[01:36] <zequence> OvenWerks: No, icons go with icons. If there's a problemw with how the menu works, I'd rather fix it upstream
[01:37] <zequence> Sorry to be repetetive on that, and it's perhaps not the time to do that actively
[01:37] <zequence> But, that should be the goal
[01:40] <zequence> Ah, PA just got into -proposed
[01:40] <zequence> So, time to test it, and give it the green flag
[01:42] <zequence> Luke is a ubuntustudio-contributor now
[02:41] <OvenWerks> zequence: so ardour should have their icon included in gnome-icons?
[02:42] <OvenWerks> An apps icons go in the apps package. The studio menu is like an app and should include it's own icons, needed to make it work.
[02:42] <OvenWerks> An icon theme is something that can be switched in an out
[02:43] <OvenWerks> an apps icons are there by default.
[02:43] <OvenWerks> Any icons that belong in /usr/share/icons/hicolor belong in the package of the app that uses them
[02:44] <OvenWerks> Our workflow menu merge should continue to work even if the user chooses another icon theme
[02:46] <OvenWerks> This becomes important when adding studio to another flavour.
[02:51] <zequence> We aren't shipping an app
[02:51] <OvenWerks> My sense is that gnome-icons should already have the icons we need, upstream. But our menu should not depend on a theme.
[02:52] <OvenWerks> our menu is the same kind of thing.
[02:52] <zequence> We're customizing the menu, which IMO, we should do as little as possible
[02:52] <OvenWerks> If I am running KDE and install some studio metas and want the studio menu, I should not have to load US-icon_theme to make it work
[02:53] <zequence> The settings depend on the icons
[02:54] <OvenWerks> Nor should the user need to select the US theme
[02:54] <zequence> No, they shouldn't
[02:54] <zequence> It's a flaw
[02:54] <OvenWerks> Right
[02:54] <zequence> IMO
[02:54] <OvenWerks> The way to fix the flaw is to include the needed icons with the menu.
[02:54] <zequence> Or, to redesign the menu, so it works with upstream
[02:55] <zequence> Or, develop a standalone package that is called ubuntustudio-menu
[02:55] <OvenWerks> That is the same as using the stock menu
[02:55] <OvenWerks> That is what I am doing
[02:55] <OvenWerks> There is already a package with that name
[02:55] <zequence> I know
[02:56] <OvenWerks> I have already started fixing it.
[02:56] <zequence> Have you thought about how you could push changes upstream yet?
[02:57] <zequence> And which changes would be relevant upstream
[02:57] <OvenWerks> First would be to get the extra categories
[02:57] <zequence> I suppose it might prove best to make all DEs work first, with as much generic work as possible
[02:58] <OvenWerks> I think the sub menus we have could make sense in any distro dedicated to these workflows or even only one of them.
[02:58] <zequence> I'd really appreciate if you could find solutions that work on all DEs
[02:58] <zequence> Not all DEs use menus
[02:58] <OvenWerks> That is exactly my plan
[02:58] <OvenWerks> I understand that. 
[02:59] <zequence> What unites all DEs are the categories
[02:59] <zequence> You know better than me, what unites the menu based DEs
[02:59] <OvenWerks> But those that do have a standard and a menu that merges fixes those at least.
[03:00] <OvenWerks> We could (it would be a lot of work) make a whole new set of desktop files too.
[03:01] <zequence> You mean for all the different applications?
[03:01] <OvenWerks> All the apps in our workflows... No I am not volumteering :)
[03:01] <zequence> It will need to be done
[03:01] <zequence> I can work on that, from Debian
[03:02] <OvenWerks> upstream would be better
[03:02] <OvenWerks> It would allow oru menus to be less custom too
[03:03] <OvenWerks> s/oru/our
[03:03] <zequence> Then it's the best path
[03:03] <OvenWerks> The parts of our menu that require heavy customization are done.
[03:04] <zequence> The XFCE menu, or the menus for all DEs?
[03:04] <OvenWerks> For all xdg compliant menus
[03:04] <OvenWerks> I have it working on KDE here
[03:05] <OvenWerks> I have a lubuntu copy I will try it on too
[03:05] <OvenWerks> Because it is a small menu on it's own, it could also be used on it's own on a menuless desktop as well
[03:06] <OvenWerks> using one of the many small pannels for example
[03:06] <OvenWerks> I don't know if that is a good idea or not though
[03:08] <zequence> I can have a quick test with lxde and also cinnamon to see how it works
[03:09] <OvenWerks> That is why I want to have a package
[03:09] <OvenWerks> installing a list of files manually is no fun.
[03:10] <zequence> It would be better in deed to have the menu on its own
[03:11] <OvenWerks> My plan is to be able to leave the stock menu in any DE alone and just add our workflows
[03:11] <OvenWerks> In the same way wine adds their little menu.
[03:13] <OvenWerks> It would mean loosing anything I have done on settings, and the set of apps at the top of our xfce menu... but it means less up keep.
[03:14] <OvenWerks> I think one of the things xfce has been working has been cleaning settings up anyway.
[03:14] <zequence> PA checks out. I gave it the green flag. Hopefully it'll be in -updates within the week
[03:14] <OvenWerks> Or we can use xubuntu's menu
[03:14] <OvenWerks> is that for 12.04
[03:14] <OvenWerks> ?
[03:14] <zequence> 12.04 and 12.10
[03:14] <OvenWerks> good
[03:15] <OvenWerks> zequence: when It is easy to install our metas with the other flavours, I would like to do some performance testing and comparing.
[03:16] <zequence> Let's make sure the categories are really well though out in a couple of months, and I can do the work on changing the desktop files upstream
[03:16] <OvenWerks> So far, on this machine, KDE (kubuntu) does better than the studio ISO
[03:17] <zequence> That might be interesting for the people with older machines, so perhaps start a wiki page about that. Would be best to get more machines involved in testing too before release, on that particular subject
[03:18] <zequence> If we find that one DE is best for older machines, it could be recommended
[03:18] <zequence> Or, a set of DEs
[03:18] <OvenWerks> Ya, one would expect lxde to be best for that, but I will see.
[03:19] <OvenWerks> is zeinty common to all the flavours?
[03:20] <zequence> What's that?
[03:20] <OvenWerks> I am thinking of using it to make a studio meta installer.
[03:20] <OvenWerks> it is a dialog tool for scripting.
[03:20] <OvenWerks> like xmessage, but with more options.
[03:21] <zequence> I'd like to see what it is before you do any actual work on that
[03:21] <OvenWerks> It doesn't need extra libs like python does.
[03:21] <zequence> The choice of tools should be something that works best with the Debian installation
[03:21] <zequence> Could be just a simple bash script
[03:21] <OvenWerks> I am doing it for my use. If you like it I have no problem with it being used else where
[03:23] <OvenWerks> I am realizing testing would be so much easier If I have a tool.
[03:24] <OvenWerks> I have found out that kubuntu has their whole own section of ubiquity and the distro upgrader with non-gtk libs.
[03:24] <OvenWerks> I don't want to follow that.
[03:25] <zequence> OvenWerks: Here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DesktopEnvironmentTesting
[03:25] <OvenWerks> I don't want to load extra gtk libs on a kde system either... though I guess some of our apps will anyway.
[03:26] <OvenWerks> OK, That is the place to add results and things to test.
[03:27] <zequence> Time for breakfest, and then school.
[03:27] <OvenWerks> Enjoy
[14:01] <OvenWerks> zequence: on Kubuntu, pulse seems to do an auto fallover to jack sink if the defaukt is busy... or maybe just because jacksink is there. It pops a notice up with an option to decline that action. Nice.
[14:53] <zequence> Someone doing a Strokes cover using Ubuntu Studio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxieG2YXczk
[14:55] <zequence> He's done a few covers like that
[14:55] <holstein> i was thinking some kind of cover page ;)
[14:55] <holstein> nice video work too
[14:56] <zequence> I suppose Ubuntu Studio would work for that too
[15:00] <zequence> This one was cool. Too bad about the xruns. Guess he didn't have any decent kernel (if he wasn't using a PPA) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfiU6fCo48Q
[15:00] <zequence> I have to try using a vocoder some time
[15:01] <zequence> A bit nostalgic now to see the old Gnome2 desktop with the old theme
[15:02] <holstein> i know
[15:03] <zequence> There's an autogenerated channel for Ubuntu Studio here https://www.youtube.com/channel/HCkGK6Zv5-b0I/feed?filter=2
[15:04] <zequence> I'm setting up a channel for us, as soon as I get ownership of the G+ page, which I want to link it to
[15:04] <zequence> Would be good to do a couple of videos ourselves
[15:08] <holstein> yup.. tutorials
[16:21] <zequence> OvenWerks: I would think pulseaudio works the same way on all DEs
[16:21] <zequence> Just that KDE has different gui controls for it
[19:30] <holstein> i have to say, i havent upgraded my studio machine since i installed it
[19:30] <holstein> i figured, what the hey.. i bet its OK now to just upgrade
[19:31] <holstein> i will go back to *never* upgrading my studio production machine again
[19:31] <holstein> i mean, dont get me wrong, im sure its an nvidia thing.. but still.. its a drag
[19:33] <zequence> holstein: What happened?
[19:34] <zequence> a studio machine that works, I never upgrade either
[19:34] <holstein> well, i rebooted into only one screen of my dual head.. with just half a panel
[19:34] <holstein> i went and setup nvidia settings again, and i have the dual head again.. but one monitor is half the resolution it was before
[19:35] <holstein> so, i most recently tried using the line from the old xorg with the resolutions in the newer one.. and now, i just have the boot logo stuck on both screens
[19:35] <holstein> i tried booting an older kernel... i suppose i can downgrade the nvidia driver
[19:36] <holstein> i like the "appliance" approach
[19:36] <holstein> i thought the newer kernel might be "better" or something
[19:36] <holstein> at least i did it *after* getting some work done
[19:37] <zequence> those kernels have pretty big changelogs, and you rarely see that much fixes done to any piece of software in such a short time
[19:38] <holstein> thats why i thought booting the older kernel would "fix" it
[19:38] <zequence> But, who benefits? Hard to say. Should not cause nvidia regressions though
[19:38] <holstein> tbh, ive *always* had issues like this with dual head on the studio machin
[19:38] <holstein> machine
[19:38] <holstein> intel.. amd.. whatever
[19:39] <holstein> i just got in the habit of not upgrading
[19:39] <holstein> and, i just remembered why ;)
[20:07] <OvenWerks> holstein: hard drives are cheap. I buy a new one for the new install. I have three versions of ubuntustudio on different drives.
[20:13] <holstein> OvenWerks: oh, i have 3 installs on here
[20:13] <holstein> the 10.04 ubuntustudio, a testing partition, and my 12.04 production area.. which is the one that i "broke"
[20:14] <holstein> i added a ppa to try newer versions of nvidia
[20:14] <holstein> i'll just get a knoppix live CD and use it to create the resolution
[20:14] <holstein> i just shouldnt have to
[20:16] <OvenWerks> Ya, I have been surprised that kubuntu seems to run better than our own xfce
[20:16] <holstein> i hope this is not DE releaste.. i didnt even think about that
[20:16] <OvenWerks> Video in particular
[20:16] <holstein> related*
[20:16] <holstein> yeah, it would be nice to get falk in here and do the KDE stuff
[20:16] <OvenWerks> I am not so sure.
[20:17] <OvenWerks> KDE runs with our metas pretty good as is.
[20:18] <OvenWerks> I want to try doing the same with xubuntu, to see if it is the same if that runs better then some of our system settings are off
[20:26] <holstein> lol
[20:26] <holstein> that would be interesting
[20:26] <holstein> to say the least
[20:27] <OvenWerks> Sometimes settings that work with one kernel (I think we tried them at 3.1 or 3.5) don't work so well with another
[20:32] <holstein> i know, but i booted my older kernel and tested
[20:32] <holstein> its odd
[20:33] <holstein> its like the nvidia driver negated the resolution i need
[20:33] <holstein> and, it *was* running on there
[20:46] <OvenWerks> holstein: in case you missed it, I am working on a menu that should work with any DE (that is xdg compliant). With the idea that a user could just install some metas on top of any Ubuntu flavour and go.
[20:46] <holstein> OvenWerks: i think thats a great idea
[20:46] <holstein> OvenWerks: let me know if i can test it somewhere.. mabye openbox/lxde
[20:47] <OvenWerks> I am pretty sure I could do that with KDE, xfce, lxde etc. Gnome session should work but the menu may not show same with unity.
[20:48] <OvenWerks> (I have it working with KDE now, but it was a manual install)
[20:50] <OvenWerks> Luke is working on Cinnamon as well
[22:40] <madeinkobaia> For those who's on board, I salute you : )