[07:17] <forestpiskie> pleia2: glad to hear it :p
[08:34] <ochosi> hi everyone (and knome), i don't think i'll be able to make the meeting today
[08:34] <ochosi> kinda a bad time for me
[08:34] <ochosi> (still possible that i do, just wanted to let you guys know in advance)
[08:45] <elfy> thanks 
[09:46] <bluesabre> For the meeting, I'm going to try to connect with my phone or something.  The owners of my company are going to be in today, so no laptop in the office
[09:55] <knome> lol
[10:16] <lderan> cursed owners :P
[10:33] <knome> heh.
[11:47] <knome> bbl
[14:51] <elfy> hi ToZ 
[14:52] <ToZ> Hi elfy
[14:56]  * pleia2 yawns
[14:56] <pleia2> morning
[14:56] <elfy> morning pleia2 
[14:56] <knome> hello!
[14:56] <knome> 4 minutes
[14:57] <bluesabre_work> morning folks :)
[14:57] <elfy> hi bluesabre_work 
[14:57] <skellat> \o
[14:57] <skellat> o/
[14:57] <skellat> \o/
[14:57] <knome> hey both of skellat's arms
[14:58] <skellat> Getting warmed up
[14:58] <knome> yup
[14:58] <GridCube> i dont know how longer my modem will stay connected so ill INFO now
[14:58]  * knome just put the coffee maker on
[14:58] <elfy> hi jono :)
[14:58] <knome> hey jono!
[14:58]  * skellat checks to see his decaf tea mug to see if it is optimally filled
[14:58] <jono> hey knome :-)
[15:00] <elfy> skellat: they make decaf tea - I am appalled :|
[15:00] <skellat> elfy: I can't have caffeine
[15:00] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[15:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jul 11 15:00:20 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:00] <knome> #chair elfy pleia2 
[15:00] <meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome pleia2
[15:00] <elfy> micahg-work: ping
[15:00] <jono> hey everyone :-)
[15:00] <lderan> hello :)
[15:00] <skellat> Good morning jono
[15:00] <pleia2> o/
[15:00] <knome> since we have jono as a guest here today, and he has a tight schedule i'm sure, let's go ahead with the mir discussion right away
[15:01] <knome> #topic Mir, XMir, X, and stuff (with Jono Bacon) 
[15:01] <bluesabre_work> sounds good to me
[15:01] <jono> thanks knome :-)
[15:01] <jono> so I have been reaching out to each of the flavors to discuss Mir
[15:01] <jono> and to discuss their plans for 13.10 and 14.04
[15:02] <jono> much of the discussions so far has been the flavors asking technical questions about Mir and what is involved in integrating it
[15:03] <jono> so I just wanted to reach out to you folks to see what Xubuntu's perspective is, and if there is any support and guidance I can help with, or the Mir team can help with
[15:03] <elfy> jono: these discussions documented anywhere ?
[15:03] <jono> elfy, no, they have been on phone calls
[15:03] <knome> i suppose the first question has to be: what options do we have and which of those are more or less "canonical-supported"
[15:04] <jono> knome, good question
[15:04] <jono> so these are the options I think:
[15:04] <jono> for 13.10:
[15:04] <jono>  * XMir + Mir - this will been you can run XFCE without any changes - it will run just like normal on the XMir compatibility layer
[15:05] <jono> XMir is currently seeing a wealth of performance improvements and will match the speed of X in 13.10
[15:05] <jono> XMir + Mir will be fully supported by Canonical and will be our primary display server stack
[15:06] <jono> also, XMir is a very thin layer so it should not introduce any bugs into Xubuntu, and if you do see a bug, it will be so obvious it is XMir
[15:06] <jono>  * Use the regular X stack - Canonical will not be maintaining a regular X stack, the X we will maintain will be XMir + Mir
[15:06] <jono> for 14.04:
[15:06] <jono>  * XMir + Mir - again, you can ship XFCE just like normal using our X compatibility layer
[15:07] <micahg-work> jono, I thought for 13.10 Canonical would maintain the X stack as a fallback for those drivers that aren't supported by XMir
[15:07] <jono>  * Use the regular X stack - again, Canonical will not be supporting X in 14.04, and I suspect this will degrade as the five year support period progresses
[15:08] <jono>  * XFCE using Mir - another option, and one which we would like to encourage upstreams with, is to build a Mir backend for the desktop
[15:09] <pleia2> our upstream is a smaller team than we are, I think getting Xfce to write for Mir is highly unlikely
[15:09] <jono> micahg-work, yes, so if a driver cannot work with Mir (at the moment, proprietary drivers) it will fallback to X
[15:09] <knome> +1 for micahg-work's and pleia2's comments
[15:09] <GridCube> highly
[15:09] <micahg-work> jono, as we're not even sure if we're shipping Xfce 4.12  as it's not released, having Mir as a backend for Xfce in the 14.04 timeframe is very unlikely
[15:09] <pleia2> (they don't even have Waylan plans right now)
[15:09] <jono> micahg-work, so we will maintain the fallback
[15:09] <pleia2> Wayland
[15:09] <jono> pleia2, I can understand that concern
[15:09] <pleia2> I also have concern that we're halfway through the cycle and not only is xmir not in the repos, but when Unit193, skellat and I tested it, only skellat was actually able to get it to run
[15:10] <bluesabre_work> I also tested it with no luck
[15:10] <skellat> When I had that up the experience was clearly sub-optimal
[15:10] <jono> pleia2, XMir should land in the next two weeks, and you can test XFCE with Xmir today using the PPA in the interim
[15:10] <skellat> We have users, not test subjects
[15:10] <knome> jono, so should we interpret that as you will or will not maintain X in 13.03?
[15:10] <pleia2> jono: we tried to use the PPA, it fails
[15:11] <Unit193> In theory you can test it, the one from the PPA just crashed at startup, on all 3 computers I tried.
[15:11] <jono> knome, to be clearer, our maintained X stack will be XMir + Mir, not desktops using X directly
[15:11] <pleia2> yeah, all mine fail back to xorg
[15:11] <jono> pleia2, when did you try it?
[15:11] <pleia2> jono: last night
[15:11] <jono> pleia2, ahhh, I thought that was fixed
[15:11] <jono> there was an issue in the last few days
[15:11] <skellat> I got it to boot last night on a System76 Starling netbook but the UI experience was suboptimal with two cursors barely tracking each other correctly
[15:11] <micahg-work> jono, why for 13.10 is the X stack support being dropped since it's still the fallback?
[15:11] <jono> pleia2, I will ensure the Mir team look into that
[15:12] <jono> skellat, the two cursor thing is temporary - the second cursor just shows you are in Mir
[15:12] <jono> skellat, that will be removed soon and a watermark used
[15:12] <skellat> jono: They shouldn't be **both** moving like a bad VirtualBox session though
[15:12] <jono> skellat, it is *temporary* :-)
[15:12] <jono> skellat, it is a poor man's watermark :-)
[15:12] <bluesabre_work> haha
[15:13] <jono> micahg-work, X is not dropped, it will be just maintained to support XMir
[15:13] <knome> jono, is there a mailing list or other output where the mir-related news are updated (and mir-devel isn't what i'm looking for, that's too high traffic)
[15:13] <jono> micahg-work, I think a Mir engineer can provide a better response on this question on the details, I will note that down
[15:13] <jono> knome, you raise a great question
[15:14] <micahg-work> jono, right, I get the X stack through XMir is supported, I'm just not sure why straight X support would be dropped for 13.10 being that it's the fallback (I understand for 14.04)
[15:14] <jono> knome, so in terms of a list, we don't have anything for just updates, but I have been thinking about providing weekly flavor updates of Mir progress, would that be useful?
[15:14] <jono> micahg-work, I will check with the Mir team with what the difference is
[15:14] <knome> jono, that sounds fair. if it's doable, just subscribe our developer mailing list for that mailing.
[15:14] <jono> knome, will do, thanks for the note
[15:14] <jono> we do have the weekly video update, but I understand that that is not the same
[15:15] <GridCube> nope 
[15:15] <jono> so it sounds like upstream are currently focusing on X, is that right?
[15:15] <Unit193> From what I've seen, Mir/XMir isn't even planning on getting virtual support until August, that's pretty close to release date (And FF?)...
[15:15] <pleia2> unfortunately we're all pretty busy, it's impossible for most of us to take an hour out of our week to watch a video
[15:16] <jono> Unit193, virtual support?
[15:16] <GridCube> xfce upstream yes
[15:16] <knome> jono, they have pretty much only one active contributor, so they aren't really "focusing" on any display server...
[15:16] <Unit193> jono: vmware, virtualbox.
[15:16] <pleia2> scanning IRC logs and similar is much faster and easier
[15:16] <jono> knome, gotcha
[15:16] <knome> pleia2, or a good old email
[15:16] <pleia2> or at least having a summary emailed somewhere so we know if portions of the video are worth our time
[15:16] <skellat> A late drop toward Feature Freeze has us worried that there would be a need to scramble in case we find that we feel XMir is not in a condition we feel comfortable shipping to users.
[15:16] <pleia2> skellat: +1
[15:16] <jono> knome, so in terms of Xubuntu, upstream can continue to ship an X display server in 14.04
[15:16] <skellat> We want our users to have a finished product instead of a work in progress.
[15:16] <jono> with XMir
[15:17] <jono> Unit193, I haven't tested it in a VM, I have heard mixed reports of whether it works
[15:17] <jono> Unit193, but I think you face that issue with Wayland too
[15:17] <Unit193> It doesn't in vbox.
[15:17] <Unit193> I don't with X.
[15:17] <knome> i've heard it simply "does not work" with virtualbox.
[15:17] <pleia2> jono: understand, wayland is not even on the horizon for us
[15:17] <skellat> I had a race condition with VirtualBox last night testing our test disc that locked up my machine totally
[15:17] <pleia2> it's not on Xfce's roadmap at all
[15:17] <jono> pleia2, I think an email summary might be easiest - we take notes for the video, I could send those
[15:17] <jono> pleia2, right
[15:18] <pleia2> so we're talking about sticking with xorg or using xmir, no mir or wayland in the discussion :)
[15:18] <jono> ok, so it sounds like the primary focus here for you folks is being able to ship the current codebase, and test it with XMir
[15:18] <pleia2> yeah, since most of our tests fail this is a very concerning situation
[15:18] <mrpouit> how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?
[15:18] <mrpouit> and xi?
[15:18] <jono> whoever tested the PPA and it failed, could you email a summary of the problem?
[15:19] <knome> Unit193, can you coordinate a... coordinated reply? :)
[15:19] <jono> I recommend we kick off an email discussion thread about getting you folks up and running
[15:19] <pleia2> my errors were the same as Unit193's
[15:19] <jono> so it was pleia2 and Unit193 who tested it?
[15:19] <pleia2> and bluesabre_work 
[15:19] <knome> and skellat and bluesabre_work 
[15:19] <skellat> jono: And me
[15:19] <bluesabre_work> mine as well
[15:19] <elfy> I can look at trying it as well on one of the lappies
[15:19] <pleia2> it worked for skellat though :)
[15:19] <Unit193> pleia2: I had a couple different ones.
[15:19] <lderan> aye same
[15:19] <elfy> so it won't be virtual 
[15:19] <knome> i can probably chime in with some hardware at some point
[15:19] <knome> (if badly needed)
[15:20] <jono> ok, pleia2, would you mind starting an email thread with everyone involved and copying me in, and summarize the issues, I will then copy a Mir engineer in
[15:20] <skellat> pleia2: It bootstrapped but wasn't very functional.  Not sure if that counts as worked.
[15:20] <jono> this is also pretty temporary, it should land in the archive in the next few weeks, but at least in the interim you can do some testing
[15:20] <knome> pleia2, please delegate to Unit193 and make sure he CC's xubuntu-devel ;)
[15:20] <jono> skellat, define functional?
[15:20] <holstein> pleia2: if you can easily, add me. i will test with a machine i am wiping this week
[15:21] <pleia2> #action Unit193 to collect details about Mir failures and email to -devel, jono and testers
[15:21] <meetingology> ACTION: Unit193 to collect details about Mir failures and email to -devel, jono and testers
[15:21] <skellat> jono: Being able to boot without the kernel apparently going into a fault condition and nm-applet failing
[15:21] <skellat> I couldn't report flaws as it wouldn't connect to a network
[15:21] <jono> skellat, that is outside of XMir
[15:21] <slickymaster> pleia2, you can also include me if you want. I can test it, also
[15:21] <jono> skellat, that sounds like another issue
[15:21] <pleia2> slickymaster: great! (and welcome :))
[15:21] <micahg-work> well, the sooner it lands, the sooner we can evaluate, I think we'd like to take a decision about a week before feature freeze whether or not to go with XMir for 13.10
[15:21] <jono> today XFCE should work as expected with XMir, apart from the annoying extra cursor
[15:21] <skellat> jono: We'll park that then for later review
[15:22] <pleia2> micahg-work: +1
[15:22] <jono> multi-monitor is also being worked on and will not expose any regressions in Mir
[15:22] <knome> i definitely +1 micahg-work
[15:22]  * elfy does as well
[15:22] <micahg-work> jono, can you speak to mr_pouit's questions?  they revolve around some base functionality
[15:22] <skellat> +1 micahg-work
[15:22] <jono> micahg-work, agreed, rest assured the Mir team are peddling as fast as they can :-)
[15:22] <knome> jono, d'oh, don't promise us that since it will have bugs (not to say i don't believe you don't fix them ;))
[15:22] <jono> micahg-work, which questions?
 how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?
 and xi?
[15:22] <pleia2> 08:18:28 < mrpouit> how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?
 how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?
 and xi?
[15:22] <pleia2> 08:18:45 < mrpouit> and xi?
[15:22] <pleia2> haha
[15:23] <elfy> lol
[15:23] <knome> flood alert!
[15:23] <jono> knome, I am sure there will be some bugs, but we will get 'em fixed :-)
[15:23] <knome> there are three trolls in the channel..
[15:23] <jono> mrpouit, are you referring specifically to multi-monitor?
[15:23] <mrpouit> jono, yes
[15:23] <jono> mrpouit, so the goal for 13.10 is zero regressions
[15:23] <mrpouit> ffrom what I could find (basically, nothing, xmir isn't documented at all), there's no plan
[15:23] <jono> some reading that will help:
[15:23] <jono>  * blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1310-mir-multimonitor
[15:24] <jono>  * thread: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/mir-devel/2013-June/000235.html
[15:24] <jono> mrpouit, if you have any further questions, mir-devel will be the best place to ask them, the engineers live there
[15:24] <knome> so what's the situation with (X)Mir documentation in general?
[15:25] <jono> knome, what kind of docs do you mean?
[15:25] <jono> integrating it?
[15:25] <knome> any documentation.
[15:26] <mrpouit> I think he means: "written documentation", without needing to listen to 1-hour long videos
[15:26] <knome> ^ that
[15:26] <jono> knome, docs currently live at http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/
[15:26] <jono> the docs are improving each week too
[15:26] <knome> mrpouit, do you have insight if that's even near what we'd need?
[15:26] <jono> if you have any further questions about integration Mir, the Mir team can help answer them
[15:27] <jono> I have asked dholbach to merge new docs into the core Mir docs
[15:27] <knome> jono, i would say one of the things that really should start working is xmir with virtualbox
[15:27] <jono> knome, I will note down to see where that sits right now
[15:27] <mrpouit> knome, yeah, planning for example. Also, what about ewmh, xrandr, xi? Will the support be identical to Xorg?
[15:27] <jono> I am not sure how far along that is
[15:27] <jono> mrpouit, yes
[15:27] <jono> everything should be the same
[15:28] <jono> mrpouit, but again, if you have specific questions, mir-devel is the best place to ask
[15:28] <Unit193> "Should be", and "are" aren't always the same. ;)
[15:28] <knome> since we have an already small testing team and many of the tests are run with virtualbox... you can see where you leave us if xmir isn't working with it
[15:28] <mrpouit> jono, is it the same kind of promise as "gtk2 indicators will be maintained during all the 12.04 lifetime", and they got dropped for 12.10? :)
[15:28] <jono> Unit193, which is why I am recommending mrpouit posts to the list ;-)
[15:28] <jono> knome, can you elaborate on the tests? automated tests?
[15:29] <knome> jono, manual tests
[15:29] <jono> mrpouit, I don't know about indicator support
[15:29] <jono> knome, ahhh gotcha, well I will see if it runs in a VM, I have heard mixed reports tbh
[15:29] <bluesabre_work> jono, what are the additional memory requirements of using XMir as opposed to just X?
[15:29] <knome> jono, i suppose he's asking that you keep what you promise - that wasn't the case with the gtk2 indicators
[15:29] <pleia2> none of us have gotten it to work in virtualbox either
[15:30] <knome> jono, as i said, i've heard that it simply doesn't work with virtualbox.
[15:30] <mrpouit> jono: basically, you're asking us to trust you on that, because right now to be able to take an informed decision we have to wait for the bits to land, and they land very very late, when it's too late to decide...
[15:30] <jono> knome, XMir will definitely be supported as we need it to ship Unity :-)
[15:30] <jono> mrpouit, I appreciate that, but the Mir team can only work so fast
[15:30] <skellat> mrpouit: What date would you call as the "point of no return" where we need to make decisions?
[15:30] <jono> which is why I am recommending you test with the PPA - the issues with the PPA recently were a blip
[15:31] <pleia2> we've all been testing with the ppa
[15:31] <Unit193> And it's crashed over and over.
[15:31] <jono> pleia2, if there are issues with the PPA I would encourage you to report them to mir-devel so the devs can get them fixed
[15:31] <jono> they are very responsive
[15:31] <knome> jono, it doesn't work with hardware or virtualbox. if you can't promise it won't work for 13.10, don't
[15:32] <jono> knome, can't promise what will work?
[15:32] <knome> jono, (x)mir for xubuntu
[15:32] <mrpouit> skellat, I'm not sure, this is probably a question for the testers too, but end of july would have been the limit (after that people go to vacation/will be less available). Maybe we can wait until feature freeze, but meh :P
[15:32] <jono> knome, I can promise XMir will work in the archive
[15:32] <jono> we have committed to that
[15:32] <jono> again, we need it to ship Ubuntu itself
[15:33] <elfy> committed to it working with Ubuntu or everything? 
[15:33] <knome> elfy, +1
[15:33] <lderan> committed to it being in a usable state for everything as well?
[15:33] <jono> elfy, we are committed to XMir being the X stack that all flavors can use for their desktops too
[15:34] <mrpouit> jono, "we're rushing it into 13.10 so 14.04 can be rock-solid" (basically what Olli Ries wrote) isn't very reassuring
[15:34] <jono> if we make XMir work for Ubuntu, it will work for flavors
[15:34] <elfy> mrpouit: +1
[15:34] <micahg-work> I'm not worried about XMir being usable for Ubuntu by release, I'm worried about it being usable enough that we can make an informed decision in time
[15:34] <jono> mrpouit, it is what it is - it is shipping in 13.10
[15:34] <jono> this isnt rushing it, this is shipping it
[15:34] <knome> jono, that's not assuring for us
[15:34] <jono> knome, what isn't reassuring?
[15:34] <mrpouit> jono, "it is what it is" << are you really here to listen to our concerns?
[15:35] <knome> jono, "it will work for flavors", since flavors *aren't* the focus of (x)mir or canonical-paid developers
[15:35] <jono> mrpouit, I believe I am being responsive to your concerns, but my point is: XMir is landing in 13.10, nothing we discuss here is going to change that - my goal here is to provide as much support as possible to our flavors
[15:35] <knome> jono, and i understand that, but if you are going to make it work barely in time for ubuntu, why should we trust it's usable for us in 13.10? 
[15:35] <jono> knome, I think that is a fair point
[15:35] <skellat> jono: XMir isn't going to turn out like 100 scopes did then?
[15:36] <jono> if you folks don't feel you have the time to use XMir between when XMir lands and when you ship, that is a reasonable concern
[15:36] <knome> jono, that just doesn't make sense, even if mark put half of his money and dirty socks in the gamble.
[15:36] <jono> but there isn't much we can do about it as we can't land Mir any earlier as they are currently working on integrating it
[15:36] <jono> skellat, ?
[15:36] <jono> skellat, what do you mean?
[15:37] <jono> knome, I agree you folks need to make your own call about whether the timelines work for you
[15:37] <jono> I agree that it is right
[15:37] <knome> jono, that is exactly our concern; stuff landing too late so we don't really have time to make a decision and not even talking about testing and making it integrated for *us*
[15:37] <jono> but the Mir team are working long day and nights to get it in ASAP
[15:37] <elfy> we understand that jono 
[15:37] <elfy> but we're concerned about us at the moment 
[15:37] <skellat> jono: 100 scopes was a major commitment for R that had to be delayed to S because it missed deadlines and wasn't in a ship-worthy state in time
[15:38] <Unit193> #action Unit193 to rebuild the XMir ISO once sufficient changes land in the PPA.
[15:38] <meetingology> ACTION: Unit193 to rebuild the XMir ISO once sufficient changes land in the PPA.
[15:38] <lderan> im sure their work will come to fruition well with ubuntu
[15:38] <jono> skellat, yes, it was delayed because the quality wasnt there - we had received criticism about not shipping low quality code, so we were receptive to that
[15:38] <pleia2> just to be clear, Xubuntu has always tracked Ubuntu's base and I think we want to here too, we just aren't keen on using our users as guinea pigs on a major portion of the desktop for 13.10 "so it's solid for 14.04"
[15:38] <knome> jono, so will the it be the same story with mir?
[15:39] <pleia2> we want to give xmir a chance :) it's just quite scary at the moment
[15:39] <jono> if the release and QA team don't approve Mir, it won't go in
[15:39] <jono> pleia2, I can understand that
[15:39] <jono> so I think the conclusion here is the following:
[15:39] <jono>  * XMir is landing in the next few weeks
[15:39] <knome> to be fair, how much control does the release and QA teams really have in that if mark wants it in?
[15:40] <jono>  * the PPA is available for testing, if there are bugs, please report them to mir-devel so we can fix them
[15:40] <mrpouit> knome: (zero control, even the release team can not object)
[15:40] <jono>  * the timescales are short, so the Xubuntu team should make an assessment if XMir is going to work
[15:40] <Unit193> So, what was the outcome of contacting Kubuntu and Lubuntu anyway?
[15:40] <jono>  * the Mir team are here to provide help and guidance for Mir-related questions and issues
[15:40] <knome> mrpouit, exactly my point, but i want to hear that from mr. bacon
[15:41] <jono> knome, Mark doesn't override the release tean
[15:41] <jono> teamn
[15:41] <mrpouit> jono, he does
[15:41] <knome> yes he does.
[15:41] <mrpouit> I guess you're not subscribed to the -release bug reports
[15:41] <jono> that is a seperate discussion, I disagree, but lets not derail this
[15:41] <knome> jono, that is an important question.
[15:41] <skellat> mrpouit micahg-work: I guess we need to set a "point of no return" date for the ease of jono when we have to make a decision on XMir by whether we ship it or not
[15:41] <micahg-work> jono, it's a rarely used power, but it is used
[15:41] <elfy> jono: well it is part of the dicussion and an important part
[15:41] <pleia2> skellat: +1
[15:42] <knome> jono, we don't want to ship a half-broken mir in xubuntu 13.03.
[15:42] <micahg-work> skellat, I think a week before feature freeze is good
[15:42] <pleia2> knome: making up version numbers
[15:42] <knome> i am
[15:42] <micahg-work> that gives us 6 weeks before final freeze
[15:42] <pleia2> hehe
[15:42] <jono> ok, so Mark does use his sabdfl power occassionally, I agree, and he might use it for Mir
[15:42] <jono> but I don't see how that affects Xubuntu making a decision about XMir
[15:42] <pleia2> micahg-work: sounds good to me
[15:42] <knome> jono, so doesn't that effectively lead us to the fact that you really can't promise that mir works with 13.10 ?
[15:42] <knome> jono, or the mir team, or anybody
[15:43] <jono> knome, I am promising you based on the information I have
[15:43] <knome> jono, and also, nobody still stopping it from getting in
[15:43] <micahg-work> jono, it doesn't, I think they were commenting to whether or not MIR will land is up to release + QA
[15:43] <jono> I am not a fortune teller
[15:43] <jono> sure, it could completely blow up if the Mir team get hit by a bus
[15:43] <jono> :-)
[15:43] <jono> my point is that based on the planning and trajectory, the Mir team is on track to deliver what they promise
[15:43] <micahg-work> jono, anyways, I think we'd like to have XMir, if it's ready enough for us, otherwise, we'll reevaluate for 14.04
[15:43] <jono> I am not denying that they may fail, there may be other issues at play
[15:43] <knome> or if they simple can't deliver a stable product on time, which happens with tight schedules, even with the best engineers
[15:44] <jono> knome, right
[15:44] <skellat> micahg-work mrpouit: Feature Freeze hits on August 29th.  Do we want to call the "go/no-go" date as August 22nd then or what is your pleasure?
[15:44] <jono> knome, as I say, I am basing everything on their planning and current progress
[15:44] <jono> I am going to have to run in a second, folks
[15:44] <micahg-work> skellat, that's what I'm thinking meeting on Aug 22
[15:44] <jono> I am already really late for a call
[15:44] <jono> I appreciate the feedback
[15:45] <knome> jono, so basically, what you are saying is "i hope mir is ready for 13.10", not "i promise mir is ready for 13.10" ?
[15:45]  * skellat thanks jono for taking the time to join us
[15:45] <pleia2> thanks jono
[15:45] <micahg-work> jono, thanks
[15:45] <elfy> jono: indeed, thanks 
[15:45] <lderan> thank you jono :)
[15:45] <knome> jono, thanks, it's much appreciated (though i'd still like to get a yes/no answer to my last question)
[15:45] <jono> knome, to be clear: the Mir team are targetting 13.10, that is what the full team are working towards, my confidence in that is unimportant, you should assess it yourself
[15:45] <jono> no one cares what I think anyway
[15:46] <knome> jono, we do, that's why you were invited to this meeting.
[15:46] <jono> knome, I would recommend you reach out to the Mir team directly if you need further assurance
[15:46] <knome> okay
[15:46] <pleia2> #agree Call the "go/no-go" date for xmir as August 22nd
[15:46] <jono> knome, I appreciate that, but it seems like every point I have made has been treated with skepticism
[15:46] <jono> which is fine, which is why I am suggesting you look into it yourself
[15:46] <knome> jono, sure, but isn't that expected? :)
[15:47] <jono> my goal here was only to open the discussion
[15:47] <elfy> you did that ;)
[15:47] <jono> knome, tbh, not really
[15:47] <knome> jono, anyway, thanks for joining us and have a nice day!
[15:47] <jono> knome, but whatever :-)
[15:47] <micahg-work> I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.04
[15:47] <skellat> pleia2: Shall we have a blog post to announce that in the spirit of openness?
[15:47] <pleia2> skellat: I'm thinking dev mailing list post that we'll share
[15:47] <lderan> have a good day jono 
[15:47] <jono> thanks, all
[15:47] <knome> +1 for pleia2 
[15:48] <knome> our website is for communicating with users, and i don't think development related deadline dates fall into that category
[15:48] <pleia2> (our blog is more user-facing, most think Mir is just a space station that landed in the ocean :))
[15:48] <skellat> #info (11:47:17 AM) micahg-work: I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.04
[15:48] <skellat> knome pleia2: Understood
[15:48] <bluesabre_work> thanks jono, have fun!
[15:48] <xnox> knome: mir is ready enough for me, works fine on my desktop. intel graphics.
[15:48] <knome> xnox, with xfce?
[15:48] <pleia2> xnox: intel is the key
[15:49] <knome> right, that's probably a fair point
[15:49] <micahg-work> xnox, right, no binary drivers ATM 
[15:49] <knome> let's test it with non-intel
[15:49] <GridCube> or non high end computers 
[15:49] <xnox> knome: pleia2: there a lot of work done with binary driver providers, but it's a relationship canonical is managing and those binary blobs are not released yet.
[15:49] <lderan> i have some amd machine i can use, their a bit old to boot
[15:49] <pleia2> alright, let's get this meteing back on track
[15:49] <micahg-work> right, once we have a decision, we can blog about it
[15:49] <pleia2> we can discuss mir later
[15:50] <elfy> pleia2: agreed 
[15:50] <knome> xnox, so what you are basically saying that, as we know, "it's not working" :)
[15:50] <knome> agreed as well.
[15:50] <knome> should we discuss about the deadline date?
[15:50] <xnox> knome: what i am saying "it's actually being actively worked on"
[15:50] <knome> or is everybody fine with august 22?
[15:50] <xnox> to get the binary blobs written & working.
[15:50] <knome> xnox, yes, prefixed with "it's not working, but"
[15:50] <pleia2> knome: I think we're all good with that
[15:50] <knome> xnox, sorry, i'm not trying to be annoying. :)
[15:51] <elfy> +1 to date 
[15:51] <knome> xnox, i hear you, and i think it's great people are actually working on it and not just "planning" stuff
[15:51] <knome> ok, that's it for the mir discussion1
[15:51] <knome> ! too
[15:51] <knome> #topic Items carried on
[15:51] <knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting 
[15:51] <knome> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings#Xubuntu.2BAC8-Meetings.2BAC8-Archive.2BAC8-Minutes.2BAC8-2013-06-13.Action_items.2C_by_person
[15:51] <xnox> knome: the binary blobs do work with mir on nexus devices, so existing ones can be made to work with it. (case in point tegra platform of nexus7 has nvidia binary blobs)
[15:51] <knome> anything that's actually been done?
[15:51] <skellat> knome: I can report on the bugs team topic
[15:52] <xnox> knome: *some* binary drivers already work with mir ;-)
[15:52] <pleia2> boo, slow wiki
[15:52] <bluesabre_work> #info lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6 is in the saucy repos
[15:52] <knome> xnox, *some* people already understand we need to cut down our gasoline usage...
[15:52] <lderan> loaded fast for once, scary stuff
[15:52] <knome> xnox, sorry for the low blow... :P
[15:52] <lderan> ba'dum tish
[15:52] <knome> skellat, sure, go ahead
[15:52] <pleia2> saw the new login screen when trying to test xmir last night, very nice :)
[15:53] <knome> yes, that's an improvement
[15:53] <bluesabre_work> it will look even nicer when the updated artwork hits
[15:53] <pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2013-06-13
[15:53]  * pleia2 browses action items
[15:53] <skellat> knome: Actually, on second thought, I'll defer both to next meeting since I'm still pondering XMir at this point
[15:53] <knome> skellat, sure. :)
[15:53] <knome> pleia2, didn't the link i pasted work for you?
[15:53] <skellat> #action skellat to continue work on items from 2013-06-13 meeting
[15:53] <meetingology> ACTION: skellat to continue work on items from 2013-06-13 meeting
[15:53] <pleia2> knome: oh, I r teh blind
[15:54] <bluesabre_work> #info we do not have an interface for setting a user profile image
[15:54] <bluesabre_work> but I can throw together a simple lightweight one if desired
[15:54] <knome> bluesabre_work, for good, or... ?
[15:54] <Unit193> cp Pictures/myface.jpg .face  ?  :P
[15:54] <xnox> knome: I hope I understand what that meant. It's all funny and playful, yet each cycle we land millions of new lines of code and make all of that work. With massive amounts of porting work.
[15:54] <knome> bluesabre_work, if that's trivial enough to not keep you away from other things you are planning to deliver this cycle
[15:54] <GridCube> i say that that would be nice
[15:54] <bluesabre_work> Unit193: thats for advanced users ;)
[15:55] <xnox> knome: to be honest, I am always scared of each X/kernel/gcc/libc upgrades, cause I find things broken.
[15:55] <bluesabre_work> knome: I'm not worried about it tbh
[15:55] <xnox> knome: but at the same time we work hard on making it work.
[15:55] <knome> xnox, i understand your point. but for me, as a non-technical person, if it doesn't work, i don't care how close we are to "it works". it's a boolean ;)
[15:55] <xnox> knome: and Mir is no different. using and testing it is the only way to prove when it's ready & usable.
[15:55] <knome> bluesabre_work, in that case, yes, we would like you to do that
[15:56] <xnox> knome: nothing gets a magical label "stable" and everyone starts using it, instead typically "everyone is on $foo" thenst it's ready.
[15:56] <micahg-work> xnox, normal upstreams have a concept of "stable"
[15:57] <bluesabre_work> #action bluesabre to create a basic user-profile-image app
[15:57] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to create a basic user-profile-image app
[15:57] <knome> xnox, sure. again, i'm not trying to be annoying. i definitely understand your point and respect both the mir developers and your work :)
[15:57] <xnox> knome: =)))))
[15:57] <knome> anything else on the action items?
[15:57] <pleia2> mine was done, now GridCube is well on his way with the desktop image submission team
[15:58] <knome> (each person, can you #action any items again that's NOT done)
[15:58] <pleia2> #info completed completed submission guidelines for desktop image submissions
[15:58] <knome> #action knome sends email about adding other members to xubuntu-release 
[15:58] <meetingology> ACTION: knome sends email about adding other members to xubuntu-release
[15:58] <elfy> #action greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork
[15:58] <meetingology> ACTION: greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork
[15:58] <pleia2> too many words
[15:58] <skellat> #action (11:47:17 AM) micahg-work: I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.04
[15:58] <meetingology> ACTION: (11:47:17 AM) micahg-work: I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.04
[15:58] <skellat> #undo
[15:58] <xnox> knome: 13.10 will ship X server one will be able to boot, whether X or XMir or Mir is the _default_ is irrelevant politics. And that's the best non-technical promise one can have.
[15:58] <elfy> #action elfy greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork
[15:58] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork
[15:58] <micahg-work> #action micahg to ITP gtk-theme-config to Debian
[15:58] <meetingology> ACTION: micahg to ITP gtk-theme-config to Debian
[15:58] <knome> xnox, that's a good one.
[15:59] <elfy> #action elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us 
[15:59] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us
[15:59] <skellat> #action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
[15:59] <meetingology> ACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
[15:59] <bluesabre_work> xnox, knome: but what happens when a user installs xubuntu-desktop from an ubuntu-desktop installation?
[15:59] <knome> bluesabre_work, that's something we should've asked jono, but i doubt he would have had an answer
[15:59] <skellat> #action skellat to develop a proposal for consideration for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
[15:59] <meetingology> ACTION: skellat to develop a proposal for consideration for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
[15:59] <knome> (or anybody at this point tbh)
[15:59] <micahg-work> bluesabre_work, that's fine, it'll just work
[16:00] <knome> everybody happy with the action items?
[16:00] <skellat> Has anybody gotten an update since we last met about the status of Xfce 4.12?
[16:00] <micahg-work> the main issue will be if XMir supports the hardware we want to support for 13.10
[16:00] <GridCube> Havent heard any
[16:01] <xnox> bluesabre_work: a package xubuntu-desktop is installed =) that doesn't directly changes/installs X server or Mir. All images at the moment are build with X by default, thus one will still have X
[16:01] <knome> the status of xfce 4.12 is "we understand xubuntu's point of view, but we want to unbreak some more things and there is no estimate when that's done"
[16:01] <elfy> bluesabre_work: as far as the greeter is concerned - do we need to wait for the artwork? 
[16:01] <skellat> knome: Please make that an INFO item
[16:01] <xnox> bluesabre_work: the promise is that $flavour-desktop tasks are independs on X/XMir/Mir choice.
[16:01] <knome> #info knome discussed xfce 4.12 release plans with nick, and the status is "we understand xubuntu's point of view, but we want to unbreak some more things and there is no estimate when that's done"
[16:02] <bluesabre_work> elfy: the annoying thing is that any gtk3 menus in 13.10 right now will look bad (thanks to gtk 3.8)
[16:02] <knome> skellat, thanks for reminding...
[16:02] <bluesabre_work> fixed in the latest artwork stuff, yet to be uploaded from what I last heard
[16:02] <lderan> oh dear
[16:02] <micahg-work> bluesabre_work, is that a bug in our theme or gtk 3.8?
[16:02] <knome> are we fine with the action items now?
[16:02] <micahg-work> ah
[16:02] <elfy> bluesabre_work: so leave it for the moment? 
[16:02] <elfy> knome: I'm happy with mine 
[16:03] <knome> #topic Team updates (All contributors)
[16:03] <bluesabre_work> micahg-work, elfy: should be fine to test, just a theming change with gtk 3.8
[16:03] <knome> any updates not yet covered on the action items?
[16:03] <ochosi> bluesabre_work: wait, hasn't mrpouit uploaded a new version of shimmer-themes already?
[16:03] <elfy> bluesabre_work: k - I'll get on tiwht the testcase and then we can look at asking for people to test it 
[16:03] <bluesabre_work> ochosi: not sure, has he? :)
[16:03] <mrpouit> yea, I did
[16:03] <bluesabre_work> oh
[16:03] <mrpouit> unless it's outdated already?
[16:03] <bluesabre_work> well there ya go
[16:03] <bluesabre_work> ready to test :D
[16:03] <knome> #info mrpouit uploaded a new version of shimmer-themes to saucy
[16:04] <ochosi> mrpouit: no, it's not outdated. but did you use the git-releases or snapshots?
[16:04] <lderan> i've started to write autopilot tests for the settings window
[16:04] <mrpouit> ochosi, latest tags
[16:04] <skellat> #info skellat is running Xfce on Jessie on his BeagleBoard and comparing how such runs with Xfce in Xubuntu
[16:04] <knome> who's jessie?
[16:04] <knome> :P
[16:04] <ochosi> mrpouit: and not all themes were gtk3.8 compatible yet at that point, now Orion, Greybird, Numix and Bluebird should be
[16:04] <knome> lderan, #info please!
[16:05]  * knome fills the cup with more coffee
[16:05] <lderan> #info lderan has started to write autopilot tests starting with the settings window
[16:05] <lderan> like that?
[16:05] <elfy> #info elfy manual testcase call for help went out - plenty of response so far - we've got 18 left not claimed and I'd added 6 at the weekend
[16:06] <knome> lderan, yes, thanks :)
[16:06] <skellat> knome: Debian Testing
[16:06] <lderan> woo
[16:06] <skellat> #info skellat notes Jessie is Debian Testing
[16:07] <knome> ah, right
[16:07] <knome> :)
[16:07] <knome> makes more sense now...
[16:07] <knome> more updates?
[16:07] <bluesabre_work> mrpouit, micahg-work: now that I have started doing packaging, what would be the roadmap for me to become an official "xubuntu-developer"?
[16:08] <mrpouit> bluesabre, there are a few pending merges left (I have the list at home), you can take them if you want
[16:08] <knome> bluesabre_work, can you go on with that after the meeting?
[16:08] <bluesabre_work> knome: sure thing
[16:08] <bluesabre_work> mrpouit: works for me
[16:08] <knome> mrpouit, micahg-work: or do you think there's something that concerns the whole community?
[16:09] <elfy> #info elfy would really like people to talk to him about anything that they think needs testing planned for 
[16:09] <skellat> mrpouit micahg-work: I just ask if the apt-offline merge into the seed & the related bug could be disposed of eventually
[16:09] <knome> #action team to talk with elfy if anything needs testing
[16:09] <meetingology> ACTION: team to talk with elfy if anything needs testing
[16:09] <knome> #nick team
[16:09] <elfy> knome: that's better :p
[16:09] <micahg-work> skellat, yeah, that's easy enough to do
[16:10] <knome> #topic New and emerging items
[16:10] <knome> #subtopic Members for Xubuntu release team
[16:10] <knome> so,
[16:10] <knome> atm me and elfy are members of the release team able to push buttons
[16:10] <knome> i'd like one developer to join us
[16:10] <knome> micahg-work, mrpouit, bluesabre_work: volunteers?
[16:10] <mrpouit> skellat, yep, I guess they are lost in my mailbox somewhere ;>
[16:11] <micahg-work> knome, I'm not "around" for releases anymore, so it's hard for me
[16:11] <bluesabre_work> knome: sure, I can help
[16:12] <knome> mrpouit, you happy with bluesabre_work taking that spot?
[16:12] <bluesabre_work> give it to mrpouit if you don't want to wait on a learning curve :)
[16:12] <knome> we all need to learn, it's got tools that didn't exist before :P
[16:13] <pleia2> I think you can handle it
[16:13] <knome> and it's anyway more on being around and understanding code
[16:13] <bluesabre_work> so, the fun stuff
[16:13] <knome> just for the sake of it...
[16:13] <bluesabre_work> :D
[16:13] <lderan> :D
[16:14] <knome> #vote Sean (bluesabre) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
[16:14] <meetingology> Please vote on: Sean (bluesabre) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
[16:14] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[16:14] <mrpouit> knome, yeah, I'm not sure to be around, but I can try too
[16:14] <knome> team can vote.
[16:14] <skellat> +1
[16:14] <meetingology> +1 received from skellat
[16:14] <knome> +1
[16:14] <meetingology> +1 received from knome
[16:14] <elfy> +1
[16:14] <meetingology> +1 received from elfy
[16:14] <lderan> well it will be a while before I can help with that i bet :P
[16:14] <knome> mrpouit, i'm fine with four members :>
[16:14] <pleia2> +1
[16:14] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[16:14] <GridCube> +1
[16:14] <meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
[16:14] <ochosi> +1
[16:14] <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
[16:14] <Unit193> +1
[16:14] <meetingology> +1 received from Unit193
[16:14] <knome> lderan, probably a bit, yes
[16:14] <bluesabre_work> +1
[16:14] <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre_work
[16:14] <bluesabre_work> why not ;)
[16:14] <knome> lderan, but you're on your way there!
[16:14] <elfy> :)
[16:14] <knome> bluesabre_work, hehe
[16:14] <knome> #endvote
[16:14] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Sean (bluesabre) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
[16:14] <meetingology> Votes for:8 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[16:14] <meetingology> Motion carried
[16:15] <knome> #vote Lionel (mrpouit) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
[16:15] <meetingology> Please vote on: Lionel (mrpouit) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
[16:15] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[16:15] <elfy> +1
[16:15] <meetingology> +1 received from elfy
[16:15] <knome> team can vote.
[16:15] <knome> +1
[16:15] <meetingology> +1 received from knome
[16:15] <bluesabre_work> +1
[16:15] <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre_work
[16:15] <GridCube> +1
[16:15] <meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
[16:15] <Unit193> +1
[16:15] <meetingology> +1 received from Unit193
[16:15] <skellat> +1
[16:15] <meetingology> +1 received from skellat
[16:16] <elfy> he didn't like that vote then :p
[16:16] <bluesabre_work> lol
[16:16] <pleia2> +1
[16:16] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[16:16] <knome> anybody want to vote against? :P
[16:16] <bluesabre_work> he didn't want to see the final results
[16:16] <knome> #endvote
[16:16] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Lionel (mrpouit) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
[16:16] <meetingology> Votes for:7 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[16:16] <meetingology> Motion carried
[16:16] <micahg-work> oh, hrm
[16:16] <knome> that's enough of us..
[16:16] <elfy> bluesabre_work: the other one is here still 
[16:17] <knome> micahg-work, you can throw an unofficial +1 :P
[16:17] <skellat> micahg-work: See: https://code.launchpad.net/~skellat/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.saucy-aptoffline-addition/+merge/165516 & https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/1183638
[16:17] <knome> anyway, let's go fast forward (we need to end the meeting today)
[16:17] <knome> #subtopic Proposal for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
[16:17] <knome> #info postponed to next meeting
[16:17] <knome> #subtopic Xubuntu desktop showcase group progress
[16:17] <GridCube> ok.
[16:19] <GridCube> #info  a group on dA http://xubuntu-showcase.deviantart.com/ still waiting for those who applied to join me to a walkthrough
[16:20] <skellat> #INFO GridCube: Work on the wallpaper showcase its being done, we created a new site: http://xubuntu-showcase.deviantart.com/ we still need all the people who volunteer to join me on a walkthrough of the managing of the site
[16:20] <knome> what's the status on the guidelines? :)
[16:20] <GridCube> Once i have enough people in the loop pleia2 will broadcast the news to all social site we own
[16:21] <GridCube> guidelines are ready
[16:21] <knome> pleia2? confirming that?
[16:21] <GridCube> you can read them in the group already
[16:21] <bluesabre_work> I swung by there the other day, looking good GridCube
[16:22] <lderan> aye that it is
[16:22] <GridCube> im sorry tht my internet isnt cooperating this week to get things done faster
[16:22] <pleia2> knome: yep
[16:22] <knome> ok, great
[16:22] <knome> #action pleia2 and GridCube prepare the social media broadcasting
[16:22] <meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 and GridCube prepare the social media broadcasting
[16:23] <knome> is that it for that subject?
[16:23] <GridCube> guess so
[16:23] <knome> ok, great
[16:23] <knome> #subtopic Changing the text on the settings menu 
[16:23] <GridCube> i do need the people to join me
[16:23] <elfy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-settings/+bug/1173767
[16:24] <elfy> is the bug for this topic
[16:24] <lderan> GridCube: I can help out :) i even remembered my devart password :P
[16:24] <knome> GridCube, since many of you aren't actively in IRC, i suppose it's better to cooperate that in the mailing list
[16:24] <knome> what does people think?
[16:24] <elfy> as long as it's in the -dev m/l I'm fine with that 
[16:24] <GridCube> yes. Will make a good mail then
[16:24] <knome> now that we integrated system settings in the settings manager, the description isn't accurate
[16:24] <knome> elfy, sure.
[16:25] <knome> GridCube, if you want feedback/improving round, post it to pad and ping people here
[16:25] <GridCube> ok
[16:25] <knome> GridCube, but no need to, can also post directly
[16:25] <knome> (whatever you wish)
[16:25] <GridCube> Will see how long it turns out to be. 
[16:26] <knome> so what about the settings manager description?
[16:26] <lderan> think it would be good to change the text, tho not sure to what
[16:26] <knome> the current description is "Customize your desktop"
[16:26] <lderan> also theres all the translations for it as well
[16:26] <knome> i think we'd need somebody familiar with the code to tell if it's a patch we want to carry with xubuntu
[16:26] <knome> that's my main issue
[16:26] <knome> apart from that i'm all +1 for the change
[16:27] <knome> elfy, can you work to confirm with mr_pouit (i suppose) if the patch is doable?
[16:27] <bluesabre_work> if we carry the patch for that string, we'll have to hunt down translators as well
[16:27] <elfy> knome: ok
[16:28] <elfy> #action elfy talk to mr_pouit re Settings Manager
[16:28] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy talk to mr_pouit re Settings Manager
[16:28] <knome> bluesabre_work, that's probably the least of our worries... it's just one string, and we can shout the world to help us
[16:28] <knome> great
[16:28] <knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
[16:28] <knome> any reasons we should have a meeting in one week?
[16:28] <slickymaster> I can translate to Portuguese, if needed
[16:28] <GridCube> in two weeks sound good?
[16:28] <elfy> slickymaster: ty
[16:28] <lderan> could it be a patch that I could do?
[16:28] <bluesabre_work> jono said xmir should be in the archive in 2 weeks, right?
[16:28] <knome> hmm, alpha 2 is in two weeks
[16:29] <knome> let's have a meeting next week
[16:29] <GridCube> Before that then?
[16:29] <lderan> okay
[16:29] <knome> a short one if nothing special turns up
[16:29] <elfy> #info elfy include lderan with Settings discsussion
[16:29] <bluesabre_work> sounds good to me
[16:29] <elfy> knome: I'll be missing but forestpiskie will be here 
[16:29] <knome> #info Next community meeting is on Thursday 18 July, 15UTC
[16:29] <elfy> if it's the same time ish
[16:29] <knome> #endmeeting
[16:29] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jul 11 16:29:49 2013 UTC.  
[16:29] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-07-11-15.00.moin.txt
[16:29] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-07-11-15.00.html
[16:29] <knome> thanks!
[16:29] <elfy> thanks knome 
[16:29] <knome> elfy, yup
[16:30] <lderan> ah good timing
[16:30] <elfy> and everyone else
[16:30] <lderan> bye all :)
[16:30] <bluesabre_work> now, we just gotta add that to the gcal :)
[16:30] <knome> gosh, i still talked more than jono
[16:30] <knome> :P
[16:30] <elfy> ha ha ha 
[16:30] <knome> pleia2, ^
[16:30]  * bluesabre_work is not surprised
[16:30] <knome> hah, thanks :P
[16:30] <bluesabre_work> :D
[16:30] <knome> anyway, i'm off now
[16:30] <elfy> cya later knome 
[16:30] <bluesabre_work> seeya knome
[16:30] <knome> will post the minutes online later today
[16:31] <bluesabre_work> I'm off too, now I can focus on doing work while I'm at work :)
[16:31] <pleia2> updated calendar
[16:31] <knome> (and please do send the mailing list mail if you need to contact the team before the next meeting)
[16:31]  * pleia2 back2work
[16:31] <knome> pleia2, ta
[16:31] <bluesabre_work> pleia2: +1
[16:31] <knome> bluesabre_work, lol, have fun
[16:31] <knome> -->
[16:32] <elfy> vasa1 mikodo - good to see you :)
[16:32] <elfy> as he left the channel ... 
[16:34] <elfy> wb mikodo 
[16:35] <mikodo> elfy wb?
[16:35] <pleia2> welcome back
[16:35] <mikodo> Thanks
[16:36] <mikodo> I wanted to see if the meeting would still be logged
[16:36] <elfy> mikodo: this is the place to ask questions if you've any about what's going on - but it is IRC 
[16:36] <pleia2> mikodo: yep! see http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-07-11-15.00.html
[16:36] <elfy> the meeting logs will be online shortly and as I said in your thread the ubuntu irc logs are there as well
[16:36] <mikodo> pleia2, Thanks
[16:37] <pleia2> how was I #3 talker
[16:37] <pleia2> I didn't say that much :P
[16:37]  * elfy was quiet this time 
[16:37] <mikodo> Does anyone want to summarize the time-lines for Xmir or not
[16:37] <mikodo> To use or not to use
[16:38] <pleia2> we'll decide on august 22nd
[16:38] <mikodo> OD
[16:38] <mikodo> OK
[16:38] <elfy> hello DanChapman 
[16:39] <pleia2> that should give us 3 weeks of testing with it in the repos, and is 1 week before feature freeze
[16:40] <elfy> mikodo: we're going to be trying to get some testing together - if you're interested I'mm ensure details of it are in your thread
[16:40] <mikodo> You'll ensure?
[16:41] <GridCube> he will make sure that
[16:41] <elfy> make sure the details of any testing we are doing is mentioned in the thread 
[16:41] <mikodo> elfy, probably not, sorry ... My wife is going in for Knee Replacement in a week. I will be too busy. but thanks.
[16:42] <elfy> oh - hope that goes well mikodo 
[16:42] <pleia2> best wishes, mikodo 
[16:43] <mikodo> Thx
[16:44] <Unit193> I had several lines in the meeting too!  Much more than 'team'.
[16:45] <elfy> cya all later 
[16:45] <pleia2> later elfy 
[16:46] <pleia2> Unit193: I'd track down bluesabre later and get him to add his details to the etherpad, then send it off once you have yours added
[16:46]  * pleia2 added a little intro text
[16:46] <elfy> what is the etherpad link - assuming it's the mir one? 
[16:46] <pleia2> http://etherpad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-mir
[16:46] <elfy> then I'm really away ... 
[16:46] <pleia2> please, others with results can add too :)
[16:47] <Unit193> Bleh, email...
[16:47] <elfy> pleia2: give me a day or two to do that please - losing b/band tomorrow and I'll not be able to start till saturday - but will do all 3 machines
[16:48] <pleia2> elfy: no problem
[16:49] <pleia2> we might get the discussion started now though so they can get rolling on our bugs
[16:50] <elfy> pleia2: I've added the ether pad link to a thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2160366&p=12727306&viewfull=1#post12727306
[16:51] <pleia2> er, this is actually specifically for the email we're sending to jono
[16:51] <pleia2> I'll note that in the etherpad
[16:51] <elfy> so we don't want more results?
[16:51] <pleia2> we do, just don't want it to become a be-all dumping ground for everything
[16:52] <elfy> ok - maybe next meeting we can look at that then 
[16:53] <elfy> and being admin I'd never admin abuse sticking threads on a forum anywhere
[16:53] <pleia2> :)
[17:01] <skellat> pleia2: Chipped in on etherpad
[17:45] <Unit193> bluesabre: You're not on are you?
[18:33] <mikodo> So, make the decision on Aug 22/13 for Xubuntu 13.04, to go with Xorg or Xmir (with X11 driver fall-back support). Either way to go with XMir in 14.04 LTS. I think if possible, 5 year support is warranted, (as, I understand it, after 14.04 plans are for Ubuntu to drop XMir and upstream Xfce has no plans to leave Xorg). So what for Xubuntu 14.10? I guess that is the 64 dollar question.
[18:36] <mikodo> Xubuntu 13.10 decision on Aug 22/13 rather ...
[18:40] <pleia2> hm
[18:40] <pleia2> can't really say anything even about 14.04 until we know if it works
[18:41] <ochosi> +1
[18:41] <ochosi> let's not spread the same kind of panic like a year ago about wayland initially
[18:41]  * pleia2 nods
[18:41] <ochosi> (even if things arrive quicker in ubuntu)
[18:41] <ochosi> anyway, we depend on xfce, so it's not in *our* hands really
[18:42] <ochosi> i mean the possible 14.10 conundrum
[18:42] <ochosi> (and anyway, i assume that xfce would rather go with wayland than with mir, if i had to guess personally)
[18:44] <Unit193> Unity plans to move to Mir in 14.10 fully, I don't see them dropping XMir as there are still many "old" applications that won't work in Mir.
[18:44] <ochosi> yeah, that's also true
[18:45] <pleia2> I don't think they can ever drop XMir
[18:45] <ochosi> well maybe in the mobile space
[18:45] <pleia2> yeah, since that's all new apps
[18:46] <ochosi> and since it's a much more locked-in system
[18:47] <Unit193> And since XMir uses Xorg (indeed, is the X in XMir), I don't exactly see how they can "drop" xorg.
[19:56] <knome> mikodo, xubuntu LTS support period is only 3 years though
[20:39] <micahg-work> Unit193, X talking to hardware directly won't be supported
[20:39] <micahg-work> most likely
[20:39] <Unit193> Silly. :P
[20:43] <micahg-work> Unit193, supported == Canonical looking at bugs, not that it won't work
[20:43] <Unit193> Of course.
[20:45] <skellat> Unit193: Be careful of the possibility of upstream Ubuntu doing something akin to Apple's System 9 to OSX jump where one era was left for another in terms of things actually working
[20:46] <skellat> s/System 9/MacOS 9.0.4/
[20:53] <pleia2> http://www.unixstickers.com/xubuntu
[20:53] <pleia2> :)
[21:01] <Unit193> pleia2: Heh, now it looks like I did all the work. :P
[21:01] <Unit193> And nice!
[21:16] <lderan> will have to get some of those stickers at somepoint :P
[21:39] <knome> pleia2, not sure if i like blue on white or white on black
[21:40] <Unit193> It gives options, I didn't think the black background was bad.
[21:41] <knome> would be better if it was 80% black rather than 100%
[21:41] <knome> or 90%
[21:42] <knome> also white on blue logotype + logo is weird
[21:45] <pleia2> I like them
[21:47] <knome> boo
[21:47] <pleia2> but we can only include your favorites in the bog post about them
[21:47] <pleia2> hehe, bog
[21:47] <pleia2> blog
[21:47] <pleia2> bogs and swamps
[21:49] <knome> i was thinking we could ask to remove those options:P
[21:53] <pleia2> not so much, I assume they've printed them and put the collections together
[21:53] <knome> awwh
[21:53] <pleia2> I think they're fine
[21:53] <knome> they're not awful, but a bit suboptimal
[21:54] <Unit193> If people don't like them, they wont' get them.  It's another option.
[21:54] <knome> will they send some of us for free?
[21:54] <pleia2> knome: yep
[21:54] <knome> awesome.
[21:54] <pleia2> they'll send an initial batch to us, and then more based on sales
[21:54] <pleia2> (instead of straight $$ sharing)
[21:55] <knome> ooh
[21:55] <knome> have you checked that's fine with canonical?
[21:55] <pleia2> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/07/11/ubuntu-developer-summit-27-29-august-2013/
[21:55] <pleia2> I'm not worried about it
[21:55] <pleia2> it's some stickers here and there, all used in promotion, not for personal/company gain
[21:55] <knome> mhm
[21:55] <Unit193> We going to take part?  Going to talk in a meeting and figure out the medium again, along with recording?
[21:55] <knome> yeah
[22:29] <skellat> knome: This needs action on your part to dispose of.  If I wanted to nitpick, it needs fixing but otherwise I'm cool with the merge.  I can talk to Jack Fromm about how to add himself to the changelog perhaps.
[22:29] <skellat> knome: https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail/xubuntu-docs/chapters_2-3_edits/+merge/173120
[22:35] <skellat> pleia2: Xubuntu at vUDS-1308 -- Us explaining the outcome of the go/no-go meeting the week before...whatever that outcome may be
[22:37]  * skellat gets ready to head off to the arts board meeting
[22:42] <lderan> sounds fun :)
[22:45] <knome> head off?
[22:45] <knome> ouch
[22:57] <Unit193> knome: Actually, your link is off.  If you look at it it still has "raring" in the link, you should be linking to http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/xubuntu-team.html
[23:01] <knome> hmpf.
[23:01] <Unit193> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1310-mir-xmir indicates that xrandr support is in TODO, and intel SNA support isn't due until way late.
[23:01] <knome> that's not perfect, since it shows non-xubuntu related tasks as well
[23:02] <knome> the point is the correct page doesn't exist.
[23:03] <Unit193> Though I don't see why it has non-Xubuntu..
[23:03] <knome> because it gets all people in xubuntu-team and lists all their work items
[23:03] <knome> not work items that are assigned under the xubuntu blueprints
[23:04] <knome> i've updated the page for now with the xubuntu-team group page though.
[23:05] <knome> Unit193, does that ^ make sense?
[23:07] <Unit193> Dowh.  Well, it at least lists them.  Yes, it makes sense, but at the same time it doesn't. ;)
[23:08] <Unit193> In the one, you did contact Nick so technically that can be inprogress or done.
[23:09] <Unit193> (I'm looking to see what we've got to do yet, of course.)
[23:11] <knome> a lot.
[23:13] <Unit193> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-s-development CTRL+ALT+T was added, saw the commit.  Good to set as "DONE"?
[23:13] <knome> sure.
[23:13] <knome> while you're at it, you can mark the "ask xfce" inprogress
[23:14] <Unit193> And elfy sent the call for testcase writers as well.
[23:14] <knome> yup!
[23:15] <Unit193> Done.  Did ochos decide about pavucontrol and the GTK3 panel?
[23:15] <Unit193> Be back in a while.
[23:16] <knome> mmh, no
[23:16] <Noskcaj> Should i add myself to the qa spec for testcase writing, i've had to approve/edit all of them?
[23:17] <knome> Noskcaj, the bugs are tracked one by one, so no need to add another work item
[23:17] <Noskcaj> ok
[23:39] <shawnb> hey all I'm trying to join the Xubuntu community for documentation, I've been emailing the mailing list regarding this
[23:52] <Noskcaj10> hello shawnb 
[23:52] <knome> hey shawnb :)
[23:52] <shawnb> hi
[23:52] <knome> <- pasi
[23:52] <Noskcaj10> <- Jackson
[23:52] <knome> skellat, did my explanation make any sense?
[23:53] <shawnb> oh ok; I've seen the alias knome on a few things on the Ubuntu wikis, got it now; normally I use my psuedonym but I just did my name for the community irc
[23:53] <knome> yup, you'll get to know our nicks quite quickly
[23:54] <shawnb> well I am very interested in helping the Xubuntu community; so that's my main goal
[23:55] <knome> goodie!
[23:55] <knome> welcome :)
[23:55] <shawnb> thank you =D
[23:57] <knome> so, our docs...
[23:57] <knome> they live at https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs
[23:58] <shawnb> ok, and they use docbook xml
[23:58] <knome> yup!
[23:58] <knome> would you be more interested in extending or working with the 12.04 docs review?
[23:58] <knome> and are you already familiar with docbook?
[23:58] <knome> and/or bzr?
[23:59] <knome> (you've probably told this already but my brain refuses to keep too much information)
[23:59] <Noskcaj10> Learn bzr as soon as possible, it's confusing to start with, but it works
[23:59] <shawnb> I would be interested in that; I'm not familiar with docbook or bzr, but can learn quick
[23:59] <knome> ok, so have you any experience with anything xml, or possibly html?
[23:59] <shawnb> it's all good; yeah bzr I've attempted to use in the past but didn't try it that much
[23:59] <knome> (it's ok if not!)