=== alpacaherder is now known as skellat
forestpiskiepleia2: glad to hear it :p07:17
ochosihi everyone (and knome), i don't think i'll be able to make the meeting today08:34
ochosikinda a bad time for me08:34
ochosi(still possible that i do, just wanted to let you guys know in advance)08:34
elfythanks 08:45
bluesabreFor the meeting, I'm going to try to connect with my phone or something.  The owners of my company are going to be in today, so no laptop in the office09:46
lderancursed owners :P10:16
elfyhi ToZ 14:51
ToZHi elfy14:52
* pleia2 yawns14:56
elfymorning pleia2 14:56
knome4 minutes14:56
bluesabre_workmorning folks :)14:57
elfyhi bluesabre_work 14:57
knomehey both of skellat's arms14:57
skellatGetting warmed up14:58
GridCubei dont know how longer my modem will stay connected so ill INFO now14:58
* knome just put the coffee maker on14:58
elfyhi jono :)14:58
knomehey jono!14:58
* skellat checks to see his decaf tea mug to see if it is optimally filled14:58
jonohey knome :-)14:58
elfyskellat: they make decaf tea - I am appalled :|15:00
skellatelfy: I can't have caffeine15:00
knome#startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting15:00
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Jul 11 15:00:20 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.15:00
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired15:00
knome#chair elfy pleia2 15:00
meetingologyCurrent chairs: elfy knome pleia215:00
elfymicahg-work: ping15:00
jonohey everyone :-)15:00
lderanhello :)15:00
skellatGood morning jono15:00
knomesince we have jono as a guest here today, and he has a tight schedule i'm sure, let's go ahead with the mir discussion right away15:00
knome#topic Mir, XMir, X, and stuff (with Jono Bacon) 15:01
bluesabre_worksounds good to me15:01
jonothanks knome :-)15:01
jonoso I have been reaching out to each of the flavors to discuss Mir15:01
jonoand to discuss their plans for 13.10 and 14.0415:01
jonomuch of the discussions so far has been the flavors asking technical questions about Mir and what is involved in integrating it15:02
jonoso I just wanted to reach out to you folks to see what Xubuntu's perspective is, and if there is any support and guidance I can help with, or the Mir team can help with15:03
elfyjono: these discussions documented anywhere ?15:03
jonoelfy, no, they have been on phone calls15:03
knomei suppose the first question has to be: what options do we have and which of those are more or less "canonical-supported"15:03
jonoknome, good question15:04
jonoso these are the options I think:15:04
jonofor 13.10:15:04
jono * XMir + Mir - this will been you can run XFCE without any changes - it will run just like normal on the XMir compatibility layer15:04
jonoXMir is currently seeing a wealth of performance improvements and will match the speed of X in 13.1015:05
jonoXMir + Mir will be fully supported by Canonical and will be our primary display server stack15:05
jonoalso, XMir is a very thin layer so it should not introduce any bugs into Xubuntu, and if you do see a bug, it will be so obvious it is XMir15:06
jono * Use the regular X stack - Canonical will not be maintaining a regular X stack, the X we will maintain will be XMir + Mir15:06
jonofor 14.04:15:06
jono * XMir + Mir - again, you can ship XFCE just like normal using our X compatibility layer15:06
micahg-workjono, I thought for 13.10 Canonical would maintain the X stack as a fallback for those drivers that aren't supported by XMir15:07
jono * Use the regular X stack - again, Canonical will not be supporting X in 14.04, and I suspect this will degrade as the five year support period progresses15:07
jono * XFCE using Mir - another option, and one which we would like to encourage upstreams with, is to build a Mir backend for the desktop15:08
pleia2our upstream is a smaller team than we are, I think getting Xfce to write for Mir is highly unlikely15:09
jonomicahg-work, yes, so if a driver cannot work with Mir (at the moment, proprietary drivers) it will fallback to X15:09
knome+1 for micahg-work's and pleia2's comments15:09
micahg-workjono, as we're not even sure if we're shipping Xfce 4.12  as it's not released, having Mir as a backend for Xfce in the 14.04 timeframe is very unlikely15:09
pleia2(they don't even have Waylan plans right now)15:09
jonomicahg-work, so we will maintain the fallback15:09
jonopleia2, I can understand that concern15:09
pleia2I also have concern that we're halfway through the cycle and not only is xmir not in the repos, but when Unit193, skellat and I tested it, only skellat was actually able to get it to run15:09
bluesabre_workI also tested it with no luck15:10
skellatWhen I had that up the experience was clearly sub-optimal15:10
jonopleia2, XMir should land in the next two weeks, and you can test XFCE with Xmir today using the PPA in the interim15:10
skellatWe have users, not test subjects15:10
knomejono, so should we interpret that as you will or will not maintain X in 13.03?15:10
pleia2jono: we tried to use the PPA, it fails15:10
Unit193In theory you can test it, the one from the PPA just crashed at startup, on all 3 computers I tried.15:11
jonoknome, to be clearer, our maintained X stack will be XMir + Mir, not desktops using X directly15:11
pleia2yeah, all mine fail back to xorg15:11
jonopleia2, when did you try it?15:11
pleia2jono: last night15:11
jonopleia2, ahhh, I thought that was fixed15:11
jonothere was an issue in the last few days15:11
skellatI got it to boot last night on a System76 Starling netbook but the UI experience was suboptimal with two cursors barely tracking each other correctly15:11
micahg-workjono, why for 13.10 is the X stack support being dropped since it's still the fallback?15:11
jonopleia2, I will ensure the Mir team look into that15:11
jonoskellat, the two cursor thing is temporary - the second cursor just shows you are in Mir15:12
jonoskellat, that will be removed soon and a watermark used15:12
skellatjono: They shouldn't be **both** moving like a bad VirtualBox session though15:12
jonoskellat, it is *temporary* :-)15:12
jonoskellat, it is a poor man's watermark :-)15:12
jonomicahg-work, X is not dropped, it will be just maintained to support XMir15:13
knomejono, is there a mailing list or other output where the mir-related news are updated (and mir-devel isn't what i'm looking for, that's too high traffic)15:13
jonomicahg-work, I think a Mir engineer can provide a better response on this question on the details, I will note that down15:13
jonoknome, you raise a great question15:13
micahg-workjono, right, I get the X stack through XMir is supported, I'm just not sure why straight X support would be dropped for 13.10 being that it's the fallback (I understand for 14.04)15:14
jonoknome, so in terms of a list, we don't have anything for just updates, but I have been thinking about providing weekly flavor updates of Mir progress, would that be useful?15:14
jonomicahg-work, I will check with the Mir team with what the difference is15:14
knomejono, that sounds fair. if it's doable, just subscribe our developer mailing list for that mailing.15:14
jonoknome, will do, thanks for the note15:14
jonowe do have the weekly video update, but I understand that that is not the same15:14
GridCubenope 15:15
jonoso it sounds like upstream are currently focusing on X, is that right?15:15
Unit193From what I've seen, Mir/XMir isn't even planning on getting virtual support until August, that's pretty close to release date (And FF?)...15:15
pleia2unfortunately we're all pretty busy, it's impossible for most of us to take an hour out of our week to watch a video15:15
jonoUnit193, virtual support?15:16
GridCubexfce upstream yes15:16
knomejono, they have pretty much only one active contributor, so they aren't really "focusing" on any display server...15:16
Unit193jono: vmware, virtualbox.15:16
pleia2scanning IRC logs and similar is much faster and easier15:16
jonoknome, gotcha15:16
knomepleia2, or a good old email15:16
pleia2or at least having a summary emailed somewhere so we know if portions of the video are worth our time15:16
skellatA late drop toward Feature Freeze has us worried that there would be a need to scramble in case we find that we feel XMir is not in a condition we feel comfortable shipping to users.15:16
pleia2skellat: +115:16
jonoknome, so in terms of Xubuntu, upstream can continue to ship an X display server in 14.0415:16
skellatWe want our users to have a finished product instead of a work in progress.15:16
jonowith XMir15:16
jonoUnit193, I haven't tested it in a VM, I have heard mixed reports of whether it works15:17
jonoUnit193, but I think you face that issue with Wayland too15:17
Unit193It doesn't in vbox.15:17
Unit193I don't with X.15:17
knomei've heard it simply "does not work" with virtualbox.15:17
pleia2jono: understand, wayland is not even on the horizon for us15:17
skellatI had a race condition with VirtualBox last night testing our test disc that locked up my machine totally15:17
pleia2it's not on Xfce's roadmap at all15:17
jonopleia2, I think an email summary might be easiest - we take notes for the video, I could send those15:17
jonopleia2, right15:17
pleia2so we're talking about sticking with xorg or using xmir, no mir or wayland in the discussion :)15:18
jonook, so it sounds like the primary focus here for you folks is being able to ship the current codebase, and test it with XMir15:18
pleia2yeah, since most of our tests fail this is a very concerning situation15:18
mrpouithow far is xmir wrt xrandr support?15:18
mrpouitand xi?15:18
jonowhoever tested the PPA and it failed, could you email a summary of the problem?15:18
knomeUnit193, can you coordinate a... coordinated reply? :)15:19
jonoI recommend we kick off an email discussion thread about getting you folks up and running15:19
pleia2my errors were the same as Unit193's15:19
jonoso it was pleia2 and Unit193 who tested it?15:19
pleia2and bluesabre_work 15:19
knomeand skellat and bluesabre_work 15:19
skellatjono: And me15:19
bluesabre_workmine as well15:19
elfyI can look at trying it as well on one of the lappies15:19
pleia2it worked for skellat though :)15:19
Unit193pleia2: I had a couple different ones.15:19
lderanaye same15:19
elfyso it won't be virtual 15:19
knomei can probably chime in with some hardware at some point15:19
knome(if badly needed)15:19
jonook, pleia2, would you mind starting an email thread with everyone involved and copying me in, and summarize the issues, I will then copy a Mir engineer in15:20
skellatpleia2: It bootstrapped but wasn't very functional.  Not sure if that counts as worked.15:20
jonothis is also pretty temporary, it should land in the archive in the next few weeks, but at least in the interim you can do some testing15:20
knomepleia2, please delegate to Unit193 and make sure he CC's xubuntu-devel ;)15:20
jonoskellat, define functional?15:20
holsteinpleia2: if you can easily, add me. i will test with a machine i am wiping this week15:20
pleia2#action Unit193 to collect details about Mir failures and email to -devel, jono and testers15:21
meetingologyACTION: Unit193 to collect details about Mir failures and email to -devel, jono and testers15:21
skellatjono: Being able to boot without the kernel apparently going into a fault condition and nm-applet failing15:21
skellatI couldn't report flaws as it wouldn't connect to a network15:21
jonoskellat, that is outside of XMir15:21
slickymasterpleia2, you can also include me if you want. I can test it, also15:21
jonoskellat, that sounds like another issue15:21
pleia2slickymaster: great! (and welcome :))15:21
micahg-workwell, the sooner it lands, the sooner we can evaluate, I think we'd like to take a decision about a week before feature freeze whether or not to go with XMir for 13.1015:21
jonotoday XFCE should work as expected with XMir, apart from the annoying extra cursor15:21
skellatjono: We'll park that then for later review15:21
pleia2micahg-work: +115:22
jonomulti-monitor is also being worked on and will not expose any regressions in Mir15:22
knomei definitely +1 micahg-work15:22
* elfy does as well15:22
micahg-workjono, can you speak to mr_pouit's questions?  they revolve around some base functionality15:22
skellat+1 micahg-work15:22
jonomicahg-work, agreed, rest assured the Mir team are peddling as fast as they can :-)15:22
knomejono, d'oh, don't promise us that since it will have bugs (not to say i don't believe you don't fix them ;))15:22
jonomicahg-work, which questions?15:22
elfy<mrpouit> how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?15:22
elfy<mrpouit> and xi?15:22
pleia208:18:28 < mrpouit> how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?15:22
micahg-work<mrpouit> how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?15:22
micahg-work<mrpouit> and xi?15:22
pleia208:18:45 < mrpouit> and xi?15:22
knomeflood alert!15:23
jonoknome, I am sure there will be some bugs, but we will get 'em fixed :-)15:23
knomethere are three trolls in the channel..15:23
jonomrpouit, are you referring specifically to multi-monitor?15:23
mrpouitjono, yes15:23
jonomrpouit, so the goal for 13.10 is zero regressions15:23
mrpouitffrom what I could find (basically, nothing, xmir isn't documented at all), there's no plan15:23
jonosome reading that will help:15:23
jono * blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1310-mir-multimonitor15:23
jono * thread: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/mir-devel/2013-June/000235.html15:24
jonomrpouit, if you have any further questions, mir-devel will be the best place to ask them, the engineers live there15:24
knomeso what's the situation with (X)Mir documentation in general?15:24
jonoknome, what kind of docs do you mean?15:25
jonointegrating it?15:25
knomeany documentation.15:25
mrpouitI think he means: "written documentation", without needing to listen to 1-hour long videos15:26
knome^ that15:26
jonoknome, docs currently live at http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/15:26
jonothe docs are improving each week too15:26
knomemrpouit, do you have insight if that's even near what we'd need?15:26
jonoif you have any further questions about integration Mir, the Mir team can help answer them15:26
jonoI have asked dholbach to merge new docs into the core Mir docs15:27
knomejono, i would say one of the things that really should start working is xmir with virtualbox15:27
jonoknome, I will note down to see where that sits right now15:27
mrpouitknome, yeah, planning for example. Also, what about ewmh, xrandr, xi? Will the support be identical to Xorg?15:27
jonoI am not sure how far along that is15:27
jonomrpouit, yes15:27
jonoeverything should be the same15:27
jonomrpouit, but again, if you have specific questions, mir-devel is the best place to ask15:28
Unit193"Should be", and "are" aren't always the same. ;)15:28
knomesince we have an already small testing team and many of the tests are run with virtualbox... you can see where you leave us if xmir isn't working with it15:28
mrpouitjono, is it the same kind of promise as "gtk2 indicators will be maintained during all the 12.04 lifetime", and they got dropped for 12.10? :)15:28
jonoUnit193, which is why I am recommending mrpouit posts to the list ;-)15:28
jonoknome, can you elaborate on the tests? automated tests?15:28
knomejono, manual tests15:29
jonomrpouit, I don't know about indicator support15:29
jonoknome, ahhh gotcha, well I will see if it runs in a VM, I have heard mixed reports tbh15:29
bluesabre_workjono, what are the additional memory requirements of using XMir as opposed to just X?15:29
knomejono, i suppose he's asking that you keep what you promise - that wasn't the case with the gtk2 indicators15:29
pleia2none of us have gotten it to work in virtualbox either15:29
knomejono, as i said, i've heard that it simply doesn't work with virtualbox.15:30
mrpouitjono: basically, you're asking us to trust you on that, because right now to be able to take an informed decision we have to wait for the bits to land, and they land very very late, when it's too late to decide...15:30
jonoknome, XMir will definitely be supported as we need it to ship Unity :-)15:30
jonomrpouit, I appreciate that, but the Mir team can only work so fast15:30
skellatmrpouit: What date would you call as the "point of no return" where we need to make decisions?15:30
jonowhich is why I am recommending you test with the PPA - the issues with the PPA recently were a blip15:30
pleia2we've all been testing with the ppa15:31
Unit193And it's crashed over and over.15:31
jonopleia2, if there are issues with the PPA I would encourage you to report them to mir-devel so the devs can get them fixed15:31
jonothey are very responsive15:31
knomejono, it doesn't work with hardware or virtualbox. if you can't promise it won't work for 13.10, don't15:31
jonoknome, can't promise what will work?15:32
knomejono, (x)mir for xubuntu15:32
mrpouitskellat, I'm not sure, this is probably a question for the testers too, but end of july would have been the limit (after that people go to vacation/will be less available). Maybe we can wait until feature freeze, but meh :P15:32
jonoknome, I can promise XMir will work in the archive15:32
jonowe have committed to that15:32
jonoagain, we need it to ship Ubuntu itself15:32
elfycommitted to it working with Ubuntu or everything? 15:33
knomeelfy, +115:33
lderancommitted to it being in a usable state for everything as well?15:33
jonoelfy, we are committed to XMir being the X stack that all flavors can use for their desktops too15:33
mrpouitjono, "we're rushing it into 13.10 so 14.04 can be rock-solid" (basically what Olli Ries wrote) isn't very reassuring15:34
jonoif we make XMir work for Ubuntu, it will work for flavors15:34
elfymrpouit: +115:34
micahg-workI'm not worried about XMir being usable for Ubuntu by release, I'm worried about it being usable enough that we can make an informed decision in time15:34
jonomrpouit, it is what it is - it is shipping in 13.1015:34
jonothis isnt rushing it, this is shipping it15:34
knomejono, that's not assuring for us15:34
jonoknome, what isn't reassuring?15:34
mrpouitjono, "it is what it is" << are you really here to listen to our concerns?15:34
knomejono, "it will work for flavors", since flavors *aren't* the focus of (x)mir or canonical-paid developers15:35
jonomrpouit, I believe I am being responsive to your concerns, but my point is: XMir is landing in 13.10, nothing we discuss here is going to change that - my goal here is to provide as much support as possible to our flavors15:35
knomejono, and i understand that, but if you are going to make it work barely in time for ubuntu, why should we trust it's usable for us in 13.10? 15:35
jonoknome, I think that is a fair point15:35
skellatjono: XMir isn't going to turn out like 100 scopes did then?15:35
jonoif you folks don't feel you have the time to use XMir between when XMir lands and when you ship, that is a reasonable concern15:36
knomejono, that just doesn't make sense, even if mark put half of his money and dirty socks in the gamble.15:36
jonobut there isn't much we can do about it as we can't land Mir any earlier as they are currently working on integrating it15:36
jonoskellat, ?15:36
jonoskellat, what do you mean?15:36
jonoknome, I agree you folks need to make your own call about whether the timelines work for you15:37
jonoI agree that it is right15:37
knomejono, that is exactly our concern; stuff landing too late so we don't really have time to make a decision and not even talking about testing and making it integrated for *us*15:37
jonobut the Mir team are working long day and nights to get it in ASAP15:37
elfywe understand that jono 15:37
elfybut we're concerned about us at the moment 15:37
skellatjono: 100 scopes was a major commitment for R that had to be delayed to S because it missed deadlines and wasn't in a ship-worthy state in time15:37
Unit193#action Unit193 to rebuild the XMir ISO once sufficient changes land in the PPA.15:38
meetingologyACTION: Unit193 to rebuild the XMir ISO once sufficient changes land in the PPA.15:38
lderanim sure their work will come to fruition well with ubuntu15:38
jonoskellat, yes, it was delayed because the quality wasnt there - we had received criticism about not shipping low quality code, so we were receptive to that15:38
pleia2just to be clear, Xubuntu has always tracked Ubuntu's base and I think we want to here too, we just aren't keen on using our users as guinea pigs on a major portion of the desktop for 13.10 "so it's solid for 14.04"15:38
knomejono, so will the it be the same story with mir?15:38
pleia2we want to give xmir a chance :) it's just quite scary at the moment15:39
jonoif the release and QA team don't approve Mir, it won't go in15:39
jonopleia2, I can understand that15:39
jonoso I think the conclusion here is the following:15:39
jono * XMir is landing in the next few weeks15:39
knometo be fair, how much control does the release and QA teams really have in that if mark wants it in?15:39
jono * the PPA is available for testing, if there are bugs, please report them to mir-devel so we can fix them15:40
mrpouitknome: (zero control, even the release team can not object)15:40
jono * the timescales are short, so the Xubuntu team should make an assessment if XMir is going to work15:40
Unit193So, what was the outcome of contacting Kubuntu and Lubuntu anyway?15:40
jono * the Mir team are here to provide help and guidance for Mir-related questions and issues15:40
knomemrpouit, exactly my point, but i want to hear that from mr. bacon15:40
jonoknome, Mark doesn't override the release tean15:41
mrpouitjono, he does15:41
knomeyes he does.15:41
mrpouitI guess you're not subscribed to the -release bug reports15:41
jonothat is a seperate discussion, I disagree, but lets not derail this15:41
knomejono, that is an important question.15:41
skellatmrpouit micahg-work: I guess we need to set a "point of no return" date for the ease of jono when we have to make a decision on XMir by whether we ship it or not15:41
micahg-workjono, it's a rarely used power, but it is used15:41
elfyjono: well it is part of the dicussion and an important part15:41
pleia2skellat: +115:41
knomejono, we don't want to ship a half-broken mir in xubuntu 13.03.15:42
micahg-workskellat, I think a week before feature freeze is good15:42
pleia2knome: making up version numbers15:42
knomei am15:42
micahg-workthat gives us 6 weeks before final freeze15:42
jonook, so Mark does use his sabdfl power occassionally, I agree, and he might use it for Mir15:42
jonobut I don't see how that affects Xubuntu making a decision about XMir15:42
pleia2micahg-work: sounds good to me15:42
knomejono, so doesn't that effectively lead us to the fact that you really can't promise that mir works with 13.10 ?15:42
knomejono, or the mir team, or anybody15:42
jonoknome, I am promising you based on the information I have15:43
knomejono, and also, nobody still stopping it from getting in15:43
micahg-workjono, it doesn't, I think they were commenting to whether or not MIR will land is up to release + QA15:43
jonoI am not a fortune teller15:43
jonosure, it could completely blow up if the Mir team get hit by a bus15:43
jonomy point is that based on the planning and trajectory, the Mir team is on track to deliver what they promise15:43
micahg-workjono, anyways, I think we'd like to have XMir, if it's ready enough for us, otherwise, we'll reevaluate for 14.0415:43
jonoI am not denying that they may fail, there may be other issues at play15:43
knomeor if they simple can't deliver a stable product on time, which happens with tight schedules, even with the best engineers15:43
jonoknome, right15:44
skellatmicahg-work mrpouit: Feature Freeze hits on August 29th.  Do we want to call the "go/no-go" date as August 22nd then or what is your pleasure?15:44
jonoknome, as I say, I am basing everything on their planning and current progress15:44
jonoI am going to have to run in a second, folks15:44
micahg-workskellat, that's what I'm thinking meeting on Aug 2215:44
jonoI am already really late for a call15:44
jonoI appreciate the feedback15:44
knomejono, so basically, what you are saying is "i hope mir is ready for 13.10", not "i promise mir is ready for 13.10" ?15:45
* skellat thanks jono for taking the time to join us15:45
pleia2thanks jono15:45
micahg-workjono, thanks15:45
elfyjono: indeed, thanks 15:45
lderanthank you jono :)15:45
knomejono, thanks, it's much appreciated (though i'd still like to get a yes/no answer to my last question)15:45
jonoknome, to be clear: the Mir team are targetting 13.10, that is what the full team are working towards, my confidence in that is unimportant, you should assess it yourself15:45
jonono one cares what I think anyway15:45
knomejono, we do, that's why you were invited to this meeting.15:46
jonoknome, I would recommend you reach out to the Mir team directly if you need further assurance15:46
pleia2#agree Call the "go/no-go" date for xmir as August 22nd15:46
jonoknome, I appreciate that, but it seems like every point I have made has been treated with skepticism15:46
jonowhich is fine, which is why I am suggesting you look into it yourself15:46
knomejono, sure, but isn't that expected? :)15:46
jonomy goal here was only to open the discussion15:47
elfyyou did that ;)15:47
jonoknome, tbh, not really15:47
knomejono, anyway, thanks for joining us and have a nice day!15:47
jonoknome, but whatever :-)15:47
micahg-workI would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.0415:47
skellatpleia2: Shall we have a blog post to announce that in the spirit of openness?15:47
pleia2skellat: I'm thinking dev mailing list post that we'll share15:47
lderanhave a good day jono 15:47
jonothanks, all15:47
knome+1 for pleia2 15:47
knomeour website is for communicating with users, and i don't think development related deadline dates fall into that category15:48
pleia2(our blog is more user-facing, most think Mir is just a space station that landed in the ocean :))15:48
skellat#info (11:47:17 AM) micahg-work: I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.0415:48
skellatknome pleia2: Understood15:48
bluesabre_workthanks jono, have fun!15:48
xnoxknome: mir is ready enough for me, works fine on my desktop. intel graphics.15:48
knomexnox, with xfce?15:48
pleia2xnox: intel is the key15:48
knomeright, that's probably a fair point15:49
micahg-workxnox, right, no binary drivers ATM 15:49
knomelet's test it with non-intel15:49
GridCubeor non high end computers 15:49
xnoxknome: pleia2: there a lot of work done with binary driver providers, but it's a relationship canonical is managing and those binary blobs are not released yet.15:49
lderani have some amd machine i can use, their a bit old to boot15:49
pleia2alright, let's get this meteing back on track15:49
micahg-workright, once we have a decision, we can blog about it15:49
pleia2we can discuss mir later15:49
elfypleia2: agreed 15:50
knomexnox, so what you are basically saying that, as we know, "it's not working" :)15:50
knomeagreed as well.15:50
knomeshould we discuss about the deadline date?15:50
xnoxknome: what i am saying "it's actually being actively worked on"15:50
knomeor is everybody fine with august 22?15:50
xnoxto get the binary blobs written & working.15:50
knomexnox, yes, prefixed with "it's not working, but"15:50
pleia2knome: I think we're all good with that15:50
knomexnox, sorry, i'm not trying to be annoying. :)15:50
elfy+1 to date 15:51
knomexnox, i hear you, and i think it's great people are actually working on it and not just "planning" stuff15:51
knomeok, that's it for the mir discussion115:51
knome! too15:51
knome#topic Items carried on15:51
knome#subtopic Open action items from previous meeting 15:51
knome#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings#Xubuntu.2BAC8-Meetings.2BAC8-Archive.2BAC8-Minutes.2BAC8-2013-06-13.Action_items.2C_by_person15:51
xnoxknome: the binary blobs do work with mir on nexus devices, so existing ones can be made to work with it. (case in point tegra platform of nexus7 has nvidia binary blobs)15:51
knomeanything that's actually been done?15:51
skellatknome: I can report on the bugs team topic15:51
xnoxknome: *some* binary drivers already work with mir ;-)15:52
pleia2boo, slow wiki15:52
bluesabre_work#info lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6 is in the saucy repos15:52
knomexnox, *some* people already understand we need to cut down our gasoline usage...15:52
lderanloaded fast for once, scary stuff15:52
knomexnox, sorry for the low blow... :P15:52
lderanba'dum tish15:52
knomeskellat, sure, go ahead15:52
pleia2saw the new login screen when trying to test xmir last night, very nice :)15:52
knomeyes, that's an improvement15:53
bluesabre_workit will look even nicer when the updated artwork hits15:53
pleia2#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2013-06-1315:53
* pleia2 browses action items15:53
skellatknome: Actually, on second thought, I'll defer both to next meeting since I'm still pondering XMir at this point15:53
knomeskellat, sure. :)15:53
knomepleia2, didn't the link i pasted work for you?15:53
skellat#action skellat to continue work on items from 2013-06-13 meeting15:53
meetingologyACTION: skellat to continue work on items from 2013-06-13 meeting15:53
pleia2knome: oh, I r teh blind15:53
bluesabre_work#info we do not have an interface for setting a user profile image15:54
bluesabre_workbut I can throw together a simple lightweight one if desired15:54
knomebluesabre_work, for good, or... ?15:54
Unit193cp Pictures/myface.jpg .face  ?  :P15:54
xnoxknome: I hope I understand what that meant. It's all funny and playful, yet each cycle we land millions of new lines of code and make all of that work. With massive amounts of porting work.15:54
knomebluesabre_work, if that's trivial enough to not keep you away from other things you are planning to deliver this cycle15:54
GridCubei say that that would be nice15:54
bluesabre_workUnit193: thats for advanced users ;)15:54
xnoxknome: to be honest, I am always scared of each X/kernel/gcc/libc upgrades, cause I find things broken.15:55
bluesabre_workknome: I'm not worried about it tbh15:55
xnoxknome: but at the same time we work hard on making it work.15:55
knomexnox, i understand your point. but for me, as a non-technical person, if it doesn't work, i don't care how close we are to "it works". it's a boolean ;)15:55
xnoxknome: and Mir is no different. using and testing it is the only way to prove when it's ready & usable.15:55
knomebluesabre_work, in that case, yes, we would like you to do that15:55
xnoxknome: nothing gets a magical label "stable" and everyone starts using it, instead typically "everyone is on $foo" thenst it's ready.15:56
micahg-workxnox, normal upstreams have a concept of "stable"15:56
bluesabre_work#action bluesabre to create a basic user-profile-image app15:57
meetingologyACTION: bluesabre to create a basic user-profile-image app15:57
knomexnox, sure. again, i'm not trying to be annoying. i definitely understand your point and respect both the mir developers and your work :)15:57
xnoxknome: =)))))15:57
knomeanything else on the action items?15:57
pleia2mine was done, now GridCube is well on his way with the desktop image submission team15:57
knome(each person, can you #action any items again that's NOT done)15:58
pleia2#info completed completed submission guidelines for desktop image submissions15:58
knome#action knome sends email about adding other members to xubuntu-release 15:58
meetingologyACTION: knome sends email about adding other members to xubuntu-release15:58
elfy#action greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork15:58
meetingologyACTION: greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork15:58
pleia2too many words15:58
skellat#action (11:47:17 AM) micahg-work: I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.0415:58
meetingologyACTION: (11:47:17 AM) micahg-work: I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.0415:58
xnoxknome: 13.10 will ship X server one will be able to boot, whether X or XMir or Mir is the _default_ is irrelevant politics. And that's the best non-technical promise one can have.15:58
elfy#action elfy greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork15:58
meetingologyACTION: elfy greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork15:58
micahg-work#action micahg to ITP gtk-theme-config to Debian15:58
meetingologyACTION: micahg to ITP gtk-theme-config to Debian15:58
knomexnox, that's a good one.15:58
elfy#action elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us 15:59
meetingologyACTION: elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us15:59
skellat#action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so15:59
meetingologyACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so15:59
bluesabre_workxnox, knome: but what happens when a user installs xubuntu-desktop from an ubuntu-desktop installation?15:59
knomebluesabre_work, that's something we should've asked jono, but i doubt he would have had an answer15:59
skellat#action skellat to develop a proposal for consideration for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs15:59
meetingologyACTION: skellat to develop a proposal for consideration for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs15:59
knome(or anybody at this point tbh)15:59
micahg-workbluesabre_work, that's fine, it'll just work15:59
knomeeverybody happy with the action items?16:00
skellatHas anybody gotten an update since we last met about the status of Xfce 4.12?16:00
micahg-workthe main issue will be if XMir supports the hardware we want to support for 13.1016:00
GridCubeHavent heard any16:00
xnoxbluesabre_work: a package xubuntu-desktop is installed =) that doesn't directly changes/installs X server or Mir. All images at the moment are build with X by default, thus one will still have X16:01
knomethe status of xfce 4.12 is "we understand xubuntu's point of view, but we want to unbreak some more things and there is no estimate when that's done"16:01
elfybluesabre_work: as far as the greeter is concerned - do we need to wait for the artwork? 16:01
skellatknome: Please make that an INFO item16:01
xnoxbluesabre_work: the promise is that $flavour-desktop tasks are independs on X/XMir/Mir choice.16:01
knome#info knome discussed xfce 4.12 release plans with nick, and the status is "we understand xubuntu's point of view, but we want to unbreak some more things and there is no estimate when that's done"16:01
bluesabre_workelfy: the annoying thing is that any gtk3 menus in 13.10 right now will look bad (thanks to gtk 3.8)16:02
knomeskellat, thanks for reminding...16:02
bluesabre_workfixed in the latest artwork stuff, yet to be uploaded from what I last heard16:02
lderanoh dear16:02
micahg-workbluesabre_work, is that a bug in our theme or gtk 3.8?16:02
knomeare we fine with the action items now?16:02
elfybluesabre_work: so leave it for the moment? 16:02
elfyknome: I'm happy with mine 16:02
knome#topic Team updates (All contributors)16:03
bluesabre_workmicahg-work, elfy: should be fine to test, just a theming change with gtk 3.816:03
knomeany updates not yet covered on the action items?16:03
ochosibluesabre_work: wait, hasn't mrpouit uploaded a new version of shimmer-themes already?16:03
elfybluesabre_work: k - I'll get on tiwht the testcase and then we can look at asking for people to test it 16:03
bluesabre_workochosi: not sure, has he? :)16:03
mrpouityea, I did16:03
mrpouitunless it's outdated already?16:03
bluesabre_workwell there ya go16:03
bluesabre_workready to test :D16:03
knome#info mrpouit uploaded a new version of shimmer-themes to saucy16:03
ochosimrpouit: no, it's not outdated. but did you use the git-releases or snapshots?16:04
lderani've started to write autopilot tests for the settings window16:04
mrpouitochosi, latest tags16:04
skellat#info skellat is running Xfce on Jessie on his BeagleBoard and comparing how such runs with Xfce in Xubuntu16:04
knomewho's jessie?16:04
ochosimrpouit: and not all themes were gtk3.8 compatible yet at that point, now Orion, Greybird, Numix and Bluebird should be16:04
knomelderan, #info please!16:04
* knome fills the cup with more coffee16:05
lderan#info lderan has started to write autopilot tests starting with the settings window16:05
lderanlike that?16:05
elfy#info elfy manual testcase call for help went out - plenty of response so far - we've got 18 left not claimed and I'd added 6 at the weekend16:05
knomelderan, yes, thanks :)16:06
skellatknome: Debian Testing16:06
skellat#info skellat notes Jessie is Debian Testing16:06
knomeah, right16:07
knomemakes more sense now...16:07
knomemore updates?16:07
bluesabre_workmrpouit, micahg-work: now that I have started doing packaging, what would be the roadmap for me to become an official "xubuntu-developer"?16:07
mrpouitbluesabre, there are a few pending merges left (I have the list at home), you can take them if you want16:08
knomebluesabre_work, can you go on with that after the meeting?16:08
bluesabre_workknome: sure thing16:08
bluesabre_workmrpouit: works for me16:08
knomemrpouit, micahg-work: or do you think there's something that concerns the whole community?16:08
elfy#info elfy would really like people to talk to him about anything that they think needs testing planned for 16:09
skellatmrpouit micahg-work: I just ask if the apt-offline merge into the seed & the related bug could be disposed of eventually16:09
knome#action team to talk with elfy if anything needs testing16:09
meetingologyACTION: team to talk with elfy if anything needs testing16:09
knome#nick team16:09
elfyknome: that's better :p16:09
micahg-workskellat, yeah, that's easy enough to do16:09
knome#topic New and emerging items16:10
knome#subtopic Members for Xubuntu release team16:10
knomeatm me and elfy are members of the release team able to push buttons16:10
knomei'd like one developer to join us16:10
knomemicahg-work, mrpouit, bluesabre_work: volunteers?16:10
mrpouitskellat, yep, I guess they are lost in my mailbox somewhere ;>16:10
micahg-workknome, I'm not "around" for releases anymore, so it's hard for me16:11
bluesabre_workknome: sure, I can help16:11
knomemrpouit, you happy with bluesabre_work taking that spot?16:12
bluesabre_workgive it to mrpouit if you don't want to wait on a learning curve :)16:12
knomewe all need to learn, it's got tools that didn't exist before :P16:12
pleia2I think you can handle it16:13
knomeand it's anyway more on being around and understanding code16:13
bluesabre_workso, the fun stuff16:13
knomejust for the sake of it...16:13
knome#vote Sean (bluesabre) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no16:14
meetingologyPlease vote on: Sean (bluesabre) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no16:14
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)16:14
mrpouitknome, yeah, I'm not sure to be around, but I can try too16:14
knometeam can vote.16:14
meetingology+1 received from skellat16:14
meetingology+1 received from knome16:14
meetingology+1 received from elfy16:14
lderanwell it will be a while before I can help with that i bet :P16:14
knomemrpouit, i'm fine with four members :>16:14
meetingology+1 received from pleia216:14
meetingology+1 received from GridCube16:14
meetingology+1 received from ochosi16:14
meetingology+1 received from Unit19316:14
knomelderan, probably a bit, yes16:14
meetingology+1 received from bluesabre_work16:14
bluesabre_workwhy not ;)16:14
knomelderan, but you're on your way there!16:14
knomebluesabre_work, hehe16:14
meetingologyVoting ended on: Sean (bluesabre) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no16:14
meetingologyVotes for:8 Votes against:0 Abstentions:016:14
meetingologyMotion carried16:14
knome#vote Lionel (mrpouit) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no16:15
meetingologyPlease vote on: Lionel (mrpouit) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no16:15
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)16:15
meetingology+1 received from elfy16:15
knometeam can vote.16:15
meetingology+1 received from knome16:15
meetingology+1 received from bluesabre_work16:15
meetingology+1 received from GridCube16:15
meetingology+1 received from Unit19316:15
meetingology+1 received from skellat16:15
elfyhe didn't like that vote then :p16:16
meetingology+1 received from pleia216:16
knomeanybody want to vote against? :P16:16
bluesabre_workhe didn't want to see the final results16:16
meetingologyVoting ended on: Lionel (mrpouit) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no16:16
meetingologyVotes for:7 Votes against:0 Abstentions:016:16
meetingologyMotion carried16:16
micahg-workoh, hrm16:16
knomethat's enough of us..16:16
elfybluesabre_work: the other one is here still 16:16
knomemicahg-work, you can throw an unofficial +1 :P16:17
skellatmicahg-work: See: https://code.launchpad.net/~skellat/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.saucy-aptoffline-addition/+merge/165516 & https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/118363816:17
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1183638 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "apt-offline needs to be added to metapackage" [Undecided,New]16:17
knomeanyway, let's go fast forward (we need to end the meeting today)16:17
knome#subtopic Proposal for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs16:17
knome#info postponed to next meeting16:17
knome#subtopic Xubuntu desktop showcase group progress16:17
GridCube#info  a group on dA http://xubuntu-showcase.deviantart.com/ still waiting for those who applied to join me to a walkthrough16:19
skellat#INFO GridCube: Work on the wallpaper showcase its being done, we created a new site: http://xubuntu-showcase.deviantart.com/ we still need all the people who volunteer to join me on a walkthrough of the managing of the site16:20
knomewhat's the status on the guidelines? :)16:20
GridCubeOnce i have enough people in the loop pleia2 will broadcast the news to all social site we own16:20
GridCubeguidelines are ready16:21
knomepleia2? confirming that?16:21
GridCubeyou can read them in the group already16:21
bluesabre_workI swung by there the other day, looking good GridCube16:21
lderanaye that it is16:22
GridCubeim sorry tht my internet isnt cooperating this week to get things done faster16:22
pleia2knome: yep16:22
knomeok, great16:22
knome#action pleia2 and GridCube prepare the social media broadcasting16:22
meetingologyACTION: pleia2 and GridCube prepare the social media broadcasting16:22
knomeis that it for that subject?16:23
GridCubeguess so16:23
knomeok, great16:23
knome#subtopic Changing the text on the settings menu 16:23
GridCubei do need the people to join me16:23
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1173767 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "Settings Manager description " [Undecided,Confirmed]16:23
elfyis the bug for this topic16:24
lderanGridCube: I can help out :) i even remembered my devart password :P16:24
knomeGridCube, since many of you aren't actively in IRC, i suppose it's better to cooperate that in the mailing list16:24
knomewhat does people think?16:24
elfyas long as it's in the -dev m/l I'm fine with that 16:24
GridCubeyes. Will make a good mail then16:24
knomenow that we integrated system settings in the settings manager, the description isn't accurate16:24
knomeelfy, sure.16:24
knomeGridCube, if you want feedback/improving round, post it to pad and ping people here16:25
knomeGridCube, but no need to, can also post directly16:25
knome(whatever you wish)16:25
GridCubeWill see how long it turns out to be. 16:25
knomeso what about the settings manager description?16:26
lderanthink it would be good to change the text, tho not sure to what16:26
knomethe current description is "Customize your desktop"16:26
lderanalso theres all the translations for it as well16:26
knomei think we'd need somebody familiar with the code to tell if it's a patch we want to carry with xubuntu16:26
knomethat's my main issue16:26
knomeapart from that i'm all +1 for the change16:26
knomeelfy, can you work to confirm with mr_pouit (i suppose) if the patch is doable?16:27
bluesabre_workif we carry the patch for that string, we'll have to hunt down translators as well16:27
elfyknome: ok16:27
elfy#action elfy talk to mr_pouit re Settings Manager16:28
meetingologyACTION: elfy talk to mr_pouit re Settings Manager16:28
knomebluesabre_work, that's probably the least of our worries... it's just one string, and we can shout the world to help us16:28
knome#subtopic Schedule next meeting16:28
knomeany reasons we should have a meeting in one week?16:28
slickymasterI can translate to Portuguese, if needed16:28
GridCubein two weeks sound good?16:28
elfyslickymaster: ty16:28
lderancould it be a patch that I could do?16:28
bluesabre_workjono said xmir should be in the archive in 2 weeks, right?16:28
knomehmm, alpha 2 is in two weeks16:28
knomelet's have a meeting next week16:29
GridCubeBefore that then?16:29
knomea short one if nothing special turns up16:29
elfy#info elfy include lderan with Settings discsussion16:29
bluesabre_worksounds good to me16:29
elfyknome: I'll be missing but forestpiskie will be here 16:29
knome#info Next community meeting is on Thursday 18 July, 15UTC16:29
elfyif it's the same time ish16:29
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Jul 11 16:29:49 2013 UTC.  16:29
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-07-11-15.00.moin.txt16:29
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-07-11-15.00.html16:29
elfythanks knome 16:29
knomeelfy, yup16:29
lderanah good timing16:30
elfyand everyone else16:30
lderanbye all :)16:30
bluesabre_worknow, we just gotta add that to the gcal :)16:30
knomegosh, i still talked more than jono16:30
elfyha ha ha 16:30
knomepleia2, ^16:30
* bluesabre_work is not surprised16:30
knomehah, thanks :P16:30
knomeanyway, i'm off now16:30
elfycya later knome 16:30
bluesabre_workseeya knome16:30
knomewill post the minutes online later today16:30
bluesabre_workI'm off too, now I can focus on doing work while I'm at work :)16:31
pleia2updated calendar16:31
knome(and please do send the mailing list mail if you need to contact the team before the next meeting)16:31
* pleia2 back2work16:31
knomepleia2, ta16:31
bluesabre_workpleia2: +116:31
knomebluesabre_work, lol, have fun16:31
elfyvasa1 mikodo - good to see you :)16:32
elfyas he left the channel ... 16:32
elfywb mikodo 16:34
mikodoelfy wb?16:35
pleia2welcome back16:35
mikodoI wanted to see if the meeting would still be logged16:36
elfymikodo: this is the place to ask questions if you've any about what's going on - but it is IRC 16:36
pleia2mikodo: yep! see http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-07-11-15.00.html16:36
elfythe meeting logs will be online shortly and as I said in your thread the ubuntu irc logs are there as well16:36
mikodopleia2, Thanks16:36
pleia2how was I #3 talker16:37
pleia2I didn't say that much :P16:37
* elfy was quiet this time 16:37
mikodoDoes anyone want to summarize the time-lines for Xmir or not16:37
mikodoTo use or not to use16:37
pleia2we'll decide on august 22nd16:38
=== genii_ is now known as genii
elfyhello DanChapman 16:38
pleia2that should give us 3 weeks of testing with it in the repos, and is 1 week before feature freeze16:39
elfymikodo: we're going to be trying to get some testing together - if you're interested I'mm ensure details of it are in your thread16:40
mikodoYou'll ensure?16:40
GridCubehe will make sure that16:41
elfymake sure the details of any testing we are doing is mentioned in the thread 16:41
mikodoelfy, probably not, sorry ... My wife is going in for Knee Replacement in a week. I will be too busy. but thanks.16:41
elfyoh - hope that goes well mikodo 16:42
pleia2best wishes, mikodo 16:42
Unit193I had several lines in the meeting too!  Much more than 'team'.16:44
elfycya all later 16:45
pleia2later elfy 16:45
pleia2Unit193: I'd track down bluesabre later and get him to add his details to the etherpad, then send it off once you have yours added16:46
* pleia2 added a little intro text16:46
elfywhat is the etherpad link - assuming it's the mir one? 16:46
elfythen I'm really away ... 16:46
pleia2please, others with results can add too :)16:46
Unit193Bleh, email...16:47
elfypleia2: give me a day or two to do that please - losing b/band tomorrow and I'll not be able to start till saturday - but will do all 3 machines16:47
pleia2elfy: no problem16:48
pleia2we might get the discussion started now though so they can get rolling on our bugs16:49
elfypleia2: I've added the ether pad link to a thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2160366&p=12727306&viewfull=1#post1272730616:50
pleia2er, this is actually specifically for the email we're sending to jono16:51
pleia2I'll note that in the etherpad16:51
elfyso we don't want more results?16:51
pleia2we do, just don't want it to become a be-all dumping ground for everything16:51
elfyok - maybe next meeting we can look at that then 16:52
elfyand being admin I'd never admin abuse sticking threads on a forum anywhere16:53
skellatpleia2: Chipped in on etherpad17:01
Unit193bluesabre: You're not on are you?17:45
mikodoSo, make the decision on Aug 22/13 for Xubuntu 13.04, to go with Xorg or Xmir (with X11 driver fall-back support). Either way to go with XMir in 14.04 LTS. I think if possible, 5 year support is warranted, (as, I understand it, after 14.04 plans are for Ubuntu to drop XMir and upstream Xfce has no plans to leave Xorg). So what for Xubuntu 14.10? I guess that is the 64 dollar question.18:33
mikodoXubuntu 13.10 decision on Aug 22/13 rather ...18:36
pleia2can't really say anything even about 14.04 until we know if it works18:40
ochosilet's not spread the same kind of panic like a year ago about wayland initially18:41
* pleia2 nods18:41
ochosi(even if things arrive quicker in ubuntu)18:41
ochosianyway, we depend on xfce, so it's not in *our* hands really18:41
ochosii mean the possible 14.10 conundrum18:42
ochosi(and anyway, i assume that xfce would rather go with wayland than with mir, if i had to guess personally)18:42
Unit193Unity plans to move to Mir in 14.10 fully, I don't see them dropping XMir as there are still many "old" applications that won't work in Mir.18:44
ochosiyeah, that's also true18:44
pleia2I don't think they can ever drop XMir18:45
ochosiwell maybe in the mobile space18:45
pleia2yeah, since that's all new apps18:45
ochosiand since it's a much more locked-in system18:46
Unit193And since XMir uses Xorg (indeed, is the X in XMir), I don't exactly see how they can "drop" xorg.18:47
=== genii_ is now known as genii
=== lderan_ is now known as lderan
knomemikodo, xubuntu LTS support period is only 3 years though19:56
=== TheDrums_ is now known as TheDrums
micahg-workUnit193, X talking to hardware directly won't be supported20:39
micahg-workmost likely20:39
Unit193Silly. :P20:39
micahg-workUnit193, supported == Canonical looking at bugs, not that it won't work20:43
Unit193Of course.20:43
skellatUnit193: Be careful of the possibility of upstream Ubuntu doing something akin to Apple's System 9 to OSX jump where one era was left for another in terms of things actually working20:45
skellats/System 9/MacOS 9.0.4/20:46
Unit193pleia2: Heh, now it looks like I did all the work. :P21:01
Unit193And nice!21:01
lderanwill have to get some of those stickers at somepoint :P21:16
knomepleia2, not sure if i like blue on white or white on black21:39
Unit193It gives options, I didn't think the black background was bad.21:40
knomewould be better if it was 80% black rather than 100%21:41
knomeor 90%21:41
knomealso white on blue logotype + logo is weird21:42
pleia2I like them21:45
pleia2but we can only include your favorites in the bog post about them21:47
pleia2hehe, bog21:47
pleia2bogs and swamps21:47
knomei was thinking we could ask to remove those options:P21:49
pleia2not so much, I assume they've printed them and put the collections together21:53
pleia2I think they're fine21:53
knomethey're not awful, but a bit suboptimal21:53
Unit193If people don't like them, they wont' get them.  It's another option.21:54
knomewill they send some of us for free?21:54
pleia2knome: yep21:54
pleia2they'll send an initial batch to us, and then more based on sales21:54
pleia2(instead of straight $$ sharing)21:54
knomehave you checked that's fine with canonical?21:55
pleia2I'm not worried about it21:55
pleia2it's some stickers here and there, all used in promotion, not for personal/company gain21:55
Unit193We going to take part?  Going to talk in a meeting and figure out the medium again, along with recording?21:55
skellatknome: This needs action on your part to dispose of.  If I wanted to nitpick, it needs fixing but otherwise I'm cool with the merge.  I can talk to Jack Fromm about how to add himself to the changelog perhaps.22:29
skellatknome: https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail/xubuntu-docs/chapters_2-3_edits/+merge/17312022:29
skellatpleia2: Xubuntu at vUDS-1308 -- Us explaining the outcome of the go/no-go meeting the week before...whatever that outcome may be22:35
* skellat gets ready to head off to the arts board meeting22:37
lderansounds fun :)22:42
knomehead off?22:45
Unit193knome: Actually, your link is off.  If you look at it it still has "raring" in the link, you should be linking to http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/xubuntu-team.html22:57
Unit193https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1310-mir-xmir indicates that xrandr support is in TODO, and intel SNA support isn't due until way late.23:01
knomethat's not perfect, since it shows non-xubuntu related tasks as well23:01
knomethe point is the correct page doesn't exist.23:02
Unit193Though I don't see why it has non-Xubuntu..23:03
knomebecause it gets all people in xubuntu-team and lists all their work items23:03
knomenot work items that are assigned under the xubuntu blueprints23:03
knomei've updated the page for now with the xubuntu-team group page though.23:04
knomeUnit193, does that ^ make sense?23:05
Unit193Dowh.  Well, it at least lists them.  Yes, it makes sense, but at the same time it doesn't. ;)23:07
Unit193In the one, you did contact Nick so technically that can be inprogress or done.23:08
Unit193(I'm looking to see what we've got to do yet, of course.)23:09
knomea lot.23:11
Unit193https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-s-development CTRL+ALT+T was added, saw the commit.  Good to set as "DONE"?23:13
knomewhile you're at it, you can mark the "ask xfce" inprogress23:13
Unit193And elfy sent the call for testcase writers as well.23:14
Unit193Done.  Did ochos decide about pavucontrol and the GTK3 panel?23:15
Unit193Be back in a while.23:15
knomemmh, no23:16
NoskcajShould i add myself to the qa spec for testcase writing, i've had to approve/edit all of them?23:16
knomeNoskcaj, the bugs are tracked one by one, so no need to add another work item23:17
shawnbhey all I'm trying to join the Xubuntu community for documentation, I've been emailing the mailing list regarding this23:39
Noskcaj10hello shawnb 23:52
knomehey shawnb :)23:52
knome<- pasi23:52
Noskcaj10<- Jackson23:52
knomeskellat, did my explanation make any sense?23:52
shawnboh ok; I've seen the alias knome on a few things on the Ubuntu wikis, got it now; normally I use my psuedonym but I just did my name for the community irc23:53
knomeyup, you'll get to know our nicks quite quickly23:53
shawnbwell I am very interested in helping the Xubuntu community; so that's my main goal23:54
knomewelcome :)23:55
shawnbthank you =D23:55
knomeso, our docs...23:57
knomethey live at https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs23:57
shawnbok, and they use docbook xml23:58
knomewould you be more interested in extending or working with the 12.04 docs review?23:58
knomeand are you already familiar with docbook?23:58
knomeand/or bzr?23:58
knome(you've probably told this already but my brain refuses to keep too much information)23:59
Noskcaj10Learn bzr as soon as possible, it's confusing to start with, but it works23:59
shawnbI would be interested in that; I'm not familiar with docbook or bzr, but can learn quick23:59
knomeok, so have you any experience with anything xml, or possibly html?23:59
shawnbit's all good; yeah bzr I've attempted to use in the past but didn't try it that much23:59
knome(it's ok if not!)23:59

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