[00:00] <shawnb> yes, I have made my own XML markup for a few apps I made - was going to use it as the way to organize my music library in a music app I want to create
[00:00] <knome> docbook definitely is something you can get a grasp in just hours
[00:00] <shawnb> html - I play with jquery a lot as of lately
[00:00] <knome> great - then you basically know docbook apart from the tags... but that's fine, because we have examples in the documentation ready!
[00:00] <shawnb> awesome! =D
[00:01] <knome> would you like to dig in some of that now, or would some other time suit you better?
[00:01] <shawnb> another time would probably be better; I'm reading through the Xubuntu documentation and have had a couple of exams for work I took today
[00:01] <knome> sure :)
[00:02] <knome> when you have time for that, just join this channel again and shout for people to help you with things
[00:02] <knome> both me and pleia2 can give you a better look at the docs at least, and most of us are familiar enough with bzr to get you started with that
[00:05] <shawnb> that's good to know; I'm reading through the offline documentation  seeing how fluid it is - I've done call center where I've worked with the most basic of people and I'm wondering what area you want to target in the documentation areas
[00:06] <knome> as i said, we recently (for 12.10) did a complete rewrite
[00:06] <knome> and by complete i mean... we pretty much touched almost everything
[00:06] <knome> so what we have should be valid, but due to the same reason, it can definitely be lacking
[00:07] <shawnb> in the 13.04 I'm reading on chapter 3, it talks about the desktop have two panels top visible and bottom hidden when not in use. I personally can see a notation that states how to access the bottom panel just in case
[00:08] <shawnb> just in the top clip note
[00:08] <knome> i'm not sure i follow
[00:09] <knome> right; so you're proposing to add an information box?
[00:09] <shawnb> it is clarified how to access it in the heading Bottom Panel but under the main heading Desktop it just mentions it - I would personally
[00:10] <knome> sure
[00:10] <knome> improvements like that are most welcome
[00:11] <shawnb> symlink has no definition in the  information box on the page; it just says you can symlink your backgrounds to /usr/share/xfce4/backdrops/ - better information on how to do that would be more helpful
[00:11] <knome> (as long as we don't start saying all things twice...)
[00:11] <knome> yep, some of the things are definitely rough
[00:11] <knome> correct, but rough and lacking
[00:12] <knome> otoh we might consider if we want to talk about "symlinking" in our end-user docs anyway
[00:12] <shawnb> I'll be honest I"ve used Ubuntu and Xubuntu and variants since 4.10 came out, but I'm learning new things in this documentation as well
[00:12] <knome> it's endless - one learns new things every day
[00:13] <shawnb> yeah that's a bit more advanced; if a program were made to do it for you (I had one I made for that specific issue haha) users would be more inclined to use it
[00:13] <knome> yup
[00:13] <shawnb> or even a program to upload backgrounds to the Xubuntu system for access to all users
[00:13] <knome> so probably just -"or symlink" there
[00:13]  * Unit193 uses his name on IRC, mailing list, and LP.
[00:13] <knome> Unit193, you're cheating.
[00:14] <Unit193> Am I?
[00:14] <knome> yes you are sir.
[01:38] <bluesabre> stickers!
[01:39]  * knome sticks one in bluesabres nose
[01:39] <bluesabre> lol
[01:39] <bluesabre> took forever to go through all the backlog
[01:40] <knome> sure
[01:40] <bluesabre> Unit193: I am around now, but my crash was identical to the one that pleia2 had pasted yesterday
[01:43] <Unit193> bluesabre: Yeah, I was looking for what card you had at the time.
[01:50] <bluesabre> Unit193: NVIDIA Corporation G98M [Quadro NVS 160M] (rev a1)
[01:55] <Unit193> bluesabre: Coolio, already sent to the list, but could add it to the etherpad if it'll come in handy later.
[01:59] <bluesabre> added
[01:59] <bluesabre> thanks Unit193
[01:59] <Unit193> Heh, I was going to, but cool.
[02:00] <Unit193> Thanks.
[02:01] <ochosi> bluesabre: holy moly, gtk3.10 will deprecate stock items. one more thing to keep in mind when porting something...
[02:05] <ochosi> (in case anyone is interested in the not-too technical read: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KCVPoYQBqMbDP11tHPpjW6uaEHrvLUmcDPqKAppCY8o/pub )
[02:06] <skellat> knome: Sorry, just saw that 3 hours later.  The music festival board meeting that I was clerking tonight got interesting and I had to track down a band leader for us to talk to on speakerphone.  Your status.u.c explanation seems sensible to me.
[02:23] <bluesabre> ochosi: yep, that sucks
[02:23] <bluesabre> and that means the standard is moving towards text-only buttons (though they can be packed however one chooses)
[02:26] <Unit193> Well, Gnome wasn't using it, so who cares. :P
[04:19] <micahg> skellat: where was that link?
[07:30] <ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, i guess less icons to maintain for me ;)
[07:47] <elfy> hello mikodo 
[07:47] <mikodo> elfy, Have a good sleep?
[07:48] <elfy> I did thanks :)
[07:49] <mikodo> elfy, I am just going off to it myself. Thanks for the meeting tip again, I enjoyed it. It was a little hard to keep up, the re-read on the UF made it all clearer
[07:49] <elfy> irc can be if you're not used to it 
[07:50] <elfy> if you subscribe to the xub-dev m/l or even check the wiki you can see when there is a meeting and check later for the logs
[07:51] <mikodo> Kinda scares me where Xubuntu will be having to go to with Mir looming for 14.04. I get that talking about it here is not optimum.
[07:52] <elfy> we 'chat' in #xubuntu-offtopic - not logged there
[07:52] <elfy> you should pop by some time :)
[07:52] <mikodo> Oh, OK! Thx. an G'nite.
[10:15] <elfy> mr_pouit: hi - when you've got a few free minutes can you ping me please :)
[10:16] <mrpouit> elfy, ping
[10:16] <mrpouit> hello there
[14:46] <knome> LP merge 173120 done.
[15:06] <knome> meeting minutes from yesterday are up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[15:07] <ochosi> ah cool
[15:25] <jjfrv8> knome, thanks for the merge. Re skellat's point, should I be updating the changelog when I do these proposals?
[15:25] <skellat> jjfrv8: Running dch -a before you commit then merge will add you easily to the changelog
[15:26] <knome> jjfrv8, if you're comfortable with it, go ahead; if not, i'll make sure i do that
[15:26] <knome> (done that with my push)
[15:27] <jjfrv8> That's a "devscripts" app that I have to install and then run that command before I do my local commit?
[15:27] <knome> yup, running that before your commit would do it
[15:28] <jjfrv8> OK, I'll try that next time.
[15:28] <knome> thanks :)
[15:29] <jjfrv8> knome, will the 12.04 rewrite project have a formal kickoff.  There is no trunk for that yet, true?
[15:29] <knome> yes, we will have to send some kind of call for that, and probably create a new branch
[15:30] <jjfrv8> Alrighty
[15:30] <knome> jjfrv8, if you would like to get hands dirty with that already, i should talk with pleia2 today and get that done
[15:31] <jjfrv8> I'm working on the testcases right now but I just didn't want to miss out on the action with 12.04 :)
[15:31] <knome> sure
[15:32] <knome> if i'll get ahold of pleia2 today, i can go ahead with the 12.04 SRU stuff
[15:33] <knome> (note how awesome i am in highlighting pleia2 again and again so she can't say she missed my messages?)
[15:41] <bluesabre> pleia2 ^
[15:41] <knome> bluesabre, why are you ^ing pleia2?
[15:42] <bluesabre> to help make sure she doesn't miss your messages :D
[15:42] <knome> bluesabre, oh pleia2?
[15:42] <bluesabre> yeah, pleia2
[15:42] <knome> right, that's why you were ^ing pleia2 
[15:42] <rowboatnick> lol
[15:42] <bluesabre> yup, thats the reason I was ^ing pleia2
[15:43] <knome> bluesabre, good, i hope pleia2 doesn't miss that
[15:43] <bluesabre> I don't think pleia2 will
[15:43] <knome> yeah, pleia2 usually doesn't miss stuff like that
[15:44] <bluesabre> indeed, pleia2 is usually pretty reliable about getting messages left for her
[15:45] <knome> that might be one of the reasons her nick is pleia2, maybe the first version had worse reliability
[15:46] <bluesabre> lol
[16:02] <pleia2> you all suck :)
[16:03]  * elfy has a sad :(
[16:03] <pleia2> elfy: just kidding, only knome and bluesabre 
[16:03] <elfy> :p
[16:03] <pleia2> knome: so the plan with 12.04 is to only review the docs for accuracy (not backport the entire 12.10 rewrite), I can put out the call to do that any time
[16:04] <elfy> bet you can't do it last week ... 
[16:05] <pleia2> elfy: changed my mind, you suck too
[16:05] <pleia2> :P
[16:05] <elfy> :D
[16:05] <knome> pleia2, uhm, wait...
[16:05] <knome> pleia2, we do want the new looks, don't we?
[16:05] <pleia2> knome: isn't that just css changes or something?
[16:06] <knome> there was a bunch of other changes and cleanup with the new docs too
[16:06] <knome> so tbh, i would rather go the backportish way...
[16:06] <knome> (we can merge the appropriate, deleted-for-12.10 stuff back in)
[16:07] <pleia2> ah, wow, ok
[16:07] <knome> if you want, i can do a diff on the two branches
[16:07] <pleia2> I think the diff will be unusable
[16:07] <pleia2> it's too rewritten
[16:07] <knome> lol
[16:07] <knome> i was thinking to see the changes outside the actual content files
[16:08] <pleia2> ah ok
[16:08] <pleia2> we should probably help the doc writers out a bit by remembering what changed between 12.04 and 12.10
[16:09] <pleia2> 12.10 is when we dropped gimp and gnumeric, so we'll want people to add those pack (referencing 13.04 for that could do)
[16:09] <knome> well that's the first task
[16:09] <pleia2> s/pack/back
[16:09] <pleia2> what else?
[16:09] <knome> depends which way we want to go
[16:09] <knome> i would say the new docs are much much better in fluency and all other literal stuff too
[16:10] <knome> it would be silly to use the old docs that tell the same things worse
[16:10] <jjfrv8> Lot's of stuff moved from System to Settings Manager
[16:10] <knome> that's a relatively easy change
[16:10] <knome> just edit the entities file
[16:11] <pleia2> I think we pretty much ignore the current 12.04 docs
[16:11] <pleia2> just tell them to look at 12.10 and remove/add as needed
[16:11] <knome> so, should either
[16:11] <pleia2> the 12.04 docs aren't accurate either, so not so useful
[16:11] <knome> 1) just overwrite the precise branch (which actually doesn't exist); or
[16:12] <knome> 2) create a new branch and work with that until it's ready and then merge with the 12.04 branch?
[16:12]  * pleia2 vote #1
[16:13] <knome> the problem is that it doesn't exist
[16:13] <knome> we've build the precise docs off the natty branch
[16:13] <knome> so what if i just created the precise branch and then we'd just go ahead and leave that as the precise branch, and not touch the natty (precise) branch?
[16:14] <pleia2> yeah
[16:14] <knome> would be easier to diff/look at the differences, since you can just pull two branches and their trunk/main state is what you work with
[16:14] <knome> ok, now i need to remind myself how to create a new branch
[16:15] <pleia2> :)
[16:15] <knome> does it make much sense if i base off the 12.04 docs from current or 12.10?
[16:17] <jjfrv8> I would think from 12.10 because, as you said, the whole style changed
[16:17] <knome> 12.10 already has the new style
[16:17] <jjfrv8> That's what I mean.  We would use that style for 12.04
[16:18] <knome> so what i'm wondering if there were more changes that made it more unlike 12.04, or if most of the changes between 12.10->now were mostly grammar fixes
[16:18] <knome> because i can't think of *too* many things we've documented change from 12.10
[16:19] <jjfrv8> Yeah, I think it's mostly menu locations and titles
[16:20] <knome> ok, then i'll just rebase from now
[16:20] <knome> which is what i actually did already :P
[16:31] <knome> so,
[16:31] <knome> https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/precise
[16:31] <knome> there we go
[16:31] <knome> pleia2, our website says "Janary" @ help/
[16:33] <knome> i'll go fix that and drop oneiric and lucid from the supported releases
[16:34] <pleia2> sometimes I make up months
[16:34] <knome> it might have well been me that did that :P
[16:34] <pleia2> you too!
[16:34] <knome> weren't you away on raring release time?
[16:35] <pleia2> yeah, honeymoon
[16:35] <knome> exactly
[16:35] <knome> can't make months up on honeymoon
[16:36] <knome> https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs
[16:36] <knome> isn't the series view wonderful?
[16:36] <knome> only four branches to maintain!
[16:36] <pleia2> it looks like we have our act together!
[16:37] <knome> yup, looks
[16:38] <knome> pleia2, bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/natty-oneiric xubuntu-docs-precise
[16:38] <knome> um, no
[16:38] <knome> fsst
[16:38] <knome> idiocy warning!
[16:38] <knome> pleia2, bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/precise
[16:39] <knome> pleia2, bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/precise xubuntu-docs-precise
[16:39] <knome> ^ that one
[16:39] <jjfrv8> Gotta go. Will read the logs tonight for updates.
[16:39] <knome> jjfrv8, we'll send an email with important information. have fun!
[16:40] <jjfrv8> thx
[16:40] <pleia2> knome: the last one?
[16:40] <knome> oh wait
[16:40] <knome> crap.
[16:40] <knome> to get the old precise docs:
[16:40] <knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/natty-oneiric xubuntu-docs-precise-old
[16:41] <knome> to get the new precise docs:
[16:41] <knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/precise xubuntu-docs-precise
[16:42] <knome> somebody more wise with packaging could tell us what we need to do with the changelog, btw...
[16:43] <pleia2> since we're doing an SRU, changelog with dates from the quantal cycle is ok
[16:43] <pleia2> s/is/are
[16:43] <pleia2> ENGLISH
[16:43] <knome> haha
[16:43] <knome> ok, i'll let you handle that
[16:43] <pleia2> it's still early
[16:43] <pleia2> ok
[16:45] <knome> i just pushed the initial commit to make the docs say 12.04
[16:46] <pleia2> \o/
[16:46] <pleia2> shall I draft a mail to the list?
[16:46]  * pleia2 openetherpad
[16:46] <knome> yes please
[16:46] <knome> and paste the link so i can mess up
[16:46] <knome> :P
[16:47] <pleia2> http://etherpad.ubuntu.com/AOSmBvQEgu
[17:14] <knome> pleia2, i think the mail is pretty good.
[17:15] <pleia2> ok, I'll send it out
[17:23] <elfy> looks ok - just got it :)
[17:33] <knome> ok, i'm off for now
[17:33] <knome> will be back later today
[21:21] <Noskcaj> elfy, does the XFCE4 Window Manager test really need to have the lines "    <dt>Open Window Manager from Settings dialogue</dt>        <dd>Window Manager opens to Style tab, theme set to default</dd>"  in twice?
[21:22] <Noskcaj> dammit elfy
[21:24] <Unit193> knome: http://paste.openstack.org/show/RkLw3EeQkVMhytGBflcv is a mock-up for the additional drivers tag, would look like: https://www.dropbox.com/s/leben28fa8ovgms/control.png (May need some changes, of course.)
[21:24] <pleia2> Noskcaj: that tone really isn't necessary here
[21:25] <Noskcaj> pleia2, ok, it was a joke
[21:25] <pleia2> Noskcaj: noted, but we have a lot of new folks coming through here lately, we don't want to think that's how we interact with each other :)
[21:26] <Noskcaj> ok
[21:27] <knome> Unit193: i'm most open for that patch
[21:27] <knome> wondering if we can snatch up a list of translations from some old jockey .desktop file
[21:28] <Unit193> knome: I whiped it up to confuse bluesabre real quick, sooo. :P
[21:28] <knome> i see, i see (well done)
[22:15] <bluesabre> haha
[22:15] <bluesabre> confused I was
[22:44] <Unit193> Oh, and next meeting isn't on the Fridge calendar, if you wanted it there...
[22:46] <knome> pleia2, 
[22:47] <pleia2> knome
[22:47] <knome> <3
[22:47] <knome> would you update our calendars
[22:48] <pleia2> I updated ours, but not fridge
[22:48] <pleia2> I didn't know we were doing that, since we don't meet in -meeting
[22:48] <knome> i know the process isn't too painful, but it should be easier. :)
[22:48] <pleia2> the fridge meeting calendar is typically for scheduling time in #ubuntu-meeting
[22:49] <knome> right, i was thinking we didn't do fridge before
[22:49] <knome> do you think we should, or not?
[22:49] <pleia2> I don't think s
[22:49] <pleia2> o
[22:49] <knome> oki
[22:49] <knome> Unit193, ffuuu
[22:49] <Unit193> :3
[22:50] <Unit193> I've known other teams to do it, but not making anything out of nothing. :P   We don't link to our calendar, do we?
[22:50] <knome> not too much at least
[22:55] <pleia2> knome: now now
[22:56] <knome> wot?
[22:56] <pleia2> I was going to link it to our meetings page, but then I forgot or went to eat cookies or something
[22:56] <knome> mmm... cookies...
[22:56]  * skellat remains unsure of what to make of this
[22:56] <pleia2> Unit193: other teams do it, then people look at the fridge and think they can't schedule their meeting, so then they complain to pleia2 that the need a -meeting-alt and then I have to open everything up on the calendar and say "no wait, don't worry, that meeting isn't in -meeting!"
[22:56] <pleia2> it's annoying and means I have more work :)
[22:56] <knome> lol
[22:57] <skellat> So pleia2 has spoken, so shall it be?
[22:57] <pleia2> I've been slowly weaning people off doing that
[22:57] <knome> it shouldn't be called the fridge calendar then, it should be called the #ubuntu-meeting calendar
[22:57] <pleia2> "This is the official Fridge Calendar. It is used for #ubuntu-meeting"
[22:58] <Unit193> pleia2: Sure, and I understand the annoyance, but that should be their problem (yes, I know it's not.  I'll shutup. :P )
[22:58] <knome> the term fridge calendar is possibly misleading to people who have a short attention span.
[22:58] <pleia2> I don't even know what "fridge calendar" means
[22:58] <knome> wait, what were we talking about?
[22:58] <Unit193> I don't remember...
[22:58] <pleia2> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/
[22:58] <Unit193> pleia2: Fridge, it's where all the information goes.
[22:59] <knome> i suppose it's supposed to be an analogy of a calendar in your fridge that allows everybody in the household see shared/important events
[22:59] <pleia2> maybe in the 1950s
[22:59] <knome> *to see
[22:59] <pleia2> :)
[22:59] <knome> we have one!
[23:00] <pleia2> I think an old person made fridge
[23:00] <knome> well, not in the fridge, but... you know
[23:00] <pleia2> that's because your polar bear can't use a computer
[23:00] <knome> or on the fridge door. :P
[23:00] <pleia2> still needs to know what's what
[23:00] <knome> are you calling my wife a polar bear?
[23:00] <knome> hmm...
[23:00] <skellat> I have a blotter calendar hanging on a nail via a yarn triangle
[23:00] <pleia2> knome: no, the pet one you keep in the igloo
[23:01] <knome> my wife marks her work shifts on the calendar. easy to check if you need the information and don't have devices at your hand
[23:01] <knome> and no syncing worries
[23:01] <knome> it's just there
[23:01] <knome> pleia2, ;)
[23:01] <drc> the joys of the analog revolution
[23:02] <knome> definitely
[23:07] <Unit193> So we going to have one of those creepy faces on the internet things?
[23:08] <knome> yummy blueberry pie
[23:08] <knome> analog pie wins digital pie
[23:08] <drc> pie wins...period
[23:09] <drc> time to fill the pie-hole.
[23:29] <knome> ok, i'm off for today. more action tomorrow
[23:29] <knome> good night!
[23:30] <pleia2> night knome 
[23:31] <Unit193> Am I supposed to bump anyone/thing about that desktop file? ;P
[23:38] <ochosi> Unit193: you could file a bugreport