[01:32] <SquirrelNuts> Hi, I'm having an issue flashing back to Android from Ubuntu Touch.  My backup is on my PC, but my PC is not recognizing my phone, I assume because USB Debugging is not on.  I also can't seem to download a ROM though the Ubuntu browser.  I have TWRP, but everything was wiped, so no ROM's or backups are on my phone. Would someone be able to help me out?  On a nexus 4 by the way.
[01:33] <wilee-nilee> SquirrelNuts, Can't you download it from the fastboot recovery
[01:33] <wilee-nilee> you in linux or windows
[01:33] <SquirrelNuts> Download a ROM from recovery?
[01:33] <SquirrelNuts> Windows
[01:34] <SquirrelNuts> I dont have Ubuntu PC
[01:34] <wilee-nilee> SquirrelNuts, what is the access tool used in windows?
[01:34] <SquirrelNuts> I don't know what you mean.
[01:37] <wilee-nilee> SquirrelNuts, I wondered if there is a tool run in windows to do many things, for example I have a nexus 7 I use the google nexus tool kit it does it all loading roms rooting backing up and much more.
[01:38] <SquirrelNuts> Oh, yes, I used Wugz Toolkit for all stuff.  But it useless because it cant run adb commands without usb debugging enabled.
[01:39] <wilee-nilee> SquirrelNuts, If it were me I would look at the side load from recovery for the stock or you backup rom, just a guess though.
[01:40] <wilee-nilee> I think you can use  the terminal in windows to load stuff, in linux you can, but as you have noticed without the usb debugging running it is harder.
[01:41] <wilee-nilee> you might try #android as well
[01:42] <SquirrelNuts> Ok, thanks.  I'll google how to run adb w/o debugging
[01:47] <harris> hello
[01:51] <AbuAyyoub> Hello everyone.
[01:51] <harris> hi
[01:52] <AbuAyyoub> I was wondering if someone could answer a simple question for me. Will I be able to install ubuntu touch on any old-rooted android phone? I have a beloved  Japanese Sharp SH7218u flip-phone that runs 2.2 Gingerbread and I think that Ubuntu OS on it would be awesome considering I can't upgrade it. Is this something that would be possible like being able to install linux on virtually any PC? or will it need to be configured for specific devices?
[02:22] <xnox> AbuAyyoub: to enable a new device, a port needs to be done. At the moment all ports are Ice-cream sandwich based as far as I can tell. Is there a cyanogenmod available for that device? that would be the first step.
[02:31] <dejello> hello
[03:02] <dejello> Any updates for porting yet?
[03:16] <Seechay> Sooo just a couple of questions, how do you go back a screen on the Nexus 7 o.o
[05:29] <rickspencer3> hi didrocks ogra_`
[05:29] <didrocks> hey rickspencer3
[05:30] <rickspencer3> so, I guess today is about getting to green on the dashboard?
[05:30] <rickspencer3> didrocks, ^ ?
[05:31]  * rickspencer3 brews strong cup of coffee
[05:32] <didrocks> rickspencer3: it is AFAIK :)
[05:32] <rickspencer3> looks like the tests are running over the weekend, but they failed for the apps
[05:33] <rickspencer3> pitti, good morning
[05:37] <rickspencer3> didrocks,  is it the case that auto-pilot needs a bug fix to run those tests, or do the tests just need to be fixed?
[05:38] <didrocks> rickspencer3: I would guess it's the case of tests needing to be fixed, if those packages went to distro, they pass on desktop
[05:38] <didrocks> rickspencer3: but I think upstream should do the full analyze, I've tons of emails to answer to get Mir ASAP in distro
[05:38] <rickspencer3> didrocks, do you know who from the applications team can answer the question definitively, who would be awake now r soon?
[05:38] <rickspencer3> didrocks, I think they did that analysis on Friday
[05:38] <didrocks> rickspencer3: osomon should be one of the first european folk
[05:39] <rickspencer3> didrocks, and ack, I'll follow up with gema and whoever from the apps team
[05:39] <didrocks> rickspencer3: do you want me to stop on click packages and mir and track that?
[05:39] <rickspencer3> didrocks, no
[05:39] <rickspencer3> I'll follow up with osomon if/when he's up
[05:39] <rickspencer3> :)
[05:39] <didrocks> great ;)
[05:39] <rickspencer3> gema, good morning :)
[05:41] <didrocks> I'm going to release all the stuff that are in manual publishing mode
[05:41] <didrocks> but some packages are blocked because tests failing
[05:41] <rickspencer3> oh, looks like lots of the apps team is european-based :)
[06:04] <gema> rickspencer3: morning
[06:04] <rickspencer3> hi gema
[06:04] <rickspencer3> gema, so, any idea where we are at getting the application tests passing?
[06:05] <gema> rickspencer3: on the QA side we are working to keep the tests running and to remove infrastructure issues
[06:05] <rickspencer3> gema, do you know why the tests are failing?
[06:06] <gema> rickspencer3: regarding the runs, I know that adb is failing at times and retrying makes it work so we are going to implement an automatic retry when adb fails
[06:06] <rickspencer3> gema, is it the case that when the tests run, they pass, or is it the case that when they run, they fail?
[06:07] <gema> rickspencer3: regarding the tests themselves we did some investigation on friday and have some bugs/problem reports on this pad: http://pad.ubuntu.com/test-triaging
[06:07] <rickspencer3> where "the tests" are the application auto-pilot tests are that making the dashboard red?
[06:07] <gema> rickspencer3: on the 18th image which we did a full read of the logs and why tests were failing
[06:07] <gema> rickspencer3: there were failures that are either the tests being wrong or the code being wrong
[06:08] <gema> rickspencer3: we have no way to tell by looking at the logs, it's up to the developers
[06:08] <gema> rickspencer3: we are going to look at more logs today and continue to raise bugs
[06:08] <gema> rickspencer3: we are marking any bugs we raise on this qa-touch
[06:08] <gema> (tagging)
[06:10] <gema> rickspencer3: atm there are many failures, and the QA team cannot cope with all the triaging alone, so it'd be good to have developers doing this as well
[06:10] <rickspencer3> gema, I can't imagine that there is a set of new issues since last Monday
[06:10] <gema> rickspencer3: I hope not, will tell you when we've gone through the logs
[06:10] <rickspencer3> from what I understood on Friday, the problem was that the tests were incompatible with auto-pilot
[06:11] <gema> rickspencer3: ok, so you think they'll pass today?
[06:11] <gema> rickspencer3: have there been fixes on the tests side?
[06:11] <rickspencer3> gema, I don't
[06:11] <gema> rickspencer3: ok
[06:11] <rickspencer3> I don't think so because I think that everyone is just saying that it's everyone else's problem
[06:11] <rickspencer3> and I can't find out if the tests have even been fixed yet
[06:11] <rickspencer3> however, it's still early today
[06:11] <rickspencer3> I think I got up too early ;)
[06:12] <gema> rickspencer3: I will go through them this morning and let you know the status
[06:12] <rickspencer3> gema, I suspect we can make it green today if it's just a matter of fixing the tests
[06:12] <gema> rickspencer3: ideally
[06:12] <rickspencer3> but if auto-pilot also needs to be fixed, then I am not so certain
[06:12] <rickspencer3> I suspect the case is that the tests just need to be fixed
[06:12] <gema> rickspencer3: we have people in the US that can fix autopilot if we know what's wrong with it
[06:13] <rickspencer3> gema, I suspect that auto-pilot is red herring
[06:13] <gema> rickspencer3: me too
[06:13] <rickspencer3> that what really happened was that they didn't look at the tests until Friday, and realized that they were written in a desktop specific manner
[06:13] <rickspencer3> but no one is up yet who can tell me what's up ;)
[06:14] <gema> rickspencer3: ok, I will wait for that as well before going through the same logs
[06:14]  * rickspencer3 tries to be patient
[06:14] <gema> rickspencer3: need to go out for a bit, bb a bit later
[06:14] <rickspencer3> bye
[06:41] <jo-erlend> wow... Ubuntu Touch on my Nexus 7 uses more power on my tablet than I'm able to provide using USB from my desktop.
[06:41] <jo-erlend> and it's just been idling.
[06:44] <cjwatson> sbeattie: Couple of quick things I noticed about click-apparmor while looking over it on the train: undefined 'error' name in aa-clickprototype; and I think "Trigger: yes" in your .click-hook is unnecessary and can only cause problems?
[06:45] <cjwatson> (i.e. click-apparmor doesn't define a dpkg trigger)
[06:46] <cjwatson> Does anyone know what the state of the application lifecycle work is, i.e. whether it'll be usable by, oh, say, Tuesday?
[07:00] <rickspencer3> tvoss_, can you answer cjwatson? ^
[07:00] <tvoss_> cjwatson, what do you need in terms of lifecycle?
[07:01] <tvoss_> rickspencer3, sure
[07:04] <tvoss_> cjwatson, we have the basic app lifecycle in place, so would be good to know what you need and check if that is available
[07:05] <cjwatson> tvoss_: Enough to implement the desktop file handling from near the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/ApplicationConfinement/Manifest
[07:05] <cjwatson> tvoss_: If you could tell me what source package(s) implement the app lifecycle then I can go look
[07:08] <tvoss_> cjwatson, ah, I think we are talking about a different app lifecycle here :) I'm talking about lifecycle at runtime, stopping and killing apps when they are not in the foreground
[07:08] <cjwatson> I suspect we are
[07:28] <gema> ogra_`: when are we expecting the next image?
[07:35] <nik90|Office> Hi Paolo. Thnx for the delete icon. I got it merged to trunk
[07:35] <PaoloRotolo> Hi nik90|Office :) No problem for me, I like design stuff ;)
[07:35] <nik90|Office> PaoloRotolo: It is now also being used by the weather app :)
[07:37] <PaoloRotolo> nik90|Office, cool :D
[07:38] <PaoloRotolo> BTW, who designed the original icon?
[07:39] <nik90|Office> that came from the canonical design team
[07:46] <ogra_`> gema, as i wroite in my mail on saturday, the build now starts at ~10:00 UTC
[07:46] <ogra_`> (we had to move it by 1.5h)
[07:47] <gema> ogra_`: to which list did you send it?
[07:47] <PaoloRotolo> nik90|Office, so, why they didn't release any .svg?
[07:47] <ogra_`> gema, ubuntu-phone indeed
[07:48] <nik90|Office> PaoloRotolo: I did ask for them, however I think that they are too busy with the design of the core apps to create and release them
[07:48] <ogra_`> as a folowup to the former mail that told about build times
[07:48] <gema> ogra_`: thanks, I am not on that list, I will join :)
[07:48] <ogra_`> heh yeah. you should ...
[07:49] <ogra_`> gema, so we had to move it due to daily-release seemingly not being movable and that started to late to make it on the images otherwise
[07:49] <ogra_`> bevore it ran at 8:30 UTC
[07:50] <ogra_`> *before
[07:50] <didrocks> ogra_`: it's not due to the time when daily release starts
[07:50] <didrocks> it's due to the fact that we have to manually ack packaging changes
[07:50] <didrocks> so apart if you want to ask people with upload rights to wake up at 3am…
[07:50] <gema> didrocks, ogra_`: sounds good, just wanted to be able to plan my morning around when the images will be ready
[07:51] <ogra_`> didrocks, 3am isnt 3am :)
[07:51] <didrocks> ogra_`: ?
[07:51] <ogra_`> (we're on the internet ... )
[07:52] <didrocks> ogra_`: well, there is nobody in the AU time on our team
[07:52] <gema> didrocks: when are you going to be daily releasing automatically for touch? (phew, I avoided the autolanding word)
[07:52] <didrocks> gema: ? we already do that automatically
[07:52] <didrocks> for months
[07:52] <ogra_`> if US people could review the work it would be in at 11pm :)
[07:52] <didrocks> ogra_`: it's branching and running automatically for 240+ components
[07:52] <gema> didrocks: I thought you were going to start running the tests on the mobile devices that we got you a week or so ago?
[07:53] <didrocks> gema: but that's not linked to daily releasing automatically or not, what do you mean?
[07:53] <didrocks> ogra_`: well, on Sunday as well? :p
[07:53] <ogra_`> didrocks, indeed not on weekends :)
[07:53] <gema> didrocks: uhmmm, I may be confused then, I thought you wanted those for autolanding (to be able to run on touch as well as the ones you already do, desktop)
[07:54] <didrocks> autolanding*
[07:54] <didrocks> gema: right now, we daily release everyday
[07:54] <didrocks> automatically
[07:54] <didrocks> the only difference is that:
[07:54] <didrocks> - tests are running on desktop
[07:54] <didrocks> not on phone
[07:54] <didrocks> then, we'll run the tests on desktop AND phones
[07:54] <didrocks> but for that, we need time to wire things up
[07:54] <gema> didrocks: ok, do you have an ETA for the wiring to be done?
[07:55] <didrocks> seeing the number of requests and backlog, I can't promise any deadline, already 13h a day isn't enough to get new requests unstacked :p
[07:55] <ogra_`> didrocks, the point is that we delay everyone who needs to work with the images in europe until the afternoon ... but we'll have a meeting for that today, lets not talk it through now :)
[07:55] <didrocks> gema: so if your team can help, that would be appreciated
[07:55] <gema> didrocks: I believe jibel is helping with that
[07:55] <didrocks> ogra_`: if you want, you can ack manual packaging changes yourself, I can give you the right for that :)
[07:55] <didrocks> ogra_`: so please, do that while I'm sleeping and everything will be fixed :p
[07:56] <didrocks> gema: he is, but he has other autopkgtests demands as well
[07:56] <gema> didrocks: ack, I will talk to him later today about that
[07:56] <gema> didrocks: do you know at least how much effort is involved in the wire up?
[07:57] <didrocks> gema: not that much, I think 3 days would be enough
[07:57] <gema> didrocks: ok
[07:57] <ogra_`> didrocks, i'm not attacking you, dont always take it personal, we need to find solutions for delays in the process in the long term, that has nothing to do with you or me
[07:57] <didrocks> just need to find those
[07:57] <gema> ogra_`: +1 :)
[07:57] <didrocks> ogra_`: right, but we need to find solutions as you tell. It seems you just want requirements :p
[07:57] <didrocks> ogra_`: because why not as well building the image during the european night, instead of the morning?
[07:58] <ogra_`> we need to define the requirementsd before knowing what we need to improve, no ?
[07:58] <gema> ogra_`: building overnight doesn't sound bad, it'd give us some more time to look at results and maybe respin in the mornings
[07:58] <gema> EU mornings
[07:58] <jibel> gema, I gave you an ETA for daily-release tests on touch which is first half of this week
[07:59] <ogra_`> didrocks, because there are other scheduled builds running before, we only have one livefs builder .... see its not only daily stuff that delays it, this one is in need of fixing too
[07:59] <didrocks> well, since last week, I just read some "that sucks" or comparable sentences without any kind of "I want to understand the issues or work on those to help them working". Also, when you are telling others about why this is that way, you don't mention the real details
[07:59] <gema> jibel: true, thanks for the reminder
[07:59] <jibel> gema, I did all the deployment test on a grouper and since I received a phone last week it needs some adjustements
[07:59] <ogra_`> didrocks, on the image side i would even like to get to 4 builds/day or so
[07:59] <ogra_`> didrocks, remember, apt will soon be gone
[07:59] <didrocks> ogra_`: you can have image builds without having new components to release
[08:00] <didrocks> so that's not related :)
[08:00] <ogra_`> so fixes and updates obnly come via image updates
[08:00] <gema> jibel: ack, fyi grouper seems more stable than mako or maguro when it comes to running autopilot tests
[08:00] <didrocks> remember that we need a way for upstream to sync their work
[08:00] <gema> jibel: that doesn't mean they are passing, though
[08:00] <didrocks> which is 00 UTC as of now, as it seems it was the best times across teams
[08:00] <ogra_`> didrocks, as i said, lets not discuss it before asac's meeting this afternoon
[08:01] <gema> jibel: it'd be good to know, whenever you have the tests running, how they compare to our runs on images
[08:01] <gema> jibel: and if the failures are in the same places
[08:01] <didrocks> ogra_`: right, just try to give details rather than pointing "this is because of that, but I don't know why" when this was explained :)
[08:01] <jibel> gema, indeed, it'd be good to publish thomein the dashboard too so we can compare :)
[08:02] <jibel> s/thomein/ them in/
[08:02] <ogra_`> didrocks, sorry, i dont point, and its a fact that daily releases only run once a day
[08:02] <gema> jibel: yep, we are working on that as well, even though the views are not straight comparable yet
[08:02] <didrocks> ogra_`: which is again, a requirement for upstream to sync their work
[08:02] <didrocks> as I explained you multiples times :)
[08:02] <lool> cjwatson, tvoss: to be precise, I think this relates to the way apps are started / stopped rather than to other application states such as running/suspended, foregrounded/backgrounded etc.
[08:02] <ogra_`> didrocks, yeah and i'm still not willing to accept that this is not changeable
[08:03] <lool> cjwatson: Specifically I guess you want to ensure that we stop and prevent apps from launching before an upgrade of said apps, then allow it again once upgrade is complete?
[08:03] <didrocks> ogra_`: once we start to keep things backward compatible, it will be possible
[08:03] <didrocks> ogra_`: from experience, I can tell you it won't be before 1.0
[08:03] <didrocks> (at best)
[08:03] <ogra_`> lets keep that for the meeting, so we dont need to talk it through twice
[08:06] <didrocks> gema: btw, another way to compare is you having the autopilot tests running on desktop as well :)
[08:06] <didrocks> gema: so that we see if the issue is in infra, in difference since latest image and so on
[08:07] <didrocks> gema: but yeah, having already our existing tests showing up on the dashboard would be great :)
[08:07] <gema> didrocks: we were going to land it friday but there were errors when doing a full import of the data, so we held it
[08:07] <gema> didrocks: we should get there soon
[08:07] <didrocks> you mean testing on desktop?
[08:07] <didrocks> or publishing our results?
[08:07] <gema> didrocks: no, the dashboard results for daily release testing
[08:08] <didrocks> gema: oh excellent! I wasn't in the loop, so I hope they took the right jobs :)
[08:08] <gema> didrocks: I hope so too, we can iterate fairly quickly after we land it so I will let you know as soon as it is there so that you can have a look
[08:09] <didrocks> oki
[08:09] <gema> didrocks: fginther and alesage are working on it, hopefully they know what jobs they are dealing with :)
[08:09] <didrocks> gema: they never asked, so I hope as well ;)
[08:10] <asac> ho :)
[08:10] <didrocks> ogra_`: FYI, everything is published now (apps is currently moving from proposed to release pocket)
[08:10] <didrocks> ogra_`: so, once done, you are able to kick manually an image to get results beforehand
[08:11] <asac> gema: jcollado: seesm dashboard populated itself nicely during weekend; maguro 21 seem to have fallen over a bit though: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/smokeng/saucy/image/3086/
[08:11] <didrocks> only unity isn't published for tests failing, but that doesn't impact you
[08:11] <lool> cjwatson: is that the only interface you would need?
[08:11] <ogra_`> asac, mako 20 hasnt run the app tests
[08:12] <lool> cjwatson: I guess we would also want to signal progress of the upgrade to the shell
[08:12] <ogra_`> there seems to still be a race that is  hit sometimes
[08:12] <tvoss_> lool, cjwatson so basically the upstart-based application launching, right?
[08:12] <rickspencer3> good morning asac
[08:12] <asac> ogra_`: right. but thats more stable than it was :)
[08:12] <lool> tvoss_: Yes
[08:12] <ogra_`> definitely :)
[08:12] <asac> rickspencer3: helo :)
[08:12] <rickspencer3> asac, I agree with you, the tests *ran* (mostly) so that's a good start
[08:13] <asac> ogra_`: what was the last day we propagated an image?
[08:13] <asac> to current?
[08:13] <ogra_`> asac, 16th
[08:13] <asac> ok ...
[08:14] <gema> asac: it needed a bit of handholding from doanac, but yes it did
[08:14] <asac> gema: oh. you say, whole weekend doanac was pushing buttons?
[08:14] <gema> asac: haven't you read his emails? :P
[08:15] <gema> asac: I am not sure if the whole weekend, but he was definitely diagnosing problems and retrying things
[08:15] <gema> asac: good thing is, he knows where our unstability comes from (for the most part) and we are going to be working on fixing that
[08:16] <asac> gema: "weekend view of smoke testing for touch" ?
[08:16] <asac> that one?
[08:16] <gema> asac: yep, and automated testing notes 2013-07-19
[08:30] <gema> asac: main issues hitting us according to doanac's analysis are adb failing randomly and wifi not being available quickly enough, so we will be working on those two
[08:33] <cjwatson> lool: I don't care even a little bit about whether apps are prevented from launching or whatever.  I want a documented way to create .desktop files that launch apps :)
[08:33] <cjwatson> lool: I don't care about signalling progress either
[08:35] <asac> gema: have you seen my phablet-tools merger requests?
[08:35] <asac> they were about wifi
[08:35] <asac> or rather having more accurate debugging etc.
[08:35] <asac> let me see if someone reviewed them by now :)
[08:37] <lool> cjwatson: oh ok; .local/share/applications/ should work, but indeed we should confirm the best path
[08:37] <asac> ogra_` and friend: https://code.launchpad.net/~asac/phablet-tools/wait-for-online-with-nm-tool/+merge/174894
[08:37] <asac> this thing will help :)
[08:37] <cjwatson> lool: I know that part, but there's rather more to it than that
[08:37] <lool> didrocks: who would be the best person to discuss dash / launcher integration with click packages?  (place to write generated .desktop files)
[08:37] <cjwatson> lool: see the wiki page I cited above
[08:38] <didrocks> lool: should be mhr3
[08:38] <ogra_`> asac, you didnt answer my question :)
[08:38] <lool> cjwatson: Yeah I looked at it, but it wasn't obvious what's handled by click packages and what's handled by dash
[08:39] <ogra_`> why the extra subshell spawning
[08:39] <cjwatson> lool: a click hook needs to write out a .desktop file that arranges for the app to be launched under apparmor
[08:39] <cjwatson> er, with the appropriate profile I mean
[08:39] <cjwatson> I don't think the dash can be very much involved in that part
[08:39] <lool> cjwatson: write, and for now the only way is to prepend aa-exec
[08:40] <cjwatson> unfortunately what I read in the wiki page seems to be that we have to write an auxiliary shell script, which is pretty rubbish
[08:40] <cjwatson> (due to bug 1200437(
[08:40] <lool> cjwatson: so you're looking for a package to transport the click hook that would take an input .desktop file and generate one with aa-exec
[08:41] <cjwatson> well, knowing which package to put it in would be nice, yes, but I was hoping to be told that the insane generate-auxiliary-shell-script rubbish might be avoidable
[08:42] <lool> didrocks: thanks
[08:42] <asac> ogra_`: as i said, the code can be improved... grep played some games on me, so I used sh -c ...
[08:43] <asac> ogra_`: see the comment i posted during submission
[08:43] <didrocks> lool: yw ;)
[08:43] <asac> "I don't like the sh -c "..." way of doing this, but couldn't get the | easily wrapped in a variable without doing it that way :)..."
[08:43] <ogra_`> asac, oh, i totally missed that sentence
[08:44] <ogra_`> asac, so set a commit message and we can approve
[08:44] <lool> greyback: Did you have a chance to review https://code.launchpad.net/~saviq/qtubuntu/fix-reversed-arguments/+merge/174313 and update app manager?
[08:44] <ogra_`> (so that jenkins stops failing)
[08:44] <asac> ogra_`: ok i submitted one branch for each commit...
[08:44] <asac> ogra_`: will merge bot process them one by one?
[08:44] <Saviq> lool, greyback's only on that because he's working on the next app manager
[08:44] <Saviq> lool, you need to harass ricmm for that MP
[08:44] <lool> Saviq: thanks  :-)
[08:45] <ogra_`> asac, i think they are merged in order, yeah
[08:45] <Saviq> lool, or rsalveti at least
[08:45] <Saviq> lool, I failed, I'm afraid
[08:45] <lool> Saviq: np
[08:45] <lool> ricmm: https://code.launchpad.net/~saviq/qtubuntu/fix-reversed-arguments/+merge/174313 is pretty urgent as to fix running click packages confined; would you mind taking a look when you get online?
[08:46] <lool> cjwatson: Outside of landing the fix (but we're a bit frozen right now), finding a package to hold the hook, would you miss other parts?
[08:46] <ogra_`> asac, hmm, gur there are no branches attached (or at least no changes shown) not sure you can do it like that
[08:47] <ogra_`> s/gur/but/
[08:48] <asac> ogra_`: i think i did a mistake
[08:48] <asac> now i have: https://code.launchpad.net/~asac/phablet-tools/check-device-and-ip-state-after-sleep/+merge/176145
[08:49] <asac> and https://code.launchpad.net/~asac/phablet-tools/improve-network-bringup-console-output/+merge/176144
[08:49] <asac> (2nd)
[08:49] <asac> and 3rd: https://code.launchpad.net/~asac/phablet-tools/wait-for-online-with-nm-tool/+merge/174894
[08:49] <cjwatson> lool: I think that's *probably* it, although I'm generally finding with this project that I'm not certain how much there is to do until I've done it :)
[08:49] <lool> cjwatson: hehe
[08:49] <asac> ogra_`: odd ... first proposal didnt add the bot
[08:49] <asac> https://code.launchpad.net/~asac/phablet-tools/check-device-and-ip-state-after-sleep/+merge/176145
[08:50]  * greyback is wondering is Saviq 's irc client has a notification whenever he gets pinged
[08:50] <greyback> he=greyback
[08:50] <cjwatson> In particular I'm going to have to think about how the apparmor and desktop hooks (and presence/absence of either) interact
[08:50] <cjwatson> But I have to solve it before Wednesday one way or another
[08:50] <xnox> ogra_`: so what needs doing to start building images from my android package? (at least out of ppa to begin with)
[08:51] <lool> cjwatson: I can see that with the .desktop files in local/ we'll eventually need some helper to fix inconsistenticies in case your system crashes right while we were adding/removing one; we also haven't touched on the signalling upgrades part  :-/
[08:51] <xnox> ogra_`: shall I automate uploads when/if: android, hybris, platform-api, kernels change?
[08:51] <xnox> ogra_`: or simply launch daily builds?
[08:51] <ogra_`> xnox, we need to add the ppa to livecd-rootfs ... then have a code snipped that installs the debs and copies the files out of the chroot into the build dir
[08:52] <lool> cjwatson: concerning absence of hooks, this is why I was pushing towards defaulting to no permission at all (entirely confined) for apps; jdstrand would know the final story on this
[08:52] <ogra_`> xnox, and in the second step cdimage needs to learn to publish them
[08:52] <lool> err I meant abscence of profile, not hook
[08:52]  * lool needs another coffee, it's way too hot here
[08:53] <Saviq> greyback, no, I get a notification whenever "saviq" shows up in a merge request URL ;)
[08:53] <cjwatson> lool: Yes, we talked about that on appstore-devel
[08:53] <greyback> Saviq: aha
[08:53] <ogra_`> xnox, given your bootimg has the right stuff in it i would suggest we replace the bootimg creation code in live-build/auto/build with the copy around code
[08:53] <cjwatson> lool: I don't see why we need to signal anything to the shell; surely it should notice changes in .local/share/applications via inotify
[08:54] <Saviq> ogra_`, do you guys get input in apps working on pending?
[08:54] <Saviq> popey_, ↑
[08:54] <ogra_`> Saviq, i doubt he is up, he is in oregon this week
[08:54] <Saviq> ah
[08:55] <ogra_`> and i havent tested on the weekend, let me sync a fresh image
[08:56] <Saviq> ogra_`, manta seems fine, my maguro must be b0rked, bootstrapping
[08:57] <ogra_`> 19 definitely worked here, thats the one i have installed accordign to the stamp
[09:00] <asac> gema: do we want to add more tests :)?
[09:00] <asac> i mean ... we are half way through the first batch only
[09:00] <ogra_`> asac, do you think i could mark a newer image as /current now ? or do we actually want to hold back until all of utah is fixed ?
[09:01] <ogra_`> asac, stgraber needs the newer recovery image stuff in /currend so a fresh bootstrap gets the new added ubuntu features that live in the recovery images
[09:01] <ogra_`> else system based upgrades wont work
[09:01] <gema> asac: I'd like to get these fixed before we add more to the batch
[09:01] <gema> asac: but I guess it's your call
[09:02] <ogra_`> (--bottstrap doesnt pull from --pending iirc)
[09:02] <asac> gema: ok... is there a way to have more tests added, but not report them on our main dashboard?
[09:02] <asac> in that way we could give more warnings to folks that havent been added
[09:02] <asac> so they can prep
[09:02] <gema> asac: that'd make it even more difficult for us to keep running
[09:02] <asac> ok
[09:02] <gema> asac: I'd like to fix the adb problem and the wifi unstability issue and then add the second batch
[09:02] <asac> gema: you think it can be more difficult?
[09:02] <asac> gema: you won't be able to solve the wifi issue unless its fixed by my bug
[09:03] <asac> err merge proposal
[09:03] <gema> asac: we will, we will make the test environment more resilient
[09:03] <gema> asac: can I have a look at your MP?
[09:03] <ogra_`> gema, see above ... we will need testing of the recovery mode too in the future, at least for the bits that were added on top of the stock recovery (gpg, parted and the system upgrader scripts)
[09:03] <asac> sure... it basically cleans stuff up and fixes that we still identify a device as online
[09:03] <asac> that is online on two net devices
[09:04] <asac> gema: https://code.launchpad.net/~asac/phablet-tools/wait-for-online-with-nm-tool
[09:04] <asac> gema: the real real solution would be to focus on adb
[09:04] <asac> and then somehow make networking go through adb
[09:04] <asac> at least the networking needed to setup device (e.g. pull new packages etc)
[09:04] <asac> wifi in a lab is always interference etc.
[09:05] <gema> asac: ok, if that's possible, but we also need to run tests on wifi
[09:05] <gema> asac: i.e. we need to make wifi robust
[09:05] <asac> ogra_`: can you maybe help gema getting some magic to get the networking through adb forward?
[09:05] <asac> gema: we can have wifi tests
[09:05] <asac> gema: but thats different from having all devices requiring wifi
[09:05] <asac> and pulling data
[09:05] <ogra_`> asac, ssh via adb you mean ?
[09:05] <asac> you could then tag one or two devices as wifi test devices
[09:05] <asac> rather than having all devices in parallel going on a wifi rampage
[09:05] <gema> asac: wifi is not failing randomly during execution, it is just sometimes taking longer to be up when provisioning
[09:06] <gema> asac: and the test tools wanting to start before the wifi is actually there
[09:06] <ogra_`> we dont have any network gardget support via usb atm in case you mean actual networking through USB
[09:06] <asac> gema: you are sure? my fix will also give us 20 more seconds :)
[09:06] <ogra_`> *gadget
[09:06] <asac> and better logging (so we really see if thats the problem)
[09:06] <gema> asac: if you fix does that, then it's most likely going to get rid of many of our problems
[09:06] <asac> gema: do our devices have a SIM?
[09:06] <gema> asac: some of them
[09:07] <asac> if so the current network code will not only fail if we are not waiting long enough
[09:07] <asac> but also will fail if both data as well as wifi are up too quick :)
[09:07] <gema> asac: so do you want sim on smoke testing devices or no sim?
[09:08] <asac> gema: thats fine to be in there...
[09:08] <gema> asac: so you want the devices to have sim
[09:08] <gema> correct?
[09:08] <asac> just saying that current phablet-tools "wait for networking" code will fail if we are online on wifi and gsm :)
[09:08] <asac> gema: i guess so
[09:08] <gema> asac: ok
[09:08] <gema> asac: then we'll have to fix the tools not to fail in that case
[09:09] <gema> asac: right now I don't think we have a sim on the devices we are using
[09:09] <gema> for smoke testing
[09:10] <gema> asac: we have two other devices with sim that we are using to get the connected tests ready
[09:10] <gema> and the lab infrastructure to do that
[09:10] <asac> gema: right. that sim might also explain why the networking falls over
[09:10] <gema> asac: no sim on smoke testing
[09:10] <asac> we have not enough logging to see whether with current code our network is up too quick or too late
[09:10] <asac> gema: ah ok
[09:11] <asac> then well, it will give us 20 seconds more
[09:11] <gema> asac: ack, we will try that
[09:11] <asac> ogra_`: well, dont want to add more requirements
[09:11] <asac> but maybe there is something smart we can do through adb forward
[09:11] <gema> asac: let me know when your fix lands so that we can update the phablet tools in the lab
[09:11] <asac> like doing a revert ssh tunnel
[09:11] <asac> for the http and ssh ports
[09:11] <asac> and seeding
[09:11] <asac> dnsmasq
[09:13] <cjwatson> sbeattie: FYI there's a "click pkgdir" in click 0.2.1 which you can use to get the top-level app directory from either the package name or any path underneath that directory
[09:13] <lool> cjwatson: I was thinking progress of the upgrade
[09:13] <cjwatson> lool: doesn't seem worth it
[09:13] <lool> cjwatson: e.g. over the duration of the download, and over the duration of the install
[09:14] <cjwatson> download, yes, but install I don't see the point
[09:14] <lool> cjwatson: unpacking a GB of data will take some time surely
[09:14] <cjwatson> maybe, but we don't have much of an opportunity to hook into the unpack to send signals
[09:14] <cjwatson> android doesn't bother with install progress
[09:14] <cjwatson> so I don't see a need to
[09:15] <lool> cjwatson: Right, neither does iOS show progress of the installation itself; but they both show when switching from download to installation
[09:15] <lool> but I guess that's implicit from the download progress
[09:16] <cjwatson> right, sure - that'll be a packagekit signal
[09:16] <ogra_`> asac, well, the androiid gadget driver has rndis networking support, the prob is that our adbd cant do that atm
[09:16] <lool> cjwatson: ack
[09:16] <asac> ogra_`: i can do: adb forward tcp:8888 22 on host
[09:16] <ogra_`> no, i'm takkking about real usb networking :)
[09:16] <asac> i could then ssh in and open a bunch of sneaky ports through host
[09:16] <ogra_`> *talking
[09:16] <asac> yeah. that seems too sophisticated
[09:16] <asac> :)
[09:16] <ogra_`> k :)
[09:17] <asac> less sophisticated might be to have a vpn port on host
[09:17] <ogra_`> would also be rather complex to teach to our adbd
[09:17] <asac> and then use the ssh trick to give the device whole networking
[09:17] <asac> but ... i would prefer to have something that just goes through fixed ports i guess
[09:17] <asac> we would need a port for ports and archive.ubuntu.com and one for ppa
[09:17] <asac> right?
[09:18] <asac> and one for code.launchpad :/
[09:18] <asac> guess its hard to do that transparently (without always hacking sources.list()
[09:18] <asac> ?
[09:18]  * ogra_` doesnt get what you mean
[09:18] <ogra_`> we have the PPAs in the images ... at least the ones we built from
[09:18] <JamesTait> Good morning all, happy Pi Approximation Day! :-D
[09:19] <asac> ogra_`: adb forward tcp:8888 tcp:22
[09:19]  * ogra_` wants it exact ... pfft approximation
[09:19] <ogra_`> asac, yes, but what does that have to do with the PPAs in sources.list ?
[09:19] <asac> ogra_`: ssh -P 8888 localhost -R 8081:archive.ubuntu.com:80 -R8082:ppa.launchpadd.net:80
[09:19] <asac> etc.
[09:20]  * cjwatson awaits ogra_`'s exact value for pi
[09:20] <asac> ogra_`: well you would have to say that s/ppa.launchpad.net/localhost:8082/
[09:20] <asac> :)
[09:20] <asac> on host
[09:20] <stgraber> asac: run squid on your machine (or a smaller proxy), then do a redirect of port 3128 and export http(s)_proxy=127.0.0.1:3128?
[09:20] <asac> stgraber: you are a genius :)
[09:20] <ogra_`> cjwatson, still computing, ask in 20 years again :)
[09:20] <asac> ogra_`: we install squid on the host ... and just do the proxy pipe through  through ssh -R
[09:21] <stgraber> or if in the DC, just forward straight to the DC's squid server (squid.internal or something like that)
[09:21] <asac> yay... we already have a proxy :)
[09:21] <asac> in the net i am sure
[09:21] <asac> gema: whats the proxy host name?
[09:21] <cjwatson> ogra_`: by which time you'll have (in relative terms) an infinitesimally better approximation, sure :)
[09:21] <ogra_`> :D
[09:21] <lool> cjwatson: it's π!
[09:22] <gema> asac: proxy host name for what?
[09:22] <asac> gema: for the DC
[09:22] <asac> your squid
[09:22] <cjwatson> τ/2
[09:22] <ogra_`> asac, right, we have a proxy and it already has all we need, i dont get what you want this for
[09:22] <asac> ogra_`: you just need to foll
[09:22] <asac> ow me :)
[09:22] <asac> ogra_`: we want to kill wifi
[09:22] <ogra_`> we have local mirrors everywhere
[09:22] <gema> asac: for what, packages ? or for web access or for ... ?
[09:22] <asac> ogra_`: and rather use adb forward to get the packages etc. .... to avoid flaky networking
[09:23] <asac> gema: packages, images, everything at best
[09:23] <ogra_`> asac, uh, then iw would actually go for rndis networking, might be less work than to maintain such a setup
[09:23] <asac> ogra_`: we already figured that its easiest to just use a squid
[09:24] <asac> that should cover almost everything
[09:24] <asac> we just need one reverse port forward
[09:24] <ogra_`> (surely more work to implement, but after all you want have to fiddle with it afterwards if something changes)
[09:24] <asac> through our adb ssh
[09:24] <ogra_`> rndis networking is a sysfs switch plus some NIC configuration ... you only have to implement that once
[09:25] <ogra_`> (and a restart of adbd)
[09:25] <asac> feels like a second step :)
[09:25] <ogra_`> why
[09:25] <asac> because i cant do it on my own :)
[09:25] <ogra_`> you wont have to maintain any proxy config at all then
[09:25] <asac> ogra_`: do we need more packages on the image?
[09:26] <asac> i would prefer to stick to the requirements we already have
[09:26] <ogra_`> no, adb would do it if you restart it with the right parameters
[09:26] <asac> and not grow requirements for the target image
[09:26] <ogra_`> ?
[09:26] <asac> ogra_`: so experience is:
[09:26] <asac> adb SPECIALSTUFF shell
[09:26] <asac> ping www.yahoo.de -> works and goes through adb ?
[09:26] <ogra_`> why would that need any other packages than we use now for networking
[09:26] <ogra_`> yes
[09:26] <asac> ogra_`: can you figure the magic for that :)?\
[09:26] <asac> SPECIALSTUFF
[09:27] <ogra_`> as long as the machine with adb has a route to ping yahoo indeed
[09:27] <ogra_`> asac, thats what i was ffering above ;)
[09:27] <asac> if its too tricky we can always fall back the the squid approach
[09:27] <ogra_`> *offering
[09:27] <asac> ogra_`: yeah... go ahea
[09:27] <asac> d
[09:27] <ogra_`> :)
[09:27] <asac> if it takes longer than 1-2 hours let me know...
[09:27] <elkng> when ubuntu for phones will be released ?
[09:33] <lool> barry: Saw your note on "pre-reboot success or failure": isn't that to be able to bubble up download errors or signature errors to e.g. system settings app?
[09:36] <didrocks> ogra_`: did you launch the build manually btw as all apps are in the release pocket?
[09:36] <asac> ogra_`: one thing you might want to remember is that there migth be real wifi/networking tests
[09:36] <asac> so we would need to be able to use route etc. to still ping and test our wifi
[09:36] <asac> but guess thats really just a smart route rule etc.?
[09:42] <asac> ogra_`: working?
[09:42] <asac> :)
[09:42] <asac> man ogra is slow today
[09:43] <asac> almost 20 minutes and still no working code ... lol
[09:52] <ogra_`> didrocks, nope, its jstating in 8 min anyway
[09:52] <ogra_`> asac, sorry was afk
[09:52] <didrocks> ogra_`: you could have won 1h30 :p
[09:53] <ogra_`> asac, setprop sys.usb.config rndis,adb && restart android-tools-adbd && ifconfig rndis0 up
[09:53] <ogra_`> asac, that gets me an rndis0 iface here
[09:53] <ogra_`> still need to fiddle a bit to make adbd skip unsetting it again from the upstart job
[09:54] <ogra_`> (during restart)
[09:55] <ogra_`> ah
[09:55] <asac> ogra_`: no dhclient etc. needed?
[09:55] <ogra_`> asac, setprop sys.usb.config rndis,adb && pkilladbd && /usr/bin/adbd
[09:55] <ogra_`> that one works
[09:56] <ogra_`> NM will then start to try to just configure rndis0
[09:56] <ogra_`> (my laoptop NM just goes crazy here ... let me check the phone)
[09:56] <asac> ogra_`: its really bad to use NM in hope and prey fashion
[09:56] <asac> ogra_`: will NM think thats a wired?
[09:56] <ogra_`> yes
[09:56] <asac> ogra_`: if so we can just do proper dhclient etc. and then know 100% after finishing that the net is good
[09:57] <ogra_`> well, nm ignores it on the phone side it seems
[09:57] <asac> or report a log etc.
[09:57] <asac> and NM will ignore that
[09:57] <ogra_`> so we can do ifconfig handling here
[09:57] <asac> ogra_`: ok then lets just do dhclient
[09:57] <asac> ogra_`: no dhclient?
[09:57] <ogra_`> on the laoptop side it sees the new device for me
[09:57] <ogra_`> asac, dhclient would require me to have a server on my chromebook :P
[09:57] <asac> ogra_`: right. but we will need that?
[09:58] <asac> in real setup?
[09:58] <ogra_`> yes, in the DC we will
[09:58] <ogra_`> anyway, try the above yourself
[09:58] <ogra_`>  setprop sys.usb.config rndis,adb && pkill adbd && /usr/bin/adbd
[09:58] <ogra_`> via adb indeed
[09:59] <ogra_`> adb shell sh -c "setprop sys.usb.config rndis,adb && pkill adbd && /usr/bin/adbd"
[09:59] <ogra_`> that works here
[10:00] <ogra_`> we just need to configure the device now
[10:01] <ogra_`> root@ubuntu-phablet:/# nmcli d|grep rndis
[10:01] <ogra_`> rndis0     802-3-ethernet    connecting (getting IP configuration)
[10:01] <ogra_`> NM enven tries to configure it on the phone side
[10:01] <ogra_`> the indicator just doesnt show that
[10:03] <asac> ogra_`: i am sure infra folks will need clear instructions what to do on host side as well
[10:03] <asac> (e.g. how to setup dnsmasq and potential iptables etc.
[10:03] <asac> )
[10:03] <ogra_`> asac, definitely
[10:03] <ogra_`> i just found a problem
[10:04] <ogra_`> seems on the jost side usb0 gets a new MAC every time it gets brought up newly
[10:04] <ogra_`> *host
[10:05] <ogra_`> that will make it hard to assign devices to usb NICs ... not sure thats an issue since you still have parallel adb access
[10:05] <ogra_`> (in case you want to ssh in via that device it will be hard to distinguish the diferent usb* devices)
[10:11] <didrocks> ogra_`: do you have any estimate how long building the image is taking?
[10:11] <ogra_`> didrocks, 50min to 1h
[10:11] <didrocks> ogra_`: ok, thanks :)
[10:11] <ogra_`> didrocks, plus several hours for the utah tests
[10:11] <didrocks> ogra_`: do we know how much?
[10:11] <didrocks> gema: ? ^
[10:12] <ogra_`> nope, not yet atm it took 3-4h or so i would guess  but i didnt check, just from my gut feeling over the last days
[10:12] <didrocks> ogra_`: ok, thanks for the estimate!
[10:12] <ogra_`> (might be faster if there are no manual interventions needed)
[10:13] <asac> ogra_`:probably a way to set the mac through some kernel magic?
[10:13] <ogra_`> asac, either that or we just work with fixed IPs from the bringup script
[10:13] <gema> ogra_`: several hours for the utah tests? what'd'ya'mean?
[10:13] <asac> ogra_`: NM supports setting custom NIC on
[10:14] <asac> MAC
[10:14] <asac> err flip that
[10:14] <asac> so it must be fairly straight forward
[10:14] <gema> didrocks: it all depends on how much handholding they need today
[10:14] <ogra_`> gema, after the image is on /pending it takes like 30min for them to start, then it takes a few hours until all tests are run and show up on the dashboard
[10:14] <gema> didrocks: we should start seeing results appear 15-20 mins after the images are there
[10:14] <ogra_`> at least it was like that for the past days
[10:15] <gema> ogra_`: I thought the delay we introduced was 10 mins
[10:15] <didrocks> gema: I mean, having all tests ran
[10:15] <ogra_`> i admit we didnt have a full automatic run yet
[10:15] <didrocks> not start but "end" :)
[10:15] <gema> didrocks: 2 hours top
[10:15] <Saviq> ogra_`, re: input issues https://bugs.launchpad.net/platform-api/+bug/1203698
[10:15] <ogra_`> gema, 10 mins until you start syncing, to give the publisher its time
[10:15] <ogra_`> gema, then the default tests start
[10:15] <gema> ogra_`: yep, then we get started
[10:16] <didrocks> gema: ok
[10:16] <ogra_`> which is about 20-30 min until they are done and show up on dashboard
[10:16] <gema> ogra_`: default doesn't take long, the test is seconds to 1 min, it is however long it takes to download image/provision
[10:16] <ogra_`> and then the single apps get tested ... havent looked how much these take but it is a while
[10:16] <gema> ogra_`: we've speed the dashboard syncing of smoke to every 15 mins
[10:16] <ogra_`> great
[10:17] <ogra_`> Saviq, oh, yeah, let me flash latest to check
[10:17] <ogra_`> sorry, your request kind of drowned in other stuff
[10:20] <davmor2> Saviq: I can still reproduce the app lens lockup on 19.1
[10:20] <Saviq> davmor2, yeah, we'll be investigating, but been unable to reproduce ;/
[10:22] <davmor2> ogra_`: this stuff re: image upgrades is that the new recommended way of upgrading to test the daily images?  I don't particularly want to be adding my contacts data each day :)
[10:22] <ogra_`> davmor2, no, its only there for testing yet ... but it will be the default in the future
[10:23] <davmor2> ogra_`: okay good.  which brings me onto how the images are coming along for today as we are popeyless
[10:25] <ogra_`> davmor2, not sure, if asac will approve releasing them ... it would be needed for the initial bootstrapping of the image based upgrade sruff
[10:25] <ogra_`> *stuff
[10:25] <ogra_`> (i pinged him above about that but have no answer yet)
[10:26] <asac> ogra_`: waiting for boston to wake up to align with those folks
[10:27] <ogra_`> asac, they are linkey better than the 16th one that current points to atm
[10:27] <asac> tvoss: https://bugs.launchpad.net/platform-api/+bug/1203698 something you know the answer to right away?
[10:27] <asac> (since its input)
[10:27] <asac> ogra_`: i cant proof that easily from looking at dashboard from 16th and yesterday
[10:27] <asac> 15th looked best yet :)
[10:28] <ogra_`> asac, well, indeed
[10:28] <asac> its not easy to say something is better ... i think some tests that failed on 16 succeeded on 15th
[10:28] <asac> err
[10:28] <asac> succeeded yesterday
[10:28] <asac> and vice versa
[10:28] <asac> total count looks worse today
[10:28] <davmor2> ogra_`, asac: please give me a ping when there is an image up for today then and I'll happily test it.  But I have a feeling I might have a lot on and miss the message else .   Many thanks :)
[10:28] <ogra_`> Saviq, just a sidenote, but i thought ricmm added a fix so that we dont need to stop the shell anymore
[10:28] <asac> davmor2: you can just test latest with phablet-flash --pending
[10:28] <Saviq> ogra_`, when testing shell, yeah we do :)
[10:29] <ogra_`> (doesnt make that bug invalid indeed, but less severe)
[10:29] <asac> davmor2: that will pull the image before the gate
[10:29] <Saviq> ogra_`, k
[10:29] <Saviq> ogra_`, how does it unlock the phone in that case
[10:29] <Saviq> ?
[10:29] <davmor2> asac: oh okay
[10:29] <ogra_`> Saviq, heh, dunno
[10:30] <Saviq> :)
[10:30] <ogra_`> i didnt know you restart the shell for testing itself
[10:30] <ogra_`> after ricmm's fix we shouldnt need to restart it for the autopilot app tests though
[10:32] <Saviq> ogra_`, only thing is you need to unlock the shell
[10:33] <Saviq> ogra_`, which either you hack in somehow ;) or we pilot the shell as well
[10:33] <ogra_`> yeah
[10:33] <tvoss> Saviq, looking at https://bugs.launchpad.net/platform-api/+bug/1203698
[10:33] <tvoss> Saviq, so the issue is that input does not propagate to apps if the shell is not running?
[10:33] <Saviq> tvoss, no
[10:33] <Saviq> tvoss, it doesn't propagate to apps *period*
[10:33] <Saviq> tvoss, if you trigger it
[10:34] <Saviq> tvoss, but it's tricky to trigger, as you need to start/stop shell as the first thing you do
[10:34] <ogra_`> Saviq, so i accidentially had the browser running before stopping unity8 ... now i have a completely hanging session
[10:34] <Saviq> tvoss, if you launch an app at any point before stopping unity8
[10:34] <ogra_`> (powerbutton only toggles backlight, no lock screen or anything)
[10:34]  * ogra_` reboots to test without running browser
[10:34] <Saviq> ogra_`, can't you start the shell?
[10:35] <Saviq> ogra_`, the browser will be stopped most probably
[10:35] <Saviq> ogra_`, but starting shell should bring everything back
[10:35] <Saviq> tvoss, the bug won't be triggered
[10:35] <Saviq> tvoss, it's some initialization issue - starting unity8 causes app mgr to do something in waiting for an app
[10:35] <ogra_`> Saviq, the shell is running, i brought the browser to the foreground, swiping from the left to get backj to the shell got me a hanging launcher and no reaction from the shell at all anymore
[10:35] <Saviq> ogra_`, can you please try reproduce and file bug if confirmed
[10:36] <ogra_`> indeed
[10:36] <ogra_`> let me try the actual testcase now :)
[10:36] <asac> ogra_`: did you drop the ball :)?
[10:37] <asac> ogra_`: if not you could reply with isntructions on how to get where you were to the mail thread
[10:37] <ogra_`> asac, on what of the 133423 things i have here on my desk ?
[10:37] <asac> so someone else might take over and finish
[10:37] <tvoss> Saviq, got it. Just wondering about the use case for the specific behavior you are requesting
[10:37] <ogra_`> :P
[10:37] <asac> ogra_`: no the networking
[10:37] <ogra_`> asac, no, but i promised Saviq a test before that came up, let me quickly confirm the bug
[10:37] <asac> kk
[10:38] <Saviq> tvoss, I'm requesting that input doesn't get lost: D
[10:38] <Saviq> tvoss, that a bad use case? :D
[10:38] <Saviq> tvoss, shell needs to be stopped at times for autopilot testing
[10:39] <Saviq> tvoss, if you do that before having launched an app in this ubuntuappmanager session
[10:39] <Saviq> tvoss, you don't have input for apps until you restart ubuntuappmanager
[10:39] <ogra_`> Saviq, hmm, no issues here, i cant reproduce (i have to stop the app before startign the shell, not sure ricmm did something different here)
[10:40] <Saviq> ogra_`, what app?
[10:40] <Saviq> ogra_`, don't start *any* apps
[10:40] <Saviq> ogra_`, reboot phone, stop shell, start app
[10:40] <ogra_`> calculator had input just fine without the shell
[10:40] <ogra_`> shell has input just fine after starting it anew
[10:40] <Saviq> ogra_`, you need to start the app from console
[10:40] <ogra_`> Saviq, thats what i did
[10:40] <Saviq> ogra_`, hmm interesting, I confirmed on two devices and dednick did, too
[10:40] <ogra_`> stop shell; start calculator ... claculator takes input just fine
[10:40] <ax562> hello
[10:41] <ogra_`> ... stop calculator, start shell, shell works fine
[10:41] <Saviq> ogra_`, yeah, shell works fine always
[10:41] <ogra_`> i can unlock without probs
[10:41] <asac> pitti: seems youi are interseted in how to improve our simulated device testing?
[10:41] <Saviq> ogra_`, yeah, that's shell
[10:41] <ogra_`> Saviq, are you properly running all this as phablet user ?
[10:41] <Saviq> ogra_`, but input doesn't ever get to apps after having triggered that bug
[10:41] <Saviq> ogra_`, yes
[10:41] <asac> pitti: did you get my thoughts on the android emulator? maybe you want to join those efforts?
[10:41] <ogra_`> and do you use --desktop_file_hint ?
[10:41] <asac> :)
[10:42] <Saviq> ogra_`, that's --pending, btw?
[10:42] <asac> pitti: or drive them :)?
[10:42] <ogra_`> Saviq, yes, 21th
[10:42]  * Saviq reflashes
[10:42] <ogra_`> phablet@ubuntu-phablet:~$ cat /var/log/installer/media-info
[10:42] <ogra_`> Ubuntu Saucy Salamander (development branch) - armhf (20130721)
[10:42] <asac> pitti: guess your invite is more about umock etc... :)... but still feels related enough
[10:44] <ogra_`> Saviq, btw ...
[10:44] <ogra_`> phablet@ubuntu-phablet:~$ time initctl start unity8
[10:44] <ogra_`> unity8 start/running, process 1480
[10:44] <ogra_`> real	0m12.217s
[10:44] <ogra_`> that really needs to become faster :)
[10:44] <Saviq> ogra_`, I know, with the exception that it doesn't matter much in real use ;)
[10:44] <ogra_`> it matters for boot time
[10:44] <ogra_`> which currently is 40sec without the shell
[10:45] <Saviq> ogra_`, which doesn't matter much in real phone use ;)
[10:45] <ogra_`> it adds up :)
[10:45] <Saviq> ogra_`, but yes, I agree - it's all about loading the scopes
[10:45] <ogra_`> well, i would prefer to not have more than 30sec until usable UI for release
[10:45] <ogra_`> even thought its not high prio, it puts a bad light on us
[10:46] <ogra_`> (and i know how much i personally curse android for taking ages to boot on planes where i *have to* shut down)
[10:49] <ogra_`> Saviq, ok, i can reliably reproduce the case where the shell hangs if there is a running app prior to stopping it ... it pretty much exposes exactly whats in the bug
[10:49] <ogra_`> seems theissue got flipped around now :)
[10:50] <Saviq> ogra_`, might be the same thing indeed
[10:50] <Saviq> ogra_`, but: I just flashed maguro; adb shell; sudo -u phablet -i; stop unity8; ubuntu-calculator-app
[10:50] <Saviq> ogra_`, input in apps gone
[10:50] <ogra_`> yeah, just that it now  happens if an app runs before ...
[10:51] <ogra_`> i dont see you using initctl
[10:51] <ogra_`> and i dont see you using --desktop_file_hint
[10:51] <Saviq> ogra_`, can't we `alias stop unitctl stop`? :D
[10:51] <Saviq> ogra_`, that might be a good point actually
[10:51] <ogra_`> heh
[10:51] <Saviq> ogra_`, it shouldn't be necessary when there's no shell
[10:51] <Saviq> ogra_`, but still valid bug
[10:51] <ogra_`> and the last command runs as root :)
[10:52] <Saviq> ogra_`, that was pseudo-bash
[10:52] <ogra_`> hmm, actually both do i think
[10:52] <pitti> asac: I didn't get your thoughts on the android emulator, no; does that include networking?
[10:52] <Saviq> ogra_`, none of them do
[10:52] <ogra_`> in the laine above they do
[10:52] <pitti> asac: yes, I had umockdev and the ofono modem emulator in mind
[10:52] <ogra_`> *line
[10:52] <Saviq> ogra_`, as that's not what I really executed - pseudo-bash
[10:52] <pitti> asac: depending on what you guys need to test
[10:52] <ogra_`> ok
[10:52] <ogra_`> well, as long as you are sure :)
[10:52] <asac> pitti: android emulator brings nice stuff like GSM/SIM mocking. .. os might even give us more features at lower levels than what you do
[10:53] <Saviq> ogra_`, let me try with the hint
[10:53] <pitti> asac: sounds interesting indeed
[10:53] <ogra_`> asac, we looked into that several times, its not distributable as package
[10:53] <asac> pitti: but yeah. seems you are not interested in the wider topic of moving to an emulator as our MAIN dev environment
[10:53] <asac> ogra_`: emulator itself?
[10:53] <ogra_`> it needs sun java packaged with it and has a good bunch of restrictions
[10:53] <ogra_`> asac, yes, you need the whole ndk
[10:53] <asac> thats fine i guess... as long as you can just install the sdk from android
[10:54] <asac> ogra_`: you say we couldnt even redistribute the binary?
[10:54] <pitti> asac: interested in the outcome, but I don't have experience in that area
[10:54] <ogra_`> sure, just saying we cant package or distribure it ourselves
[10:54] <pitti> asac: it would surely be interesting, of course
[10:54] <ogra_`> asac, yes, there are some limitiations
[10:54] <ogra_`> asac, the emu itself should work fine with touch though
[10:54] <asac> right
[10:54] <ogra_`> but you would have to pull it down from google
[10:55] <ogra_`> we were looking into having itt for our SDk before
[10:55] <asac> i dismiss the risk of emulatror not directlly distributable by us in some form for now (someone from legal should check)
[10:55] <Saviq> ogra_`, nope, --desktop_file_hint doesn't help
[10:55] <asac> yeah worst case you have a smart hack
[10:55] <ogra_`> Saviq, very weird
[10:55] <ogra_`> it totally works fine on maguro for me
[10:55] <asac> not best situation, but gives us a headstart while we try to figure if we can do something like that on our own
[10:56] <ogra_`> asac, there is someone trying to get the goldfish (qemu) emulator to work for us btw
[10:57] <ogra_`> but that hasnt all the nifty emulator bits like emulating GSM etc
[10:57] <asac> ogra_`: heard of that guy a few times. asked folks to embrance him and bring him here
[10:57] <asac> but that newver happened
[10:57] <ogra_`> he is on the ML
[10:57] <asac> ogra_`: goldfish is the architecture used by google emulator still
[10:57] <Saviq> ogra_`, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5900184/
[10:57] <asac> so if we have a goldfish image it can be run by their emulator
[10:57] <ogra_`> sergio helps him with questions all the time
[10:57] <asac> (thats what i understand)
[10:57] <ogra_`> yeah
[10:57] <ogra_`> prob is that CWM dropped emu support at some point
[10:58] <asac> so bring this guy here... if i dont see him talking here, he doesnt exist for us :)
[10:58] <ogra_`> so ML people dont exist for you ?
[10:58] <asac> in any case, we probably have to do this on our own if we don't want to risk delay
[10:58] <ogra_`> we have a ton of these :)
[10:58] <ogra_`> we shouldnt exclude community just because they dont like IRC
[10:58] <asac> if i want to plan a critical core roadmap piece, I cannot plan around them if i dont have IRC or something similar low ping medium
[10:59] <ogra_`> Saviq, !
[10:59] <ogra_`> Saviq, i start the app directly
[10:59] <asac> i dont exclude them. i just cant work with them on a crtiical core piece that needs to happen ASAP
[10:59] <Saviq> ogra_`, same thing
[10:59] <asac> if someone else does that and hides the risk from me thats good :)
[10:59] <Saviq> ogra_`, I just tried to use upstart to get closer to "the real thing"
[10:59] <asac>  s/hides/eliminates/
[11:00] <ogra_`> asac, well, i doubt it will happen soon, since someone would have to first fix CWM to support an amulator again
[11:00] <xnox> =/
[11:00] <asac>  s/hides/eliminates/
[11:00] <asac> ogra_`: whats CWM?
[11:00] <ogra_`> err
[11:00] <ogra_`> cyanogenmod
[11:00] <ogra_`> :)
[11:01] <asac> ogra_`: CWM dropped emulator support? my understanding is that emulator is properly supported upstream
[11:01] <ogra_`> (CWM i clockworkmod ... sorry i meant cyanogenmod indeed)
[11:01] <asac> maybe you dont need a CWM thing for that
[11:01] <ogra_`> Saviq, aha, now i can reproduce ... smells like a race
[11:01] <ogra_`> (since it worked all the tries before)
[11:02] <Saviq> ogra_`, mhm
[11:02] <ogra_`> asac, you need the android side built to run under goldfish
[11:02] <ogra_`> asac, and our android side is cyanogenmod
[11:02] <ogra_`> CM dropped support for that several releases ago
[11:03] <ogra_`> Saviq, so this time i didnt have input in the calc. but unity has it again after tsarting the shell
[11:03] <Saviq> ogra_`, unity always does
[11:03] <Saviq> ogra_`, apps won't
[11:04] <ogra_`> k
[11:04] <Saviq> ogra_`, not until you restart ubuntuappmanager
[11:04] <ogra_`> well, they did in all my former tests
[11:04] <Saviq> ogra_`, I mean, once you lost it, you need to kill ubuntuappmanager to get it back in apps
[11:04] <ogra_`> this was the first time it failed
[11:04] <Saviq> ogra_`, weird, it's 100% reproducible here
[11:04]  * ogra_` reboots again
[11:05] <asac> ogra_`: how much is CM different from upstream android?
[11:05] <asac> i mean the base
[11:05] <Saviq> on both maguro and manta
[11:05] <ogra_`> asac, dunno, thats a question for rsalveti and sergio
[11:05] <ogra_`> it shouldnt differ to much from ASOP ... but i doubt it is identical ...
[11:05] <ogra_`> you will surely need some patches on top
[11:07] <ogra_`> Saviq, works again ...
[11:07] <Saviq> ogra_`, your devices are special :P
[11:08] <ogra_`> Saviq, yeah, i like them :P
[11:08] <ogra_`> they never fail
[11:16] <asac> xnox: hey ... do you need help coordinating your android bit landings?
[11:16] <asac> xnox: feels like this involves landing a few pieces at same time if we dont want to regress our image building and dashboard results etc.
[11:18] <xnox> asac: i am rebuilding android in ppa at the moment, to include all the recovery bits that stgraber needs in the loop-mounted / image-based upgrades. then uploads into a ppa should be automated on daily basis / trigger. and in parallel rootfs builder needs code & unit-tests to pull images out of the ppa.
[11:18] <asac> xnox: pull images out of ppa?
[11:19] <xnox> asac: the android portions of the per-device zips and recoveries.
[11:19] <asac> xnox: thats ppa?
[11:19] <asac> archive would be much better
[11:19] <xnox> asac: at the moment yes, will be uploading into ubuntu-archive, after MIR/security review due to a lot of embedded copies of code.
[11:20] <asac> xnox: ok. that sounds all fine (even though i feel its odd that we prefer to pull from ppa over universe)
[11:20]  * ogra_` is still curious how you solved all the licensing :)
[11:21] <asac> xnox: what i would like to know though is what we ensure that the final landing will not break anything :)
[11:21] <ogra_`> must be a gigantic debian/copyright
[11:21] <ogra_`> asac, building the contents uses exactly the same runes jenkins uses for buildign the imgs
[11:21] <asac> xnox: not sure if you have thought about that... maybe we can join efforts of the system image update landing
[11:21] <asac> ogra_`:
[11:21] <asac> the android bit stuff?
[11:21] <xnox> ogra_`: yeah, that still needs updating.
[11:22] <ogra_`> asac, so i wouldnt fear anything to break
[11:22] <ogra_`> asac, yes, the android tree comes with a ton of different licenssses
[11:22] <asac> right. still, i would feel safer if we could ensure that we understand what the atomic flip switch is
[11:22] <xnox> asac: so far manual tests from the ppa are fine, the image names are mostly correct, such that potentially we could teach phablet flash to use those, and run the tests in parallel (or manually locally)
[11:22] <asac> and be prepared with a mitigation plan (e.g. backout etc.() in case something goes bad
[11:23] <asac> xnox: right. just wonder what the flip/switch is that will make your stuff replace our current solutionm... and if we can make that in a wahy that we can flip back in case we have unexpected issues
[11:23] <ogra_`> asac, backing out would have to happen in livecd-rootfs and cdimage at the same time then, we need to replace some code in both
[11:24] <asac> ok so we can make the livecd/cdimage thing our atomic handle for enabling and disabling this feature?
[11:24] <asac> that would be good i think
[11:24] <ogra_`> you wont mannage to do that with just flicking a switch ... there is a delay ... cdimage isnt packaged and changes affect it directly, while livecd-rootfs needs to go through the archive infrastructure once for a revert
[11:24] <asac> disabling/enabling being a simple commit/revert is also fine
[11:25] <asac> hmmmmmmm
[11:25] <asac> ogra_`: cant we have something to esily pin/downgrade to a better lviecd-rootfs version in case stuff goes crazy?
[11:25] <ogra_`> so at least one turnaround package run is required
[11:25] <xnox> well, we turn the feature on - proposed build happens, testing runs. if that doesn't work, we revert uploads/commits. Thus the cost of the exercise is a broken daily + respin on the day.
[11:26] <asac> yeah. just would prefer if the "going back to green" would avoid any kind of infrastructrue flakiness.
[11:26] <ogra_`> asac, livecd-rootfs is pretty fast (~1h) from upload to archive usually ... but that hour you have to wait
[11:26] <asac> otherwise you can end up in nasty firedrill situations
[11:26] <asac> etc.
[11:27] <asac> ogra_`: really feels like to far too much stuff needs to happen for a simple revert
[11:27] <asac> e.g. we depend on many pieces of infrastructure just to back something bad out
[11:27] <asac> but well... thats long term :)
[11:27] <ogra_`> asac, well, it is as it is ... packaged stuff needs to go through the infrastructture once to get a fix
[11:27] <ogra_`> wether thats a revert or a bugfix
[11:28] <asac> bwe have a working package in archive now
[11:28] <ogra_`> yeah
[11:28] <asac> we could just go back without rebuilding
[11:28] <asac> so it doesnt need to be that way
[11:28] <ogra_`> and to change it we need to do an upload
[11:28] <ogra_`> the livefs builders arent hackable ... the change needs to be in the package
[11:28] <asac> ogra_`: i understand, and thats the point i criticize... backing out/going back shouldn't require 1h of infrastructure hope and preying
[11:28] <xnox> ogra_`: can we build out of archive, as even yet another new type of an image? or is that will then require changes deployed to phablet-flash?
[11:29] <xnox> ogra_`: e.g. does phablet-flash has "use this url as flipped" option?
[11:29] <ogra_`> xnox, you can set up your own livefs builder locally, but thats quite some effort ... i did that recently, took me half a day to get all the structures right
[11:29] <asac> ogra_`: ok... can you check the networking thing again :) if i dont distract you more
[11:29] <ogra_`> its multiple stacked chroots with fixed pathnames
[11:30]  * asac goes into paperwork mode
[11:30] <ogra_`> asac, yeah, going back to it now :)
[11:30] <xnox> asac: ogra_`: switch one image type at a time? e.g. start with grouper, and then roll out others?
[11:31] <ogra_`> xnox, that would be waste and require a lot of extra work to even match and process subarches
[11:31] <ogra_`> i dont think 1h rollback time is to bad
[11:31] <ogra_`> we just need to make sure no builds happen during that hour
[11:31] <seb128> ogra_`, hey, do we know if our filesystem layout is defined somewhere (what partition we are going to have/use, if we have special directories for e.g video/music/photo, etc)?
[11:31] <seb128> or who would know about that
[11:31] <ogra_`> seb128, stgraber has it
[11:31] <seb128> ok
[11:32] <seb128> stgraber, let me know when you are up, I've questions about the fs layout/directories ;-)
[11:32] <ogra_`> seb128, i think we will just stay with android FS layout ... /system for the rootfs, /data for writable space
[11:32] <seb128> ogra_`, thanks
[11:32] <ogra_`> and /cache for image upgrades
[11:32] <ogra_`> but thats not the case yet :)
[11:32] <seb128> ok
[11:32] <seb128> I'm asking for the system settings info
[11:32] <ogra_`> and on the way towards it we will have loop mounted images
[11:33] <seb128> I need to display the disk size/place taken by Ubuntu/place taken by apps/free space
[11:33] <ogra_`> yeah, i know ... and it currently looks very odd :)
[11:33] <seb128> ;-)
[11:33] <ogra_`> die to looping bindmounts wedo
[11:33] <ogra_`> *due
[11:33] <ogra_`> its a bad hack :)
[11:49] <stgraber> seb128: I'm up (in London)
[11:49] <ogra_`> asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/5900295/
[11:49] <ogra_`> that works fine here
[11:50] <timp_> the phablet-test-run script always terminates with ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
[11:50] <timp_> ^any ideas what's wrong?
[11:50] <ogra_`> asac, the rest should be routing on the host (or if it is the same machine as the package proxy we just need to set http_proxy on cmdline)
[11:50] <seb128> stgraber, hey
[11:51] <stgraber> seb128: hello
[11:51] <seb128> stgraber, do you have details on the fs layout and do you know if we have special directories (like the xdg ones for music photo video)
[11:53] <stgraber> seb128: so the main things about our fs layout is we have all android partitions directly mounted at the root of the fs (/cache, /data, /system, /persistent, ...), on top of that we have /userdata which is the actual read-write parition
[11:53] <stgraber> in /userdata we then have system-data (writable config files for Ubuntu), android-data (what's mounted on /data) and user-data (mounted as /home)
[11:53] <stgraber> the rest is read-only at the exception of some paths being tmpfs (like /tmp)
[11:54] <stgraber> it's pretty easy to add extra persistent directories to system-data and for the user, I guess we just want to store in sub-directories of the home directory (which is already persistent by default)
[11:55] <stgraber> we also talked with lool and mfisch about a /customization (or similar) directory which would be read-only but provisioned by a separate tarball (separate from the common Ubuntu rootfs) so that carriers and OEM can ship customization there
[11:55] <stgraber> we don't have a specific layout defined for that directory though (and I don't really care what it ends up being, I'm just reserving the top level path)
[11:56] <ogra_`> stgraber, i think seb128 is mainly intrested in what he will get with something like df -h
[11:56] <seb128> stgraber, thanks for the details
[11:56] <seb128> but yeah, what ogra_`says
[11:56] <xnox> seb128: click packages api, should also say how much space is used by apps.
[11:56] <stgraber> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5900313/
[11:56] <stgraber> that's df -h + mount on one of the devices I have here
[11:57] <ogra_`> seb128, XDG dirs for user data will live in /home/$user (which in turn will live inside /data or /userdata in the end)
[11:57] <seb128> I basically need "disk space/ubuntu image size/free space/space used by apps|music|photos|videos"
[11:57] <seb128> hum
[11:57] <Laney> It sounds like for the last three you can use XDG dirs indeed
[11:57] <seb128> I think I should better wait for things to settle down a bit
[11:57] <stgraber> seb128: so I don't really know where those would be stored, my assumption was under /home/phablet/... so you'd just du -sch those
[11:58] <stgraber> unless we end up having system-wide content
[11:58] <ogra_`> right
[11:58] <seb128> stgraber, right, well I was also wondering if we plan specific dirs for e.g photo music video (like the xdg dir)
[11:58] <seb128> do you know who is deciding on that?
[11:58] <ogra_`> du -sch XDG_DIR_FOO|BAR|BAZ
[11:58] <stgraber> seb128: I don't know who's deciding that but it's not me. Using the standard XDG paths would make sense though
[11:58] <ogra_`> that should give you the numbers
[11:59] <ogra_`> i doubt we'll move away from xdg with that
[11:59] <seb128> ok, that makes sense
[11:59] <ogra_`> would be silly if we did and i'd surely veto it
[12:01] <ogra_`> (converged will want it for the desktop session too i guess)
[12:02] <ogra_`> sergiusens, see the pastebin at http://paste.ubuntu.com/5900295/ ... do you think we could have a tool inside phablet-tools to set this up ?
[12:04] <ogra_`> (full usb networking instead of just forwarding an ssh port)
[12:05] <ax562> so how is the ubuntu-touch front?
[12:05] <ax562> ubuntu os?
[12:06] <ax562> close to official release?
[12:06] <seb128> stgraber, so free space is basically available space on /userdata, and that's usable for click packages (e.g installing apps) and user datas?
[12:07] <ogra_`> yeah
[12:07] <seb128> ok, that makes sense
[12:07] <ogra_`> /system (teh rootfs) will be completely readonly anyway
[12:07] <stgraber> seb128: right, /userdata is our only writable partition, so that contains system settings, user settings, packages, user data, ...
[12:07] <seb128> thanks guys
[12:07] <seb128> do we plan for multiusers atm?
[12:07] <ogra_`> not sure if for 13.10
[12:07] <ogra_`> we surely have to for convergence
[12:08] <seb128> I guess when we do, each user is going to have its separate userdir
[12:08] <ogra_`> yeah
[12:08] <AlanBell> ax562: not yet, but watch http://www.ubuntu.com/ for an announcement of something in the next 24 hours or so
[12:08] <ogra_`> i think i saw mterry work on the first start wizardy thing
[12:08] <ogra_`> he should know if there are plans for adding users
[12:09] <seb128> mpt, ^ we should perhaps have a "space used by other users" in the design (not sure if the current designs are supposed to cover the multi user scenario)
[12:09] <xnox> seb128: so in the OOBE, we will have screen to set hostname & user human name. multiuser is only targetted for 14.04, not for 13.10
[12:09] <ogra_`> yeah, i would have thought so
[12:09] <ogra_`> that will get really hairy
[12:10] <seb128> xnox, ok, it would still be good to plan for the multiuser case where we can though
[12:10] <ogra_`> getting all the android groups right the user needs to be in etc
[12:11] <xnox> seb128: i presume, after initial user is setup, in the system-settings one can add new users, then go to lock-screen (lightdm) flick to the other user, login, and the new user is logged in. I think there are _some_ oobe steps for new user (demo + some settings)
[12:11] <xnox> seb128: i guess other users usage will be "$home/../ - your_own usage"
[12:16] <ax562> is there somewhere where i can reference what works and doesn't
[12:19] <seb128> xnox, yeah, seems about right
[12:19] <davmor2> seb128: Ref multiuser, there is the login for tablets which is multiuser but there isn't for phone.  As I understood it phone was to be a single user login device, but I don't work on those teams or make those decisions, thats just what I picked up from the uds videos
[12:20] <seb128> davmor2, well, the system info dialog is likely to be similar on the tablet, so we need to handle the "space used by other users" bit in any case
[12:24] <davmor2> seb128: Isn't each user meant to have an encrypted partition for home will that have an effect on access or not?
[12:25] <seb128> davmor2, it might, but we don't need access... "other user" is basically "disk space - system - own user - free space"
[12:26] <seb128> davmor2, if /home is its own partition it's even easier, it's space of that one - your own user
[12:26] <xnox> davmor2: if/when we use encryption it will be .ecryptfs, and one can still directly look up disk usage, on per user basis. df /home/.ecrypts/$user
[12:27] <asac> ogra_`: do you know what appened to todays imgage?
[12:27] <asac> oh
[12:27] <asac> nevermind
[12:27] <davmor2> xnox: ah okay cool
[12:28] <davmor2> seb128: Indeed I was just curious if it had been thought of.
[12:31] <seb128> stgraber, oh, other question ... do you have the date when the current system image got installed recorded somewhere (where installed includes upgrades, e.g when you did update your phone the most recently)
[12:35] <stgraber> seb128: we have a log file in /cache/recovery but it's probably not a good idea to parse that ;)
[12:35] <seb128> stgraber, can you make the info available in a reliable way somewhere?
[12:35] <ogra_`> sergiusens, did you see my ping above ? could we ship something that does http://paste.ubuntu.com/5900389/ so we could have full networking via USB working ?
[12:36] <stgraber> seb128: So the only place where we could write that from the upgrader is on the data partition, so I could have a /userdata/.last_update file containing the "date -u" output. The obvious problem being that the recovery doesn't do NTP so we're not guaranteed to have a valid timestamp at all
[12:37] <ogra_`> sergiusens, in phablet-tools that is
[12:37] <ogra_`> (and lesss ugly indeed, this is just a prototype)
[12:37] <sergiusens> ogra_`: did not see it, that should probably one more switch in the network indicator for dednick :-)
[12:37] <sergiusens> ogra_`: but yes we can add it to phablet-tools
[12:37] <ogra_`> nah, no UI options
[12:37] <ogra_`> its just for people that want to fiddle with a networked device even though there is no wlan
[12:38] <seb128> stgraber, could be look at the mtime of some directory or file on disk?
[12:38] <ogra_`> for tests, autopilot etc
[12:38] <seb128> be->we
[12:38] <asac> man ... apt-get dist-upgrade on my x86 is just a crawling snail :)
[12:38] <stgraber> seb128: nope, everything comes from tar, so everything has the timestamp from the buildd
[12:38] <asac> and i am sure that the triggers stuff doesnt work... i see it reconfigures initramfs at least for the third time right now
[12:38] <ogra_`> asac, so let stgraber work on image based upgrades for desktops next ;)
[12:38] <asac> yeah :)
[12:39] <asac> not saying next
[12:39] <ogra_`> asac, some triggers need to force it
[12:39] <stgraber> ogra_`: the spec is perfectly applicable to desktop/server/... so long as you don't want to install extra packages ;)
[12:39] <seb128> stgraber, you said you have a log file, does it get events only for updates?
[12:39] <ogra_`> to make sure if you crash you still sre bootable
[12:39] <ogra_`> *are
[12:39]  * asac flashes latest --pending to run some autopilot tests
[12:39] <stgraber> seb128: sadly, no, it gets updated everytime the user boots to recovery, so that happens when upgrading but also during factory reset or manual boot of the recovery environment
[12:40] <seb128> hum, k
[12:40] <stgraber> seb128: and that file is created by the recovery environment so we can't really trust the timestamp either :(
[12:41] <ogra_`> asac, gema, so i answered that mail, but it seems there are CCs that require moderation .... if you want it to end up on the respective lists i guess some moderator needs to let it through
[12:41] <asac> ogra_`: ack
[12:41] <asac> ogra_`: ue leads moderation?
[12:41] <asac> i hope not
[12:41] <seb128> stgraber, can we make the upgrader dump a file in the userdata part and then have something on boot that "check the file and dump a timestamp somewhere if the file exists, then rm the file"?
[12:41] <ogra_`> yeah, and a qa list
[12:41] <asac> really
[12:41] <asac> interesting
[12:42] <seb128> stgraber, that would give us the date of first boot in the upgraded system at least
[12:42] <asac> thought that would let everybody canonical in by default
[12:42] <ogra_`> "qa-team-bounces"
[12:42] <stgraber> seb128: yep, we could do that, we'd still need to figure out exactly when we have reliable time on the phone and get an upstart event for that
[12:42] <ogra_`> ChickenCutlass, broochacoo !
[12:42] <ogra_`> (or so)
[12:42] <stgraber> seb128: as it usually depends on getting data connectivity to access ntp
[12:43] <seb128> stgraber, we could teach ntpdate to send a signal when it success to sync the time
[12:43] <stgraber> seb128: (or we can just not care and hope that the phone clock is vaguely correct, which should be the case unless you let it drain entirely)
[12:43] <seb128> stgraber, but yeah, as a first approximation, saying that the clock is right should be ok
[12:44] <seb128> stgraber, the design has a day granularity, so we don't even care of timezones, offsets, etc
[12:44] <AskUbuntu> Does Ubuntu touch OS uses Compiz to perform animations | http://askubuntu.com/q/322975
[12:44] <stgraber> seb128: ok, what's easiest for you, having a pre-generated string in the file or just an empty file and you look at the mtime?
[12:44] <seb128> AskUbuntu, no it doesn't
[12:44] <seb128> stgraber, looking at the mtime seems easier than having to parse a string
[12:45] <stgraber> ok, I'll just add a "touch /data/.last_update" to the upgrader then, that'll make a file show up at /userdata/.last_update on the booted system
[12:45] <seb128> stgraber, looks good to me, thanks!
[12:49] <stgraber> sergiusens, rsalveti: Here's a patch to add a small feature for seb128, please apply to git, no need to kick a build though, it's not urgent (and pointless until we're actually ready to mark a daily build as current): http://paste.ubuntu.com/5900454/
[12:51] <sergiusens> stgraber: ok
[12:51]  * sergiusens looks
[13:06] <TTT> hi, there is someone online?
[13:07]  * husnainlatif is online
[13:07] <TTT> hi husnainlatif
[13:08] <husnainlatif> hi TTT
[13:08] <seb128> stgraber, oh, other question ... do you plan to work on an UI to check for system updates/install those?
[13:08] <TTT> can you tell me if someone have try to install "ubuntu touch" on an chines tablet?
[13:10] <husnainlatif> TTT,  i haven't. don't know bout others.
[13:11] <TTT> i've an "pipo M9" tablet with an 3188 rockchip processor an i don't know if "ubuntu touch" will be compatible with this processor
[13:20] <ogra_`> sigh, why dont people stay aroudn for a bit when asking on IRC
[13:22] <nerochiaro> oSoMoN: i'm trying to run the tests on the device, i run phablet-test-run -i and I think it managed to successfully complete, but when i run "./phablet-test-run notes-app-autopilot notes_app" i get an error message saying it can't connect via ssh "ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host". any ideas ?
[13:22] <nerochiaro> oSoMoN: i'm following bill's email instructions
[13:38] <oSoMoN> nerochiaro: install openssh-server on the devices
[13:38] <oSoMoN> -s
[13:38] <nerochiaro> oSoMoN: that's what the -i option is supposed to do, no ?
[13:39] <ogra_`> nerochiaro, i get the same btw
[13:40] <ogra_`> (trying the camer app tests)
[13:40] <oSoMoN> nerochiaro: no, it doesn’t, see my answer to Bill’s e-mail
[13:40] <ogra_`> oSoMoN, can we pull it in (and uninstall it at the end of testing if thats desired)
[13:41] <oSoMoN> ogra_`: that’s a question for sergiusens I guess
[13:41]  * ogra_` was assuming phablet-test-run would "just work"
[13:42] <ogra_`> if we cant pull it in it should at least echo a note to the console that i cant miss as a tester
[13:42] <sergiusens> so everyone on the camera-app right now?
[13:42] <ogra_`> sergiusens, well, i tried to replicate what asac tests and my tests never ran with the above error
[13:43] <sergiusens> ogra_`: I'm running now
[13:44] <nerochiaro> oSoMoN: ok, installed opessh-server through phablet-network-setup -i, then i ran again the script to run tests on the device and i get this: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5900623/
[13:44] <asac> ogra_`: you need to wipe or move your home elsewhere
[13:44] <asac> i am pretty sure
[13:44] <sergiusens> nerochiaro: -i only works if you have a pub key that can be copied over
[13:44] <ogra_`> asac, no, you need to manually install openssh-server it seems
[13:45] <nerochiaro> sergiusens: i think i do
[13:46] <stgraber> seb128: barry has a work item to implement a basic UI on top of our DBus API, I think the current plan is to hack system-settings to have it do that until we get a spec from design
[13:46] <asac> ogra_`: that happens by phablet-network-setup -i for me
[13:47] <oSoMoN> nerochiaro: you need to install notes-app-autopilot on the device… use the -p option to phablet-test-run
[13:47] <asac> if you dont run that before you start the tests
[13:47] <asac> then thats the reason
[13:47] <asac> ogra_`: ^^
[13:47] <seb128> stgraber, we have space for an update panel in system settings ;-)
[13:47] <ogra_`> asac, right, but i dont run that (why should it, my network works)
[13:47] <barry> stgraber, seb128: yes, the plan is to shame design into providing us with something much better by my crappy but functional ui ;)
[13:47] <seb128> barry, let me know if you need help for that part, we can help with the UI
[13:47] <ogra_`> asac, and if the tests need it phablet-test-run should simply do that
[13:47] <seb128> barry, oh, you have one? feel free to merge propose it against system-setting, we can review it ;-)
[13:48] <barry> seb128: fantastic, thanks.  i'm sure i'll take you up on that.  i'll probably start looking at it today
[13:48] <barry> seb128: no, not yet ;)
[13:48] <asac> ogra_`: that ist he script that preps the stuff
[13:48] <asac> ogra_`: someone decided that part of network is setting up ssh
[13:48] <ogra_`> asac, yes, but why cant phablet-tests-run no do that part ?
[13:48] <nerochiaro> oSoMoN: ok, it runs the tests
[13:49] <asac> ogra_`: i am not here to answer those questions. i am just saying that the approach to reproduce lab results is to use it before running the tests
[13:49] <asac> because thats what the lab runs
[13:49] <ogra_`> asac, imho running there tests should be transparent for endusers
[13:49] <seb128> barry, I can do the system settings side for you if you want, at least add a template of UI and backend to talk dbus
[13:49] <asac> phablet-tools is owned by your team btw :)
[13:49] <ogra_`> s/there/the/
[13:49] <ogra_`> asac, i know
[13:49] <asac> ogra_`: we need a single way to do it, yes.
[13:49] <seb128> barry, so you just have to file the cpp bits to do the actual work then
[13:50] <asac> in case of there is a dispute about different results,  we have to fall back to whatever the lab does
[13:50]  * rsalveti reads backlog
[13:50] <barry> seb128: that would be great.  anything to jump start this would be greatly appreciated.  i should have a new systemimage package updated in the next couple of hours which will have the dbus api
[13:51] <seb128> barry, ok, let us the UI side that ... but it would be good if you could chase the design guys to get a design/mockup for what the UI should look like
[13:52] <barry> seb128: for now, we just want something quick and dirty.  we're doing some follow up but there aren't too many cycles available to design something wonderful yet.  we want to at least demo upgrading via ui in the next couple of days, even if it isn't pretty (we can do it from the cli, but even a minimal ui would be better)
[13:53] <barry> seb128: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-system-image/+bug/1201801
[13:53] <seb128> barry, well, at least having an idea of the functional bits would be useful
[13:54] <seb128> barry, we have a "check for updates" button on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AboutThisDevice#Phone
[13:54] <barry> seb128: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-system-image/ubuntu-system-image/client/view/head:/systemimage/dbus.py
[13:54] <seb128> barry, I can plug that to a dbus call if that's all you need
[13:54] <seb128> but you probably want some Ui to display during download/install etc
[13:55] <barry> seb128: i think that's all we need for now.  we'll do progress etc. as refinements later.  my thought: click check for updates.  if one is available, the button turns to "Download Updates".  if that succeeds, the button turns to "Restart to Install Updates"
[13:55] <barry> super simple
[13:56] <seb128> barry, ok, get us the dbus api and we can handle the system settings side for you
[13:57] <barry> seb128: wonderful, and feel free to bounce anything back to me.  the link above has the current dbus api, and i'm working this (my) morning to get the packaging updated and landed.
[13:57] <barry> seb128: i'll ping you when it's uploaded
[13:58] <seb128> barry, ok, great, thanks
[14:02] <mhall119> tsdgeos: good morning
[14:03] <tsdgeos> mhall119: morning
[14:03] <mhall119> tsdgeos: I was thinking, can't we just re-use the existing poppler packaging with the latest upstream trunk?
[14:03] <tsdgeos> mhall119: maybe/probably
[14:04] <mhall119> Chocanto: do you want to take a stab at that?
[14:06] <mhall119> as long as it's in our PPA and has a version number that is lower than what the next official release will be, we shouldn't have any trouble
[14:17] <lenz> Hey guys!
[14:17] <lenz> Anyone there?
[14:17] <lenz> Ubuntu Edge Phone gets released today it seems?
[14:17] <lenz> Not only the software, but a
[14:17] <lenz> lso the hardware?
[14:19] <ogra_`> lenz, you'll see soon :)
[14:21] <lenz> I'm excited, cant wait.
[14:22] <lenz> I've been looking for a decent smartphone a year now
[14:22] <lenz> I didn't like Android very much and I dont want to be locked in MS or Apple.
[14:23] <lenz> Ubuntu Edge seems perfect.
[14:26] <Chocanto> mhall119: Hey ! Yes I think, I'm not really good at packaging but I can always try
[14:30] <lenz> D
[14:33] <lenz> I can't believe no one is talking about Ubuntu Phone....
[14:35] <wilee-nilee> lenz, the touch is the edge OS thats all that is talked about here
[14:35] <kenvandine> anyone know what's up with the smoke testing?
[14:35] <kenvandine> friends-app is still failing, but passes for me on the device
[14:35] <iBelieve> lenz, that's probably because most of the people here work at Canonical and know what is going to be revealed, so they can't talk about it.
[14:35] <kenvandine> and it is definately getting the fixed code
[14:36] <kenvandine> didrocks, ^^
[14:41] <mhall119> kenvandine: hey, I saw a notification from Friends for the first time yesterday :)
[14:42] <kenvandine> yay :)
[14:42] <mhall119> I was all "WTF is this?  Oh wait, that's a notification bubble!"
[14:42] <kenvandine> :-D
[14:42] <timp_> :)
[14:42]  * mhall119 loves it when things unexpectedly start to work
[14:51] <didrocks> kenvandine: I think it's more for gema
[14:51] <kenvandine> gema, ^^ :)
[14:51] <kenvandine> didrocks, thx
[14:52] <gema> kenvandine: might be that you are using a different version from the one on today's image
[14:52] <kenvandine> oh, maybe it's the lock screen?
[14:53] <gema> can you install today's image and check?
[14:53] <gema> kenvandine: it might be that as well
[14:53] <kenvandine> i did, it passes without the screen locked
[14:53]  * kenvandine tries with the screen locked
[14:53] <gema> kenvandine: ack
[14:53] <kenvandine> yup... fails
[14:53] <kenvandine> so how do we force the screen unlock?
[14:54] <rsalveti> ogra_`: asac: sergio is looking into the getting goldfish to work as well
[14:55] <rsalveti> but you know, we didn't get much done because of the firefigthing
[14:56] <rsalveti> xnox: how is the vendor separation coming along? were you able to create a different package/zip for that?
[14:56] <xnox> rsalveti: yes, in saucy new queue.
[14:56] <xnox> rsalveti: and in the ppa, used during the build as android-src-vendor package.
[14:56] <rsalveti> xnox: cool, so how did you create the vendor stuff?
[14:56] <rsalveti> cool
[14:57] <rsalveti> xnox: just trying to think from a new port perspective, on how to get such vendor package in place
[14:57] <xnox> rsalveti: it simply ships the vendor/$(!cm) in a deb package, and at build time, I just copy them back into the tree.
[14:57] <rsalveti> so we can also start building some other images for the ports
[14:57] <rsalveti> oh, right
[14:57] <rsalveti> so not post-inst
[14:58] <rsalveti> was thinking if we could do a post-inst solution
[14:58] <xnox> rsalveti: if a new port, ships them under /usr/src/android/vendor/* then it's all good, and will be used. If pre-installed or as a new dependency.
[14:58] <rsalveti> right
[14:58] <rsalveti> that's fine, was also thinking about a way that we could create a custom vendor.zip, that could also get installed via recovery
[14:58] <rsalveti> as then the porters could have such zip somewhere else in the internet
[14:58] <rsalveti> as we can't distribute them
[14:59] <rsalveti> that way we could build the base image (without blobs), and distribute that over our infra
[14:59] <xnox> rsalveti: well, the problem is that some of the vendor bits add compile/link targets, so it's not just an overlay. And I consulted with slangasek about it, and he said "put it all into multiverse/restricted" and pull in as a build-dep. It's not like those binary blobs change, or change often, or can be modified.
[14:59] <rsalveti> right, but we can only distribute the nexus based blobs
[14:59] <rsalveti> so not that useful for porters
[15:00] <xnox> rsalveti: I also wish something like that. The way I invisioned it, was like so:
[15:00] <rsalveti> xnox: do you know which vendor adds a custom make target?
[15:00] <rsalveti> besides copying the blobs
[15:00] <xnox> rsalveti: anything tegra/nvidia and a few others.
[15:00]  * rsalveti looks
[15:01] <xnox> rsalveti: i think serg* had a look and ogra_` , as to what does more than copy blobs around.
[15:01] <xnox> rsalveti: one could do two builds: android-$device-opensource android-$device-blobs, with the later doing a diff against the former. And then have wrapper scripts to fetch that and update the .zip / .img files as needed.
[15:02] <xnox> rsalveti: we do want to easily update .zip & .img, as we'd like to "update" .zip from new kernel.deb  / libhybris.deb / platformapi.deb
[15:02] <xnox> rsalveti: that's something I will work on next, after I land this package into the archive.
[15:04] <rsalveti> xnox: right, that's nice
[15:04] <rsalveti> yeah, will check how the vendor stuff can be better handled as well, will do a galaxy s2 lite port
[15:09] <mhall119> and we're live!
[15:09] <xnox> \o/
[15:10] <rsalveti> \o/
[15:10] <_5m0k3> Any place to view a stream?
[15:10] <mhall119> _5m0k3: I meant ubuntu.com
[15:11] <_5m0k3> Got it now.  Had to clear cache
[15:12] <mhall119> dang, 7.5k already
[15:12] <_5m0k3> Indeed
[15:13] <ogra_`> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge
[15:15] <Chocanto> 600$ ? Arg :x
[15:15] <mhall119> Chocanto: only today, it'll be more tomorrow
[15:16] <Chocanto> mhall119: Yes I read it ^^' But I think it is relatively high..
[15:17] <ogra_`> Chocanto, for a desktop computer in your pocket ?
[15:17] <wilee-nilee> shoot no more diamonds in my pocket with the edge. ;)
[15:17] <mhall119> Chocanto: it's a lot of money, but look at the specs
[15:18] <mhall119> wilee-nilee: the plight of the first-worlders
[15:18] <wilee-nilee> lol
[15:18] <mhall119> :)
[15:19] <wilee-nilee> just on the soles of my shoes now
[15:19] <Chocanto> Oh yes, effectively with these specs and the fact we can use it as a desktop computer... the price is justified
[15:21]  * xnox http://youtu.be/JQCP85FngzE
[15:21] <xnox> this is ubuntu edge ^
[15:22] <Saviq> spread the word! http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge :)
[15:25] <_5m0k3> Dock included?
[15:46] <mhall119> _5m0k3: no, we have to leave something for the accessories manufacturers :)
[15:48] <_5m0k3> Wise choice.  So I'll have to have my own bluetooth keyboard, mouse and hdmi monitor?
[15:54] <_5m0k3> The software story video has some interesting tidbits.  It refers to ubuntu touch as Ubuntu Mobile.  Is this a rebranding, or just a generic term?
[15:55] <rickspencer3> _5m0k3, I wouldn't read too much into that
[15:55] <rickspencer3> but how cool was ogasawara__ in that video?
[15:56] <_5m0k3> She did an excellent job. She mentions ubuntu for android is fully functional, today.  I guess functional does not imply publicly available?
[15:59] <rickspencer3> _5m0k3, U4A requires that the android OS be modified in small, but important ways
[15:59] <rickspencer3> so, she was correct :)
[15:59] <rickspencer3> and since canonical will be making the phone, they can ensure that it is modified as such :)
[16:02] <_5m0k3> I understand that, but I'm talking about on current commercial hw (n4, for example).  I could take AOSP and make the necessary changes, but the u4a .apk is still not available
[16:03] <xnox> ogasawara: you rock =)
[16:07] <davmor2> ogasawara: you need to get outside now,  All the compliments is gonna make your head swell to the point you can't get out the doors ;)  So I'll throw mine in too,  Good job, well present, well announced and the n4 was held well too   :)
[16:17] <_5m0k3> I guess if the sapphire crystal display shatters, you may have lost your phone, but you still have a decent computer
[16:19] <mhall119> _5m0k3: I think you'd be hard pressed to shatter it
[16:26] <cyphermox> rsalveti: confirming, maguro is initializing bluetooth fine now, it seems
[16:26] <cyphermox> I rebooted, I get bluetooth back..
[16:26] <cyphermox> just need to clean up and apply on today's image to see if it sticks
[16:26] <rsalveti> cyphermox: awesome
[16:48] <Philsy> hello all
[16:49] <fabian__> Hi! Is docking and running Unity already possible on a Nexus 4 with the current build of Ubuntu Touch?
[16:49] <Philsy> I was wondering if I could get some help on installing Ubuntu Touch on my HTC EVO 4G LTE
[16:49] <ogra_`> fabian__, nope, thats an april feature
[16:49] <fabian__> ogra_`: I see, thanks!
[16:50] <ogra_`> you can make calls, browse the web, send SMS and use 3G data today
[16:50] <ogra_`> (and a lot of other nice smartphone stuff)
[16:51] <ogra_`> fabian__, http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge btw
[16:52] <fabian__> ogra_`: Yes, I've seen that one on hacker news an hour ago :)
[16:55] <Philsy> are there any good guides and downloads for installing ubuntu touch on a htc evo 4g lte?
[16:55] <lool> ricmm: thanks for picking up https://code.launchpad.net/~saviq/qtubuntu/fix-reversed-arguments/+merge/174313
[16:55] <ogra_`> Philsy, check onm the devices wikipage if it is already ported
[16:55] <ogra_`> !devices | Philsy
[16:55] <Saviq> lool, shame it took 10 days...
[16:56] <lool> cjwatson: the mp went in an hour ago
[16:56] <fabian__> ogra_`: So the docking means connecting mini-USB to HDMI and using bluetooth keyboard and mouse?
[16:56] <ogra_`> fabian__, or a dicking station :)
[16:56] <ogra_`> *docking
[16:56] <fabian__> :)
[16:57] <fabian__> ogra_`: Is it a uniformed connector?
[16:58] <cjwatson> lool: cool, thanks
[16:58] <ogra_`> fabian__, well, i would expect some MHL-HDMI standadized thing
[16:59] <xnox> fabian__: well microUSB supports sending HDMI signal, with the right hardware.
[16:59] <ogra_`> yeah, thats MHL
[16:59] <xnox> =))
[16:59] <ogra_`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_High-Definition_Link
[16:59] <ogra_`> for details
[17:00] <fabian__> ogra_`: great, thanks for the infofeed!
[17:02] <rtg> rsalveti, why are the tags the same for cm-10.1.1 and cm-10.1.2 in git://phablet.ubuntu.com/CyanogenMod/android_kernel_samsung_tuna.git ?
[17:03] <rsalveti> rtg: just because we didn't have any kernel changes in there, 10.1.2 was a stable release, and then all repos got the tag
[17:03] <rsalveti> as you can then force that tag in the manifest itself, and download all the android repos based on that specific tag
[17:03] <rtg> rsalveti, so where are he patches you've requested coming from ?
[17:03] <rsalveti> rtg: from 10.1, but the final release
[17:04] <rsalveti> we were based on 10.1 already, but we got a dev snapshot
[17:04] <rtg> I thought we started out with the kerenel from cm-10.1 ?
[17:04] <rsalveti> right, but no the final cm-10.1
[17:04] <rsalveti> that's why I sent the patches to update the tree there
[17:05] <rsalveti> *not
[17:05] <rsalveti> rtg: http://phablet.ubuntu.com/gitweb?p=CyanogenMod/android_kernel_samsung_tuna.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/cm-10.1
[17:06] <rsalveti> that currently contains all patches for the released cm-10.1
[17:07] <rtg> rsalveti, right. so I'm trying to figure out why what I started with and cm-10.1.0 are so different. They don't have the same common ancestor.
[17:09] <rsalveti> rtg: hm, they shouldn't, check the phablet-10.1 branch
[17:09] <rsalveti> they are common at least until the cm-10.1-M1 tag
[17:14] <tedg> greyback, What are you thinking for notification of application startup?  I think that e-mail thread died.
[17:14] <Philsy> ogra : Thanks
[17:16] <greyback> tedg: no need to worry, for now shell will be doing the launching, so it knows what's starting
[17:16] <tedg> greyback, Hmm, not really.  I mean, it won't handle things like apps launched from the lock screen.
[17:16] <tedg> greyback, Or if another app uses an URL.
[17:18] <greyback> tedg: you have valid points. Let's have a quick meeting to just get this decided then.
[17:18] <greyback> tedg: would you mind scheduling it please? Don't make it too late for me :) Bring ricmm along too
[17:19] <tedg> greyback, Do I need to invite Saviq as well?
[17:19] <greyback> tedg: sure, his input would be important
[17:19] <greyback> tedg: is tomorrow ok, I'm nearing my eod
[17:19] <greyback> and I've plans this evening :)
[17:19] <tedg> greyback, Yup, just touching base on topics on first day back :-)
[17:20] <greyback> tedg: ok cool
[17:21] <nik90> tvoss: ping
[17:23] <om26er_> mfisch, ping
[17:23] <tedg> greyback, ricmm, Saviq, in your mailbox
[17:23] <mfisch> om26er_: pong
[17:24] <om26er_> mfisch, from the last talk we had, you said that pressing the power button overrides everything. but we need a reliable way to turn on the screen when we run our autopilot tests are run
[17:24] <mfisch> om26er_: will you be pressing the power button?
[17:24] <greyback> tedg: thanks!
[17:24] <om26er_> s/are run//
[17:25] <om26er_> mfisch, it seems there are cases where people run tests on their personal phone and tests fail for them
[17:25] <mfisch> om26er_: that's documented in our test plan
[17:25] <mfisch> "don't press the power button"
[17:25] <mfisch> actually it's also a second test case
[17:26] <om26er_> mfisch, so there cannot be a way to turn on the screen that way ?
[17:43] <nathaneltitane> hello guys/girls, I am looking for info in regards to having the ubuntu on android install (the 'dock to switch' ubuntu for android)
[17:46] <nathaneltitane> anyone??
[17:47] <iShotz> Hi, how can I install Ubuntu Touch onto my Motorola XOOM? the wiki page has a broken download
[17:47] <iShotz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices/wingray This one
[17:47] <ogra_> iShotz, contact the porting person
[17:47] <iShotz> Who is he?
[17:47] <ogra_> no idea
[17:48] <pmcgowan> nathaneltitane, the ufa build is not available atm
[17:48] <ogra_> but his (or her) contact data should be on the page
[17:48] <genii> It's smartboyhw
[17:48] <iShotz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Install will this wiki page work?
[17:51] <nathaneltitane> pmcgowan: but is the project dead or still wip
[17:52] <pmcgowan> nathaneltitane, its very alive, it needs a few tweaks to work properly on the hw, graphics config and such not generally open
[17:52] <ogra_> nathaneltitane, http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge
[17:52] <ogra_> petty alive :)
[17:52] <nathaneltitane> pmcgowan: good :)
[17:52] <nathaneltitane> ogra_: i've checked it out
[17:52] <ogra_> *pretty even
[17:53] <iShotz> Canonical made some indiegogo thing today for the Ubuntu Edge phone
[17:53] <iShotz> 32mil they wanted
[17:53] <avoine> hello!
[17:53] <iShotz> Hey
[17:53] <nathaneltitane> ogra_: but i don't want to substitute android for UT
[17:53] <nathaneltitane> i want the underlying ubuntu
[17:53] <ogra_> iShotz, 1/2mil they got in 3h ;)
[17:54] <ogra_> nathaneltitane, i dont understand ... there is a normal ubuntu rootfs
[17:54] <avoine> someone knows if there is a way that I add a arm build on my ppa?
[17:54] <iShotz> orga, damn, I remeber when someone linked it on /g/ it was at 10k
[17:54] <ogra_> :)
[17:54] <iShotz> I'd donate buy money is tight as I'm only 14
[17:54] <iShotz> *but
[17:55] <nathaneltitane> ogra_: say i already have android or CM installed on my phone
[17:55] <ogra_> iShotz, ask for is as a christmas present or some such .)
[17:55] <nathaneltitane> i want to install the ubuntu rootfs and keep android as main... when docked will it switch to ubuntu as designed to and shown in the vid preview?
[17:55] <ogra_> nathaneltitane, ah, got it
[17:55] <iShotz> Hurr
[17:55] <iShotz> I'm saving for a new PC
[17:55] <iShotz> I got £100 in budget
[17:55] <iShotz> So far
[17:55] <iShotz> :(
[17:56] <iShotz> I want about £400 for a decent PC
[17:56] <iShotz> 300 if i get desperate
[17:58] <iShotz> Right, did a bit of look around
[17:58] <iShotz> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-touch-preview/daily-preinstalled/current/ Found these
[17:58] <iShotz> Would they work for my XOOM?
[17:58] <iShotz> Does the whole Saucy thing matter?
[17:59] <nathaneltitane> so? anyone?
[17:59] <pmcgowan> nathaneltitane, I think the main issue is that the default is to mirror android to the monitor
[17:59] <pmcgowan> not sure if you have the source code to control that
[18:00] <pmcgowan> ne?
[18:04] <nathaneltitane> pmcgowan: ??
[18:05] <iShotz> Anythin about me using this Saucy thing?
[18:05] <pmcgowan> nathaneltitane, sorry that was a typo
[18:06] <nathaneltitane> alright. i don't want to be pushy, but does anyone have a clear status of the features and timeframe??
[18:06] <pmcgowan> nathaneltitane, it basically requires a manufacturer to support it
[18:06] <pmcgowan> so it can work on Edge if we get to make that
[18:07] <_5m0k3> nathaneltitane: As demonstrated in the software video, Ubuntu for Android is fully functional today.  The Ubuntu VP of Engineering said today that the Android OS must be modified slightly for it to work.  I'm not sure if they plan on unveiling that process soon and then releasing U4A to the public or what.  I sure hope so
[18:08] <iShotz> What dose this mean? ubuntu_chroot to edit /usr/bin/ubuntu-session and set GRID_UNIT_PX=10
[18:09] <mhall119> iShotz: the Ubuntu SDK uses "grid units" for setting the size of components, and the mapping between grid units and physical pixels is determined based on the kind of device and screen
[18:09] <iShotz> uh
[18:09] <mhall119> you can change that mapping value by setting the GRID_UNIT_PX environment variable before starting the Unity session
[18:09] <nathaneltitane> _5m0k3: :)
[18:09] <iShotz> I uh...
[18:09] <iShotz> What
[18:10] <nathaneltitane> _5m0k3: now that sounds like news to me. granted, it sounds promising enough
[18:10] <mhall119> iShotz: basically it changes the size of components (like buttons, or the launcher, etc) on the screen
[18:10] <iShotz> How can I use it? my install tutorial tells me i need to usei t
[18:14] <nathaneltitane> on a similarly related basis
[18:15] <nathaneltitane> can i dd ubuntu onto an sdcard and have it boot from there for my asus tf700t?
[18:17] <ogra_> have you checked the ubuntu touch deices page ?
[18:17] <ogra_> *devices
[18:18]  * ogra_ thinks he saw a few transformer ports 
[18:18] <ogra_> !devices
[18:22] <nathaneltitane> point is not to flash my tf
[18:22] <nathaneltitane> i want it on sd
[18:22] <ogra_> yeah, that wont work
[18:22] <ogra_> (patches accepted though :) )
[18:23] <_5m0k3> iShotz: I haven't tried on an image in a while, but if I recall correctly, changing that 14 to a 12 for grouper will enable side stage on nexus 7
[18:24] <iShotz> Huh
[18:25] <avoine> is this the right channel for question about cross-compiling?
[18:26] <avoine> and packaging for arm device
[18:39] <mhall119> avoine: #ubuntu-devel might provide better help
[18:40] <avoine> ok, thanks
[18:40] <avoine> hehe the channel title say they don't
[18:42] <mhall119> avoine: oh, for apps yeah
[18:42] <mhall119> but thats where all of our packaging experts reside
[18:42] <avoine> ok ok ok
[18:42] <avoine> yeah I forgot to precise I was looking for apps help
[18:43] <avoine> ah there is #ubuntu-app-devel
[18:58] <foldingcookie> sorry if this is the wrong channel to ask, but does anyone know where I could find out if the ubuntu edge is going to have open-source drivers?
[18:59] <wilee-nilee> foldingcookie, The touch is the edges OS
[18:59] <fmunozs> foldingcookie,  maybe it's too early to know, but try asking in the comment section of indiegogo
[19:07] <foldingcookie> fmunozs: hm, hard to tell if my comment got through as apparently you must be a backer to comment publicly
[19:08] <tetris4> wasnt Ubuntu going to use the android drivers?
[19:09] <pmcgowan> foldingcookie, it will depend on the components selected and how the vendors for those deal with drivers
[19:09] <pmcgowan> some do not yet open source their stuff
[19:09] <wilee-nilee> not sure every smart phone has the same innards so who knows.
[19:09] <cyphermox> rsalveti: sergiusens: review for https://code.launchpad.net/~mathieu-tl/phablet-extras/brcm-rename/+merge/176270 ?
[19:09] <foldingcookie> yes, surely--but if Ubuntu intends to advance freedom, they'll make it a priority to negotiate contracts that allow them to open-source the drivers
[19:10] <foldingcookie> (hopefully this isn't all off-topic for this channel, sorry if I'm interrupting people doing real work atm)
[19:10] <wilee-nilee> foldingcookie, Uh, ubuntu installed stock is fully open source.
[19:10] <foldingcookie> right
[19:10] <fmunozs> foldingcookie is talking about the drivers, which are probably not
[19:11] <wilee-nilee> freedom is an illusion anyway, but what ever floats your boat.
[19:11] <rsalveti> cyphermox: only problem currently is that we only have one rootfs for all the devices
[19:11] <fmunozs> I think its too early to know, there is no information about what SoC will be used
[19:11] <cyphermox> foldingcookie: at the moment, we all have to deal with the drivers and devices how they are ... so sometimes it's binary drivers yeah
[19:11] <cyphermox> rsalveti: oh?
[19:11] <rsalveti> cyphermox: so how to deal with package specifics in there?
[19:11] <cyphermox> urgh
[19:11] <cyphermox> going to think about it
[19:12] <foldingcookie> cyphermox: yeah, I just wanted to know if ubuntu's forays into hardware were intended to help out with that situation or not
[19:12] <cyphermox> they all have the same start and stop stanzas so I guess I'll make another job to start the subjobs based on model
[19:12] <pmcgowan> foldingcookie, we certainly lobby that every opportunity with the vendors, we already interact with most
[19:12] <rsalveti> cyphermox: yeah, something like that
[19:13] <rsalveti> you can check the device type via getprop
[19:13] <cyphermox> foldingcookie: that's the kind of stuff that is normally discussed with vendors, as pmcgowan says
[19:13] <cyphermox> rsalveti: right
[19:13] <rsalveti> and then just start whatever device specific rule you have there
[19:13] <cyphermox> rsalveti: with some delay to make sure the property service is really up
[19:13] <cyphermox> yup yup
[19:13] <fps> will there be devices where the whole software stack will be open source?
[19:13] <rsalveti> cyphermox: you don't need any delay for get
[19:13] <cyphermox> ok, going to fix that up, and reflash all to test
[19:13] <fps> including all drivers?
[19:13] <rsalveti> cyphermox: it'll parse the file even if the init system from android is not yet ready
[19:13] <cyphermox> rsalveti: yeah, I've seen the property service not being up?
[19:13] <cyphermox> oh, it's just a file?
[19:14] <rsalveti> it tries to use the service if available, if not it just parses the file
[19:14] <cyphermox> ok
[19:14] <cyphermox> rsalveti: I'll still need /factory to get on the maguro though
[19:14] <rsalveti> well, we do have a file, which is the base props that the android init service reads when starting
[19:14] <rsalveti> that's why you need the service to use setprop though
[19:14] <cyphermox> sure
[19:14] <rsalveti> indeed
[19:15] <rsalveti> we can fix that so it can be mounted automatically
[19:18] <davmor2> mhall119: https://bugs.launchpad.net/music-app/+bug/1203848
[19:18] <annerajb> hello!
[19:19] <annerajb> great job on ubuntu edge just contributed 600$ towards it!
[19:19] <Noize> Will Ubuntu-Touch be available for the Next Gen. Nexus 7 ?
[19:23] <cyphermox> rsalveti: which prop should I be looking at? ro.product.device ?
[19:23] <rsalveti> cyphermox: yes
[19:24] <mhall119> davmor2: you can't start playing again after unlocking the device and switching back to the music app?
[19:25] <nawk> hello
[19:26] <davmor2> mhall119: it start the track playing again after a pause and play but the music player seem to not make any noise.  So I think what is happening is the audio control has been taken away from the app
[19:31] <nawk> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge
[19:31] <nawk> I am curious, why would anyone (apparently there's 24, atm) choose the $830 option when there's a $600 (one-day-only option)
[19:31] <nawk> ?
[19:33] <ogra_> because they like to donate to the project ?
[19:33] <mhall119> ^^ that
[19:35] <nawk> just to show their generous/altruistic nature, they can't wait after the 24 (for-one-day-only) period. ^^
[19:39] <xnox> nawk: some made a mistake and have too much money =)
[19:39] <nawk> xnox: well, I actually wish they would include a 'quantity' field for the $600 perk/option
[19:40] <nawk> ;-)
[19:40] <Michael____> hi
[19:42] <mhall119> hello
[19:42] <annerajb> nawk: i wondered the same thing lol
[19:43] <nawk> annerajb how many are purchasing mate?
[19:43] <annerajb> nawk: oh i was referring to the 24 people buying the 830$ perk
[19:44] <Michael____> guys i'm having abit of a problem and looking on the ubuntu touch page it sugested coming here for help.
[19:47] <nawk> The only reason why I am purchasing this thing is b/c of its limited availability. That said, man if this thing turn out of be a piece of junk I am so gonna be kicking myself.
[19:48] <nawk> s/of be/to be/
[19:49] <annerajb> nawk: well i had a evo4g since it came out and been looking for a upgrade i think the specs are really good so as long as i can still use android and boot to the desktop ill be happy since this may replace my laptop for web browsing and basic file editing stuff.
[19:49] <nawk> annerajb, there aren't really any specs atm, it's not even finalized right now
[19:50] <nawk> but Matt sounds like he's gonna be packin it up
[19:50] <nawk> with  a lot of goodies
[19:50] <annerajb> nawk: there is a section called technical specs on the ubuntu edge indie go go page.
[19:57] <nawk> annerajb right, I missed that section.  After a review of those specs,  it's actually not all that impressive.
[20:02] <ogra_> nawk, huh ?
[20:02] <ogra_> it is laptop specced HW in your pocket
[20:02] <ogra_> show me anotrher phone with 128G local diskspace and 4G ram
[20:08] <nawk> ogra_ tbo, from a phone/multi-purpose embedded user's pov, local storage has never been a major concern.
[20:09] <rsalveti> but the idea is to also use it as a real computer, that's why a bigger storage
[20:09] <ogra_> right
[20:09] <ogra_> hwo much storage does your desktop have ?
[20:09] <annerajb> nawk: i dont think that's the market the edge is aiming thought. but your statement is true a regular user (me) hasnt been bothered by the phone local storage space.
[20:09] <ogra_> (and have you checked how much of it you use regulary)
[20:10] <nawk> annerajb, absolutely. it is evidently reflected in sales.  Ppl always go for the lowest-capacity model.
[20:11] <nawk> (be it the galaxy Note, iPhone, what have  you)
[20:11] <ogra_> they all arent designed to run a full desktop
[20:12] <ogra_> the idea of the converged device is to replace all your machines and just have docks for different purposes
[20:12] <ogra_> and all your data locally without NSA intercepting your data access ;)
[20:13] <ogra_> (even with full device encryption)
[20:14] <nawk> atm, I am happy with my Note II coupled with a foldable full-sized solid keycaps keyboard (http://www.ownta.com/geyes-gk-308e-enhanced-edition-foldable-bluetooth-keyboard-for-mobile-phones-and-computers.html)
[20:16] <ogra_> nawk, well, you are free to not buy one (unlike these other people that spent already 1.2mio in 5h)
[20:16] <nawk> ogra: as for full desktop, there are many solutions that would provide you full desktop experience. e.g. vnc to a virtual server.
[20:16] <ogra_> LOl
[20:16] <ogra_> right
[20:16] <nawk> ogra_, what are you talking about? I just said I will buy several. :-)
[20:17] <ogra_> oh :)
[20:17] <ogra_> heh
[20:17] <nawk> mainly because for its exclusivity.
[20:17] <ogra_> ++
[20:18] <ogra_> so then you will see the difference ... lets talk again in may ;)
[20:18] <nawk> In fact, I want this thing to kickass, so I can make a killin chop'in it to folks in Hong Kong. Hahah
[20:19] <ogra_> it will kick ass ... so badly ... everyone will envy you
[20:19] <ogra_> be sure
[20:19] <annerajb> nawk: just remember to buy the 600$ and not the 830$ one lol
[20:22] <nawk> annerajb, seriously, if they want to hit the 32M mark, they should really do a second (or even third) round of $600 Perk.
[20:22] <nawk> I suspect it is likely they will have to do that sometime before the deadline, because it's a major booster.
[20:24] <timp> nawk: is that even possible on igg?
[20:24] <timp> it wouldn't be an introductory price anymore if it is repeated
[20:25] <nawk> timp. desperate measures at desperate times. lol
[21:06] <keithzg> So, contemplating doing the crazy thing and backing/buying an Ubuntu Edge, but there's no mention of which 3G frequencies it supports. Hmm.
[21:07] <Noskcaj> keithzg, I would assume all of them, but your area might have LTE/4G already
[21:07] <keithzg> Noskcaj: My carrier only supports AWS 3G.
[21:07] <keithzg> so if it isn't 1700/2100 WCDMA then it'd be useless as a cellphone for me.
[21:08] <Noskcaj> keithzg, I don't really know, i doubt anyone does. So if you get one, you might have to change plans
[21:08] <keithzg> naw, you've convinced me then
[21:08] <nawk> LTE isn't really (part of) 4G, is it?
[21:08] <keithzg> I won't bother shelling out $600 for something that might not even work on my carrier
[21:08] <tassadar_> I would guess it doesn't support anything yet - probably only design of that thing is done
[21:08] <tassadar_> you can get refund in 28 days after you receive it, by the way
[21:09] <keithzg> tassadar_: Hmmmm.
[21:09] <keithzg> Well, screw it, might as well then.
[21:09] <pmcgowan> I expect it will have 4G LTE data and GSM/WCDMA for voice, that would be the norm most places
[21:10] <keithzg> pcmgowan: yeah, but which frequencies? That's the huge, huge issue.
[21:10] <tassadar_> they'll probably try to support as many as possible gsm/cdma standards
[21:10] <pmcgowan> the LTE thing is a bit dicey sicne hte implementatons vary
[21:10] <pmcgowan> right
[21:10] <pmcgowan> keithzg, buy one then ask the question for the faq!
[21:10] <tassadar_> *as many gsm/cmd standards as possible (whoa that was weird sentence)
[21:12] <keithzg> pmcgowan: Well, I did just buy one, heh, where would I actually ask a question for the FAQ? The comments link is predictably bloated and noise-filled.
[21:13] <Noskcaj> nawk, In some countries, them mean the same thing. i don't really understand
[21:13] <pmcgowan> oh not sure but congrats
[21:13] <pmcgowan> keithzg, I'll try to get a clarification added if there is one
[21:14] <keithzg> nawk: AT&T and Verizon (with T-Mobile then joining in) successfully perverted the meaning of 4G. Technically it should only apply to LTE and other competing (there aren't any, though) technologies.
[21:15] <T|ASK> Anyone bought the UbuntuEdge?
[21:16] <keithzg> T|ASK: Yup, just did, because I am a crazy person ;)
[21:16] <popey> ali1234: T|ASK quite a lot of people it seems
[21:18] <T|ASK> I would like too, but I can't without paypal :(
[21:18]  * keithzg sees an open device, throws money at it ;) (sadly the Jolla pre-orders were only for Europe, and this one it's unclear if my Canadian carrier would be supported, so I make continue to be thwarted and have to stick with my N9)
[21:19] <GeniusWork> Hi all
[21:19] <GeniusWork> I have one question
[21:19] <GeniusWork> In this part Alternatively, if you are just building an image for an already supported device, you can specify the -v switch:
[21:19] <jashsu> keithzg: depends on who you ask. the ITU's definition of 4G didn't include LTE, only LTE-Advanced
[21:19] <pmcgowan> keithzg, did your ead the answer to What countries and mobile networks will support the Edge?
[21:19] <T|ASK> Can I fund it with two separate fundings?
[21:19] <jashsu> naturally due to industry pressure that stance has since changed
[21:19] <GeniusWork> Does it mean pre supported by CM or Ubuntu Touch??
[21:19] <T|ASK> Paypal has this magical 500$ cap
[21:20] <keithzg> pmcgowan: Yup. Still leaves it entirely ambiguous if my carrier would be supported, sadly.
[21:20] <pmcgowan> ok
[21:20] <keithzg> jashu: Fair point.
[21:20] <T|ASK> lets say I fund it twice with 300$ would this actually make it possible to get one?
[21:20] <keithzg> *jashsu, I mean
[21:21] <T|ASK> not sure how indiegogo handles this
[21:21] <sergiusens> GeniusWork: it means for the devices supported in ubuntu, i.e.; mako, maguro, grouper, manta
[21:21] <GeniusWork> Ok thanks trying to build for yuga :)
[21:21] <GeniusWork> Still reading procedures
[21:22] <jashsu> this list may help: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices
[21:22] <GeniusWork> So i use this " phablet-dev-bootstrap [target_directory]" ??
[21:23] <T|ASK> I wonder they have no Direct CC payment
[21:23] <GeniusWork> I know will use mako base
[21:23] <savagejen> So can any of the ubuntu touch interfaces be used on a laptop with a touch screen?
[21:23] <savagejen> like the fancy pinch stuff
[21:25] <pmcgowan> savagejen, yeah 13.10 has pretty good multitouch support and the new touch apps can run there as well
[21:26] <savagejen> pmcgowan, so adding the phablet-team ppa and then installing certain packages ought to do it, right?
[21:26] <pmcgowan> savagejen, to get the apps you cna just install from the repo
[21:26] <pmcgowan> the new shell is not ready for desktop yet
[21:27] <savagejen> which repo?
[21:27] <pmcgowan> saucy
[21:27] <savagejen> ... ok so just moving to saucy will give me the touch interface?
[21:27] <pmcgowan> the current shell and X already has multitouch
[21:27] <savagejen> I am on raring and get some touch screen functionality, but not the fancy pinch gestures
[21:28] <pmcgowan> going to saucy you can get the apps
[21:28] <savagejen> well ok I am willing to go to saucy... why not
[21:28] <pmcgowan> but yeah, not too much used pinch gestures in the desktop
[21:29] <savagejen> so the pinch gestures don't just work with every app?
[21:29] <tedg> sbeattie, Hey, I'm a bit confused.  Is the expectation that click package hooks don't get a parameter?
[21:29] <tedg> sbeattie, Or it it something like ./hook <app id> ?
[21:30] <sbeattie> tedg: correct, no parameter. at least for system hooks.
[21:31] <tedg> sbeattie, So then we're expected to update the overall status at that time.  i.e., the symlinks vs. reality.
[21:31] <sbeattie> yes
[21:31] <tedg> okay, seems a bit weird.
[21:31] <tedg> But not a blocker :-)
[21:31] <sbeattie> hehe
[21:32] <popey> hmm, phablet-flash is failing for me...
[21:32] <popey> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5901997/
[21:32] <nawk> keithzg, in that case, I was wrong; LTE *is* a 4G technology.
[21:33] <sbeattie> tedg: I sort of agree, but I see where cj watson's coming from on having the hook catch up to the state of the world.
[21:34] <pmcgowan> savagejen, the app needs to support the gesture where it makes sense, like photos and webpages
[21:34] <savagejen> pmcgowan, I see.
[21:34] <savagejen> pmcgowan, I have a Lenovo Yoga, which is a laptop that converts into a tablet mode
[21:35] <keithzg> nawk: Indeed; unfortunately, marketing by carriers has really muddied the terminology and conceptions (US carriers, having rolled out use of the 4G term for what were actually enhanced 3G systems before they had LTE rolled out, now are saying LTE and acting as if it's distinct...sigh)
[21:35] <savagejen> pmcgowan, so I have been itching to run it as a dual mode tablet ubuntu and laptop ubuntu
[21:35] <savagejen> pmcgowan, and it was not obvious to me how I could make that happen
[21:35] <pmcgowan> savagejen, I see, we are not "quite" there yet with true tablet mode
[21:35] <pmcgowan> but be interested to see how the touch apps work there
[21:36] <pmcgowan> I suspect pretty good
[21:36] <savagejen> pmcgowan, well let me update to saucy
[21:36] <savagejen> is there anything else I need to install?
[21:36] <pmcgowan> very good
[21:36] <pmcgowan> just the apps you want should be it
[21:36] <savagejen> ok
[21:36] <nawk> keithzg: mmm... I understand umts is a core 3g technology, can you give me one example of a competing technology?
[21:38] <T|ASK> anyone payed with direct cradit card payment for the phone? Do I need an indiegogo account to be able to do so?
[21:38]  * popey deletes and re-downloads
[21:39] <GeniusWork> Guys if I'm porting to non supported device should i use this " phablet-dev-bootstrap [target_directory] "
[21:39] <nawk> T|ASK, You need a Paypal account.
[21:39] <GeniusWork> ??
[21:40] <T|ASK> nawk: Really? No workaround possible?  That makes no sense imho :(
[21:40] <keithzg> nawk: EDGE and CDMA2000 are other 3G technologies. But "compete" is an iffy term to use there. Most carriers that ever used EDGE later upgraded to UMTS, which generally means WCDMA.
[21:40] <timp> I don't think you *need* a paypal account
[21:40] <nawk> I tried to checkout earlier, and it says that any donation over $500 needs to be done via Paypal
[21:41] <timp> you are forward to paypal when you pay, but there you have the option to proceed by entering your credit card info without having a paypal account
[21:41] <sergiusens> GeniusWork: you can use it withough a -v and then breakfast your device and start modifying from there
[21:41] <keithzg> nawk: The first major upgrade to WCDMA was HSPA, and then later came HSPA+. It was during the HSPA+ rollouts that carriers started abusing this and calling it 4G, even though it's a subset of UMTS which is by definition 3G AFAIK.
[21:42] <timp> ah you are right.
[21:42] <T|ASK> timp: That's what I thought, too. But in the terms it's written >500$€Y is the limit
[21:42] <timp> if you want to pay >$500 you need a paypal account
[21:42] <T|ASK> timp: and paying two times 300$?
[21:42] <T|ASK> I mean do that add up later on?
[21:42] <nawk> T|ASK sure, you won't get the phone haha
[21:42] <keithzg> nawk: Depending on how you look at it, WiMAX could be looked at as a UMTS competitor or a 4G-aspirant. But mostly it's just dead ;)
[21:43] <timp> T|ASK: I don't know. Why is there this limit for you? I just paid the whole amount at once using paypal
[21:43] <T|ASK> timp: I have no PP account and never will.
[21:43] <savagejen> I wonder what the dock for the edge will be like
[21:44] <savagejen> because I would still prefer a physical network connection when docked
[21:44] <timp> T|ASK: ah. now I understand your $500 limit
[21:44] <T|ASK> timp: you payed via PP or using the credit card via PP guest?
[21:44]  * keithzg would prefer to have a network connection to his cellular carrier ;) yes, still going on about that, heh. (e-mailed the contact address with the question)
[21:45] <keithzg> I hope it's an OLED screen of some variety; the always-on display of the N9 is extremely nice, especially once customized to display current weather and etc.
[21:45] <nawk> I didn't proceed to purpose yet because by paying with my CC, I will be subjected to a 3% cross-border fee.
[21:46] <GeniusWork> sergiusens: Thanks
[21:47] <nawk> keithzg thank you for clarifying that for me, you've been real kind.
[21:47] <timp> T|ASK: do you have an indiegogo account? When trying to contribute, there is a message that you get "personalized options" if you log in
[21:48] <timp> T|ASK: I paid via paypal, and paypal takes it from my cc
[21:48] <timp> T|ASK: so I didn't have the issue that you have now
[21:48] <keithzg> nawk: No problem. I have all this normally useless information rattling around in my head, I'm relieved when I can actually spit it back out usefully :)
[21:49] <T|ASK> timp: and you logged in with your PP account right?
[21:49] <nawk> keithzg: WiMax is dead? I thought it was supposed to be a killer connectivity with insane speeds.
[21:49] <timp> T|ASK: yes.
[21:49] <timp> perhaps the payment options can be configured by the project owner
[21:50] <T|ASK> so much trouble just to fund something :(
[21:50] <nawk> keithzg: I highly doubt it's really gonna have all the "cutting-edge" hardware. Companies simply aren't gonna give away a decade-worth of research for free, as much as we like everything to be open and free.
[21:52] <nawk> keithzg: Nonetheless, product exclusivity is still a great fundraiser.
[21:52] <keithzg> nawk: In theory, yeah, WiMAX is great and all. But LTE seems to have won that race for a variety of reasons (some technical, some compatibility, some quasi-political), and Sprint (the only carrier in the US that tried WiMAX) has dropped  WiMAX and is moving over to LTE for their 4G network going forwards.
[21:54] <keithzg> nawk: AMOLED screens can be fairly cheap, it's mostly at higher resolutions that *OLED has been lagging behind and hence extremely expensive for the same resolution. 720p should be doable; then oh, the glorious blacks! And the power saving!
[22:09] <solstag> Hey, anyone know if there is still see kind of changelog between dailies as there was in the '-preview' era?
[22:10] <rsalveti> solstag: we're integrating that this week
[22:10] <solstag> rsalveti: ah, cool! thanks ;)
[22:10] <rsalveti> as we're pushing it for all the ubuntu images, and not only touch
[22:11] <solstag> oh, even nicer
[22:24] <k1l_> is there a channel for the ubuntu edge?
[22:29] <savagejen> I had heard a rumor that ubuntu-touch wouldn't use the software center. Is that true?
[22:29] <popey> k1l_: this is good enough i think
[22:30] <k1l_> popey: ok. wanted to ask if its considered to put induction charging into the edge like the nexus4 and some nokias (or the old palm/hp) got
[22:32] <T|ASK> Ok, I give up on funding the Edge
[22:32] <popey> k1l_: nothing in the plan
[22:33] <T|ASK> If they don't offer a payment option without PP account it's their fault
[22:34] <k1l_> popey: ok :/
[22:38] <solstag> T|ASK: it used to be that in indiegogo you could pay through paypal without having a paypal account
[22:44] <k1l_> what about the ubuntu4android demoed with the nexus4. is that available and what hardware do i need besides the BT keyboard and mouse?
[22:51] <solstag> T|ASK: Oh, I see it's not the case for this one, because of the value involved. Very unfortunate :P Well one can always create an account with a fake email, use it for this single thing, and then delete it, I guess. Painful.
[22:52] <jashsu> quite annoying they didn't use kickstarter
[22:52] <jashsu> only draw of indiegogo is the flexible funding option
[22:54] <jashsu> kickstarter also doesn't process the transaction until after the funding is successful-- at best it's annoying for indiegogo to basically hold the funds interest-free for 30 days
[23:01] <popey> rsalveti: i am seeing bug 1199914 that pmcgowan also saw. any logs you want me to get off it?
[23:02] <rsalveti> popey: no, that's due a race when initializing the services
[23:02] <popey> ok
[23:02] <popey> so just reboot it?
[23:02] <rsalveti> if that doesn't get fixed with the android-upstart bridge, then we need to look further
[23:02] <rsalveti> yeah
[23:02] <popey> ok
[23:02] <popey> ta
[23:02] <rsalveti> almost 2m
[23:02] <popey> yeah
[23:03] <T|ASK> solstag: Thanks for the reply. It's sad that they simply don't offer direct CC or BTC :)
[23:25] <harrycarry250> wasssup
[23:26] <gnufs> excited!
[23:26] <popey> ☻
[23:31] <Joe_B> Any chance of getting Jono to do a reddit AMA for the edge?
[23:31] <barry> stgraber: finally got a system-image 0.7 uploaded.  it has LP: #1202915, LP: #1192585, and LP: #1202283
[23:32] <Joe_B> I understand those can provide some valuable publicity for crowdfunding campaigns?
[23:59] <mhall119> Joe_B: even better, I think Mark is going to do one