[01:33] <khttp> Hi, are there any super simple HTTP or TFTP or FTP servers with GUI that are in the repos?
[01:46] <mrproper> In Kubuntu how do I find out what to mount to access another hard drive
[01:47] <manchicken> mrproper: What do you mean? Do you mean how do you find which block device to mount? Do you mean where to mount it? Or do you mean something else?
[01:47] <mrproper> manchicken: Which block
[01:47] <lorddelta> Hey, I've got a (crashed) X server here; Its currently hung in memory (Its infinite looping), any clues how I might go about safely restarting it?
[01:47] <manchicken> mrproper: Is it like a CDROM, or a thumb drive, or a network share?
[01:48] <mrproper> It's a hard drive
[01:48] <manchicken> Oh, duh, you mean a hard drive :)
[01:48] <manchicken> Is it an internal or a USB hard drive?
[01:48] <manchicken> (e.g. removable storage)
[01:48] <mrproper> Internal
[01:48] <mrproper> had?
[01:48] <mrproper> hda?
[01:50] <manchicken> One second...
[01:51] <manchicken> mrproper: When you open Dolphin, do you see the drive under "devices"?
[01:52] <mrproper> manchicken: No mouse on there.
[01:52] <mrproper> I could probably dig one up though
[01:53] <manchicken> Okay, I'll look at cli options
[01:53] <mrproper> I did find fdisk -l
[01:54] <manchicken> Did that get you the answer you were looking for?
[01:54] <mrproper> Yeah I think it did
[01:54] <manchicken> mrproper: cool. Another option could be hwinfo
[01:55] <mrproper> manchicken: I'm trying to mount a vmfs partition, so it's lots of fun
[01:55] <manchicken> Like from VMWare?
[01:56] <manchicken> IS this on like an ESX or something?
[01:58] <mrproper> manchicken: It's a 1U server which has ESXi on it. But the NIC has problems with 5.1 so I need to patch it. Thus the really hard time copying directly to it
[01:58] <manchicken> mrproper: That makes sense :)
[01:59] <manchicken> mrproper: I've never done that, it sounds like a pain in the rear.
[01:59] <mrproper> manchicken: If you have any ideas, let me know!
[01:59] <manchicken> mrproper: I'm a lowly programmer, I usually just shove something USB into it :)
[02:00] <mrproper> manchicken: ESXi won't mount usb :)
[02:00] <manchicken> mrproper: I don't even think they have ports, do they?
[02:00] <mrproper> My server does, yes
[02:00] <manchicken> (maybe one for KVM, but not the VMs?)
[02:01] <mrproper> Mine lets me boot off USB if I want
[02:01] <manchicken> I imagine in a higly virtalized environment, physical devices get tricky.
[02:01] <mrproper> And I'm a lowly networking sales engineer
[02:04] <manchicken> How do you like being a sales engineer?
[02:04] <manchicken> I've heard mixed reviews of the role.
[02:23] <denysonique> Hi
[02:24] <denysonique> How different would be Kubuntu 13.04 from 12.04
[02:24] <denysonique> ?
[02:25] <denysonique> I am using the Kubuntu Backports anyway
[02:26] <manchicken> Kinda different.
[02:26] <denysonique> manchicken: go on
[02:32] <manchicken> denysonique: I believe they fixed a bunch of stuff with Intel graphics in 13.04, not sure on the specifics of that but I think it resulted in some pretty large .xsession-errors, also I don't believe they backport Kernel versions or Xorg except in the case of security.
[02:34] <denysonique> manchicken: thanks, currently I have no problems with my integrated Intel graphics chipset. Apart from that are there any other user experience differences?
[02:34] <manchicken> denysonique: http://www.howto-make.org/8w6TWMoneyEj_UH7/Ubuntu-12-04-vs-13-04.html
[02:34] <manchicken> denysonique: That's Ubuntu-specific
[02:35] <denysonique> manchicken: yep, seen it. it mainly discuess the changes of Unity
[02:35] <manchicken> denysonique: Looks like it's more comiz and xorg than Unity
[02:35] <manchicken> compiz*
[02:36] <manchicken> denysonique: What's the driver of your conflict?
[02:36] <manchicken> denysonique: Why agonize over it? Just don't want to deal with the upgrade, or do you want the LTS?
[02:38] <manchicken> denysonique: Also, are you using the backports repo or the backports ppa?
[02:38] <denysonique> manchicken: I need to reinstall my 12.04 anyway as I am switching to 64bit. And I am wondering whether there are any  benefits to choose 13.04. but I still think that 12.04 will be more stable
[02:38] <denysonique> manchicken: ppa for kde
[02:39] <denysonique> Also is the init system in 13.04 different form the 12.04 mess?
[02:39] <manchicken> I don't think the backports repo isn't going to have the latest KDE, but the ppa would... the ppa should be considered potentially more risky.
[02:39] <manchicken> denysonique: Then you're not adding stability.
[02:40] <manchicken> denysonique: Your DE is going to be the most rapidly changing part of your system, and the most likely to break.
[02:40] <manchicken> 13.04 is amazing for me so far.
[02:40] <denysonique> manchicken: yes, but with the latest KDE I have no problems and that is really easy to downgrade as opposed to other system specific changes in 13.04
[02:41] <manchicken> denysonique: What exactly are you worried about?
[02:42] <denysonique> nvm, I will stay with 12.04 just to avoid upgrading every 9 months
[02:43] <manchicken> denysonique: Why run PPAs then?
[02:44] <denysonique> for kde
[02:44] <lorddelta> Ugh I really wish I'd learned to hack a bit better, I might have been able to fix my problem; I can understand its nature I just don't know the opcodes well enough. Or, if anyone knows a way of restarting the X server without killing all the child applications, that'd work too.
[02:45] <denysonique> lorddelta: you cant restart x without killing children gui apps
[02:45] <manchicken> denysonique: But the PPA will be upgrading KDE
[02:46] <lorddelta> denysonique: and why is that? design flaw? Applications just get a pointer, I don't understand why there can't be a 'reload this server and reinitiliaze pointer resources' switch
[02:46] <manchicken> lorddelta: You do know that all of the applications require an open connection to the X server to maintain their GUI, and that restarting X would necessarily close that handle and create a new server which would require new handles, right?
[02:47] <manchicken> lorddelta: It's not a pointer, it's closer to a file pointer if you're going to over-simplify it :)
[02:47] <manchicken> Err, file handle
[02:48] <manchicken> lorddelta: Name one system on which you can shut all GUIs and not close all of the applications depending on that GUI.
[02:48] <lorddelta> Euh, isn't there a client with X? That's the whole point?
[02:49] <manchicken> lorddelta: Yes... each application is a client.
[02:49] <manchicken> In some cases, each application may be multiple clients.
[02:49] <lorddelta> So, yeah, any html application
[02:50] <lorddelta> You can restart the server
[02:50] <lorddelta> but the client stays ok
[02:50] <manchicken> lorddelta: You're ridiculously over-simplifying this.
[02:50] <manchicken> HTTP is a stateless protocol, X is not.
[02:50] <lorddelta> I'm sure I am.
[02:50] <manchicken> HTTP connects, transmits, then disconnects until another request is needed.
[02:51] <manchicken> X is a very stateful protocol, it maintains an open and bidirectional connection throughout the life of the process.
[02:51] <lorddelta> Unless the client manages its own resources, then its a matter of adding more state, no?
[02:51] <manchicken> The X server handles the driver interactions, etc. The apps don't even know how to send output or receive input without their open connection.
[02:51] <lorddelta> namely the state in which a program is suspended briefly while X restarts
[02:53] <manchicken> lorddelta: What about graphics memory?
[02:53] <manchicken> lorddelta: What about delays? What happens if the server doesn't come back?
[02:54] <manchicken> lorddelta: What happens if the hardware changes while the server is coming back?
[02:54] <manchicken> lorddelta: Or if there's a driver change?
[02:54] <lorddelta> one thing at a time
[02:54] <manchicken> lorddelta: There's no such thing as one thing at a time in GUI environments.
[02:55] <manchicken> lorddelta: Now you're talking about a fundamental change to the way threading works.
[02:56] <manchicken> lorddelta: Then there's video, 3d accel, all of those fun things.
[02:56] <lorddelta> If you are running graphics memory (for say custom drawing) then you can assume (for some of it at least) that it is beyond X's control (e.g. OpenGL), the rest is just a resource in memory somewhere, assuming there is a mapping stored somewhere, the process can reinit itself and take up all the old resources (assuming the problem didn't come from one of those resources)
[02:56] <lorddelta> Anyways the actual graphics state is usually refresheable from the application
[02:57] <lorddelta> if its doing any custom drawing
[02:57] <manchicken> lorddelta: And then you've got to figure out a way to communicate back to each and every one of those programs - across various different toolkits and versions of clients - what the new handle for the server should be. They'd have to program callbacks to deal with the suspension and then reinitialize when it comes back.
[02:57] <manchicken> lorddelta: Yes... assuming the application implements that.
[02:58] <lorddelta> manchicken: the server delays etc are already a part of the protocol, I don't know how drivers are handled but they ARE handled so I presume that's not a problem
[02:58] <lorddelta> Its not a fundamental change to threading because its just another state
[02:58] <lorddelta> like I said
[02:59] <manchicken> No, it totally is a fundamental change to threading.
[02:59] <lorddelta> And every application that does its own drawing will implement its own drawing, by definition.
[02:59] <manchicken> lorddelta: That's not true at all. Qt is something that does much of the drawing for many apps.
[03:00] <manchicken> Qt, GTK, Step, hell, even Tk does a lot of drawing for the application. That's the purpose of a TK.
[03:01] <manchicken> So, I've got a web-page loading, firing off a thread to fetch each resource from the network and then display. When the page is re-loading I lose my X connection. My threads now need to know to pause before rendering any of the images or executing any of the JavaScript or collecting any input from the buttons or keyboards or pointer devices.
[03:02] <lorddelta> Great, why don't you back up your assertion about threading, rather than just throwing it out there. Adding the state the application enables it to know when the server is restarting, so there is no need to touch threading, and as for Qt and the like, that may be true, but I'd argue that's just another level of abstraction, that doesn't truly affect the application as it will either depend on Qt to do the
[03:02] <lorddelta> drawing, which will refresh its state as needed, or the application doing custom drawing (say on a surface requested by Qt for it), will maintain its own information for actually drawing that surface.
[03:02] <manchicken> Then, if I have a video playing on the page, when X comes back I need to change the window and widget hierarchy for all things on the screen, then make sure my video player and my browser get a reference to the new X display, and possibly handle a resolution change.
[03:03] <manchicken> lorddelta: How much coding have you done in a GUI toolkit?
[03:03] <lorddelta> In or using one?
[03:03] <manchicken> Either, I suppose.
[03:04] <lorddelta> Almost zero actually programming a toolkit itself, but I've done Qt/GTK/HTML/Swing, so I'm familiar with using them.
[03:04] <manchicken> HTML is not a toolkit, it is a document formatting markup.
[03:04] <lorddelta> Please don't commit an Ad Hominem though; my experience doesn't make me more or less wrong.
[03:05] <manchicken> lorddelta: Ad hominem? Man, you just described HTML as a GUI toolkit.
[03:05] <lorddelta> manchicken; its a data language which powers the DOM
[03:05] <manchicken> lorddelta: No, it isn't. The DOM is powered by the browser.
[03:06] <lorddelta> Yes, it is. The browser implementes the DOM, HTML powers the engine by direction.
[03:06] <lorddelta> Much like UI files.
[03:06] <manchicken> lorddelta: HTML is a document markup. It powers the document. It is data, not application.
[03:07] <manchicken> lorddelta: UI files are used to generate code, the code is what then powers the GUI. HTML doesn't generate any code, it is rendered on screen.
[03:07] <lorddelta> manchicken; wrong, ui files can be used to generate code, but they also are directly interpretable by the engine, through use of a loader.
[03:08] <lorddelta> The absense of HTML code generation doesn't make it any different
[03:09] <lorddelta> It just makes a lot more sense not to generate code every time you send something accross the network.
[03:09] <manchicken> lorddelta: What the heck are you talking about?
[03:10] <lorddelta> manchicken: for starters, changes in the DOM are translated directly (more or less, where applicable) to and from the HTML code.
[03:11] <lorddelta> manchicken; secondly, check it out, its true; it is (or at least was possible last I checked) to load .ui files as part of an interface in a Qt program, at runtime.
[03:11] <manchicken> lorddelta: No, once the HTML is in memory JavaScript can be used to parse additional HTML and turn them into objects, but there is actually no HTML in the DOM once you're in memory.
[03:11] <lorddelta> GTK as well, at one point, although I think they killed off one side
[03:12] <manchicken> lorddelta: Yes, and they are essentially converted to objects in memory at runtime. It's not the UI file which powers anything, it's the UI file that presents the UI and then the code of the application drives the UI.
[03:12] <lorddelta> manchicken; so you're going to argue implementation details with me? Check out the web-inspector of a browser one of these days where something is dynamically modifying the DOM; you'll be able to watch the HTML code structure change on the fly as well.
[03:13] <lorddelta> *facepalm*
[03:13] <manchicken> lorddelta: You do know that this is doing the same thing as a debugger with debug symbols where it's only referring back to the original data file, right?
[03:13] <lorddelta> no manchicken, I'm an idiot and think HTML files live in MagicLand, not the memory. Whoever heard of the thing like Objects living in Memory?
[03:14] <manchicken> lorddelta: At least we can agree on your first point there. :)
[03:14] <lorddelta> manchicken; not really, since it implies something you doubtless don't agree with.
[03:15] <manchicken> lorddelta: You started off saying you need to improve your hacking, then went on to demonstrate that you don't understand how the X protocol fundamentally works, leveling a charge of some grand design flaw, and now you're boiling it all down to HTML and the DOM. Is that about it?
[03:15] <lorddelta> I did not level a charge of a design flaw.
[03:15] <lorddelta> I asked a question.
[03:15] <lorddelta> Learn to read '?' signs.
[03:16] <lorddelta> And while we're at it, you were the one that began picking a bone with HTML.
[03:16] <lorddelta> I only mentioned it in passing.
[03:16] <manchicken> lorddelta: If you want to be the guy who re-works X protocol to support this, modifies all of the GUI applications to support it, and then figures out how to get all of the drivers to support it, more power to you.
[03:16] <manchicken> lorddelta: You described HTML as a GUI toolkit, man. It isn't.
[03:16] <manchicken> lorddelta: Qt is a GUI toolkit. GTK is a GUI toolkit. HTML is a consumer of both, not one itself.
[03:17] <manchicken> lorddelta: If HTML were a GUI Toolkit then why would there be a need for Qt or GTK to implement HTML widgets?
[03:18] <lorddelta> Right, so instead of continuing our previous discussion, you are harping on HTML vs Native, because this helps how?
[03:18] <lorddelta> I don't agree with you, plain and simple, DOM<->HTML is an abstract UI model, plain and simple, whether or not its implemented on Qt or GTK widgets.
[03:18] <manchicken> lorddelta: It helps because I'm trying to show you that you aren't just oversimplifying a little bit, you are demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding about the entire system which you are suggesting people change.
[03:19] <manchicken> lorddelta: It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with me, you're wrong.
[03:19] <manchicken> lorddelta: HTML has no means by which to render a button or draw an image itself.
[03:19] <manchicken> lorddelta: It is only the thing which communicates to the actual toolkits what those buttons may want to look like and where they may want to go.
[03:19] <lorddelta> Ok, well does Qt have any way of doing that itself with regards to X?
[03:19] <manchicken> lorddelta: Yes.
[03:19] <lorddelta> Other than using OpenGL
[03:20] <manchicken> lorddelta: QButton is an object which has the capability to render a button on the screen.
[03:20] <manchicken> lorddelta: It's open source, you're free to read the code.
[03:20] <lorddelta> And it is implemented how?
[03:20] <manchicken> lorddelta: X protocol.
[03:20] <manchicken> (or win API, or Cocoa/Carbon, depending on the OS and environment in play)
[03:20] <lorddelta> ...you just said that it had its own way of drawing itself, without X.
[03:21] <lorddelta> (and no you can't change platforms to be 'right')
[03:21] <manchicken> lorddelta: I didn't say without X
[03:21] <lorddelta> 'Ok, well does Qt have any way of doing that itself without regards to X?'
[03:21] <lorddelta> manchicken: Yes
[03:21] <manchicken> lorddelta: Mir
[03:21] <lorddelta> ^ Yes you did
[03:21] <lorddelta> *facepalm*
[03:22] <lorddelta> Again, implementation of Qt, no?
[03:22] <lorddelta> Much like HTML, no?
[03:22] <manchicken> lorddelta: Qt doesn't directly write to the drivers, no. X does that.
[03:22] <manchicken> lorddelta: No, not at all.
[03:22] <manchicken> lorddelta: Not like HTML at all.
[03:23] <manchicken> lorddelta: HTML does not actually have any methods by which to paint an image on a screen.
[03:23] <lorddelta> Ok.
[03:23] <manchicken> lorddelta: Qt does.
[03:23] <lorddelta> wrong, take a look at Canvas and <input type="button">
[03:23] <manchicken> lorddelta: Who renders the button?
[03:23] <lorddelta> Qt, which in turn renders using X.
[03:23] <manchicken> lorddelta: What messages does HTML send to the drivers or the X server to paint that button?
[03:24] <manchicken> Exactly.
[03:24] <lorddelta> Abstraction layer.
[03:24] <manchicken> Qt is the toolkit, the browser is the application.
[03:24] <lorddelta> Well, then we agree, both are simply ABSTRACTION LAYERS
[03:24] <manchicken> The HTML is the application data.
[03:25] <manchicken> And HTML is actually considered user-level application data, because it is provided by the user's interaction with the server, not the application (browser) itself.
[03:25] <lorddelta> And if you have something against abstraction layers, perhaps you should be programming everything in X widgets.
[03:25] <MichaelP> Seems like 13.10 running kde runs smooth.. downloaded with gnome and that was crashed about 50 times in an hour... been runing kde now for an hour or 2 with no crashes !!
[03:25] <lorddelta> Or better yet roll your own memory access sytem (i.e. program your own equivalent of Mir)
[03:26] <manchicken> lorddelta: Have a good evening.
[03:26] <lorddelta> Why not just write it all in hardware while we're at it.
[03:27] <lorddelta> manchicken: since you just want to argue, ditto
[03:27] <lorddelta> (and yes, I've programmed my own display system in hardware, so don't tell me it can't be done)
[03:33] <lorddelta> Incidentally, I wonder if anyone has written a straight up X widgets browser.
[08:19] <miku_> $
[08:30] <FloodBotK1> !netsplit
[08:46] <FloodBotK1> !netsplit
[08:49] <infrid> hi
[08:54] <FloodBotK1> !netsplit
[09:07] <FloodBotK1> !netsplit
[09:24] <FloodBotK1> !netsplit
[09:48] <adugeek> no one speak ?
[09:49] <lordievader> Hey adugeek
[09:53] <lordievader> adugeek: Many idlers in this room ;)
[11:02] <FloodBotK1> !netsplit
[11:03] <Guest87521> hello
[11:04] <lordievader> Hello Guest87521
[11:09] <Guest87521> I'm having a problem with Dragon Player 2. It says it needs a codec upgrade. How do I do that ?
[11:10] <Guest87521> Can anyone please help me ?
[11:12] <lordievader> Guest87521: Have you installed the kubuntu-restricted-extras package?
[11:42] <ss_haze> can I have wobbly windows with kwin?
[11:44] <lordievader> ss_haze: Yes, simply enable the plugin and make sure the compositor is set to OpenGL, Xrender doesn't support the wobbly windows plugin.
[11:44] <ss_haze> I founded it, tnx
[11:54] <BluesKaj> Howdy folks
[12:31] <MichaelP> im on ubuntu gnome.. installed kubuntu-desktop.. how do i do a pure kde
[12:33] <lordievader> Thought there was a factoid for that.
[12:33] <lordievader> !purekde
[12:33] <lordievader> Well, there you go.
[12:34] <MichaelP> Already on that page.. it showing how to remove ubuntu unity not gnome shell
[12:35] <lordievader> Ah, too bad. I don't know how to remove that stuff. Probably best to find the main gnome-shell lib and remove that and then run an apt-get autoremove.
[14:42] <MichaelP> kubuntu 13.04 kde 4.11 beta2.. the bar on top of the windows with the minamize maxamize close buttons is missing !!
[19:57] <cesdo> Hello everybody!
[19:58] <lordievader> Hey cesdo
[19:59] <cesdo> lordievader, where are you from?
[19:59] <lordievader> cesdo: Many people have asked that the last couple of days, you get the same answer: Stick around long enough and you'll find out ;)
[20:01] <cesdo> lordievader, ok)
[20:01] <lordievader> cesdo: So how are you?
[20:04] <cesdo> I am... So, I've heard about Kubuntu in Fullcircle magazine and now I see what a perfect job it is! I'm from Moscow, Russia
[20:04] <lordievader> cesdo: Kubuntu is great :D
[20:05] <cesdo> lordievader, what IRC channel is the most interesting?
[20:05] <cesdo> about Ubuntu, of course)
[20:06] <cahir> hello guys ;)
[20:06] <cesdo> Hey, folks! What Ubuntu IRC channel is the most interesting?
[20:07] <lordievader> cesdo: Depends on who you are ofcourse, but for offtopic chatter head over to #kubuntu-offtopic
[20:07] <lordievader> Hey cahir
[20:33] <ss_haze> how to edit right click menu on item in dolphin
[20:33] <ss_haze> I want to add option to copy to home and desktop
[20:34] <ss_haze> I know there were some magic trick where you can add options to kde menus
[23:29] <Kalimdor> need help: resolution reset on reboot with nvidia x server but xorg saves data
[23:30] <Kalimdor> any solution?
[23:46] <raidteck> hi