[14:41]  * snwh is away: Away
[14:41]  * snwh is back (gone 00:00:13)
[16:46]  * mpt having trouble designing the sound menu for phone
[16:47] <mpt> If a phone has prominent hardware volume buttons, then a volume slider is somewhat pointless (unlike on PC, where the hardware volume keys are only two of dozens)
[16:47] <mpt> And a volume slider on a touch UI is more likely to cause accidental blaring than a volume slider on a pointing-device UI
[16:48] <xnox> even if there are no hardware volume buttons, the headphones might have hardware volume buttons.
[16:48] <mpt> true
[16:48] <mpt> But then what if audio isn't playing either? The menu will hardly contain anything.
[16:50] <xnox> on android, under settings there is "Volumes" and in there you set 3 volumes: ringtone (phone calls, messages, emails, facebook messages, etc...), media (video playback, games volume, etc), alarm (well alarm).
[16:50] <snwh> those will be accessed far less frequently then general volume, if at all
[16:50] <mpt> That might make sense in Settings, but yeah, not in an omnipresent menu.
[16:51] <xnox> the problem is that it plays back "preview" of how loud that will be, accidentally blaring when one only wanted to set the alarm volume app un-noticed at midnight.
[16:51] <xnox> that's only beginning of problems.
[16:51] <xnox> on android, you never know which volume hardware keys are controlling.
[16:51] <mpt> And on the other hand, if it *doesn't* preview, how are you supposed to know what it does
[16:51] <mpt> what the effect of your choice is, I mean
[16:52] <xnox> e.g. when playing video hardware keys control media volume, but don't change ringtone volume.
[16:52] <xnox> unless a phone call happened to start ringing as you were about to change video volume, then magically you silence your ringtone volume.
[16:53] <xnox> mpt: imho sound menu makes sense and should be able to control current volume, if nothing is in progress than it should act as "activate/diactivate silent mode"
[16:53] <xnox> mpt: and it should always have music player in it.
[16:54] <mpt> On iOS, if audio is playing, the HW buttons controls the volume of that audio. If not, they control the volume of the ringtone and the volume OSD says "ringer".
[16:55] <xnox> i don't know how it should behave, but I know for sure that keys in my pocket manage to silence my iphone and nexus4 with fairly consistent rates, especially when I am waiting for a phone call ;-)
[16:56] <mpt> We don't even have a silent mode, let alone an assumption of a HW button for it.
[16:58] <snwh> mpt, there's no "mute ringer" for when you don't want to talk to someone?
[16:58] <xnox> how am i suppose to go to theatre / cinema / meetings / library?  surely i should be able to set vibrate only.
[17:02] <snwh> there's always a scenario where the HW buttons fail/get broken and the user can't change the volume because there's no slider :P
[17:04] <snwh> mpt, but wouldn't the slider indicate the level of the volume (which buttons do not)
[17:07] <mpt> yeah, that's its main benefit
[17:08] <mpt> though you achieve the same effect by clicking Up then Down :-)
[17:09] <snwh> true
[17:09] <snwh> and 'mute' is kind of redundant, if you just slide it to 0
[17:10] <snwh> so you're left with an empty sound menu xD
[17:12]  * snwh wonders what mpt 's tentative design is
[17:29] <mpt> Yeah, dropping "Mute" was the obvious first step :-)
[17:29] <mpt> snwh ^
[17:29] <mpt> No point in a touch UI
[17:45] <mpt> snwh, drafts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sound#phone-menu
[18:03] <snwh> mpt, why have the media controls omnipresent if an audio application isnt open/running?
[18:04] <mpt> snwh, to start playing music
[18:04] <mpt> Though, I guess only the Play and Music buttons would be useful in that case, not the other three
[18:04] <snwh> yea, I'm reminded of the desktop menu where there's 4 actions that open rhythmbox
[18:14] <mpt> ooh, burn
[18:24] <snwh> mpt, i didn't meant it to burn
[18:25] <mpt> It's a good burn :-)
[18:30] <snwh> I have ointment