cubthe "link" to G+ Community Page on http://ubuntustudio.org/support/ is not actually a link.09:24
DarkErayou mean the community page?09:25
cubzequence, are you alone on updating the webpage?09:25
cubyes, directly under Social Channels in the main column09:25
DarkErayep, that one seems dead09:26
cub<a href"https://plus.google.com/communities/105814407877662644885">Google community page</a>09:26
cubmissing a =09:26
cubzequence, to follow up on your email about "Contributors needed to define our workflows", are there any earlier templates or examples to look at to start out with?11:09
smartboyhwHey DarkEra 12:57
smartboyhwDarkEra, zequence OvenWerks et al. We will start our Classroom QA sessions today at 14:00 UTC in #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat.12:57
smartboyhwWe = Ubuntu QA Team12:57
* smartboyhw will feature on 1st July.12:57
DarkErahey smartboyhw 12:59
DarkEra14:00 utc... need to convert that to my local time13:01
smartboyhwDarkEra, one hour later.13:01
DarkErathat should be now then?13:02
smartboyhwDarkEra, no.13:03
smartboyhwDarkEra, you messed up with British Summer Time.13:03
DarkEraneed to go in a few and will be back in a hour or so13:06
smartboyhwDarkEra, :)13:06
DarkEralast PUVA treatment today... Yay!13:07
smartboyhwDarkEra, :)13:10
DarkEraok, gotta go. I'll be back later again ;)13:20
OvenWerkscub: we had some very quick work flow defs, but they were:13:28
OvenWerksworkflow name, apps needed and thats about it.13:29
smartboyhwActually that's 14:30 UTC.13:30
cubOvenWerks, as for workflow Desktop then, one use case could be "I need to write a CV"?13:32
cubor "I need to set up a homepage at xyz provider"13:32
OvenWerksThat actually sounds like a good way to go. (whats a "CV"?)13:36
smartboyhwOvenWerks, ... you really don't know?13:36
smartboyhwSounds like you haven't applied for a job.13:36
OvenWerksI would not worry about it being perfect though. editing is always possible.13:37
smartboyhwCurriculum Vitae13:37
cubyeah perhaps resume is more used outside of Sweden. :D13:37
OvenWerksAh... I have at least heard of that13:37
OvenWerksI would have understood resume, yes.13:38
OvenWerksI haven't applied for a job in 27 years.13:38
cubHmm without any limitations on workflows we could end up with an infinite amount for the desktop use13:38
smartboyhwOvenWerks, :O13:38
cub-workflow + use case13:38
OvenWerksI would think that there are any number of use cases that might use the same workflow.13:39
OvenWerksSo it might be better to name the workflow and list usecases for that workflow.13:42
cubyes, but to cover everything a user might want to do..? :D13:42
OvenWerksMy sister lives in Calgary, I am just seeing some pictures of flood damage to the house I grew up in.13:43
cuboh, bad?13:44
OvenWerksMud line is about 3 feet up the outside.13:44
OvenWerksthe basment is/was full of water, but it looks like the main floor is ok.13:45
OvenWerksevac is still in effect13:45
OvenWerkscub we are not trying to cover every thing.13:46
OvenWerksOne hopes the user can take a basic workflow and adapt :)13:47
cubthat's why I asked, to know what we aim for to begin with..and then develop from there.13:47
OvenWerksI'm not very good at figuring these things out. (I make a bad teacher) I tend to over simplify.13:48
OvenWerksBest to start with whatever is on your mind and go from there. If it is something you have used personally, that would be good I think.13:50
zequencecub: no blueprints really. I think what you want is probably start by making a list of all applications for a workflow (generating it may be done using some apt magic), and then start investigating what we have, what we should have, and what we might not need, etc13:50
smartboyhwcub, we have too many blueprints (the blueprint dependency graph faints me)13:50
* OvenWerks has to go.13:50
zequencecub: also, we need to do testing on the applications we include, to make sure they have all promised features (sometimes debian imports have bugs)13:50
cubI can hardly read the blueprints13:50
cubbecause they autosizes13:51
OvenWerkshover your mouse over anything13:51
cubyes but when looking at an overview it's just tiny spheres and the hover doesn't do much. Or it's something strange in my chromium/chrome browsers13:52
zequencecub: Yeah, or use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PermanentBlueprintOverview13:52
zequencemight be incomplete at the moment though (i made that only because of the problems with overviewing at LP)13:53
zequenceOvenWerks: may I suggest to name your installer "ubuntustudio-installer", and give it a desktop file. If enabling a command line version, just let the gui version be started with an argument like how winetrics: ubuntustudio --gui, which could be the start command on the desktop file13:54
zequence..like how the gui version of winetricks is started, was what I meant to say13:55
zequencewhich is: winetricks --gui13:55
zequencealso using zenity13:55
zequencecub: I suggested to reorganize the blueprints completely, which I'd like to do once I have some time over13:56
zequencewe dont' really need a lot of Ubuntu project blueprints, and removing those would reduce the amount13:57
cubthere's that word again "time" :P13:57
zequenceand not everything needs to depend on each other13:57
zequenceright now I need to get linux-lowlatency built, which wasn't happening before13:57
zequenceand then prepare tomorrows linux class13:57
cubhow do you keep track of everything that needs to be done?13:58
cubis it through the blueprints, or some massive offline project management sheet?13:59
smartboyhwcub, blueprints.13:59
cubmust be hard to keep track though, that not something falls in between somewhere and is forgotten14:00
smartboyhwzequence, cub, I like trello boards actually:P14:00
cubI don't like trello much, but I use them as well. :D14:00
cubKanbanize and Kanbanery too14:01
cubI'm mostly curious since being new here I find it quite hard to get a grip on the different processes14:03
cuband I work a lot recently to implement Lean thinking at my job so it's a lot of processes and kanban boards around14:03
cuband I'm also a Service Manager and Project Manager so I run multiple projects for customer 14:03
cubit's so easy to miss out on some small detail that suddenly breaks everything. :P Like "Oh did someone open port 80 to the web fronts?"14:04
zequencecub: there's no need for central planning in most cases14:05
zequencebut, a project lead usually finds himself informed about everything14:05
zequenceit's actually much better I think, if people can focus on less14:06
zequenceit's really just about finding something interesting, and starting to work on that14:06
zequencewhat developers should keep track of is changes in sources, which are posted by email if something was changed14:07
zequencefor sources that they would be concerned about14:08
zequencethere isn't yet established procedures for everything, and thus, not docs for it14:09
zequencethe idea is that we use the wiki for documenting stuff like that14:09
zequencebut, at the same time, it's fairly simple right now14:10
zequencethe more people we have working, the more gets done14:10
zequencethe blueprints are not only a way to document what should be done, but also a memory for what could/should be done, if someone's interested in investigating14:11
cubI see14:12
smartboyhwzequence, question: Do you still have the presentation slide that you used during UDS-R in Oakland for Ubuntu Studio's presentation?14:33
zequencesmartboyhw: I suspect not :)14:41
smartboyhwzequence, damnit...... :P14:41
smartboyhwzequence, you need to join in the #ubuntu-classroom chan also.14:47
zequencesmartboyhw: you booked a class room session, or?14:48
smartboyhwzequence, 1st July. ISO testing.14:48
smartboyhw13:00 - 15:00 UTC.14:48
holsteini like messages like "hey, i noticed the download links are incorrect.. can i help with that in any way?"15:30
holsteinbut, reporting is helpful15:31
holstein11:53 < Paladine> am trying to get a bunch of Linux build to switch their default search engine in their browser to a more  privacy focused solution other than Google15:59
holsteinthis was implied as a reponse to PRISM16:00
holsteinpersonally, as i usually say, im with you guys as far as what defaults you ant to go with16:00
holsteini dont think switching from google has anything to do with addressing the "PRISM" concern.. since *all* traffic goes through PRISM16:00
Paladinewell I am the privacy spokesperson for Ixquick and Startpage (same company)16:00
Paladinewho are based in the Netherlands16:01
holsteinbut, i dont mind having that (responsible) conversation16:01
Paladineand are not subject to US law16:01
Paladineall traffic doesn't go through PRISM16:01
PaladineI am not sure where you got that information16:01
PaladinePRISM is the programme the NSA use under FISAAA to gain access to the content of various services16:02
Paladineall of those services are based in the US and subject to FISC orders16:02
PaladineTempora in the UK is more serious, they fibre tap over 200 data cables originating and terminating int he UK16:03
holsteinits splits the optical data connection and collects *all* traffic16:03
holsteinlike a prism16:03
Paladineyou are incorrect16:03
holsteinim not the only one then16:03
PaladinePRISM is not a physical interception16:03
PaladinePRISM is just the name of the program16:03
holsteinplus, its not google data that is in question. its *all* data16:03
Paladineno it is the data of major US service providers16:04
holsteinanyways.. im not here to debate things i dont know about16:04
Paladineand they gain access via FISC orders16:04
holsteinwhat i will debate is.. changing from google will do nothing to actually address anything16:04
Paladinewell actually it will16:04
holsteinand thats what im disagreeing with16:04
Paladinesince Ixquick and Startpage are not in the US they are not subject to US law and therefore completely immune to PRISM16:04
holsteinyou are not immune to data recording16:05
holsteinno one would be16:05
Paladinethey are alsoimmune to Tempora since all their incoming connections are encrypted16:05
holsteinbut, again.. im not going to debate that16:05
PaladineI don't want to have a fight but as a globally respect expert on these issues, I have to disagree with you16:05
Paladineyou misunderstand completely what PRISM is16:05
holsteinif you want to make a suggestion about switching from google, i'll hear that.. and the team will welcome the suggestion16:05
holsteinPaladine: i dont need to "understand" to say.. switching from google will do nothing to address the issue16:06
holsteinthe traffic still comes and goes where it is, as of now16:06
holsteinbut, again, you can make the suggestion, and are welcome to do so.. and encouraged16:06
Paladineswitching from Google to a searchengine in the EU which falls under EU law and is explicitly NOT vulnerable to PRISM or any other programme under US law16:06
holsteinbut, you wont sell me on it being a "fix" for privacy16:06
Paladineis a significant improvement for your users' privacy16:06
holsteineither its "safe" or its not16:07
Paladineit is safe16:07
Paladinewhy are you being so aggressive?16:07
holsteinim not16:07
holsteinim being realistic.. and trying my best to keep my opinion from the facts16:07
Paladinefirst let me explain again what PRISM is (it is clearly not what you think)16:07
holsteinPaladine: i dont think its what you think16:07
holsteindata is collected..16:08
holsteinand, its not a debate that we need to hae16:08
PaladinePRISM is the NSA programme which through Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and PATRIOT provisions for Business Records under order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court gains access to the systems of some of the worlds largest US based service providerrs16:08
Paladinewill you please listen?16:08
holsteinyou are offering a privacy solution.. and im questioning it16:08
holsteinPaladine: im listeing, but its not for me16:08
holsteinPaladine: i dont make the decisions16:09
holsteinim only stating that i dont think its a solution to the issue16:09
Paladineyou are not giving me the chance to explain you keep interrupting with your misinterpretation of what PRISM is16:09
holsteinPaladine: you make the case to zequence, and the team decides.. and i stand behind the decision of the team16:09
Paladineas I said, your understanding of what PRISM is is completely erroneous16:10
holsteinPaladine: but, i will say.. i need to see some facts that state you are getting around this data collection before i "trust" it16:10
Paladineyou seem to think it is some sort of physical interception programme, it is not16:10
holsteinPaladine: as i said, my understanding of it is irrelevant16:10
PaladinePRISM only imapcts US companies because they are subject to the jurisdiction of FISC - non US companies are NOT subject to FISC orders16:10
Paladinethe problem is most of the worlds giant tech companies are US companies16:11
holsteinPaladine: just state the case here, and in the dev mailing list.. its not my decision16:11
Paladinewhich is why PRISM is such an effective intelligence programme16:11
Paladinebut companies outside the US are immune to PRISM16:11
PaladineIxquick and Startpage are based in the Netherlands, they are certified by Europrise (who in turn are funded by the European Commission)16:12
holsteinPaladine: and im saying, your data is still being intercepted, though you may be "immune" to US16:12
Paladinethey were the first company ever to be awarded the Europrise certification16:12
Paladineagain you are incorrect, PRISM is NOT an intercept programme16:12
holsteini never stated it was a program at all16:12
holsteinbut, again.. its not up to me16:12
PaladinePRISM is a "Business Records" provision (PATRIOT) access programme16:13
holsteinstate the case, and include the information.. i would start with zequence 16:13
holsteinhe is the team lead.. and as i said.. i stand behind the team's decisions 16:13
Paladinewell if you would stop interrupting me, maybe I could16:13
holstein!volunteers | Paladine 16:13
ubottuPaladine: The people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not always available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines16:13
holsteinPaladine: try the mailing list16:13
Paladinebut you know what, I don't think I will bother, I will just talk to Mark Shuttleworth instead16:13
holsteinPaladine: sure.. you are welcome, and encouraged to speak to anyone you like16:14
Paladineit is bad enough when the government lie to people, it is equally frustrating when members of the public try to tell people know what something does that they are wrong, even when those people are experts in their field16:14
Paladineyour understanding of PRISM is completely wrong, I urge you to go and actually do the research on what it does, before you start to condemn all solutions on a completely erroneous pretence16:15
holsteinPaladine: i assure you im not lying.. or saying you are wrong16:15
PaladineI never accused you of lying, I said your understanding is false16:15
holsteinim saying, i dont trust your alternative (personally) to address the issue you are stating that it can16:15
holsteinPaladine: i understand you are not bound by us law.. but, im saying, you can not guarantee me my traffic to your servers is not being intercepted16:16
Paladinethey are not my servers16:16
PaladineI am a privacy advocate16:16
holsteinswitching to your search provider may not be the answer to the question16:16
PaladineI don't work for anyone16:16
Paladineall the traffic to their servers is encrypted by default16:17
holsteinPaladine: the company you are mentioning. that i thought you implied you were representing.. maybe i mis understood16:17
Paladineso even if it is intercepted it is useless16:17
holsteinPaladine: sounds good.. you can include that in the email.. or messages to zequence and/or Mark Shuttleworth16:18
PaladineGoogle use HTTPS too but they can be compelled to hand over the keys or provide access to the data once it is decrypted at their end under FISA16:18
holsteinand, what would compell the company you mention to hand over the data? and who would they be compelled to hand it over to?16:18
Paladinethere is no equivelant law to compel them16:19
holsteinPaladine: i never said "law"16:19
holsteinanyways.. these are realistic questions/concerns that i think you should expect to hear16:19
Paladinenothing would compel them, they entire purpose is to provide private searches, they have invested considerable money to do just that16:19
holsteinso, money would be compelling?16:20
Paladineread what I said16:20
holsteinPaladine: all im saying is.. i dont trust google already.. i dont know you, and i dont trust the company i just heard of either.. that you mentioned16:21
Paladinethey don't log anything, they provide proxied results, they provide cookieless settings, they are externally audited by the most respected privacy certification org in europe16:21
holsteinthat is all.. its not a big deal.. and im not the person who decides.. its a community16:21
holsteinPaladine: this is the devel mailing list i was referring to https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-Studio-devel16:27
holsteinits actually quite active.. though zequence will be in here at some point16:27
holsteinsome folks dont do IRC, which can make it a bit challenging to meet with the entire team in realtime16:27
PaladineI presume you take your browser defaults from upstream?16:28
holsteinPaladine: right now, xubuntu is mostly our "upstream".. though, we can customize16:29
Paladinewhat is the estimated userbase of US nowadays?16:30
holsteini know i use is16:30
PaladineI haven't used it since about 2008 or something16:30
holsteini assume the other dev's do.. so at least 6 of us16:30
zequenceI'm certainly open to the idea of providing another default search than google17:11
zequencePaladine: ^17:12
zequenceWe don't have any specific settings for any of the applications we have preinstalled17:12
zequencethe settings come with the package itself17:12
Paladinecan I discuss this in PM?17:12
zequencerather not :)17:12
zequenceI don't see it being a private issue anyway17:13
Paladinejust quieter :)17:13
Paladinedid you read the info I posted before?17:13
PaladineI will summarise17:14
Paladinebasically the default search in Firefox is Google (for most people)17:14
PaladineGoogle are known to be subject to FISAAA/FISC orders17:15
Paladineand PRISM17:15
Paladineas are all US based corporations17:15
Paladineor any non US based corporation with servers in the US17:15
Paladineas a privacy advocate I would like to see more open source solutions providing access to services which are not subject to those laws17:16
zequenceI actually think this is something that should be discussed more centrally withing Ubuntu and also Debian 17:16
PaladineI am currently working with Ixquick/Startpage to try and increase awareness of privacy enhancing technologies17:16
zequenceThe set of search engines can be changed for the firefox package17:17
Paladinewell I have contacted canonical but it is far more difficult to discuss these things with them than smaller derivatives17:17
Paladinegiven the financial link between mozilla and google17:17
zequenceas for other browser, not sure how that works. I know "web" defaults to google, while chromium doesn't have all that many options17:17
zequencehow did you contact canonical?17:18
zequenceIt might be best to discuss on a devel related mail list17:18
PaladineI emailed them, actually Mark directly17:18
zequencelike, ubuntu-devel-discuss17:18
PaladineI have spoken to Mark about privacy stuff before so he knows me17:18
Paladinebut I wouldn't be surprised if there is an agreement in place with Google already17:18
PaladineI don't know if there is but I would be surprised if there isnt17:19
zequenceI think it's more about packaging, and community voice actually17:19
zequencein which case, I'd recommend to begin a discussion on ubuntu-devel-discuss17:19
zequencethis here https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss17:20
zequencethe discussion would also reveal what other problems there may be to consider17:21
Paladineand if Canonical decided not to, would you guys still be open to discussion at the US level?17:22
Paladine(Ubuntu Studio = US)17:22
zequenceSure, but this is something that is best suited to discuss as far "upstream" as possible, really17:23
Paladineyeah I am posting to the list now17:24
zequenceMeaning, first starting with the application developers, than with the packagers17:24
zequenceAt least, i think it would make sense to include a privacy respecting search engine for web browser17:25
zequenceweb browsers*17:25
zequenceit's still up to the user what to choose17:25
Paladinewell from my perspective I would prefer to have this implemented as far upstream as possible for obvious reasons, I am just not so confident it will happen - no offense to the FOSS community but in my experience it is somewhat full of Google fanboys17:25
PaladineI am in th eprocess of discussing the issue with Alex Fowler at Mozilla too, but they have an existing relationship with Google which is the source of most of their revenues so it is much more difficult to gain any traction at that level17:26
Paladineok posted to the list, you should be able to see it now17:59
zequencePaladine: Looks very well written :). Let's hope many people read it and turn it into an interesting discussion18:02
PaladineI hope so too18:03
DarkEraolah zequence 18:05
Paladinedinner back shortly18:42
cubGetting back to my inquires earlier about checking use cases against the workflows, should the aim to be to test with Saucy? Or is the interest in testing for the released versions as well?19:06
zequencecub: saucy is prio. Any bugs should be reported, so we have a chance to fix them before release19:16
cubdownloading now19:16
cubI haven't been involved with development releases before, but if I download the latest iso today and run in virtualbox, it will be able to keep updtated through apt-get still? Or do I need to download new iso-build every time?19:17
zequencecub: updates are enough19:18
zequencecub: but, sometimes, especially if an applications is updated to a newer version, like say, XFCE, user settings may not work as intended19:19
zequencethe app is updated, but not necessarily the user settings19:20
DarkErazequence, you have the link to saucy's mini.iso's by chance?  seems i lost the last one. Had enough of VB because it just doesn't seem to work on my end so i need to install it on bare metal19:26
zequenceDarkEra: I usually use this page to get the links https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD19:30
zequencejust replace a release name with "saucy"19:30
DarkErathanks buddy19:30
DarkEralooks like it's a total no go. Did a CLI install on the netbook of 13.10, added the ppa and want to install the gnome meta package of Ubuntu Studio. It complains about broken packages22:55
DarkErai'm about to drop it22:55

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