[04:08] <InHisName> Howdy jthan
[08:47] <JonathanD> Morning.
[09:13] <rmg51> Morning
[12:20] <teddy-dbear> Morning peoples, dogs, turkeys and everything else
[12:21] <JonathanD> Hi teddy-dbear
[12:21] <teddy-dbear> o/
[12:24] <InHisName> howdy all
[12:27] <JonathanD> hey InHisName
[14:02] <ChinnoDog> morning
[14:04] <JonathanD> hi ChinnoDog
[14:05] <ChinnoDog> What's up?
[14:06] <JonathanD> I'm scheduling the fosscon talks :)
[14:18] <MutantTurkey> I'm trying to think of a moreutils like tool to write
[14:18] <MutantTurkey> I was thinking a vertical diff could be cool
[14:19] <MutantTurkey> diff by column not line
[14:22] <ChinnoDog> k...
[16:36] <MutantTurkey> I'm thinking of starting a pc repair business on the side
[16:53] <ChinnoDog> Better create a formal price structure
[16:57] <patbarron> I won't touch anyone else's PC's anymore, even for pay.  Because anything that goes wrong with that PC in the future, no matter what it is, the person always thinks that it's because of something I did to the machine and wants me to fix it (for free...)
[16:58] <ChinnoDog> Yea, that is the business. lol.
[16:58] <ChinnoDog> If you are going to fix someone's PC then you are on the hook for everything else that happens to it.
[16:58] <pleia2> I think the only way it actually can make you money is if you enjoy it and don't value your time for other htings
[16:58] <patbarron> forever.
[16:58] <ChinnoDog> haha
[16:59] <pleia2> it's not actually a good business model
[16:59] <ChinnoDog> I disagree that you can't make money at it. If you set expectations I think you can make money.
[16:59] <ChinnoDog> People can't expect to use your time for free though.
[16:59] <MutantTurkey> I think a lot of poeple make great money with it
[16:59] <MutantTurkey> thats why you set the standard
[16:59] <MutantTurkey> you clearly charge XYZ and that's that.
[16:59] <pleia2> well sure, if you charge $150 per visit like best buy does ;)
[16:59] <MutantTurkey> don't get conned into repairs for free, because then they keep expecting
[16:59] <MutantTurkey> pleia2: or you undercut them and steal the market.
[17:00] <pleia2> I don't even know why I bother
[17:00] <MutantTurkey> ?
[17:00] <ChinnoDog> MutantTurkey, you are selling your time. Undercutting the others isn't necessarily the best strategy.
[17:00] <pleia2> MutantTurkey: it's kind of a cliche for a young technical person to decide to get into computer repair, I'm sure we've all done it, had your identical ideas, and failed miserably
[17:00] <ChinnoDog> You are already better than the alternative by virtue of having a name and a number they can call you at.
[17:01] <MutantTurkey> ChinnoDog: sure, you need to figure out what works for you, but I think it's not hard to undercut something like best buy
[17:01] <MutantTurkey> with terrible service, slow response times, and bad results at a high cost
[17:01] <MutantTurkey> pleia2: I guess, maybe because it's a good thing to make some money on the side?
[17:02] <MutantTurkey> I see a lot of non-technical people who need basic help, hell even being a consultant would be cool, because technical people might need help too
[17:02] <ChinnoDog> MutantTurkey, you have no idea what you are getting into. If you want more suggestions from me out of my experience though I am happy to provide them.
[17:02] <MutantTurkey> ChinnoDog: what sort of services did you provide?
[17:02] <pleia2> good luck
[17:02] <MutantTurkey> businesses or individuals?
[17:04] <patbarron> One of the problems with a defined rate structure, is that (especially with non-technical folks), most of their problems don't/won't fit into neat little boxes...
[17:05] <patbarron> The last time I touched someone's PC, it was a non-tech who wanted help getting Norton Antivirus on his machine, because he couldn't cope with "put the CD in and follow the instructions"...
[17:05] <ChinnoDog> Yea, there is that problem too.
[17:05] <patbarron> A week later, he calls me up, all upset - "Ever since you put that Norton on my machine, my printer doesn't print anymore!"
[17:06] <patbarron> So I go over there and take a look at it.  Out of ink...
[17:06] <JonathanD> patbarron: his telephone sounds kind of staticy too, obviously related to norton.
[17:06] <patbarron> That's the sort of stuff I used to get all the time...  I just couldn't stand it anymore...
[17:06] <JonathanD> I have a couple people I will do work for (for pay)
[17:07] <JonathanD> it's a rather short list.
[17:07] <JonathanD> And one business, but he pays well and is very flexible.
[17:07] <JonathanD> thats more planning and purchasing than anything, though.
[17:08] <JonathanD> not PC repair.
[17:08] <JonathanD> PC repair is generally awful :)
[17:08] <ChinnoDog> I know someone that did pretty well at it. He networked through his friend's families and eventually became the go-to computer guy for everyone that knew him.
[17:09] <JonathanD> MutantTurkey: heres the thing.
[17:09]  * MutantTurkey is listening
[17:09] <JonathanD> Nearly every single person you meet anywhere has something wrong with their PC.
[17:10] <JonathanD> Most just don't care :)
[17:10] <MutantTurkey> right
[17:10] <JonathanD> at least, not until it becomes unusable.
[17:10] <MutantTurkey> hell even I do...
[17:10] <JonathanD> Most of us do.
[17:10] <JonathanD> That script that doesn't work quite right, but isn't bad enough to fix
[17:10] <JonathanD> etc.
[17:10] <MutantTurkey> piles of unmaintanable code not worth looking at
[17:11] <MutantTurkey> who the hell knows OCaml? not me
[17:11] <JonathanD> It would not suprise me if everyone in this channel has at least one thing that doesn't work right, but works well enough not to fix.
[17:11] <MutantTurkey> sure
[17:11] <JonathanD> That ends up being the kind of stuff people will call you for.
[17:11] <JonathanD> They want to do X with Y.
[17:12] <JonathanD> You tell them Y can't do X.
[17:12] <JonathanD> They want it anyway.
[17:12] <JonathanD> Eventually you leave, 3 months later they bring it up again.
[17:12] <JonathanD> At least, thats what I always found when I did this stuff.
[17:13] <JonathanD> I don't know if being the go-to computer guy for everyone you know is actually desirable.
[17:13] <JonathanD> You want to choose your customers.
[17:14] <patbarron> I kind of (purposely) priced myself out of the market.  Eventually, started telling people - "$75/hr, billing based on actual time spent, minimum 2 hour charge per incident."  If someone really wants me in particular, bad enough to pay what I ask ... we'll talk.
[17:14] <MutantTurkey> but how do you pick?
[17:15] <ChinnoDog> Everyone knew that if they asked him a question though it was going ot cost money
[17:15] <ChinnoDog> Meaning, any work he did would cost money
[17:15] <JonathanD> MutantTurkey: well, kinda like what patbarron just said, you set certain expectations.
[17:15] <MutantTurkey> so what's the problem ChinnoDog ?
[17:15] <MutantTurkey> what I am hearing: make it clear so that the customer gets what you exactly say and expects what you say
[17:16] <MutantTurkey> that is why I think doing small businesses could potentially be better
[17:16] <MutantTurkey> but possibly not
[17:16] <patbarron> And also, make sure the customer understands that if you didn't agree to it explicitly, it's not included...
[17:17] <MutantTurkey> sure, i feel like i need to be a lawyer first :p
[17:17] <ChinnoDog> MutantTurkey: It isn't a problem so long as your customers are respectful of your time.
[17:17] <MutantTurkey> right
[17:18] <MutantTurkey> then again working as a underling in Acedamia there isn't a lot of that either
[17:18] <MutantTurkey> right waltman?
[17:20] <waltman> time has no meaning in academia
[17:21] <ChinnoDog> haha
[17:22] <waltman> MutantTurkey: is this because Cricket wants you to fix her computer? :)
[17:23] <MutantTurkey> more like fix the servers she keeps crashing...!
[17:24] <waltman> heh
[17:24] <waltman> sysadmin sounds like a better careerpath than computer fixer
[17:27] <ChinnoDog> Computer repair business owner sounds like a better career path than sysadmin.
[17:28] <ChinnoDog> Especially if you sit in your office and chat on IRC all day while your minions fix computers.
[17:28] <MutantTurkey> ChinnoDog: true
[17:29] <waltman> heh
[17:35] <jedijf> isn't the new price point getting too low. general public will replace rather than repair
[17:48] <jedijf> hen i grab off curb with plans to refurbish.....and never get to it
[17:48] <jedijf> *then
[17:52] <ChinnoDog> That is true too but they still need help getting their old data to the new system and helping them get rid of the old one could have a return.
[17:55] <ChinnoDog> Helping them select a new system can also be a paid activity.
[19:47] <bts3685> my $0.02: sysadmin > pc tech
[19:50] <bts3685> any schmuck can get an A+ cert and say they're qualified. the real money- and what you'll want to pursue- is asterisk. learn that and you'll have to turn down offers because you'll have so many clients
[19:50]  * bts3685 has had to do that
[19:51] <bts3685> VoIP is something nobody has time to learn but everybody (in the corporate world) wants