[02:25] Reminder of the meeting tomorrow, Thursday, June 13 at 15:00 UTC. [03:35] oh bother, that's the break-o-dawn meeting [03:35] (well, 8AM) [03:48] Yeah, I'll have to read scrollback... [03:51] About the LTS/normal subpoints, 1. Yes 2. No 3. No [06:00] Meeting in this channel? [06:00] Yes indeed. [09:02] Why does the default mouse theme not have a preview? [09:10] elfy, i've put up another xubuntu related manual test, would you mind proof-reading it for me? [13:59] :) hi [14:00] hi GridCube [14:09] meeting in 50mins, right? [14:09] yes [14:10] zequence, that's completely fine. do whatever you want with it (just keep attribution and i'm happy) [14:10] fix what? [14:11] knome: Wow. that reply was dealyed. Have you been on vacation? [14:11] zequence, at summer cottage since friday :) [14:11] o: knome @'ed himself! [14:11] yeah, guess he's changing the topic... === knome changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Daily Testing with results: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ [14:12] that's it [14:12] the summer has really started well up here in the north. hot days.. [14:12] o: knome de@'ed himself! [14:13] GridCube, is that a script or should i just slap you? :P [14:13] zequence, yes, though it rained quite a lot yesterday ;) [14:14] P: none of the above [14:16] knome: I think more rain might be coming soon. It was heading that way (was raining early today) [14:16] zequence, i've no idea. i haven't read/watched the news since friday :) [14:17] it's tough being disconnected from the collective [14:18] my vacation this year will be DebConf13 :P [14:18] s/tough/refreshing [14:18] very refreshing! [14:19] no computers, no internet, no stupid work things to think about... [14:19] knome: did you go fishing, or you just hanged around the house? [14:19] * micahg-work can't promise to be around for the whole meeting, but will try [14:20] same here [14:21] ochosi, you should be able to push a raring branch on your own for xubuntu-artwork [14:21] zequence, mostly hanged around. played board games, ate, went to sauna [14:21] just branch from the last raring commit [14:22] knome: Ah, yeas. sauna, and some fresh air [14:22] that's all you need! [14:23] i need to update packages [14:23] and eat something [14:23] brb [14:25] micahg-work: well i pushed a commit recently that isn't included in raring (at least not yet) [14:25] ochosi, that's fine, just keep pushing stuff there [14:25] I can branch raring later [14:25] ok [14:25] or you can [14:25] you mean saucy? [14:26] ochosi, no [14:26] ah right [14:26] devel release is trunk [14:26] yeah [14:26] ok, then i'll just keep pushing stuff there [14:58] morning [14:59] pleia2, hey! [14:59] #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting [14:59] Meeting started Thu Jun 13 14:59:14 2013 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [14:59] Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired [14:59] Hello [14:59] #chair pleia2 [14:59] Current chairs: knome pleia2 [14:59] * skellat is present for the meeting [15:00] hi [15:00] #topic Items carried on [15:00] no items carried on. [15:00] #topic Team updates [15:00] please use #info and #action for team updates [15:00] anybody has any news since the three nights of xubuntu? [15:01] yeah, some marketing [15:01] hey everyone :) [15:01] #info Contacted unixstickers.com and they're happy to do case badges :) plus send us some for free (instead of straight cash profit sharing) [15:02] \o/ [15:02] sounds good [15:02] knome: what kind of news are you looking for? :) [15:02] ochosi, team updates eg. "what have you done" ? [15:03] right [15:03] i fixed multi-monitor support of plymouth [15:03] they did ask that we promote them somehow, so we can chat about that later (link, blog post) [15:03] oh, sry pleia2 [15:03] no, go for it [15:03] * ochosi thought you were done [15:03] sorry :) [15:03] pleia2, we will definitely want to link them, otherwise it's hard for people to find those stickers :P [15:03] * pleia2 nods [15:03] pleia2, btw, would they do regular stickers as well? [15:03] #info Merge proposed for the seed to put apt-offline in. Bug placed to update the metapackage. Waiting for action on the merge which will then allow the metapackage update to happen later. [15:04] #info Improved multi-monitor support for our Plymouth theme [15:04] I've started doing some sponsored packaging on debian, learning the ropes [15:04] yay bluesabre [15:04] bluesabre, can you #info that? [15:04] #info Started a new icon-theme addon for our default icon theme that will make some of the toolbar-icons monochrome [15:04] knome: could do, only was focusing on casebadges for now since that's what we're struggling with quality-wise [15:05] #Manual testcases being created for Xubuntu apps [15:05] #info Greybird and Bluebird (from git) now support Gtk3.8 [15:05] #info Started doing some sponsored packaging on debian [15:05] #info Manual testcases being created for Xubuntu apps [15:05] #info LightDM GTK+ Greeter 1.6 released, probably not in repos yet [15:05] #info Autopilot testing being looked at by lderan [15:05] #info Got sponsored sync from Debian Experimental completed of apt-offline 1.3 to Ubuntu archive. 1.3 has been in experimental since January. Tested it for a while in my testing PPA and it did not explode so requested and received sync. [15:05] #info Trying to fix suspend and hibernate in light-locker, so we can use lightdm as lockscreen in Xubuntu and (finally) drop xscreensaver [15:06] so much good news! [15:06] yes! [15:06] woo \o/ [15:06] i should leave the team to work on things more often it seems :P [15:06] nah, finished those things weeks ago :P [15:06] haha [15:06] thanks for the support to have a break ;) [15:07] clearly the answer is fewer meetings :) [15:07] probably [15:07] anything else? [15:07] :( I like xscreensaver... [15:07] aww [15:07] #chair micahg-work [15:07] Current chairs: knome micahg-work pleia2 [15:07] * micahg-work doesn't need to be a chair [15:07] I won't miss the "omg fire" reactions from users [15:08] meetingology, no, but i usually add any team leads who are around as chairs. [15:08] knome: Error: "no," is not a valid command. [15:08] micahg-work too [15:08] #info Pondering what to do about the shift to chromium in the base Ubuntu seed. Will need to coordinate with Micah Gersten and Lionel LeFolgoc about possible doing an exclusion in the Xubuntu seed to ensure we keep Firefox in our install if we so choose instead of inheriting from the base. [15:08] #chair ochosi [15:08] Current chairs: knome micahg-work ochosi pleia2 [15:08] * micahg-work isn't even a team lead... [15:08] micahg-work: i don't like that it's impossible to change anything about xscreensaver [15:08] lot of chairs [15:08] haha [15:08] you are correct. [15:08] ochosi, what do you mean? [15:09] #chair skellat elfy lderan [15:09] Current chairs: elfy knome lderan micahg-work ochosi pleia2 skellat [15:09] :P [15:09] micahg-work: style-wise, you can't even remove the stupid xscreensaver-logo (the firery thing pleia2 mentioned) [15:09] micahg-work: and i'd argue that there is some (visual) consistency to using the login-screen as lock-screen [15:09] anyway... if we have broader issues, can we discuss them in "new items", or in smaller groups less officially after the meeting? [15:10] sure [15:10] #topic Announcements [15:10] #subtopic Xubuntu release team [15:10] https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-release [15:10] ochosi, sounds like a feature request for jwz? [15:10] There's now a Xubuntu release team [15:11] \o/ [15:11] this team is able to set images ready for release in the iso tracker [15:11] it will always consist of the XPL, the testing lead and one or two developers [15:12] sounds handy [15:12] basically it will need to be people who are aware of the state of the images near the (milestone) releases to be able to make informed decisions [15:13] so far i'm the only one in the team, but i'll add elfy today after we've officially agreed that my proposal is fine [15:14] is there anybody who disagrees with xubuntu release team being XPL + testing/QA lead + some developer(s) [15:14] (with arguments, please :P) [15:14] not me :) [15:14] nope sounds good to me [15:14] +1 [15:14] also, is there a developer (micah, sean) who would like to be in the team? [15:15] I'd like to be on it, but I am not an official "Xubuntu developer" yet [15:15] yes, i would say it would be good to have somebody with upload rights on the team [15:16] I'm not around enough during release time to be able to keep track of everything [15:16] if and as it seems bluesabre is getting them sooner or later, i wouldn't mind if bluesabre was the one in the team though [15:16] I don't think upload rights inherently matter [15:16] no, but it would be ++ [15:16] you can't "upload" images [15:16] no, but you can upload things that can fix images [15:17] or things in images [15:17] my argument is that it would be handy to have somebody who is both aware of the situation and able to fix things [15:17] to avoid stupid bugs getting in [15:17] We can still handle bug killing through normal processes [15:18] Still dependent on somebody with upload rights for anything Xubuntu-specific [15:18] skellat, usually, but as we have seen, it can be a pain in the back if we don't have people with upload rights around and we're really close to a (milestone) release [15:18] of course we don't want to have to fix things last-minute, but things happen [15:19] indeed they do [15:19] This is a cycle where we can take that gamble. 14.04 will be a different story but this round we can afford to take that gamble as the support window is only 9 months. [15:19] skellat, that sounds like a different discussion :) [15:19] anyway [15:20] if you ask me - if bluesabre is happy to do so add him - we can amend as we go [15:20] #action knome adds elfy to ~xubuntu-release, sends email about adding other members later [15:20] ACTION: knome adds elfy to ~xubuntu-release, sends email about adding other members later [15:20] first part done. [15:21] #topic New and emerging items [15:21] #subtopic Discuss about LTS/normal releases after changes to the release support length [15:21] * Do we still want to keep normal releases as stable as they are now, or should we use less manpower for that? [15:21] * Should LTS release always be the proposed release and normal releases "not encouraged"? [15:21] * Should we follow the lead of Mythbuntu and only release LTS to LTS? [15:21] so? [15:22] stability its a must [15:22] People will lose interest if we become LTS-only [15:22] GridCube, arguments? [15:22] bluesabre, ^ [15:22] i think that doing releases is good practice and motivation to squash bugs [15:23] people tend to do stuff last-minute, which would be extremely bad if we only have lts releases... [15:23] * pleia2 agrees [15:23] i've said this before, but we have to provide a desktop that massive deployers would want to have in count for work enviroments, we should be the first option there [15:23] Everyone wants the latest features, developers need a playground to add features, test, and fix bugs [15:23] so in ubuntu-land it was found that unless something specifically keeps people back (like the switch to unity ;)), most people upgrade to the next 6 month release pretty quickly, so it's not like the switch from 18 to 9 months of support actually changes all that much [15:24] lts its important, but stable releases every 6 months provide bug patches and better work [15:24] i mean better software [15:24] i agree that the normal (or "interim") releases are a good way to motivate people [15:24] calling them "interim" devalues them, no likey :) [15:24] i like the release cycle we have now [15:24] they are regular releases [15:24] okay. [15:25] i do like the current cycle as well [15:25] At this point, as long as the upgrade path is stable and consistent I am fine with releases. We have to ensure an appropriate mindset with our user base, though, that updating can in fact be good for them. When I look through AskUbuntu at Xubuntu questions it seems odd when I see questions about End Of Life versions just sitting there or people holding onto the past. [15:25] skellat: I think people who stay on old releases just don't understand how this all works (and I hope they are a minority) [15:26] we should make sure that the standard packages we provide are stable and will work well [15:26] afterall, windows xp worked for like 10 years :) why wouldn't xubuntu? [15:26] one of the things keeping some xubuntu users not up-to-date is their (sometimes justified) fear that the newer version won't run (smoothly enough) on their PC's [15:26] from update to update [15:26] i agree with pleia2 that we shouldn't devalue our releases, we should certainly encourage people to upgrade [15:26] pleia2: That WinXP view of things frightens me. We have to adequately inform and educate our user base to avoid it. [15:26] I agree that normal releases should maintain their stability, like GridCube mentioned, we have "customers" that probably depend on not having to install every 6-9 months [15:26] sounds like people are willing to put the effort to release every 6 months [15:27] let's do a simple vote. [15:27] #idea There may be a need alongside continuing releasing every six months to increase user education as to the appropriateness and value of updating & upgrading [15:27] skellat, agreed. want to work on a blog article or something? [15:28] knome: I'll take that as an action item [15:28] skellat, you should be able to draft that on xubuntu.org, and others are able to review and give feedback. when it's ready, we'll hit publish :) [15:28] thanks [15:28] #action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so [15:28] ACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so [15:28] \o/ [15:29] \o/ [15:29] #vote Keep doing regular releases every 6 months and try to keep their stability as we're doing now (+1) or something else (-1) ? [15:29] Please vote on: Keep doing regular releases every 6 months and try to keep their stability as we're doing now (+1) or something else (-1) ? [15:29] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) [15:29] +1 [15:29] +1 received from knome [15:29] +1 [15:29] +1 received from GridCube [15:29] +1 [15:29] +1 [15:29] +1 [15:29] +1 received from elfy [15:29] +1 received from bluesabre [15:29] +1 received from ochosi [15:29] +1 [15:29] +1 received from lderan [15:29] +1 [15:29] +1 received from skellat [15:30] +1 [15:30] +1 received from pleia2 [15:30] +1 [15:30] +1 received from jjfrv8 [15:30] #endvote [15:30] Voting ended on: Keep doing regular releases every 6 months and try to keep their stability as we're doing now (+1) or something else (-1) ? [15:30] Votes for:9 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 [15:30] Motion carried [15:30] next! [15:30] :) [15:30] #topic Organizing testing for Saucy [15:30] #subtopic New greeter - when is it likely to land? Do we want to do a specific call for testing it? [15:31] where its information about this new greeter? [15:31] it will be touchscreen friendly? [15:31] ochosi, bluesabre? [15:31] brb [15:31] one sec [15:32] me brb too [15:32] meh, i have a phone-call (work), that might take a bit... [15:32] #link release announcement: http://www.smdavis.us/2013/06/03/lightdm-gtk-greeter-1-6-0-released/ [15:33] (i've read that the new "variety" wallpaper changer program can be set up to update the lightdm wallpaper to match the current wallpaper of the desktop, can this option be added to the xfce menus somewhere?) [15:33] how soon do we want it? I can do a sponsored upload tonight [15:33] bluesabre: well it needs testing somehow [15:33] ppa [15:33] one sec [15:34] I can do a testcase for it pretty quicky - then it's just working out how to get it on the qa tracker [15:34] we have a daily ppa for it presently [15:34] #link https://launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/+archive/daily [15:34] I will create a stable release ppa soon [15:34] yea - I have that here [15:34] elfy, i'm able to help with that [15:34] knome: ok [15:34] also, whats with that picture on the greeter? how can xubuntu users put their pictures tehre? [15:35] ~/.face [15:35] ah [15:35] bluesabre: can that be edited on the setting menu? [15:35] I think the user manager might support setting user-image, ochosi? [15:36] knome: also need to sort out so can approve testcases for us [15:36] if not, I'll look into getting a patch in for it [15:36] elfy, i can approve. [15:37] elfy, and i can make you able to approve [15:37] that works [15:37] #action bluesabre to create lightdm-gtk-greeter stable PPA [15:37] ACTION: bluesabre to create lightdm-gtk-greeter stable PPA [15:38] are concerned people fine with this information, or do we need to discuss further [15:38] I can let slickymaster know to mark me as someone to check his testcases [15:38] knome: hang on [15:38] (we/you can always come back to that later after the meeting) [15:38] oki [15:38] #action bluesabre and ochosi to investigate setting user profile image [15:38] ACTION: bluesabre and ochosi to investigate setting user profile image [15:38] I've not actually got any answers :) [15:38] you're correct :P [15:38] do we want to test this new greeter specifically - I'd say yes [15:38] yup [15:39] should I go ahead and create an action item to get the sponsored upload started? [15:39] bluesabre and ochosi can let me know when it's going to be released - then we can set up test on qa and then I can mail the list about it [15:39] if it's distinctly different than the last greeter at least ;) [15:39] bluesabre, if you're ok with getting a sponsored upload with that, sure [15:39] elfy: yes, mail the list, I'm very lazy and won't test until there is a specific call and the instructions are very clear :) [15:39] well it was distinct enough for me to say it was broken :) [15:40] pleia2: exactly what I want to be avoiding :) [15:40] (I kid, it's less "no time" than lazy, if I can spin it up and test in less than an hour I'm much more likely to) [15:40] #action bluesabre to set up sponsored upload for lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6 [15:40] ACTION: bluesabre to set up sponsored upload for lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6 [15:40] s/less/more [15:40] bluesabre, that probably is blocked until we've got testing done though [15:40] yeah [15:40] knome: well we can get people to test from the ppa [15:40] elfy, sure :) [15:41] though they'll need greybird from git as well [15:41] ok, that leads us to... [15:41] #subtopic Is there anything anyone knows of presently that we need to plan for testing? [15:41] display-dialog? [15:41] o/ [15:41] are we going to introduce that? [15:42] depends on xfce-4.12 [15:42] ok [15:42] bluesabre, anything else from you and simon? [15:42] not presently [15:42] what about network conectivity from thunar [15:43] I think abiword 3.0 might be hitting the saucy repos soon [15:43] like for shared networks [15:43] i dont really like relaying on gigolo [15:43] bluesabre, if that happens, will you (#action) be in touch with elfy and organize testing if needed? [15:44] basically what I need is to know in advance of things we want testing so I can get everything in place before [15:44] exactly [15:44] and avoid last minute rushes for testing things [15:44] knome, display dialog or abiword? [15:44] #action elfy create greeter testcase [15:44] ACTION: elfy create greeter testcase [15:44] What I want to do, is fix and write more test cases for autopilot [15:44] +1 [15:45] I need to read up on autopilot, I've seen a lot of exchanges over it recently [15:45] rowboatnick: that's good - because that is above my head atm [15:45] bluesabre, abiword. if 4.12 lands, we will have to discuss testing generally quite a bit more anyway [15:45] elfy: if i write some, can you push them? [15:45] :D new lightdm has onscreen keyboard! [15:45] ooo [15:46] knome, I'll try to keep up to date on it [15:46] rowboatnick, if elfy can't, i can, and if i can't, i can make somebody do that [15:46] rowboatnick: once knome has made it so I can [15:46] bluesabre, ta [15:46] okay, roger [15:46] i should have a touch display soon, so will be able to help out with testing [15:46] elfy, if you seem to miss any permissions after being added to ~xubuntu-release, just ask balloons to give you more [15:46] knome: ok [15:47] rowboatnick: I'd like to know if things are being done QA wise anyway :) [15:47] that's pretty much what i'd need to do too, this way you'll just get it quicker [15:47] the last subtopic for this item [15:47] #subtopic Alpha 1 release is June 20th (one week away). Are we opting in or opting out? [15:47] knome: well noscaj had something he wanted me to look at - so I should be able to see [15:48] i would say opt-out, since we don't have xfce 4.12 around yet. [15:48] ok - I can go with that [15:48] will it be ready before 13.10? [15:48] we might want to discuss a2/a3 more thoroughly regardless of 4.12 state, but for a1... we really haven't done anything big yet [15:48] yeah, we don't have any of our new stuff in saucy yet, and people will report bugs about greybird and gtk3.8 [15:48] ...that leads us to... [15:48] knome: sounds good [15:48] #topic What is the story from upstream Xfce on 4.12's release situation? [15:48] ochosi ^ [15:49] knome: quick question [15:49] knome, last thing I saw, ochosi mailed xfce-dev about the current status [15:49] (and re: a1, we basically just need to opt-in, so if we don't do anything, we don't get a milestone release) [15:49] with no response [15:49] bluesabre, same here [15:49] elfy, sure? :) [15:49] is there a way that we can run with an image for a week ignoring alpha's and cadence week - so we can test when WE need to? [15:49] we can try to ping Nick about it [15:50] elfy, that might be possible, we probably need to be in touch with balloons/stgraber about that [15:50] ok - well I'll find out [15:51] elfy, though that would basically be really close to having a decent "release" (and just not pushing release notes) [15:51] (or announcement) [15:51] yep [15:51] I'm just trying to think ahead [15:51] can't we blame it to extra care on stability? P: [15:51] elfy, ta. #ubuntu-quality is a good place to ask that - when you do, ping me as well so i'll be able to track where we're going to [15:51] knome: ok [15:52] #idea Release team to formally opt out of Alpha 1 and request that, when ready, daily builds get halted so that we have a particular exemplar to test before Alpha 2 or Alpha 3. [15:52] GridCube, i'm not sure if i follow your question [15:52] #idea Contact Xfce upstream again to find out what is going on with 4.12 [15:52] #action elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us [15:52] ACTION: elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us [15:52] #action ochosi to poke xfce guys about 4.12 again [15:52] ACTION: ochosi to poke xfce guys about 4.12 again [15:52] its not a question, i say that if we ask for extra time we can blame that time on taking extra care on having a stable alpha [15:52] P: [15:53] skellat, re idea #1: that would basically be the same as "releasing" alpha 1 without release announcements. [15:53] skellat, which is something we can do if we want. [15:53] knome: It would be a really, really, really late Alpha 1 though [15:54] knome: Meh. Upon further reflection, if we still don't have word from upstream we should just skip Alpha 1 and let it roll away. We're still getting bugs from the dailies already as it is. [15:55] #idea Upgrade xubuntu-bugs on LP into a proper team [15:56] yeah, i'm all for skipping alpha 1. there's not really much what we want to do with the alpha testing [15:56] skellat, proper being... what? [15:57] skellat, the team is created to act as an easy way to not make -devel/-team receive all bug mail about the world [15:58] knome: Have it integrated into overarching bug-squashing so that it can also do bug management [15:58] i.e. set severity levels like WON'TFIX and reassign bugs [15:59] would require us to make the team no longer open (and someone to manage joining) [15:59] Ah [15:59] we have -devel for that pretty much :) [16:00] otherwise anyone could just join and go to town on crazy marking of our bugs ;) [16:00] I plan on looking at seeing if i can fix some bugs soon P: [16:00] +1 [16:00] pleia2: True [16:00] +100 [16:00] I'll drop that idea then [16:00] :) [16:00] not actually saying it's a bad idea, but it would need a manager [16:01] pleia2: Which would be something to table for a later meeting so that it could be more fully developed [16:01] i don't think we have enough people to form a "xubuntu bug squad" [16:01]