[00:06] <cjwatson> But if so that was because it didn't make sense to copy, not necessarily that it didn't make sense to set it at all
[01:37] <wgrant> cjwatson: Sure, just saying it wouldn't work in the current code.
[03:45] <zequence> Any way to learn about ISO download statistics?
[03:45] <zequence> I'd be interested in comparing Ubuntu Studio with others
[03:48] <ScottK> zequence: Since the ISOs are all available via torrents, there's really no knowing.
[03:49] <zequence> ScottK: The direct downloads would still give you an idea of proportions
[03:49] <zequence> I realize actual amounts don't say much
[03:49] <ScottK> Only if the direct download versus torrent ratios are the same.
[03:50] <zequence> It would still tell me something, I think
[03:50] <ScottK> If you want some publicly available information to get an idea of ratios, look up the popcon data for the various metapackages.
[03:50] <zequence> any other methods for comparing flavor popularity?
[03:51] <zequence> popcon?
[03:51] <ScottK> Other than popcon (which has it's own limitations) no.
[03:51] <ScottK> Short for "populairity contest".
[03:51] <zequence> ah http://popcon.ubuntu.com/
[03:51] <zequence> ScottK: Thanks
[03:51] <ScottK> For people that opt-in, it send information about what packages they have installed.
[03:51] <ScottK> You're welcome.
[04:36] <infinity> ScottK: popcon is self-selecting for the nerdier/ricer crowd, much like distrowatch stats.
[04:37] <ScottK> infinity: That's true.  It's gone tons of problems, but I don't know of better, public data.
[04:37] <infinity> ScottK: But, I suppose, given that the "nerd/ricer" crowd is probably fairly well distributed among all the flavours that are "anything but Ubuntu itself", it might even out.
[04:40] <ScottK> Although Kubuntu has some substantial organizational deployments that I don't think the other non-Canonical flavors have.  I'm sure they don't have popcon on.
[04:41] <infinity> Yeah.  I was going to say the same for edubuntu.
[04:42] <infinity> Anyhow, we can occasionally dig out fun stats from cdimage and archive logs, but even those are Not A Metric(tm), which is why we try to avoid telling the world about them.
[04:42] <infinity> Cause, who needs the sort of silly bickering that distrowatch causes in our own little family of flavours? :P
[05:16] <ScottK> infinity: You aren't releasing any SRUs just now are you?  (I am and I don't want to do double)
[05:35] <ScottK> Done
[05:45] <infinity> ScottK: I wasn't, no.
[05:45] <ScottK> OK.  I'm all done now.
[05:46] <ScottK> I figured if I waited until the next publisher run, it'd be safe.
=== doko_ is now known as doko
=== mmrazik is now known as mmrazik|lunch
=== mmrazik|lunch is now known as mmrazik
[11:57] <skaet> bdmurray,   was starting through the checklist for MilestoneProcess,  and "DevelReleaseAnnouncement" link on the wiki is null page.    More details?
[12:07] <cjwatson> It's a file name, not a wiki page name.  I've unlinkified it
[12:22] <apw> i am unable to figure out why linux-grouper is sitting in -proposed, britney has done two runs (at least) over it and still seems to think it is out of date, when from what i can see it is not in the archive
[12:22] <apw> keen to figure out if i am missing something or if britney is unhappy
[12:32] <skaet> cjwatson, thanks.
[12:33] <cjwatson> apw: looking
[12:35] <ogra_> cjwatson, so there was just a discussion on #phablet ... do we already have any idea how we will integrate the installation of click packages into cdimage builds ?
[12:35] <ogra_> seems thats a july target ...
[12:36] <cjwatson> ogra_: not yet, on my list somewhere
[12:36] <cjwatson> it clearly has to happen
[12:36] <ogra_> heh, yeah, but it doesnt even seem to be clear where click packages will eventually live
[12:36] <cjwatson> ogra_: beuno is managing the server side
[12:36] <ogra_> i was guessing a blessed archive like partner
[12:37] <cjwatson> apw: so I think the reason this is unusual is that there's -3.5 in release, and then a -3.7 in proposed that didn't migrate before -4.x landed
[12:37] <cjwatson> ogra_: custom server, not LP
[12:37] <ogra_> since we cant ship preinstalled PPAs
[12:37] <ogra_> ah, k
[12:37] <ogra_> so the PPA discussion is out of question, good
[12:38] <rtg_> cjwatson, yeah, the grouper upload series have been stalled by britney for a couple of valid reasons along the way. I _think_ it should be correct now.
[12:38] <cjwatson> apw,rtg_: I've NBS-removed those stale binaries from -proposed now; should migrate in the proposed-migration after the next publisher run
[12:39] <rtg_> cjwatson, cool, thanks. apw ^^
[12:43] <ogra_> cjwatson, oh, and if you have a spare minute at some point, there are still the machine accounts for rsalveti and sergiusens pending on nusakan i think
[12:43]  * ogra_ always forgets about that 
[12:43] <sergiusens> \o/
[12:46] <sergiusens> cjwatson: hey last night I tried to build the deb and with python3 I get error: error in setup.cfg: command 'build' has no such option 'pod2man' ... worked fine with 2... so was wondering what dep I'm missing (which perhaps seems to be missing in Build-Depends)
[12:47] <sergiusens> cjwatson: missed the important piece lp:click-packages was what I tried to bzr bd
[12:50] <apw> cjwatson, ahh so until someone cleans up NBS britney will always hold a kernel
[13:03] <cjwatson> rsalveti,sergiusens: added you both to ~ubuntu-cdimage in LP, and filed an RT to get you machine access.  Please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/CDImageSetup
[13:04] <rsalveti> cjwatson: great, thanks
[13:04] <cjwatson> sergiusens: WFM - can I have the full log?
[13:06] <cjwatson> sergiusens: shouldn't need any particular B-D, apart from python3-setuptools which is already there
[13:06] <cjwatson> apw: It's only in the case where there was a previous unmigrated upload in -proposed with a different ABI
[13:09] <sergiusens> cjwatson: thanks, and  here's the log: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5761390/
[13:10] <apw> cjwatson, ahh subtle thanks for the explanation
[13:12] <cjwatson> sergiusens: huh, yeah, I see it in sbuild ...
[13:13] <phillw> cjwatson: is there a link to view what is the seed file for the saucy lubuntu iso's ?
[13:14] <cjwatson> phillw: bzr co lp:~lubuntu-dev/seeds/lubuntu.saucy
[13:14] <cjwatson> sorry
[13:14] <cjwatson> bzr co lp:~lubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/lubuntu.saucy
[13:16] <phillw> thanks!
=== jbicha is now known as Guest30774
=== Guest30774 is now known as jbich_
=== jbich_ is now known as jbicha_
[13:51] <cjwatson> sergiusens: *mutter* stupid incomprehensible setuptools bugs
[13:51] <cjwatson> working on it ...
[13:53] <sergiusens> ack
[13:57] <cjwatson> sergiusens: Ah, got it.  r80
[14:01] <sergiusens> great, built fine
[14:01] <cjwatson> But talk about an obscure way to present that error.
[14:54] <infinity> barry: The lsb in the precise queue wasn't good enough for you? :P
[14:56] <Laney> LSB_ME_HARDER
[14:58] <barry> infinity: crap, i even thought i searched the queue and didn't see it
[14:58] <infinity> barry: I'll eenie meenie miney and reject one of them in a bit.
[14:59] <barry> +1
=== medberry is now known as med_
[15:18] <phillw> on 7th June, https://code.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/lubuntu.saucy shows that chromium was replaced by firefox, but my install today is now installing chormium. Any ideas?
[15:19] <infinity> phillw: Which version of lubuntu-desktop is installed?
[15:19] <infinity> phillw: gilir only uploaded the new meta 15h ago.
[15:20] <phillw> infinity: ahh, okies. I thought the seed was read from there. I'll await today's cron build. Thanks!
[15:33] <cjwatson> rsalveti,sergiusens: you should have ssh access to nusakan and 'sudo -u cdimage -i' now
[15:33] <cjwatson> (RT#62315)
[15:33] <jbicha_> is there a plan for Alpha1 next week?
[15:34] <rsalveti> cjwatson: thanks!
[15:34] <sergiusens> cjwatson: thanks
[15:36] <ogra_> yay
[15:46] <jbicha_> phillw: see also http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/lubuntu.saucy/desktop which runs multiple times daily
[15:51] <phillw> thanks
[15:51] <phillw> jbicha_: lubuntu will be running Alpha1
[15:52] <jbicha_> you mean you guys are in charge of the release? or just participating? :)
=== mmrazik is now known as mmrazik|afk
[15:53] <infinity> jbicha_: There's a plan for me to send an email about Alpha being a week later, as we agreed at UDS and I forgot to change the schedule. :/
[15:54] <infinity> jbicha_: I'll get that out today, I'm just context switching between a few things.
[15:54] <jbicha_> ah ok I didn't realize the wiki wasn't updated
[15:55] <jbicha_> how much work will it be for flavors if they choose to participate in an Alpha?
[15:56] <infinity> jbicha_: Testing, helping with release notes, the usual.
[15:56] <jbicha_> it would be cool if releasing an alpha would help us get testing as opposed to having to do it all ourselves before the release
[15:56] <infinity> jbicha_: It's less about how much work it'll be for the flavours, and more about how much work it shouldn't be for the people not participating. :)
[15:59] <phillw> infinity: yeah, if you can get the email out! I've already scheduled meetings for just before each of the milestones :)
[16:01] <stgraber> infinity: ah good, that's one more week for me to finally land the self-rebuild feature on nusakan then (kind of forgot about alpha1 so didn't prioritize accordingly) ;)
[16:01] <infinity> stgraber: Oh shiny, if that lands in time, we can put it through its paces.
[16:02] <infinity> stgraber: That might mean you should sign up for the engineering task on A1 if you haven't already. :P
[16:02] <infinity> Oh look, you did.
[16:03] <stgraber> infinity: that's precisely why I signed up for the engineering side of things for A1 :)
[16:04] <infinity> Riddell: I notice you signed up for the release notes task for A3 which is, conveniently, the Alpha I'm about to drop from the schedule.  How would you feel about doing that for A1 or A2 instead?
[16:05] <phillw> infinity: A3 is going? lubuntu were planning not to do A2 as it is too close to the A3 ?!!
[16:06] <infinity> phillw: That's why A3 is going away.  We're spreading them out a bit to match the previous release.
[16:06] <stgraber> phillw: yeah, A3 made it to the schedule by mistake, A1 and A2 will be moved slightly to have more spaces between them (similar to what we had for raring)
[16:07] <phillw> stgraber: that's fine. the lubuntu testers asked for approx one milestone each month, which is why A2 was not going to be tested.
[16:07] <cjwatson> phillw: What happened here was that the saucy schedule was erroneously based on something a bit more like quantal's - the changes made in raring were mistakenly not applied to it
[16:07] <cjwatson> (IOW, creating schedules in advance has turned out to be a bad idea)
[16:07] <Riddell> infinity: :)
[16:07] <Riddell> infinity: why are you dropping A3?
[16:08] <phillw> that's fine! if it can be updated today, I can let our testers know and re-do the time table for the general meetings.
[16:09] <cjwatson> Riddell: It wasn't meant to be there.  Compare https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
[16:09] <Riddell> yep, just read
[16:10] <Riddell> got a new date for alpha 2?
[16:12] <Riddell> infinity: anyway yes you can move me to alpha 2
[16:16] <bdmurray> using sru-release "sru-release -n -s precise nagios-nrpe" indicates it would copy the package to precise-security.  I suspect this is fine as one bug being fixed has a CVE but I just wanted to confirm.
[16:18] <infinity> bdmurray: Err, it will because of the '-s'
[16:19] <infinity> bdmurray: But if was built in proposed, no, it can't be released to security.
[16:21] <bdmurray> hrm, I find the meaning of the -s switch in the ubuntu-archive-tools to be confusing
[16:21] <bdmurray> It just seems to be inconsistently used
[16:23] <cjwatson> It's sometimes suite and sometimes series.  In most of the ones I wrote it's suite ...
[16:23] <cjwatson> But there are cases where suite isn't really all that appropriate
[16:24] <infinity> Except that in sru-release, it's neither suite or series, which leads to this problem.
[16:25] <infinity> It should probably be replaced with --security or sometihng, so people don't eff it up.
[16:30] <cjwatson> infinity: Oh, yes, that's pretty scary
[16:31] <cjwatson> Indeed, we could just ditch the short option
[16:31] <cjwatson> ... done
[16:31] <bdmurray> thanks!
[16:43]  * infinity will now need to retrain his fingers, but probably a small price to pay.
[17:35] <bdmurray> cjwatson: speaking of long options shouldn't -y for change-override be --confirm-none not --confirm-all?
[17:38] <infinity> bdmurray: Hrm?  comfirm-all meaning "say yes to all questions".
[17:38] <infinity> --yes-me-harder
[17:38] <bdmurray> okay
[17:39] <cjwatson> Depends which way you read it, I guess
[17:39] <infinity> cjwatson: Yeah, I read it bdmurray's way after he asked.  Curious thing, this English.
[17:39] <infinity> (I've always read it the "right" way before
[17:39] <infinity> )
[17:49] <infinity> bdmurray: I just saw your film debut.  I don't think you get to criticize ubuntu-archive-tools for a few days.
[17:51] <bdmurray> infinity: heh. that's not actually my debut, I've done some previous work!
[17:51] <infinity> bdmurray: ;)
[17:55] <infinity> bdmurray: After you delivered your first line, I was all "that dude in the suit sounds just like Brian".
[18:12] <slangasek> infinity: <snort>
[18:26] <xnox> hm? i think I haven't seen that yet
[18:32] <phillw> infinity: sorry to nag, but how soon do you expect to have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule updated (I've got to re-schedule meetings and xubuntu have just had a meeting deciding to to partake in A1, A2 & A3 !) :)
[18:34] <infinity> phillw: It'll be done this afternoon/evening.
[18:35] <phillw> thanks
[18:47] <slangasek> xnox: you need to be following kees on g+ :)
[18:48] <xnox> slangasek: i think i have circled him recently.
[18:49] <slangasek> xnox: oh... then you need to convince kees to share with you ;)
[18:50] <Laney> an all star cast and crew
[18:52] <kenvandine> indeed
[19:01] <xnox> ahhh... please reshare it to me =)
[19:04] <Sarvatt> xnox: http://vimeo.com/68009319
[19:06] <xnox> =))))))) nice
[19:06] <xnox> is it #ingress inspired?
[19:17] <kees> xnox: nah, it's based on a tiny piece of a web comic. I needed something ultra short.
[19:18] <infinity> kees: Did you name-drop with Jeph when you asked him for permission?
[19:18] <infinity> kees: (Which I suppose would only work if you knew that he and I have known each other for well over a decade, hrm...)
[19:21] <infinity> Dearest Launchpad: Either accept or reject my copy, but don't just eat it and email me "nom nom nom" messages.  Thanks.
[19:22] <kees> infinity: nope, I didn't ask for permission. :)
[19:22] <kees> infinity: I had no idea you knew him!
[19:23] <kees> infinity: I posted it to the QC forum, though, so maybe he'll see it.
[19:25] <infinity> kees: Long and sordid past.  We met in NYC over a decade ago (back when he was still a music student, not a cartoonist), later ended up dating the same girl (at different times), etc.
[19:36] <kees> infinity: hah, funny :)
[20:10] <bdmurray> infinity: https://dogfood.launchpad.net/ubuntu/quantal/amd64/libxen-dev is the increasing number of publications expected because it is dogfood?
[20:13] <infinity> bdmurray: If you keep overriding it without the publisher ever running, yeah.
[20:13] <infinity> bdmurray: And dogfood's publisher isn't cronned.
[20:14] <bdmurray> infinity: okay, just wanted to make sure there wasn't something else wrong.
=== jbicha is now known as Guest26134
[22:49] <cjwatson> infinity: You know Jeph?  *fanboy*
[22:50] <infinity> cjwatson: I suspect my opinion of him is slightly lower than yours. ;)
[22:50] <infinity> cjwatson: But yes.
[22:52] <cjwatson> Familiarity breeds contempt, I'm sure :-)
[23:06] <bdmurray> cjwatson: were you going to talk to Launchpad devs about copyPackage and phased_update_percentage?
[23:07] <cjwatson> I wasn't sure whether wgrant talking here qualified as him having registered the discussion :)
[23:07] <cjwatson> I should probably file a bug, when I'm not two pints of beer + one cider the worse for wear
[23:08] <bdmurray> Oh, I missed him saying something
[23:08] <ScottK> infinity: So what are the planned dates (or where did this vUDS discussion get documented)?  Moving Alpha 1 a week slaps it right on top of KDE 4.11 Beta 2, which is why we put it where it is on the wiki after pgraner's call for inputs back in March: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2013-April/002361.html
[23:09] <ScottK> infinity: Could we please find a way not to recreate the problem with KDE 4.11 beta 2 that we already fixed once with KDE 4.11 beta 1.
[23:10] <wgrant> cjwatson, bdmurray: I've registered the discussion, but I'm not going to really do anything yet since AFAICT nobody knows what wants to be done. When someone has some idea, I'm all ears :)
[23:15] <infinity> ScottK: KDE 4.11 B2 is on the 26th, a day before the proposed A1 would release.  Is that really a problem?  You get to spin alphas and stabilise on 4.11b1 while people upload 4.11b2 to proposed and have it all land and break the world after A1 releases...
[23:16] <cjwatson> I think our consensus was that we wanted to be able to copy packages and set an initial phased_update_percentage for them in one go
[23:16] <ScottK> Except it's the same people doing both.
[23:16] <infinity> ScottK: Well, sure, but it's within a day.  They could upload a day later too, no?
[23:17] <ScottK> Sure.  Next time don't ask for inputs, just do whatever.  We'll manage.
[23:18] <infinity> ScottK: I'm trying to discuss this, not be a jerk about it.  But it seems that, either way, you'd be releasing A1 with 4.11b1 and then landing b2 afterward, all this does is slip b2 hitting the release pocket for a day.
[23:18] <ScottK> I mean it's pretty frustrating to be asked for inputs, go to trouble to coordinate them, get everyone to agree, and then be told that a month later there was a meeting that everyone forgot to mention the results of for a month.
[23:18] <infinity> ScottK: I guess I'm just trying to understand why that's problematic.
[23:19] <ScottK> For the week in question, I think we can either package KDE 4.11 beta 2 or do the Alpha.
[23:19] <ScottK> I doubt we'll get both done.
[23:20] <ScottK> We can just land the beta later, but it's all very frustrating.
[23:20] <ScottK> I don't understand why inputs were even requested.
[23:20] <cjwatson> I think we had some slack in alpha scheduling otherwise, didn't we?  I don't recall the vUDS discussion being very constrained on those.
[23:20] <infinity> ScottK: We can alternately drop A3 (as planned), but not move A1 and A2.  The big motivation for moving A1 and A2 by a week was also to have them align a bit better with end-of-month milestones, since having two competing sets of milestones would be a frustrating thing.
[23:21] <cjwatson> The end-of-month thing was a minor benefit, I thought.
[23:21] <cjwatson> Rather than the sole motivation.
[23:21] <ScottK> End of the month is irrelevant for those of us who don't care about it.
[23:21] <infinity> Well, everyone had different motivations.
[23:21] <ScottK> I'll let Riddell decide.
[23:21] <infinity> ScottK: I think it's fairly relevant to allow flavours to align, for when their packaging changes cause crossover issues, but maybe that's just me.
[23:22] <ScottK> I'm sufficiently frustrated from a process perspective I don't trust my judgment on is it a problem at the moment.
[23:22] <ScottK> Right, which is what I thought we got sorted back in march/april.
[23:22] <cjwatson> I must admit I had entirely missed the thread you point to
[23:23] <cjwatson> Don't know about others
[23:23] <infinity> For the record, these were the meeting notes I had completely forgotten to implement and mail out until today:
[23:23] <infinity> - Drop an alpha
[23:23] <infinity> - Move alpha1/2 to wk9/13
[23:23] <infinity> - Move FeatureFreeze to Beta1Freeze
[23:23] <infinity> - Move DocStringFreeze to FinalBetaFreeze
[23:23] <infinity> It was pretty... Sparse.
[23:24] <cjwatson> It was basically "let's not forget to apply changes from raring".
[23:24] <ScottK> I don't understand why this wasn't discussed when we were discussing the schedule.
[23:25] <cjwatson> I think we hadn't noticed that the draft schedule was weirdly more like quantal than raring.
[23:25] <ScottK> I need to go.  Please discuss the schedule with Riddell.
[23:25] <ScottK> OK.
[23:25] <cjwatson> It was a screwup.
[23:25] <ScottK> TTYL.
[23:27] <cjwatson> infinity: I think possibly the reasoning you're missing is that Kubuntu feels it important to be as early out the door as possible with new KDE releases
[23:28] <infinity> That's fair.  And we can keep A1 and A2 as they are.  I'm not hugely fussed about them.
[23:28] <cjwatson> So an alpha in the same week basically forces them a week later than they'd otherwise have been which means other distros get to get the jump on them
[23:28] <infinity> I'd argue that, to make the gaps a bit less weird, we might then want to move B1 a week earlier instead.
[23:28] <cjwatson> Where does that put it?
[23:28] <infinity> Which would also work out alright as far as lulls in the KDE schedule.
[23:28] <cjwatson> Or when, I suppose
[23:29] <infinity> That would pur freeze at Aug22 and release at Aug29.
[23:29] <infinity> KDE 4.11 releases on Aug14, and 4.11.1 releases on Sept3.
[23:29] <infinity> So nicely not competing.
[23:29] <phillw> A2 to A3 is too close, what date are you suggesting for the new A2 (replacing A3) ?
[23:29] <infinity> phillw: A3 is going away.
[23:30] <phillw> infinity: so A2 becomes A3 on that date?
[23:30] <cjwatson> So that puts feature freeze back where it originally was, I guess
[23:30] <infinity> phillw: No.
[23:30] <cjwatson> You might want to give folks warning of that :-)  But I don't think I have a problem with that
[23:31] <infinity> cjwatson: Well, FF and B1F should be the same freeze date.  It's just a question of moving one to meet the other, in one direction or the other.
[23:31] <cjwatson> Right, I realise
[23:31] <infinity> cjwatson: Given that we never moved FF after our discussion, I doubt anyone is/was counting on the later date.
[23:31] <cjwatson> True
[23:31] <stgraber> infinity: I've got to go now, not sure if I'll be back on IRC later tonight. If we do end up having A1 next week (after you're all done discussing this), can you make sure to send something to that regard to ubuntu-release@lists.u.c or at least PM me on IRC? Because if we're doing A1 next week I need to change my schedule for tomorrow from system-image stuff to cdimage self-respin stuff.
[23:32] <infinity> stgraber: Yeah, whatever we hash out, I'll mail out.
[23:32] <infinity> ScottK: *pokity poke*... I know you're gumpy, but come back. :)
[23:32] <infinity> ScottK: If we leave A1 and A2 alone, drop A3, and make B1 a week earlier, would that all work out for you?  It seems to align well with gaps in the KDE release schedule I'm looking at.
[23:35] <phillw> infinity: that'd be fine by lubuntu... one milestone / month :)
[23:56] <skellat> infinity: I just got back from the arts charity meeting where I'm attached as their PR flack.  Could you please send an e-mail about these milestone changes to those of us in Xubuntu land since we just had a meeting earlier today discussing opt-in/opt-out options?  Most of the scrollback above seems to make a good chunk of our meeting earlier today kinda moot and not longer valid.
[23:58] <skellat> infinity: My unofficial copy of the meeting notes are here if you want to view them on your own: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/skellat/XubuntuMeeting--2013-06-13