[02:31] <OvenWerks> zequence: loading ubuntustudio metas to lubuntu pulls in a lot of libs.
[03:58] <OvenWerks> lubuntu does n't have PA by default... US metas add it though :)
[03:59] <OvenWerks> However I don't think it would run by default. The user would have to add it to the auto start list on their own
[05:26] <OvenWerks> Weird, when I installed lubuntu, I told it to put grub on /sdc, but when I installed the lowlatency kernel, it put grub somewhere else. (sda?)
[05:27] <OvenWerks> on reboot, pulse runs with session. So installing the US metas makes pulse the sound server if the user wants it or not :P
[05:32] <OvenWerks> Ack. Pulse gets installed and runs... but no pavucontrol.
[06:01] <OvenWerks> zequence: with reguard to jerky and smooth video.
[06:02] <OvenWerks> I had mentioned that US seemed to be jerky and KDE was not.
[06:04] <OvenWerks> Did some further testing. Lubuntu is fine, a fresh install of US 13.10 is fine too. The one that is bad is the P install, updated to Q then to R. I don't know if upgrading to S would fix anything though.
[06:05] <OvenWerks> Tomorrow I will try upgrading this to S and see if it gets any better.
[06:08] <OvenWerks> All tests were with a 3.8.0 kernel, lowlatency, same video app, same video.
[06:13] <OvenWerks> Hang on... this is weird. my 12.04 that was upgraded to 13.04 has 3.8.0-22 but all the 13.10 installs have 3.8.0-19
[06:14] <OvenWerks> The generic kernel for 13.10 is 3.9.0-2 BTW
[06:14] <OvenWerks> Something is strange with our kernels.
[06:17] <OvenWerks> We seem to have gone back a few kernels for Saucy
[06:18] <OvenWerks> I guess I will also have to try a straight up Raring install as well.
[06:22] <OvenWerks> holstein: ^^^ it looks like the performance problems are upgrade related or one version of the kernel.
[15:36] <zequence> OvenWerks: saucy doesn't have SRU updates for the kernel
[15:36] <zequence> OvenWerks: Currently, no one is maintaining the development release of the kernel for saucy
[15:36] <zequence> It's updated a little now and then
[15:37] <zequence> I'm overtaking maintanenace of it this cycle
[15:37] <zequence> OvenWerks: And about jerky video - it makes little sense comparing different DEs on different releases, don't you think?
[15:38] <zequence> And also, if one really wants to find out difference in performance, make a comprehensive test, perform it, gather data - then decide what is actually going on
[15:38] <zequence> Things that happen on one machine is not saying much in any case
[15:53] <zequence> besides, saucy should be using 3.9 by now
[16:01] <madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
[19:49] <OvenWerks> zequence: I thought it was the same kernel, but it is not. Most of my tests were same release. All of the 13.10 installs work fine (including ubuntustudio) which makes sense.
[19:51] <OvenWerks> I have heard other complaints about 3.8 as well.
[19:53] <OvenWerks> So, I will try on the bad install, installing the older kernel that Saucy installs. I will try upgrading to 13.10. I will try a new raring install.
[19:54] <OvenWerks> If I get the same thing just with R or just with that kernel, Fine. It is easy enough to avoid one kernel.... and Saucy seems to be fine.
[19:55] <OvenWerks> The big thing I have learned is that DE makes not much difference. I think the KDE devs have done some work since I last used it. Good stuff.
[19:56] <OvenWerks> I really would like to try Gnome shell as well, if I can get it to run... even if I have to tweak it a bit before I can login.
[19:57] <zequence> My experience is the same. DE doesn't matter much for performance. Nothing does, except kernel and certain drivers. Like the graphic driver.
[19:57] <zequence> Bloated desktop, or minimal. Not much of a difference
[19:57] <zequence> And that's a good thing
[19:58] <zequence> Cause, that means, there's not much you need to do in order to tune a system for low latency
[19:58] <zequence> Of course, CPU usage might be worse on bloated desktos
[19:58] <zequence> But, it won't cause xruns, until you maximize CPU usage
[19:58] <zequence> rt is rt
[19:58] <OvenWerks> Right
[20:01] <zequence> For someone who wants to install a system for a very specific use case, like a studio recording/mixing system, then there might be cause for wanting to customize it
[20:01] <zequence> or a live processing system
[20:01] <OvenWerks> Are we expecting a 3.9 LL kernel for 13.10?
[20:01] <zequence> I don't know what version will be final release. Maybe 3.10. I will be taking over maintenance soon though
[20:01] <OvenWerks> (generic is 3.9 just now.)
[20:02] <OvenWerks> Ah, I had heard about some changes to how HW is handled as of 3.9
[20:02] <zequence> A new kernel version is released about every 3 months
[20:02] <OvenWerks> But I have had no trouble.
[20:02] <zequence> Usually, Ubuntu goes with whatever is the latest stable bversion
[20:03] <zequence> 3.10 is RC right now
[20:03] <zequence> Once it's released, it'll end up in Ubuntu tooo
[20:03] <zequence> So, 13.10 might even be including 3.11 by final release
[20:04] <OvenWerks> OK
[20:04] <zequence> The vanilla 3.8 kernel has now reached EOLÖ
[20:04] <zequence> EOL*
[20:04] <OvenWerks> That will make some people in the audio world happy.
[20:05] <zequence> You can see the current kernels here https://www.kernel.org/
[20:06] <OvenWerks> Looking at lubuntu, I think adding Studio to it will make it a lot less "light"/"Lite"
[20:07] <OvenWerks> Lubuntu relies on having light applications as well as the desktop.
[20:08] <OvenWerks> I think that there may be some audio workflows where it will fit, but suspect some video workflows will not gain anything.
[20:09] <zequence> I'm not aware of any other processes that would be added to Lubuntu, except pulseaudio
[20:11] <zequence> libraries yes, but processes and services that would start when you boot the system
[20:16] <OvenWerks> I have found that when I start kdenlive it starts a number of KDE services. They do not stop when kdenlive stops.
[20:16] <OvenWerks> This is true in xfce as well
[20:17] <OvenWerks> I don't know that this is a problem or not.
[20:18] <OvenWerks> I kind of expect that someone who likes kdenlive might also like the KDE desktop.
[20:18] <zequence> I'm sure the number of processes could increase, if you start up a whole range of applications. But, there's no way around that. If you just use LXDE, and Kdenlive, then that's what will happen. 
[20:18] <zequence> Why?
[20:19] <zequence> kdenlive is one of the most popular video editors on Linux, and doesn't stop people from installing it, who have no interest in KDE
[20:19] <OvenWerks> More a matter of recomending a good install for any given workflow
[20:19] <zequence> OvenWerks: Are you about to rank applications now?
[20:19] <OvenWerks> No :)
[20:19] <zequence> After a set of rules you put up, on performance, usability, etc
[20:20] <zequence> Adding the studio metas won't make any system less minimal. Aside from if you think PA is breaking that. This is at least my estimation so far. 
[20:21] <zequence> What we could do however, is allow for the user to select metas during installation
[20:21] <zequence> And for audio, we should have a core meta too
[20:21] <OvenWerks> I think people buy machines based on what they want to do with them. Someone who feels they "require" a light system is not likely to do video editing.
[20:21] <zequence> One which only includes linux-lowlatency and jack, basically
[20:22] <OvenWerks> Having a meta that has lowlatency would be good.
[20:22] <zequence> We already have the meta linux-lowlatency
[20:22] <OvenWerks> It would be nice if it adds a rule to grub to default to that kernel too.
[20:22] <zequence> But, I mean, for the core audio components
[20:23] <OvenWerks> Ya, I don't know if there are any other of our workflows that need it.
[20:23] <zequence> So that when you install, you can decide not to install the whole range of applications, if you don't want them
[20:24] <OvenWerks> If we are adding Studio to another install, that should be automatic.
[20:24] <zequence> I'm not following..
[20:24] <OvenWerks> Making it work with our iso and still allowing the live session to showcase all the workflows might be harder.
[20:25] <OvenWerks> If someone installs Ubuntu desktop and then installs our metas, they will only install the metas they want. So that part sortself out.
[20:25] <OvenWerks> *sorts itself
[20:26] <zequence> Yeah, that's why we have them split
[20:26] <zequence> Otherwise, we would just have had a meta called "ubuntustudio"
[20:26] <OvenWerks> Right.
[20:29] <OvenWerks> To work with the live ISO, we have to tell the seeds to show everything in the live session but not install it all. Which we can do. But then to select a workflow to install there needs to be some way of changing the stuff that will install, or include extra packages for later instalation.
[20:29] <zequence> Yes, we need to do some ubiquity coding for that. python scripting
[20:30] <zequence> It's been a plan since last release, to add the meta options
[20:30] <zequence> I'm going to have a look at that later on
[20:30] <OvenWerks> Talked about since the first live ISO
[20:31] <zequence> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-s-installer
[20:33] <OvenWerks> I have learned a little python... enough I can make something that works, but not enough to take something already made and understand what the other dev was doing and how I can change it.
[20:34] <OvenWerks> What they call "enough to be dangerous".
[20:36] <OvenWerks> Anyway, I am going to boot to 3.8.0-19 on this machine to see if that makes any difference.
[20:37] <zequence> I like that saying. We should all know enough to be dangerous
[20:49] <OvenWerks> moving back to the 3.8.0-19 kernel did not improve things.
[20:50] <OvenWerks> I am either seeing a raring problem or an upgrade problem.
[20:54] <OvenWerks> I will see if upgrading to saucy still adds a generic kernel while I am at it.
[20:55] <OvenWerks> Yes it will.
[20:56] <DarkEra> i removed those generic kernels but didn't have the time to check in again for updates
[20:56] <OvenWerks> From what I have seen, the generics kernel just shows up when upgrading.
[20:57] <OvenWerks> I have never had one show up on me when doing a fresh install
[20:57] <DarkEra> so a upgrade from raring to saucy causes it then
[20:57] <OvenWerks> yes.
[20:57] <OvenWerks> upgrade from precise to quantal does not
[20:58] <OvenWerks> upgrade from quantal to raring does
[20:58] <OvenWerks> and from raring to saucy does
[20:59] <OvenWerks> Something has changed in the upgrade script or in one of the depends in a package we depend on.
[20:59] <OvenWerks> We must have done something in our metas to stop it showing up on the ISO though.
[21:00] <OvenWerks> But I don't see it black listed
[21:04] <OvenWerks> we should be able to go through the changes made to the upgrade script/settings during quantal.
[21:06] <zequence> http://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/200-libby-clark/721494-linux-thermal-daemon-monitors-and-controls-temperature-in-tablets-laptops
[21:10] <OvenWerks> sounds great.
[21:10] <OvenWerks> over heated GPUs is supposedly the biggest kill in those.
[21:11] <OvenWerks> A popup notice: "vacuum out your machine dummy" might help too.
[21:12] <zequence> manufacturers could make that a lot easier too
[21:12] <OvenWerks> might sell less
[21:12] <zequence> Some laptops, if you want to clean them from dust, you have to open the whole thing. And, it's not usually an easy thing to do
[21:13] <zequence> I have one, where I just need to open a section
[21:13] <zequence> One could even create a module for just the dust. Open this, clean it, close it.
[21:13] <DarkEra> i my case i need to open the bottom panel entirely
[21:15] <zequence> If you ask me, most engineers and designers are pretty mediocre, and lazy
[21:15] <zequence> Or, their bosses are less than smart
[21:15] <DarkEra> possibly :D
[21:18] <DarkEra> i hope this laptop continues to work for a few more years, i bought it somewhere in june 2008
[21:19] <OvenWerks> mine is from 2010 or so. First install was 10.04
[21:19] <DarkEra> first install on this machine was 8.04
[21:20] <DarkEra> on the packard bell i had i started with 7.04
[21:20] <DarkEra> that laptop died after 3 years
[21:20] <DarkEra> bought it in 2005
[21:21] <OvenWerks> I still have an NEC from pre2000, pentium 360mhz
[21:22] <OvenWerks> Works as good as it ever did
[21:22] <DarkEra> cool :)
[21:22] <OvenWerks> Battery is long gone of course.
[21:22] <OvenWerks> Has an opening on the side for a thing called a "floppy"
[21:23] <DarkEra> i worked with floppies on school in the '90s
[21:24] <OvenWerks> I still remember installing an OS from a scack of floppies.
[21:24] <OvenWerks> *stack
[21:24] <OvenWerks> 6 for DRdos
[22:40] <OvenWerks> zequence: my video problems seem to be upgrade related
[22:41] <OvenWerks> If I install Saucy from ISO, video is fine.
[22:41] <OvenWerks> If I upgrade there, no good