[09:24] <cub> the "link" to G+ Community Page on http://ubuntustudio.org/support/ is not actually a link.
[09:25] <DarkEra> you mean the community page?
[09:25] <cub> zequence, are you alone on updating the webpage?
[09:25] <cub> yes, directly under Social Channels in the main column
[09:26] <DarkEra> yep, that one seems dead
[09:26] <cub> <a href"https://plus.google.com/communities/105814407877662644885">Google community page</a>
[09:26] <cub> missing a =
[11:09] <cub> zequence, to follow up on your email about "Contributors needed to define our workflows", are there any earlier templates or examples to look at to start out with?
[12:57] <smartboyhw> Hey DarkEra 
[12:57] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, zequence OvenWerks et al. We will start our Classroom QA sessions today at 14:00 UTC in #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
[12:57] <smartboyhw> We = Ubuntu QA Team
[12:57]  * smartboyhw will feature on 1st July.
[12:59] <DarkEra> hey smartboyhw 
[13:01] <DarkEra> 14:00 utc... need to convert that to my local time
[13:01] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, one hour later.
[13:01] <smartboyhw> Exactly.
[13:02] <DarkEra> that should be now then?
[13:03] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, no.
[13:03] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, you messed up with British Summer Time.
[13:04] <DarkEra> doh...
[13:06] <DarkEra> need to go in a few and will be back in a hour or so
[13:06] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, :)
[13:07] <DarkEra> last PUVA treatment today... Yay!
[13:10] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, :)
[13:20] <DarkEra> ok, gotta go. I'll be back later again ;)
[13:28] <OvenWerks> cub: we had some very quick work flow defs, but they were:
[13:29] <OvenWerks> workflow name, apps needed and thats about it.
[13:30] <smartboyhw> Actually that's 14:30 UTC.
[13:32] <cub> OvenWerks, as for workflow Desktop then, one use case could be "I need to write a CV"?
[13:32] <cub> or "I need to set up a homepage at xyz provider"
[13:36] <OvenWerks> That actually sounds like a good way to go. (whats a "CV"?)
[13:36] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, ... you really don't know?
[13:36] <smartboyhw> Sounds like you haven't applied for a job.
[13:36] <smartboyhw> before:P
[13:37] <OvenWerks> I would not worry about it being perfect though. editing is always possible.
[13:37] <smartboyhw> Curriculum Vitae
[13:37] <cub> yeah perhaps resume is more used outside of Sweden. :D
[13:37] <OvenWerks> Ah... I have at least heard of that
[13:38] <OvenWerks> I would have understood resume, yes.
[13:38] <OvenWerks> I haven't applied for a job in 27 years.
[13:38] <cub> Hmm without any limitations on workflows we could end up with an infinite amount for the desktop use
[13:38] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, :O
[13:38] <smartboyhw> ...
[13:38] <cub> -workflow + use case
[13:39] <OvenWerks> I would think that there are any number of use cases that might use the same workflow.
[13:42] <OvenWerks> So it might be better to name the workflow and list usecases for that workflow.
[13:42] <cub> yes, but to cover everything a user might want to do..? :D
[13:43] <OvenWerks> My sister lives in Calgary, I am just seeing some pictures of flood damage to the house I grew up in.
[13:44] <cub> oh, bad?
[13:44] <OvenWerks> Mud line is about 3 feet up the outside.
[13:45] <OvenWerks> the basment is/was full of water, but it looks like the main floor is ok.
[13:45] <OvenWerks> evac is still in effect
[13:46] <OvenWerks> cub we are not trying to cover every thing.
[13:47] <OvenWerks> One hopes the user can take a basic workflow and adapt :)
[13:47] <cub> that's why I asked, to know what we aim for to begin with..and then develop from there.
[13:48] <OvenWerks> I'm not very good at figuring these things out. (I make a bad teacher) I tend to over simplify.
[13:50] <OvenWerks> Best to start with whatever is on your mind and go from there. If it is something you have used personally, that would be good I think.
[13:50] <zequence> cub: no blueprints really. I think what you want is probably start by making a list of all applications for a workflow (generating it may be done using some apt magic), and then start investigating what we have, what we should have, and what we might not need, etc
[13:50] <smartboyhw> cub, we have too many blueprints (the blueprint dependency graph faints me)
[13:50]  * OvenWerks has to go.
[13:50] <zequence> cub: also, we need to do testing on the applications we include, to make sure they have all promised features (sometimes debian imports have bugs)
[13:50] <cub> I can hardly read the blueprints
[13:51] <cub> because they autosizes
[13:51] <OvenWerks> hover your mouse over anything
[13:52] <cub> yes but when looking at an overview it's just tiny spheres and the hover doesn't do much. Or it's something strange in my chromium/chrome browsers
[13:52] <zequence> cub: Yeah, or use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PermanentBlueprintOverview
[13:53] <zequence> might be incomplete at the moment though (i made that only because of the problems with overviewing at LP)
[13:54] <zequence> OvenWerks: may I suggest to name your installer "ubuntustudio-installer", and give it a desktop file. If enabling a command line version, just let the gui version be started with an argument like how winetrics: ubuntustudio --gui, which could be the start command on the desktop file
[13:55] <zequence> ..like how the gui version of winetricks is started, was what I meant to say
[13:55] <zequence> which is: winetricks --gui
[13:55] <zequence> also using zenity
[13:56] <zequence> cub: I suggested to reorganize the blueprints completely, which I'd like to do once I have some time over
[13:57] <zequence> we dont' really need a lot of Ubuntu project blueprints, and removing those would reduce the amount
[13:57] <cub> there's that word again "time" :P
[13:57] <zequence> and not everything needs to depend on each other
[13:57] <zequence> right now I need to get linux-lowlatency built, which wasn't happening before
[13:57] <zequence> and then prepare tomorrows linux class
[13:58] <cub> how do you keep track of everything that needs to be done?
[13:59] <cub> is it through the blueprints, or some massive offline project management sheet?
[13:59] <smartboyhw> cub, blueprints.
[14:00] <cub> must be hard to keep track though, that not something falls in between somewhere and is forgotten
[14:00] <smartboyhw> zequence, cub, I like trello boards actually:P
[14:00] <cub> I don't like trello much, but I use them as well. :D
[14:01] <cub> Kanbanize and Kanbanery too
[14:03] <cub> I'm mostly curious since being new here I find it quite hard to get a grip on the different processes
[14:03] <cub> and I work a lot recently to implement Lean thinking at my job so it's a lot of processes and kanban boards around
[14:03] <cub> and I'm also a Service Manager and Project Manager so I run multiple projects for customer 
[14:04] <cub> it's so easy to miss out on some small detail that suddenly breaks everything. :P Like "Oh did someone open port 80 to the web fronts?"
[14:05] <zequence> cub: there's no need for central planning in most cases
[14:05] <zequence> but, a project lead usually finds himself informed about everything
[14:06] <zequence> it's actually much better I think, if people can focus on less
[14:06] <zequence> it's really just about finding something interesting, and starting to work on that
[14:07] <zequence> what developers should keep track of is changes in sources, which are posted by email if something was changed
[14:08] <zequence> for sources that they would be concerned about
[14:09] <zequence> there isn't yet established procedures for everything, and thus, not docs for it
[14:09] <zequence> the idea is that we use the wiki for documenting stuff like that
[14:10] <zequence> but, at the same time, it's fairly simple right now
[14:10] <zequence> the more people we have working, the more gets done
[14:11] <zequence> the blueprints are not only a way to document what should be done, but also a memory for what could/should be done, if someone's interested in investigating
[14:12] <cub> I see
[14:33] <smartboyhw> zequence, question: Do you still have the presentation slide that you used during UDS-R in Oakland for Ubuntu Studio's presentation?
[14:41] <zequence> smartboyhw: I suspect not :)
[14:41] <smartboyhw> zequence, damnit...... :P
[14:47] <smartboyhw> zequence, you need to join in the #ubuntu-classroom chan also.
[14:48] <zequence> smartboyhw: you booked a class room session, or?
[14:48] <smartboyhw> zequence, 1st July. ISO testing.
[14:48] <zequence> ok
[14:48] <smartboyhw> 13:00 - 15:00 UTC.
[15:30] <holstein> i like messages like "hey, i noticed the download links are incorrect.. can i help with that in any way?"
[15:31] <holstein> but, reporting is helpful
[15:59] <holstein> 11:53 < Paladine> am trying to get a bunch of Linux build to switch their default search engine in their browser to a more  privacy focused solution other than Google
[16:00] <holstein> this was implied as a reponse to PRISM
[16:00] <holstein> personally, as i usually say, im with you guys as far as what defaults you ant to go with
[16:00] <holstein> i dont think switching from google has anything to do with addressing the "PRISM" concern.. since *all* traffic goes through PRISM
[16:00] <Paladine> well I am the privacy spokesperson for Ixquick and Startpage (same company)
[16:01] <Paladine> who are based in the Netherlands
[16:01] <holstein> but, i dont mind having that (responsible) conversation
[16:01] <Paladine> and are not subject to US law
[16:01] <Paladine> all traffic doesn't go through PRISM
[16:01] <Paladine> I am not sure where you got that information
[16:02] <Paladine> PRISM is the programme the NSA use under FISAAA to gain access to the content of various services
[16:02] <Paladine> all of those services are based in the US and subject to FISC orders
[16:03] <Paladine> Tempora in the UK is more serious, they fibre tap over 200 data cables originating and terminating int he UK
[16:03] <holstein> its splits the optical data connection and collects *all* traffic
[16:03] <holstein> like a prism
[16:03] <Paladine> you are incorrect
[16:03] <holstein> im not the only one then
[16:03] <Paladine> PRISM is not a physical interception
[16:03] <Paladine> PRISM is just the name of the program
[16:03] <holstein> plus, its not google data that is in question. its *all* data
[16:04] <Paladine> no it is the data of major US service providers
[16:04] <holstein> anyways.. im not here to debate things i dont know about
[16:04] <Paladine> and they gain access via FISC orders
[16:04] <holstein> what i will debate is.. changing from google will do nothing to actually address anything
[16:04] <Paladine> well actually it will
[16:04] <holstein> sure
[16:04] <holstein> and thats what im disagreeing with
[16:04] <Paladine> since Ixquick and Startpage are not in the US they are not subject to US law and therefore completely immune to PRISM
[16:05] <holstein> you are not immune to data recording
[16:05] <holstein> no one would be
[16:05] <Paladine> they are alsoimmune to Tempora since all their incoming connections are encrypted
[16:05] <holstein> but, again.. im not going to debate that
[16:05] <Paladine> I don't want to have a fight but as a globally respect expert on these issues, I have to disagree with you
[16:05] <Paladine> you misunderstand completely what PRISM is
[16:05] <holstein> if you want to make a suggestion about switching from google, i'll hear that.. and the team will welcome the suggestion
[16:06] <holstein> Paladine: i dont need to "understand" to say.. switching from google will do nothing to address the issue
[16:06] <holstein> the traffic still comes and goes where it is, as of now
[16:06] <holstein> but, again, you can make the suggestion, and are welcome to do so.. and encouraged
[16:06] <Paladine> switching from Google to a searchengine in the EU which falls under EU law and is explicitly NOT vulnerable to PRISM or any other programme under US law
[16:06] <holstein> but, you wont sell me on it being a "fix" for privacy
[16:06] <Paladine> is a significant improvement for your users' privacy
[16:07] <holstein> improvment?
[16:07] <holstein> either its "safe" or its not
[16:07] <Paladine> it is safe
[16:07] <Paladine> why are you being so aggressive?
[16:07] <holstein> im not
[16:07] <holstein> im being realistic.. and trying my best to keep my opinion from the facts
[16:07] <Paladine> first let me explain again what PRISM is (it is clearly not what you think)
[16:07] <holstein> Paladine: i dont think its what you think
[16:08] <holstein> data is collected..
[16:08] <holstein> and, its not a debate that we need to hae
[16:08] <Paladine> PRISM is the NSA programme which through Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and PATRIOT provisions for Business Records under order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court gains access to the systems of some of the worlds largest US based service providerrs
[16:08] <holstein> have*
[16:08] <Paladine> will you please listen?
[16:08] <holstein> you are offering a privacy solution.. and im questioning it
[16:08] <holstein> Paladine: im listeing, but its not for me
[16:09] <holstein> Paladine: i dont make the decisions
[16:09] <holstein> im only stating that i dont think its a solution to the issue
[16:09] <Paladine> you are not giving me the chance to explain you keep interrupting with your misinterpretation of what PRISM is
[16:09] <holstein> Paladine: you make the case to zequence, and the team decides.. and i stand behind the decision of the team
[16:10] <Paladine> as I said, your understanding of what PRISM is is completely erroneous
[16:10] <holstein> Paladine: but, i will say.. i need to see some facts that state you are getting around this data collection before i "trust" it
[16:10] <Paladine> you seem to think it is some sort of physical interception programme, it is not
[16:10] <holstein> Paladine: as i said, my understanding of it is irrelevant
[16:10] <Paladine> PRISM only imapcts US companies because they are subject to the jurisdiction of FISC - non US companies are NOT subject to FISC orders
[16:11] <Paladine> the problem is most of the worlds giant tech companies are US companies
[16:11] <holstein> Paladine: just state the case here, and in the dev mailing list.. its not my decision
[16:11] <Paladine> which is why PRISM is such an effective intelligence programme
[16:11] <Paladine> but companies outside the US are immune to PRISM
[16:12] <Paladine> Ixquick and Startpage are based in the Netherlands, they are certified by Europrise (who in turn are funded by the European Commission)
[16:12] <holstein> Paladine: and im saying, your data is still being intercepted, though you may be "immune" to US
[16:12] <Paladine> they were the first company ever to be awarded the Europrise certification
[16:12] <Paladine> again you are incorrect, PRISM is NOT an intercept programme
[16:12] <holstein> i never stated it was a program at all
[16:12] <holstein> but, again.. its not up to me
[16:13] <Paladine> PRISM is a "Business Records" provision (PATRIOT) access programme
[16:13] <holstein> state the case, and include the information.. i would start with zequence 
[16:13] <holstein> he is the team lead.. and as i said.. i stand behind the team's decisions 
[16:13] <Paladine> well if you would stop interrupting me, maybe I could
[16:13] <holstein> !volunteers | Paladine 
[16:13] <holstein> Paladine: try the mailing list
[16:13] <Paladine> but you know what, I don't think I will bother, I will just talk to Mark Shuttleworth instead
[16:14] <holstein> Paladine: sure.. you are welcome, and encouraged to speak to anyone you like
[16:14] <Paladine> it is bad enough when the government lie to people, it is equally frustrating when members of the public try to tell people know what something does that they are wrong, even when those people are experts in their field
[16:15] <Paladine> your understanding of PRISM is completely wrong, I urge you to go and actually do the research on what it does, before you start to condemn all solutions on a completely erroneous pretence
[16:15] <holstein> Paladine: i assure you im not lying.. or saying you are wrong
[16:15] <Paladine> I never accused you of lying, I said your understanding is false
[16:15] <holstein> im saying, i dont trust your alternative (personally) to address the issue you are stating that it can
[16:16] <holstein> Paladine: i understand you are not bound by us law.. but, im saying, you can not guarantee me my traffic to your servers is not being intercepted
[16:16] <Paladine> they are not my servers
[16:16] <Paladine> I am a privacy advocate
[16:16] <holstein> switching to your search provider may not be the answer to the question
[16:16] <Paladine> I don't work for anyone
[16:17] <Paladine> all the traffic to their servers is encrypted by default
[16:17] <holstein> Paladine: the company you are mentioning. that i thought you implied you were representing.. maybe i mis understood
[16:17] <Paladine> so even if it is intercepted it is useless
[16:18] <holstein> Paladine: sounds good.. you can include that in the email.. or messages to zequence and/or Mark Shuttleworth
[16:18] <Paladine> Google use HTTPS too but they can be compelled to hand over the keys or provide access to the data once it is decrypted at their end under FISA
[16:18] <holstein> and, what would compell the company you mention to hand over the data? and who would they be compelled to hand it over to?
[16:19] <Paladine> there is no equivelant law to compel them
[16:19] <holstein> Paladine: i never said "law"
[16:19] <holstein> anyways.. these are realistic questions/concerns that i think you should expect to hear
[16:19] <Paladine> nothing would compel them, they entire purpose is to provide private searches, they have invested considerable money to do just that
[16:20] <holstein> so, money would be compelling?
[16:20] <Paladine> no
[16:20] <Paladine> read what I said
[16:21] <holstein> Paladine: all im saying is.. i dont trust google already.. i dont know you, and i dont trust the company i just heard of either.. that you mentioned
[16:21] <Paladine> they don't log anything, they provide proxied results, they provide cookieless settings, they are externally audited by the most respected privacy certification org in europe
[16:21] <holstein> that is all.. its not a big deal.. and im not the person who decides.. its a community
[16:27] <holstein> Paladine: this is the devel mailing list i was referring to https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-Studio-devel
[16:27] <holstein> its actually quite active.. though zequence will be in here at some point
[16:27] <holstein> some folks dont do IRC, which can make it a bit challenging to meet with the entire team in realtime
[16:28] <Paladine> I presume you take your browser defaults from upstream?
[16:29] <holstein> Paladine: right now, xubuntu is mostly our "upstream".. though, we can customize
[16:30] <Paladine> what is the estimated userbase of US nowadays?
[16:30] <holstein> i know i use is
[16:30] <Paladine> I haven't used it since about 2008 or something
[16:30] <holstein> it*
[16:30] <holstein> i assume the other dev's do.. so at least 6 of us
[17:11] <zequence> I'm certainly open to the idea of providing another default search than google
[17:12] <zequence> Paladine: ^
[17:12] <Paladine> hey
[17:12] <zequence> We don't have any specific settings for any of the applications we have preinstalled
[17:12] <zequence> the settings come with the package itself
[17:12] <Paladine> can I discuss this in PM?
[17:12] <zequence> rather not :)
[17:13] <zequence> I don't see it being a private issue anyway
[17:13] <Paladine> just quieter :)
[17:13] <Paladine> did you read the info I posted before?
[17:14] <Paladine> I will summarise
[17:14] <Paladine> basically the default search in Firefox is Google (for most people)
[17:15] <Paladine> Google are known to be subject to FISAAA/FISC orders
[17:15] <Paladine> and PRISM
[17:15] <Paladine> as are all US based corporations
[17:15] <Paladine> or any non US based corporation with servers in the US
[17:16] <Paladine> as a privacy advocate I would like to see more open source solutions providing access to services which are not subject to those laws
[17:16] <zequence> I actually think this is something that should be discussed more centrally withing Ubuntu and also Debian 
[17:16] <Paladine> I am currently working with Ixquick/Startpage to try and increase awareness of privacy enhancing technologies
[17:17] <zequence> The set of search engines can be changed for the firefox package
[17:17] <Paladine> well I have contacted canonical but it is far more difficult to discuss these things with them than smaller derivatives
[17:17] <Paladine> given the financial link between mozilla and google
[17:17] <zequence> as for other browser, not sure how that works. I know "web" defaults to google, while chromium doesn't have all that many options
[17:18] <zequence> how did you contact canonical?
[17:18] <zequence> It might be best to discuss on a devel related mail list
[17:18] <Paladine> I emailed them, actually Mark directly
[17:18] <zequence> like, ubuntu-devel-discuss
[17:18] <Paladine> I have spoken to Mark about privacy stuff before so he knows me
[17:18] <Paladine> but I wouldn't be surprised if there is an agreement in place with Google already
[17:19] <Paladine> I don't know if there is but I would be surprised if there isnt
[17:19] <zequence> I think it's more about packaging, and community voice actually
[17:19] <zequence> in which case, I'd recommend to begin a discussion on ubuntu-devel-discuss
[17:20] <zequence> this here https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
[17:21] <zequence> the discussion would also reveal what other problems there may be to consider
[17:22] <Paladine> and if Canonical decided not to, would you guys still be open to discussion at the US level?
[17:22] <Paladine> (Ubuntu Studio = US)
[17:23] <zequence> Sure, but this is something that is best suited to discuss as far "upstream" as possible, really
[17:24] <Paladine> yeah I am posting to the list now
[17:24] <zequence> Meaning, first starting with the application developers, than with the packagers
[17:25] <zequence> At least, i think it would make sense to include a privacy respecting search engine for web browser
[17:25] <zequence> web browsers*
[17:25] <zequence> it's still up to the user what to choose
[17:25] <Paladine> well from my perspective I would prefer to have this implemented as far upstream as possible for obvious reasons, I am just not so confident it will happen - no offense to the FOSS community but in my experience it is somewhat full of Google fanboys
[17:26] <Paladine> I am in th eprocess of discussing the issue with Alex Fowler at Mozilla too, but they have an existing relationship with Google which is the source of most of their revenues so it is much more difficult to gain any traction at that level
[17:59] <Paladine> ok posted to the list, you should be able to see it now
[18:02] <zequence> Paladine: Looks very well written :). Let's hope many people read it and turn it into an interesting discussion
[18:03] <Paladine> thanks
[18:03] <Paladine> I hope so too
[18:05] <DarkEra> olah zequence 
[18:42] <Paladine> dinner back shortly
[19:06] <cub> Getting back to my inquires earlier about checking use cases against the workflows, should the aim to be to test with Saucy? Or is the interest in testing for the released versions as well?
[19:16] <zequence> cub: saucy is prio. Any bugs should be reported, so we have a chance to fix them before release
[19:16] <cub> downloading now
[19:17] <cub> I haven't been involved with development releases before, but if I download the latest iso today and run in virtualbox, it will be able to keep updtated through apt-get still? Or do I need to download new iso-build every time?
[19:18] <zequence> cub: updates are enough
[19:19] <zequence> cub: but, sometimes, especially if an applications is updated to a newer version, like say, XFCE, user settings may not work as intended
[19:19] <cub> ok
[19:20] <zequence> the app is updated, but not necessarily the user settings
[19:26] <DarkEra> zequence, you have the link to saucy's mini.iso's by chance?  seems i lost the last one. Had enough of VB because it just doesn't seem to work on my end so i need to install it on bare metal
[19:30] <zequence> DarkEra: I usually use this page to get the links https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD
[19:30] <zequence> just replace a release name with "saucy"
[19:30] <DarkEra> thanks buddy
[22:55] <DarkEra> looks like it's a total no go. Did a CLI install on the netbook of 13.10, added the ppa and want to install the gnome meta package of Ubuntu Studio. It complains about broken packages
[22:55] <DarkEra> i'm about to drop it