17:36] That means, each time you update the MBR, it changes to the GRUB that is in the install you are using right then [17:36] Yup [17:36] And each distro has their own GRUB [17:36] So the answer is to have a grub that can update it self. [17:36] so, the GRUB changes each time you update a distro [17:37] When you update Debian, it'll be the Debian GRUB [17:37] When you update Ubuntu, it'll change to the Ubuntu GRUB [17:37] Yup [17:37] And each have their own system [17:37] It's not the same package [17:37] It's not the same configuration [17:37] Which is why, I find it much less disorientating to just keep one GRUB in the MBR [17:38] A grub that takes care of itself that can be linked to from each OS would be great , but it is not something we have [17:38] In my case, Debian. So, each time I need to update the entries, I need to do that from Debian [17:38] nope [17:38] That is fine for the user who understands the system. [17:39] If you install OSs, it's pretty good if you understand what happens when you do that [17:39] Otherwise, get it preinstalled [17:40] :) [17:40] That does not seem to be the way Ubuntu thinks [17:43] kubuntu's version of ubiquity looks nice [17:45] One thing I do agree with though is that Ubuntu's focus is on new equipment. [17:45] I find that reasonable. [17:58] kubuntu's installer on the time zone screen does let the user set a different region from the time zone. [18:04] I wonder if that is the same on the rest. [18:14] KDE (kubunu 13.10) does not seem signifcantly slower than xfce (Xubuntu/UbuntuStudio) [18:25] Finally getting my pulseaudio code fix in order, so I can request merges, etc [18:51] I started a new PPA for us. Before uploading to it, please talk to me first ppa:ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-sru-testing [18:51] For now, it contains the fixed pulseaudio packages for precise and quantal [18:52] Ok, the only thing I might use it for is -settings packages [18:54] len-k: It's only for SRUs [18:54] len-k: The existing PPA is meant for development release packages [18:54] Ah. ok... Ya I should read first [18:54] It is plainly obvous [18:56] len-k: I'l enable autobuilds for all our sources for that PPA [18:56] This one https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/devel [18:58] len-k: Recipy created for default-settings https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+recipe/ubuntustudio-default-settings-daily [18:58] Ok. Does that mean every time I push, or will I have to do some action [18:58] It builds daily now [18:58] Ah. great. [18:58] But, one can request a build directly too [18:59] However, you never know when the build will start [18:59] Daily is enough [18:59] Sometimes right away, sometimes it takes days even [18:59] I test stuff on my machine(s) before pushing. [18:59] I would use it for other people to test [19:00] Re DEs: I am assuming that there would be a session for each DE [19:01] Would they be like Studio-G, Studio-K and Studio-X or would you just let the DE name fall through [19:03] you mean, in sessions for each DE in settings? [19:03] I haven't yet looked at all at the settings package regarding these things [19:04] What I mean to ask was: sessions for each DE in settings? [19:05] I also enabled the auto build for our metas [19:05] Well where the stuff ends up doesn't matter, I was asking more about how you would present it to the user [19:05] What would the login screen look like to the user [19:06] That depends on which meta you install [19:06] Oh, you mean the look of it, stuff in the background, and so on? [19:06] Assume more than one [19:06] len-k: You ever tried installing more than one? [19:06] No I mean the session dropdown menu [19:07] these are all details that I think we'll get to once we will get to I think [19:07] But, I think for those: ubuntustudio-kde, ubuntustudio-gnome, etc [19:08] Ok that was what I meant [19:08] The default would be kde, gnome etc. In the same way we have xfce as well as ubuntustudio [19:09] would be good to get XFCE removed I think [19:09] Actually we should be able to remove xfce [19:09] Does Xubuntu have it? [19:09] Same thought at the same time... [19:09] Yeah :) [19:09]