[02:39] <MrGarlic>  To all those complaining about the current lovely weather in Britain I say the following: boo to you sirs, boo to you madams, boo to you gender non-binary people.
[04:17] <jenny_> yo
[07:50] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[07:55] <marcushaslam> hi
[07:56] <brobostigon> hi marcushaslam
[07:57] <marcushaslam> brobostigon: hi marcushaslam
[07:57] <brobostigon> :)
[07:57] <marcushaslam> marcushaslam: hi even
[07:57] <marcushaslam> :)
[07:58] <brobostigon> hi brobostigon :)
[07:58] <marcushaslam> marcushaslam: brobostigon: hi marcushaslam
[07:58] <brobostigon> lol.
[08:27] <MooDoo_> morning all
[08:27] <brobostigon> morning MooDoo_
[08:29] <mungbean> that was an expensive beer...
[08:29] <mungbean> woops wrong channel :D
[08:29] <mungbean> or rather i was replying to a 3 day old comment
[08:37] <dwatkins> I do that a lot, forget I've scrolled-up in irssi.
[08:37] <MooDoo> lol
[08:38] <mungbean> my employer has decided to replace 1300 windows xp desktops with windows 8
[08:38] <mungbean> failsome
[08:38] <MooDoo> better than xp....
[08:38] <mungbean> wrong asnwer :P
[08:38] <mungbean> of course win7 was the one they needed
[08:39] <dwatkins> windows 8 with start8 isn't so bad.
[08:39] <MooDoo> machines come pre built with win8
[08:39] <dwatkins> ultimately, Windows 7 is probably fine for a corporate environment that requires windws-based apps, though. I'm surprised there's been enough time for a company to evaluate Windows 8.
[08:39] <mungbean> but the decision making process was not based on anything concrete, rather an airy assumption that students would come to uni with win8 on all their ipads, android tabs and laptops in various states of crustiness
[08:40] <mungbean> regardless of whether win8 is actually usable (it is not)
[08:40] <MooDoo> waht you actually mean is ms told the uni you can have a windows license for .5p a machine ;)
[08:40] <mungbean> oh they sold their soul a couple of years ago
[08:41] <mungbean> since then , the move away from open source has got millions in contractors, downtime and VM sprawl
[08:41] <mungbean> and licences
[08:41] <dwatkins> if all the tools are web-based, the OS is less important
[08:41] <dwatkins> if anything requires IE6, then the network is already a failure ;)
[08:45] <MooDoo> you're just going to have to work your ass off fixing all the c**p
[08:45] <mungbean> not me, some other poor buggers...actually rich buggers cos they will increase their contractor army
[08:46] <MooDoo> yup
[08:46] <mungbean> earning approx 3x what us munters earn
[08:46] <mungbean> hey ho
[08:46] <dwatkins> fixing or just explaining how the start menu works?
[08:46] <mungbean> got that monday feeling
[08:47] <arc__> how do i reinstall grub
[08:49] <dwatkins> arc__: this might help, or ask on #ubuntu - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2/Installing#Reinstalling_GRUB_2
[08:50] <arc__> ok i got help form #ubuntu
[08:50] <dwatkins> I had to do this the other day, there's a GUI-based automated tool, too, which is handy
[08:50] <dwatkins> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Boot-Repair
[08:51] <dwatkins> I was able to run it from a boot CD, and it fixed everything with little intervention.
[09:18] <JamesTait> Good morning all, happy Pi Approximation Day! :-D
[09:20] <mungbean> lol
[09:20]  * DJones rounds pi to 3
[09:20] <DJones> Then eats said apple pi
[09:20] <MooDoo> is that approximate?
[09:20] <MooDoo> lol
[09:21] <mungbean> my son (3) made a new word yesterday. what's that? a hexagon...correct. what's this (show a quarter circle segment of pie): a quartagon
[09:25] <SuperMatt> that's quite cool
[09:25] <SuperMatt> he's obviously very logically minded
[09:26] <mungbean> yes
[09:26] <mungbean> scarily so
[09:26] <SuperMatt> what actually is the name for a quarter circle segment?
[09:26] <SuperMatt> and arc?
[09:26] <SuperMatt> I think it's an arc
[09:26] <SuperMatt> *an
[09:26] <mungbean> an arc is only the outer bit
[09:27] <SuperMatt> slice?
[09:27] <popey_> morning
[09:27] <SuperMatt> morning
[09:27] <MooDoo> arrived ok then popey ?
[09:27] <mungbean> in 3d it is a wedge
[09:28] <popey> ya
[09:28] <MooDoo> good good
[09:28] <popey> been up for ~29 hours
[09:28] <MooDoo> ouch
[09:28] <popey> probably time for sleep now
[09:28] <MooDoo> then why you on here lol
[09:28] <MooDoo> what time is it there?
[09:29] <popey> 02:29
[09:29] <lornajane> where .... oh, OSCON?
[09:29] <MooDoo> timezones eh!
[09:41] <popey> \o/ pizza arriving
[09:41] <SuperMatt> at this time of day?
[09:42] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: it's 2am where he is
[09:42] <SuperMatt> oh right
[09:42] <MooDoo> oscon
[09:42] <popey> \o/
[09:42] <SuperMatt> I'd just go to bed, tbh
[09:42] <SuperMatt> I can't be doing with being up so late
[09:42] <MooDoo> he's going for the record, 29 hours uptime ;)
[09:42] <popey> not my call
[09:42] <popey> my roomie ordered pizza \o/
[09:45] <MooDoo> wow so many awesome speakers at oscon
[09:48] <Laney> mmm portland
[09:49] <Laney> supposed to have good beer
[09:51]  * popey cosiders cold pizza for breakfash
[09:52] <MooDoo> you need sleep popey
[09:55] <diplo> Morning all
[09:55] <popey> yes, yes i do
[09:56]  * popey sleeps
[10:11] <mungbean> how is winmail.dat still an issue in this day and age?
[10:15] <mungbean> fortunately there's a thunderbird plugin for it
[10:17] <dwatkins> once again, the open sauce community rescues a coproration from embarrasment
[10:18] <SuperMatt> oh, is that that file that can never get over 2G or you lose EVERYTHING?
[10:19] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:19] <mungbean> SuperMatt: thats teh pst file
[10:20] <mungbean> winmail.dat is any attachment received from a outlook client
[10:20] <mungbean> needs to be converted before reading the attachments
[10:20] <SuperMatt> oh yeah, you're right
[10:20] <SuperMatt> oh gods, now I remember winmail.dat
[10:21] <mungbean> http://ubuntuforums.org/announce.html?t=1690426
[10:21] <mungbean> can't remember my ubuntu forum password
[10:21] <SuperMatt> I've never liked attachments on emails
[10:21] <mungbean> but had it for years, hope i didn't reuse
[10:21] <SuperMatt> just duplicates the bloody data
[10:21] <SuperMatt> "I'm just going to email 20 people this one document. Please make changes to it and send it back"
[10:22] <SuperMatt> now I have 21 copies of the document
[10:22] <SuperMatt> I may have reused the password, but I've changed all the important ones since
[10:22] <SuperMatt> if someone wants to break in to my gamespy account, go ahead
[10:22] <mungbean> ok
[10:37] <dvrr> Hiiiiiiii
[10:39] <dvrr> ubuntu  old kernel  removing time   i face  some problems  please  help me
[10:40] <MooDoo> just tell people what the problem is and if they can help you they will
[10:40] <MooDoo> !ask
[10:45] <dvrr> please open this URL http://paste.ubuntu.com/5900138/   i faced  this type of problems
[10:46] <MooDoo> have you tried apt-get -f instal ?
[10:46] <dvrr> yes
[10:46] <MooDoo> so what's the output of apt-get -f install ?
[10:47] <dvrr> please  open  this URL  http://paste.ubuntu.com/5900154/
[10:49] <DJones> Looking at that, /boot is full
[10:49] <DJones> From line 38
[10:49] <dvrr> yes
[10:49] <dvrr> boot partition full 100 %
[10:49] <directhex> yeah
[10:50] <dvrr> what i have to do  please  could you  tel me
[10:50] <directhex> the emergency "get out of jail free" option when that happens is to delete an old initrd or two (i.e. one not in use) from /boot, then you should be able to complete the dpkg operations normally, including uninstalling old kernels
[10:50] <MooDoo> oh bugger missed that :)
[10:50] <directhex> i.e. what does "ls -hl /boot" and "uname -a" say?
[10:51] <DJones> Its not something I've done, so I wouldn't like to make any any suggestion, somebody else should be able to help though
[10:51] <dvrr> root@ubuntu:~# uname -a Linux ubuntu 3.5.0-32-generic #53-Ubuntu SMP Wed May 29 20:23:04 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[10:51] <directhex> ok, so 3.5.0-32-generic in use currently
[10:53] <dvrr> using  ls -hl    please open this URL  http://paste.ubuntu.com/5900164/
[10:53] <directhex> ok, so you have 7 kernels installed
[10:54] <directhex> let's do what i said - delete some files you aren't using, let the "apt-get -f install" finish, the uninstall the old kernels "properly"
[10:54] <directhex> so "rm /boot/initrd.img-3.5.0-2*" should do the first part
[10:54] <directhex> and free up about 100 meg of space
[10:54] <dvrr> no  automatically update
[10:55] <directhex> ... i don't understand what you just said
[10:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> Just run this command (inc brackets):
[10:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> ( \
[10:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> KERNEL_HIGHEST=$(dpkg -l 'linux-image-[0-9.]*-[0-9]*-[a-zA-Z0-9]*' | grep ^ii | awk '{print $2}' | sort -V | tail -n 1 | sed 's/^linux-image-\([0-9.]*-[0-9]*\)-.*$/\1/') ; \
[10:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> KERNEL_CURRENT=$(uname -r | sed "s/\(.*\)-\([^0-9]\+\)/\1/") ; \
[10:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> sudo apt-get purge $(dpkg -l 'linux-*-[0-9-]*' | grep ^ii | awk '{print $2}' | sed "/$KERNEL_CURRENT/d;/$KERNEL_HIGHEST/d" ) ; \
[10:56] <dvrr> i did not install  7 kernels  automatically update only
[10:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> )
[10:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> courtesy of http://www.tolaris.com/2012/07/19/removing-old-kernels-from-ubuntu/
[10:56] <directhex> TheOpenSourcerer, note: will leave his system pretty screwy since he's not booted on the highest kernel right now
[10:56] <directhex> dvrr, i didn't debate that point, i tried to help you to fix it. if you're not interested in that, then fine.
[10:58] <directhex> TheOpenSourcerer, also, it doesn't fix the underlying problem - dpkg is stuck in a broken transaction because there's no free disk space, so the "apt-get purge" commands in that scriptlet cannot complete. deleting some initrds to make space first is not optional. dpkg needs to be in a clean state
[11:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> ahh.
[11:01]  * TheOpenSourcerer runs away!
[11:02]  * directhex wonders how long it takes to run a single "rm", assumes this is going to be more painful than he has time for
[11:04] <MooDoo> directhex: try it rm -rf /* ;) <---- DO NOT REALLY RUN THIS I'M JOKING
[11:04] <MooDoo> just for the benefit of the logs :D
[11:06]  * AlanBell slaps MooDoo for even joking
[11:06] <hd5770> moodoo that command is running a lot of stuff getting deleted
[11:06] <MooDoo> AlanBell: *blush* :)
[11:06] <MooDoo> hd5770: :) oops
[11:07] <DJones> From memory, UBuntu has a --preserve-root flag set so it won't do anything unless you're on a really old version
[11:12]  * DJones tries it in a VM just for fun
[11:12] <DJones> rm: cannot remove ' pretty much anything '
[11:14] <DJones> But does break the system
[11:15] <DJones> Its removed font/language packs sudo is no longer recognised as a command
[11:16] <DJones> Killed off grub when trying to reboot
[11:18] <hd5770> lol
[11:19] <DJones> It was quite interesting to do as an experiment
[11:20] <mungbean> sudo -i first
[11:20] <mungbean> run it from vty-1
[11:20] <DJones> Just a straight sudo running in a terminal
[12:28] <czajkowski> neuro_: mgdm http://www.groupon.com.au/deals/national-deal/Highland-Titles/717215553?nlp&CID=AU_CRM_1_0_0_203&a=715827934
[12:28] <mgdm> it's a scam
[12:28] <mgdm> has no legal bearing whatsoever, as far as I recall
[12:42] <diplo> Anyone in here ever used a HP MSA1000 ?
[13:18] <MooDoo> I guess that's a no then diplo :)
[13:19] <diplo> heh, guessing so :)
[13:20] <MooDoo> diplo: lots of storage though :D
[13:21] <diplo> yeah, freebie from a customer
[13:21] <diplo> But 5 of the discs aren't working, wanted to go on the serial port but they haven't suppled the cable. Wondering if whether a cisco serial one would work, also just some general advice
[13:22] <diplo> May go and search for one now
[13:22] <MooDoo> google is your friend in times like these
[13:22] <diplo> yeah I'm failing like a pro
[13:32] <mungbean> cameron wants to set up a UK wide pron filter. that'll work then.
[13:33] <brobostigon> lol, quite.
[13:34] <davmor2> mungbean: if it goes through expect whoever removes it to get in for the next election :)  + I thought it was more to target child porn which in my opinion simply shouldn't happen fullstop.
[13:36] <mungbean> nah, nothing ever gets removed by the next govt
[13:36] <mungbean> rah rah 17.5% VAT is terrible
[13:36] <mungbean> etc etc
[13:37] <davmor2> yes and they did remove the 17.5% they replaced it with 20%
[13:37] <mungbean> "thats just temporary"
[13:38] <davmor2> yeah for nearly 4 years ;)
[13:41] <brobostigon> first time for everything, my nexus7 just bootlooped with memory errors, connected adb, tried to fix it, couldnt, so reflashed android, all back to normal.
[13:42] <MooDoo> i'm thinking of a nexus 4
[13:43] <brobostigon> MooDoo: nice bit of kit, :)
[13:43] <MooDoo> brobostigon: selling my galaxy s3 to get it :D
[13:43] <brobostigon> MooDoo: ah, :)
[13:48] <davmor2> MooDoo: apparently you'll need a bouncy case just ask popey
[13:49] <MooDoo> davmor2: people have already shown me their phones, then agian shouldn't I be waiting for this sparkly ubuntu phone as well.
[13:49] <popey> Good morning all
[13:49] <davmor2> popey: morning how is oscon
[13:49] <MooDoo> howdy popey sleep well ish?  and how was the cold pizza :D
[13:49] <popey> yummy
[13:49] <SuperMatt> wait, how long were you asleep for?
[13:49] <SuperMatt> can't have been that long!
[13:50] <popey> dunno, some hours
[13:50] <popey> wide awake now
[13:50] <davmor2> popey: you won't get anywhere trying to use yum on ubuntu and yummy isn't even a command :P
[13:53] <MooDoo> davmor2: what?  you can't use yum on ubuntu, so what's this yum update i've just ran then :p
[13:53] <davmor2> MooDoo: you're not on ubuntu :P
[13:54] <davmor2> MooDoo: ssh'ing into RHEL boxes does count :D
[13:54] <MooDoo> davmor2: unless I aliased yum to apt-get
[13:54] <MooDoo> davmor2: ok ok i'll shutup now
[13:54] <MooDoo> davmor2: I don't like this new job czajkowski has, we never get time to abuse her any more :(
[13:55]  * davmor2 waits on the almight whack to land on MooDoo 
[13:56] <MooDoo> :D
[13:56]  * czajkowski slaps MooDoo over to the naughty step
[13:56] <czajkowski> am here
[13:56]  * MooDoo is in #naughtystep :d
[13:57] <mungbean> stupid java crapware
[13:57] <mungbean> notice the "ask" toolbar appeared on chrome are i rushed a java update
[13:57] <mungbean> after I
[13:58] <mungbean> only login to windows every few weeks and get bombarded with updates
[13:58] <MooDoo> i'm the same with ubuntu.....don't update for a few weeks then get bombarded with them :D
[14:04] <MooDoo> ok so the royal baby is nearly upon us, but who cares about that when's the ubuntu phone here? ;) lol
[14:04] <zleap> :)
[14:05] <zleap> so where can we buy this ubuntu phone in normal phone shops
[14:05] <zleap> this is where it needs to be, on display on the high street so people can walk in and see it as an option
[14:07] <popey> it does?
[14:08] <SuperMatt> we don't even know there is going to be an ubuntu phone! (we totally know there's going to be an ubuntu phone)
[14:10] <davmor2> czajkowski: so the new chicks are settling in? Are they picking on piripiri
[14:11] <czajkowski> she's picking on them and driving us all a bit crazy
[14:14] <SuperMatt> did someone say chicks? https://plus.google.com/photos/104760950939866700163/albums/5903437285399947169/5903437281909106562?authkey=CLrK5vitlcrKoQE
[14:16] <davmor2> czajkowski: she'll be boss then
[14:21] <czajkowski> davmor2: indeed
[14:21] <czajkowski> much hen pecking
[14:21] <MooDoo> i think your over egg-agerrating on that czajkowski
[14:21] <lornajane> czajkowski: did I miss something important?  What's your new job?
[14:22] <dvrr> dvrr
[14:22] <dvrr> thank you very  much  everyone
[14:23] <MooDoo> lornajane: http://www.lczajkowski.com/2013/06/13/a-bite-of-something-new/
[14:25] <czajkowski> lornajane: community manager here in EMEA for Mongodb at 10gen
[14:25] <dvrr> MooDoo,  directhex, TheOpenSourcerer  resolved my boot  partation  problem
[14:25] <lornajane> czajkowski: that's awezome, I love the 10gen guys (I mostly know the driver team, Derick's a close friend)
[14:26] <neuro_> czajkowski: highland titles?! bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
[14:26] <neuro_> czajkowski: *hug* :)
[14:26] <MooDoo> dvrr: cool
[14:28] <czajkowski> lornajane: yes Derick is good
[14:28] <czajkowski> so I am getting to know all about the php evens in EMEA :)
[14:29] <lornajane> czajkowski: it's a terribly important community, I hope you'll make sure to attend them all (and purely by coincidence have a drink with me)
[14:29] <mgdm> czajkowski: you'll be at PHPNW13 then? :)
[14:29] <lornajane> czajkowski: what mgdm said :)
[14:29] <czajkowski> one of the first thigns I've done is to make it easier to request help from us http://www.lczajkowski.com/2013/07/16/making-it-simpler-to-get-sponsorship-when-needed-from-10gen/
[14:30] <czajkowski> also the more sharing of that post would be great :)
[14:30] <czajkowski> mgdm: it's when and where
[14:30] <czajkowski> I#m now booked to attend a lot of things up to noember :)
[14:30] <czajkowski> *november
[14:30] <mgdm> czajkowski: Oct 4-6, Manchester
[14:30] <neuro_> czajkowski: please tell me you have no interest in that titles thing
[14:30] <mgdm> czajkowski: http://conference.phpnw.org.uk/phpnw13/
[14:31] <MooDoo> post shared czajkowski
[14:31] <czajkowski> neuro_: No but I found it cute and entertaining
[14:31] <neuro_> czajkowski: it's misleading, a scam and immoral
[14:47] <popey> \o/ breakfast
[14:47] <SuperMatt> more pizza?
[14:47] <popey> no, shattering bacon
[14:47] <SuperMatt> shattering?
[14:47] <neuro_> wat?
[14:47] <SuperMatt> streaky?
[14:48] <popey> merican
[14:48] <neuro_> it's the worst kind of bacon
[14:48] <popey> indeed it is
[14:48] <popey> and I'm eating it with a non-shattering bacon
[14:48] <SuperMatt> burnt to a crisp too, no doubt
[14:48] <neuro_> all of the hype, none of the meat
[14:48] <neuro_> yeah, i don't get the crisp thing either
[14:49] <SuperMatt> I like mine quite pink and dripping in fat
[14:49] <neuro_> "hey, let's take the awesome meat from a pig, but let's get the fattiest, streakiest, least-meaty parts, and burn it until all the remaining goodness has been sucked out of it, and call it Awesome"
[14:49] <popey> and add syrup
[14:49] <neuro_> yeah, what's that all about
[14:49] <SuperMatt> god, that makes me feel sick
[14:50] <neuro_> more and more i can't take americans seriously when they say they love bacon, but then you get a good look at what they're eating
[14:50] <neuro_> it's like someone saying "i love haggis!" but it's veggie haggis
[14:50] <neuro_> or "I love pizza!" but it's frozen pizza from iceland
[14:50] <SuperMatt> important pizza question:
[14:50] <neuro_> yes
[14:50] <neuro_> is the answer
[14:51] <SuperMatt> the following morning, do you nuke it for a minute or leave it cold?
[14:51] <neuro_> sorry, continue
[14:51] <arc__> hi i need lot's of help with grub plz
[14:51] <neuro_> i eat it cold
[14:51] <neuro_> but that's personal preference
[14:51] <neuro_> and it depends on the pizza
[14:51] <SuperMatt> arc__: what's the problem
[14:51] <neuro_> and how much cheese has been gunked on it in the first place
[14:51] <arc__> here is a paste bin http://paste.ubuntu.com/5900834/
[14:51] <neuro_> too much cheese + next morning = bin
[14:51] <neuro_> wow, nice
[14:51] <neuro_> don't do that
[14:52] <arc__> what
[14:52] <neuro_> install grub to a partition
[14:52] <SuperMatt> install /dev/sda
[14:52] <neuro_> install it to the mbr instead
[14:52] <neuro_> yeah, that
[14:52]  * SuperMatt nods
[14:52] <arc__> how
[14:52] <neuro_> like how SuperMatt said
[14:52] <arc__> ok
[14:52] <neuro_> BUT
[14:52] <SuperMatt> sudo grub-install /dev/sda
[14:52] <AlanBell> without the 2
[14:52] <neuro_> you are messing with the boot record on your disk, so tread lightly
[14:52] <arc__> ok exec it now
[14:52] <neuro_> measure twice, cut once
[14:53] <neuro_> or just ram ahead full steam
[14:53] <neuro_> whatever
[14:53] <SuperMatt> that's what I said when I had my circumcision
[14:53] <arc__> ok it works now
[14:53] <neuro_> ha
[14:53] <AlanBell> any particular reason why you are in the situation where you have to use such a command
[14:53] <AlanBell> TMI SuperMatt  :)
[14:53] <SuperMatt> :D
[14:53] <neuro_> generally if you don't understand what grub is doing, you shouldn't be doing things with it
[14:53] <SuperMatt> don't worry, it aint true
[14:53] <SuperMatt> I never said that
[14:53] <neuro_> SuperMatt: said the vicar to the nun
[14:54] <arc__> also how to make record my  desktop faster when encoding
[14:54] <neuro_> yeah, that's a one line answer ... ;)
[14:54] <neuro_> oh wait, it is
[14:54] <neuro_> buy a faster computer
[14:54] <SuperMatt> yup
[14:54] <arc__> ok
[14:54] <neuro_> or the longer answer:
[14:54] <neuro_> buy more ram
[14:54] <neuro_> and faster disks
[14:54] <neuro_> and a faster CPU
[14:54] <neuro_> or more CPUs
[14:54] <arc__> ok
[14:54] <SuperMatt> all of this
[14:55] <neuro_> what SuperMatt said
[14:55] <arc__> it is a bit pointless to buy more cpu's if your motherboard dosn't support it
[14:55]  * SuperMatt sheds a tear
[14:55] <SuperMatt> I've just removed The H from my feeds
[14:55] <neuro_> hence "buy a faster computer"
[14:56] <neuro_> the h .... oh yeah, they're "sunsetting", aren't they?
[14:57] <SuperMatt> yup :(
[14:57] <SuperMatt> they were quite good
[14:57] <neuro_> i never bothered with them tbh
[14:57] <neuro_> i never really rated heise's quality, but that's probably just a snap rash decision based on nothing but gut instinct
[14:59] <neuro_> oh no, The Verge reviews R.I.P.D. ... "'Men in Black' meets 'Ghostbusters,' minus the good parts"
[14:59] <neuro_> and i was looking forward to it too
[14:59] <SuperMatt> :(
[14:59] <mgdm> heh, I saw a prety scathing review of it the other day
[15:00] <neuro_> i have something of a mancrush on ryan reynolds
[15:00] <neuro_> also, you know, Mary Louise Parker
[15:01] <mungbean> i threw a laptop and a motherboard in the skip at the dump on sautrday
[15:01] <neuro_> bad
[15:01] <MooDoo> damn I thought that looked good, I shou;dn't have watched atlantic rim as it's put me off pacific rim :(
[15:01] <neuro_> naughty bad person
[15:01] <mungbean> as i stared into the abyss i saw other techonology staring back at me "pleeeease rescue me"
[15:02] <neuro_> was it a kosher WEEE skip, or was it just like a skip "down the street"
[15:02] <arc__> anyway when i started fire starter it came with an error that failed to open system log
[15:02] <mungbean> a WEEEEEEEEE skip
[15:02] <mungbean> at the dump
[15:02] <mungbean> almost took a photo
[15:02] <neuro_> ok, you're not naughty then
[15:02] <neuro_> you should have!
[15:02] <mungbean> you go up some steps and look down on loads of equipment
[15:03] <neuro_> arc__: and was the system log in the place where it said it wasn't?
[15:03] <mungbean> men were looking at me
[15:03] <neuro_> ah
[15:03] <mungbean> probably cos i had my 3yr old son
[15:03] <arc__> no
[15:03] <neuro_> probably thinking you looked like an open source type, and might have tried an extraction mission
[15:03] <mungbean> maybe they thought i was gonna throw him in
[15:03] <neuro_> lol
[15:03] <mungbean> nah, wasn't wearing black tshirt
[15:03] <popey> http://igg.me/at/ubuntuedge
[15:03] <mungbean> or beard
[15:04] <neuro_> you just say to them "but the human body generates more bio-electricity than a 120-volt battery and over 25,000 BTUs of body heat!"
[15:04] <arc__> no event info will be available
[15:04] <neuro_> every time i see "igg.me" i think "is this iggy pop's new website?"
[15:05] <neuro_> arc__: have you tried checking with the fire starter community? not sure how many people in here will have used it and had to troubleshoot it before.
[15:05]  * mungbean has been burned by early adoption before
[15:05] <arc__> ok will try that
[15:06] <Laney> "rakishly chamfered edges"
[15:06] <Laney> hahaha
[15:06] <neuro_> the Jony Ive kool aid has been well and truly swallowed :)
[15:06] <neuro_> CHAMFERED EDGES, MOTHER****ER!
[15:07] <neuro_> good lord
[15:07] <neuro_> i just saw the goal amount
[15:07] <SuperMatt> \o/
[15:07] <SuperMatt> yeah
[15:07] <SuperMatt> it's... a lot
[15:07] <neuro_> they want 32 million
[15:07] <mungbean> Finally, you can also boot the phone into Android
[15:07] <neuro_> MILLION
[15:07] <SuperMatt> but I imagine that there might be some companies about to put some big money in
[15:08] <SuperMatt> 0.001% of the way there already
[15:08] <neuro_> into an untried device?
[15:08] <SuperMatt> yup!
[15:08] <Laney> it's going up every time i refresh
[15:08] <neuro_> oh, this is actually a Canonical thing?
[15:08] <neuro_> it's really unclear
[15:09] <neuro_> why do canonical need crowdfunded money to make a phone?
[15:09] <MooDoo> they are doing over a kickstarter like event?  don't they have the money already?
[15:09] <neuro_> haven't they heard of these things called "banks"?
[15:09] <mungbean> If we don’t reach our target then we will focus only on commercially available handsets and there will not be an Ubuntu Edge.
[15:09] <MooDoo> neuro_: snap! :)
[15:09] <neuro_> mungbean: i like the passive aggressiveness there :)
[15:10] <mungbean> testing market desire for the product
[15:10] <neuro_> a test would be a $100K goal
[15:10] <mungbean> if you don't wash your hands you won't eat your dinner
[15:10] <popey> Yeah, it's not about throwing money at the problem
[15:10] <SuperMatt> 0.02% \o/
[15:11] <joshmyers> hey guys, I have a cronjob that runs s3cmd and sometimes outputs warning. I want to supress these warnings, can I pipe my command to like | grep -v 'WARNING' > /dev/null
[15:11] <mungbean> still, its a lot of phones and the skeptic in me says nearer $1m
[15:11] <joshmyers> to intercept warning?
[15:11] <neuro_> no
[15:11] <neuro_> well actually, yeah
[15:11] <popey> $1M wouldn't cover the cost
[15:11] <popey> £30 doesn't to be fair
[15:12] <popey> add a M to that ☻
[15:12] <neuro_> but if the warnings are going out on stderr, just do this instead: 2&>1
[15:12] <neuro_> since you're redirecting stdout to /dev/null anyway
[15:12] <neuro_> that'll redirect stderr to stdout
[15:12] <neuro_> so foo >/dev/null 2&>1
[15:13] <neuro_> joshmyers: make sense?
[15:13] <joshmyers> but I dont want to redirect all stderr to /dev/null. I want to know if it gets an ERROR, and not warning
[15:13] <joshmyers> so I just want any output of WARNING to go to /dev/null / into the ether :)
[15:14] <neuro_> oh
[15:14] <neuro_> well do the grep *and* the 2&>1 thing
[15:14] <neuro_> but not the dev null
[15:14] <neuro_> or something
[15:14] <neuro_> my brain hurts
[15:15] <joshmyers> lol :)
[15:15] <directhex> is a 28 day warranty legal under eu law? it's not obvious, since it's not a "purchase" per se
[15:15] <neuro_> so wait, canonical haven't made a hardware product yet, right?
[15:16] <neuro_> directhex: they won't be able to override statutory rights
[15:16] <joshmyers> neuro_: I'd have thought this should work, but it doesn't: | grep -v "WARNING:" > /dev/null
[15:16] <neuro_> joshmyers: my brain is too mashed in this heat to figure it out
[15:16] <neuro_> joshmyers: so write a wrapper shell script
[15:16] <neuro_> that greps stuff out
[15:16] <neuro_> #!/bin/bash
[15:16] <neuro_> foo | grep -v waa
[15:17] <neuro_> then do the cronjob pointing to the wrapper script
[15:17] <popey> neuro_: we dont plan to make hardware
[15:17] <neuro_> so what's the money for?
[15:17] <popey> getting someone else to make it ㋛
[15:17] <neuro_> tch ok, let me rephrase
[15:17] <neuro_> canonical haven't SOLD a hardware product yet, right?
[15:17]  * popey stops being picky
[15:17] <popey> yeah, we're a software company
[15:17] <neuro_> na, was a fair point :)
[15:17] <SuperMatt> not sure why so many people are going for the $600 option
[15:17] <neuro_> so my question is
[15:18] <neuro_> SuperMatt: cos it's a one day only thing?
[15:18] <SuperMatt> you don't get the phone, only one that has a knocked down price
[15:18] <MartijnVdS> neuro_: didn't Canonical sell USB sticks with Ubuntu installers in the web shop?
[15:18] <popey> $600 is what i paid for my iphone
[15:18] <SuperMatt> which could be only a penny
[15:18] <popey> it's not an outlandish amount for what you get
[15:18] <popey> MartijnVdS: 3rd party
[15:18] <neuro_> MartijnVdS: that's not a consumer electronics product requiring support infrastructure behind it though
[15:18] <joshmyers> neuro_: but why do I have to do it in a wrapper script? why cant I just pipe to grep?
[15:18] <neuro_> joshmyers: because, reasons
[15:18] <directhex> $830 is an outlandish amount for what you get though. that's the price, assuming you don't impulse buy within the next 24 hours
[15:18] <joshmyers> :P
[15:19] <joshmyers> http://sourceforge.net/p/s3tools/discussion/618865/thread/f81a67a1
[15:19] <neuro_> $830 = UKP540
[15:19] <neuro_> entry level iphone 5 incl vat UKP529
[15:20] <popey> mine isn't an iphone 5
[15:20] <neuro_> so?
[15:20] <neuro_> IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU, ALAN!
[15:20] <neuro_> ;)
[15:22] <popey> well, i was making the observation that 600 USD is the kind of amount people pay for unlocked premium phones
[15:22] <neuro_> sure
[15:22] <popey> and this is way more premium than any existing phone
[15:22] <neuro_> i was making your point
[15:22] <popey> heh
[15:22] <neuro_> iphone = this
[15:22] <MartijnVdS> "What happened?" "They agreed, violently."
[15:22] <neuro_> edge thing = this + 11 quid
[15:22] <neuro_> 11 quid = not much
[15:23] <neuro_> this feels like a vanity project to me
[15:24] <neuro_> google produce flagship unmodified handsets to show off the OS
[15:24] <MartijnVdS> neuro_: well, if this is going to be shipped by some (or all) of the carriers in the CAG..
[15:24] <neuro_> apple produce the same
[15:24] <neuro_> although in saying that, every new apple phone has been a flagship device
[15:24] <neuro_> MartijnVdS: why would it be?
[15:24] <MartijnVdS> why not
[15:24] <neuro_> surely the money from the campaign will be used to make the phones/
[15:24] <neuro_> s/\/\?/
[15:24] <neuro_> crap
[15:25] <neuro_> messed that up
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_toothpick_syndrome
[15:25] <neuro_> i hate backslashes
[15:25] <Dave2> neuro_: ITYM s,/,?,
[15:25] <popey> which is a flagship google product?
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> Dave2: s{/}{?}
[15:25] <neuro_> Dave2: i'll substitute YOUR expression
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> popey: The Nexus *
[15:25] <neuro_> yep
[15:26] <Dave2> MartijnVdS: now that just looks silly
[15:26] <popey> The nexus 4 is hardly premium
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> popey: (and the Pixel)
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> Dave2: \o/ Perl
[15:26] <slvr> MartijnVdS: does that actually work?
[15:26] <popey> it's a budget phone
[15:26] <neuro_> the pixel ... *brrrr*
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> popey: not when it first came out
[15:26] <neuro_> popey: never mind
[15:26] <popey> yes
[15:26] <popey> when it first came out and now, it's _not_ a premium product
[15:26] <neuro_> popey: you appear unable to divine the meaning from my statements :)
[15:26] <popey> insufficient coffee perhaps
[15:27]  * popey imbibesw
[15:27] <popey> -w
[15:27] <neuro_> c'est possible
[15:27] <neuro_> were you imbibing while typing again?
[15:27] <neuro_> glubglubglubglubspilldammitmesswipewipewipeswearhmmmglubglubglub...
[15:27] <neuro_> i'm not deliberately confrontational, just accidentally and genetically so
[15:28] <popey> My point is simply that $600 is a reasonable amount of money for a premium device, that's all. The iPhone has (historically) been seen as a premium device and sells for a comparable amount.
[15:30] <Laney> someone's paid the full price already
[15:31] <Laney> ^o)
[15:31] <SuperMatt> 1% of the way there
[15:31] <SuperMatt> that's not bad
[15:32] <neuro_> um
[15:32] <Laney> maths?!?!?!?!
[15:32] <neuro_> which planet are you from where 37000 is 1% of 32000000
[15:32] <SuperMatt> sorry
[15:32] <SuperMatt> 0.01
[15:32] <neuro_> seriously
[15:32] <MartijnVdS> neuro_: "Super"Matt -> Krypton?
[15:32] <neuro_> dig out a calculator
[15:33] <SuperMatt> dammit, it's 0.1
[15:33] <neuro_> lol
[15:33] <SuperMatt> what's wrong with me today
[15:33] <neuro_> you suck?
[15:33] <neuro_> it happens to me all the time
[15:33] <SuperMatt> I don't know
[15:33] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: heat melting brain?
[15:33] <SuperMatt> no, it's nicely airconned here
[15:33] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: you need some iron brew :p
[15:34] <DJones> When you look at the planned hardware, the price does seem reasonable for a premium phone, how many phones come with 4Gb of memory and a 128Gb SSD, so from that point of view comparing phone against phone, its not as much of a shock
[15:34] <neuro_> eww
[15:34] <neuro_> iron brew?
[15:34] <popey> the memory itself is astonishly expensive
[15:34] <popey> as is the screen
[15:34] <neuro_> DJones: will it still seem as good in a year?
[15:34] <MooDoo> neuro_: first think I could think of .... silly me I've just got a glass on my desk
[15:35] <neuro_> manky cheap supermarket stuff :O
[15:35] <SuperMatt> it's actually going up quite fast
[15:35] <neuro_> they need to average 43K an hour
[15:36] <SuperMatt> over 1mil per day
[15:36] <SuperMatt> oh how I'd lol if someone typed in too many zerons
[15:36] <SuperMatt> -n
[15:36] <neuro_> check out the big brain on brett :)
[15:36] <DJones> neuro_: That would depend how other manufacturers improve their hardware, if it goes ahead and they don't match it then you never know
[15:36] <SuperMatt> like they were including cents, or something
[15:37] <neuro_> wouldn't surprise me if htc or samsung came out with a 128GB unit
[15:37] <BigRedS> anyone know where the AppArmour config for the guest account is in 13.04?
[15:37] <BigRedS> or if there's a 'proper' way to configure it to be able to use USB sticks :)
[15:40] <Laney> BigRedS: /etc/apparmor.d/lightdm-guest-session @ the includes
[15:40] <Laney> &
[15:41]  * popey has the Ubuntu Edge prototype in his hands. Was stressfull bringing them over!
[15:41] <SuperMatt> I am genuinely surprised how fast the money is going up
[15:41] <popey> worried about losing them!
[15:42] <Laney> don't "leave it in a bar"
[15:42] <SuperMatt> cripes, I didn't realise a prototype had been made already
[15:42] <neuro_> SuperMatt: says so on the indiegogo page
[15:42] <SuperMatt> I wasn't paying attention
[15:42] <neuro_> popey: them or it?
[15:42] <popey> there's more than one
[15:42] <ali1234> does that really say $32 million?
[15:42] <popey> is your display broken?
[15:43] <ali1234> i'm not sure
[15:43] <neuro_> so surely "an Ubuntu Edge prototype" would have been more accurate? :)
[15:43] <neuro_> ali1234: it does
[15:43] <ali1234> i think it must be
[15:43] <popey> why are you even bothering neuro_ ? ☻
[15:43] <popey> i have _one_ in my hands
[15:43] <popey> I have more than one in my bag
[15:43] <popey> jeez
[15:43] <neuro_> yeah but you said "the" :)
[15:43] <popey> you should get a job
[15:43] <popey> well there is only one prototype design
[15:43] <neuro_> COMPILING!
[15:43] <popey> of course
[15:44] <neuro_> and you know i have a job, mister snarky :)
[15:45] <ali1234> so who wants to take bets on how much this actually raises?
[15:45] <ali1234> i call < $1m
[15:45] <MooDoo> I can < $300k
[15:45] <neuro_> i'm sure it'll break that
[15:45] <MooDoo> call
[15:46] <MooDoo> i take that back seeing as it's 64k and still has 31 days to go lol
[15:46] <SuperMatt> problem is, if it isn't anywhere near close by the end of the day, it aint gonna happen
[15:46] <AlanBell> day 1 and day 31 will be the biggest days
[15:46] <SuperMatt> yup
[15:47] <AlanBell> I am struggling to see a business making an $80k decision on an implementation project in a 31 day window, for a project that can't start until next year
[15:48] <ali1234> i can't see many people paying $800 for a smartphone
[15:48] <SuperMatt> I imagine it'll be for companies like orange and vodafone
[15:49] <DJones> I wonder whether a manufacturer/network may jump in as well with funding if they want to hedge their bets and to give alternatives to straight android/iphone, presumably not anyone who's already committed to working with the firefoxOS for phones, but could be a possibility
[15:49] <AlanBell> I don't think they can, on indegogo
[15:50] <AlanBell> I think they are a bit screwed, you set up your target and go for it (not quite sure how a business is supposed to put 80k on a credit card either tbh)
[15:50] <neuro_> very easily
[15:50] <neuro_> find an exec with an amex centurion, sorted
[15:51] <neuro_> but yeah, agree with the timescale thinh
[15:51] <neuro_> thing
[15:51] <neuro_> "hey boss, can we get 100 of these phones that we can't deploy until at least May, and that may or may not actually get made?" "sure, go ahead"
[15:52] <neuro_> and if a carrier is interested, surely they just join the advisory council and stick their oar in?
[15:52] <BigRedS> Laney: ah, '#include' isn't a commented-out include, then?
[15:53] <mungbean> firefox has a knack of taking down my entire pc
[15:53] <neuro_> remember, sabdfl said in the video, this is a test project to put a foot in the water before making millions
[15:53] <neuro_> of phones
[15:53] <BigRedS> I should probably read up on the syntax of this thing before editing it...
[15:53] <neuro_> lol
[15:54] <mungbean> maybe its to make people shut up
[15:54] <Laney> BigRedS: nope, see C preprocessor syntax
[15:54] <mungbean> so they can say "look we tried the phone thing but you guys didn't buy it"
[15:54] <MartijnVdS> Laney: also, sudoers syntax
[15:54] <neuro_> lol
[15:54] <neuro_> big gamble if they got the money
[15:54] <mungbean> too big a gamble
[15:55] <mungbean> crowdsource the funding
[15:55] <neuro_> "oh no, now we need to build these things?!"
[15:55] <MooDoo> sheesh 70k refresh then 94k
[15:55] <mungbean> if its not there then neither is teh market
[15:55] <BigRedS> Laney: yeah, the missing space between the hash and the word 'include' just jumped out at me
[15:56] <mungbean> what the biggest indiegogo raised before?
[15:56] <ali1234> perhaps the idea is simply to see how many people will buy one without having to commit to anything
[15:56] <mungbean> perhaps, nothing lost there
[15:56] <MooDoo> wow this is going up fast
[15:56] <neuro_> yeah cnet just posted about it
[15:56] <MooDoo> that explains it
[15:57] <neuro_> i think the record is The Oatmeal's Tesla Museum campaign
[15:57] <neuro_> $1.37m
[15:58] <ali1234> "We’ll choose the fastest available multi-core processor" - somehow i don't think an i7 will fit inside a phone
[15:58] <MartijnVdS> .. or the battery
[15:58] <MooDoo> blimey who put in $10k
[15:58] <MartijnVdS> it's at $120 now
[15:58] <neuro_> MooDoo: matt mullenweg of wordpress fame
[15:59] <MooDoo> neuro_: yes just read it
[15:59] <DJones> I was just looking to see who had done the $10K
[15:59] <ali1234> does indiegogo accept bitcoin?
[15:59] <ali1234> i'd stump up the $600 if they did
[16:00] <ali1234> i can't justify spending that kind of real money on a phone though
[16:00]  * neuro_ can
[16:00] <neuro_> but it'll be a new iphone later this year
[16:00] <MartijnVdS> I'm waiting for the next Nexus phone. Not switching to an alpha/beta phone os just yet
[16:00] <neuro_> yeah same here
[16:01] <neuro_> i need a phone that i know works, unfortunately
[16:01] <popey> You know it dual boots? ☻
[16:01] <MartijnVdS> popey: during a call? ;)
[16:01] <popey> hah
[16:01] <popey> So you can boot to android or ubuntu
[16:01] <neuro_> popey: no good for me, android isn't in my workflow, but yeah, that's a good point
[16:01] <ali1234> that's kind of worrying. makes me think you know very well that ubuntu touch won't be usable
[16:02] <mgdm> How about triple boots? Ubuntu, Android and FirefoxOS? :)
[16:02] <ali1234> it should be able to run mer too
[16:02] <ali1234> anything based on libhybris really
[16:02] <neuro_> and no, they don't accept bitcoin
[16:03] <neuro_> visa/mc/amex/discover/paypal
[16:03] <ali1234> despite what everyone claims, they basically are all just shells on top of the android kernel
[16:03] <neuro_> paypal only for non-USD
[16:03] <neuro_> LINUX KERNEL
[16:03] <ali1234> no, the linux kernel with the android patches which are not part of linux
[16:03] <ali1234> otherwise known as the android kernel
[16:03] <neuro_> which means it's a linux kernel with hw patches ;)
[16:04] <ali1234> the hw stuff isn't in the kernel, it is proprietary blobs
[16:04] <neuro_> you know what i mean ;)
[16:04] <ali1234> the android patches have very little to do with hardware
[16:04] <neuro_> but it's still the linux kernel, right?
[16:05] <ali1234> partly
[16:05] <brobostigon> wow, CM boots so quickly on my nexus7, flies. :)
[16:05] <neuro_> the ubuntu kernel has patches
[16:05] <neuro_> is that the Ubuntu Kernel?
[16:05] <ali1234> yes
[16:05] <BigRedS> yes
[16:05] <neuro_> same with RH
[16:05] <popey> yes
[16:05] <popey> which is why we make a distinction between "ubuntu kernel" and "upstream kernel"
[16:05] <popey> or "mainline kernel"
[16:05] <popey> most other distros do the same
[16:06] <ali1234> it's certainly not what you get if you go to kernel.org and clone linus' git repo
[16:06] <neuro_> so you're saying they're not Linux then?
[16:06] <ali1234> no
[16:06] <ali1234> but they are the ubuntu, or android, or rh, or whatever kernel as well
[16:06]  * popey notes neuro_ is in a particularly persnickety mood today
[16:06] <ali1234> all of them are linux
[16:06] <ali1234> none of them are each other
[16:07] <ali1234> they are not equivalent so none of them can be exactly linux
[16:07] <ali1234> yet they are all related to it
[16:07] <neuro_> popey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
[16:09] <popey> someone gave $1
[16:09] <popey> \o/
[16:09] <SuperMatt> awww
[16:09] <MartijnVdS> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-06-24/ ?
[16:09] <SuperMatt> fyi, it ha already done better than geary
[16:10] <mgdm> MartijnVdS: I knew what strip that would be before I clicked \o/
[16:11] <MartijnVdS> 18 years old that strip
[16:12] <SuperMatt> and we're still superiour
[16:12] <MartijnVdS> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-06-22/ :)
[16:29] <bigcalm> Good afternoon peeps :)
[16:31] <MartijnVdS> \o bigcalm
[16:31] <bigcalm> Hey :)
[16:32] <bigcalm> 30min call with Rackspace and it appears that I have the VPNs set up correctly. Just need to get this one device to play ball
[17:46] <AlanBell> my daughter just came running in to show me the BBC article about the funding campaign on her mobile
[17:51] <bigcalm> \o/
[17:52] <bigcalm> AlanBell: you'll have to buy them for the kids now
[17:52] <diddledan> ouch, 32 meelion dollars?!
[17:53] <bigcalm> Do I really want to fork out £390 quid now for a handset that will be amazingly out dated by the time I get it next year?
[17:53]  * bigcalm bites his nails in worry
[17:54] <Prostetnic> http://pastie.org/private/f6qhlrd2foqmlgiy0tzxpa
[17:54] <Prostetnic>  http://pastie.org/private/rl3cqtrkqd3wi0sp7cng
[17:54] <Prostetnic> ^^ can anyone help with casper-rw persistence?
[17:54] <DJones> Prostetnic: Please don't do that
[17:54] <Prostetnic> On a multiboot live CD?
[17:55] <Prostetnic> DJones, paste urls? double post? or ask questions?
[17:55] <DJones> Prostetnic: Sorry, that was me only half reading, I saw the part at the top of the page & thought it was spam
[17:56] <Prostetnic> Well I guess it was suspicious behaviour
[17:56] <Prostetnic> |/
[17:56] <bigcalm> With suspicious minds
[17:57] <DJones> Prostetnic: No worries, it would fit some spammers patterns, apologies again
[17:57] <DJones> Prostetnic: Probably better if you can give a bit more detail on the issue you're having and what you want to achieve
[17:57] <Prostetnic> DJones, no problem at all. :)
[17:58] <Prostetnic> I've setup a multiboot USB using grub2 as the bootloader
[17:58] <Prostetnic> I've followed all the steps I can find online to get casper to actually do persistent boots
[17:59] <Prostetnic> But no luck.
[17:59] <Prostetnic> Thought I'd try a last ditch attempt to see if anyone here knew how to do so.
[18:00] <Prostetnic> Hold on a sec and I'll find the guides I followed
[18:00] <DJones> Must admit, its not something I've ever tried, do the iso's actually boot and is it just the persistance part thats not working
[18:00] <Prostetnic> Yes
[18:01] <Prostetnic> I suspect the persistence problem is that I've got the casper-rw file on the root of my usb
[18:01] <DJones> I've only ever used pesistence after using usb creator to install an iso to the stick, which doesn't keep it as an iso
[18:01] <Prostetnic> But it's mounting ISO files
[18:02] <Prostetnic> Yes that's how I've used it in the past too
[18:02] <Prostetnic> Unfortunately not really multiboot
[18:03] <DJones> Is this something you've had a look at http://cafeninja.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/multiboot-liveusb-multiple-iso.html
[18:03] <Prostetnic> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCD/Persistence#Setting_Up_Your_USB_Stick
[18:03] <Prostetnic> http://www.pendrivelinux.com/boot-multiple-iso-from-usb-via-grub2-using-linux/
[18:04] <DJones> I was just looking at that one
[18:04] <Prostetnic> ^^^ These are the 2 guides I've tried to use. Looking a yours now
[18:08] <Prostetnic> Hmmm.... not sure about the extremely french and rather sales-y Multi boot live
[18:09] <Prostetnic> Ach! I think I might give up for today. It's too hot for this nonsense.
[18:13] <DJones> Maybe hang around for a bit, hopefully somebody else will be able to jump in with some advice
[18:17] <Prostetnic> Sure :)
[18:22] <diddledan> argh, canonical, why have you put me in this dilemma?!
[18:23] <diddledan> I want. I want.
[18:23] <diddledan> Wallet doesn't.
[18:27] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: have popey buy it for you
[18:28] <diddledan> popey, buy me an edge, please :-)
[18:28] <diddledan> wait, I _CAN_ afford it - just need to sell my blackbook
[18:28] <diddledan> \o/
[18:33] <popey> ☻
[18:37] <MartijnVdS> Two crowdfunding things on one day though.. http://t.co/B4tVJfi7bb
[18:43] <diddledan> *swear*
[18:43] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: you can fund this one for $1 or $0 though if you want :)
[18:43] <diddledan> I just accidentally clicked "pay"
[18:43] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: for the phone?
[18:43] <diddledan> yup
[18:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> Am I late to the party: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQLe3iIMN7k
[18:45] <diddledan> TheOpenSourcerer: I just bought one
[18:45] <popey> neve rheard of subbable
[18:45] <diddledan> just this second
[18:45] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: saw that on G+ already ;)
[18:46] <diddledan> it's at threee quarter's of a meelion already
[18:46] <diddledan> not bad for day1
[18:46] <MartijnVdS> it needs to do over 1M/day
[18:50] <AlanBell> popey: so can we get a VAT receipt for an Ubuntu Edge?
[18:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> Can't see it making $32m somehow...
[18:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> AlanBell: My thoughts exactly
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> I'm not going to convince anyone to spend $80k..
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> AnyCorp
[18:51] <AlanBell> with an avoidable 20% penalty in it
[18:52] <directhex> it's not a purchase, so there's no VAT receipt
[18:52] <AlanBell> indeed
[18:52] <directhex> there's also no VAT per se
[18:52] <AlanBell> but it is a sale, so canonical have to remit VAT
[18:53] <MartijnVdS> it's an "investment"
[18:53] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[18:53] <AlanBell> nope, not an investment
[18:53] <AlanBell> as far as I can make out, it is a gift for the giver, and a sale for the receiver in terms of VAT
[18:53] <MartijnVdS> so what is it
[18:53] <MartijnVdS> if it's not a sale
[18:53] <AlanBell> it is a sale, but not a purchase
[18:54] <MartijnVdS> ah
[18:54] <AlanBell> we did fund the parallella thing without worrying about it too much, but that was a bit less money
[18:55] <AlanBell> and it wasn't going to be a UK business on the other side of it
[18:57] <AlanBell> so even if I thought £390 for a PAYG handset some time next year was a totally reasonable thing to take a punt on, I am not sure I want the admin pain
[18:57] <TheOpenSourcerer> Like to see eclipse run on it ;-)
[18:57] <popey> heh
[18:57] <TheOpenSourcerer> Usably
[18:58] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: I'm sorry you believe eclipse is usable? :D trollololo
[18:59] <TheOpenSourcerer> rimshot.
[18:59] <TheOpenSourcerer> But will it blend?
[19:00] <popey> wow, got to be dedicated to punt 500 odd quid and then blend it
[19:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> s/dedicated/stupid
[19:01] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: I'll look forward to seeing your video blend it
[19:01] <christel> oh i havent had my parallella thing yet.. it was supposed to ship around easter wasnt it?
[19:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> AlanBell: This suggests to me it's a purchase:
[19:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> What warranties apply to the Ubuntu Edge?
[19:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> If you are not happy with the product, you may return it within 28 days of receiving it for a full refund. Please note, Canonical can not cover the cost of the return postage and packaging.
[19:02] <AlanBell> christel: yeah, it hasn't yet though
[19:02] <christel> aha
[19:02] <AlanBell> TheOpenSourcerer: I don't think you can reclaim VAT on it though
[19:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> Well, it's techncially a US sale so is exempt anyway?
[19:07] <AlanBell> dunno, isle of man company, shipping locally to the UK
[19:07] <TheOpenSourcerer> AH
[19:08] <AlanBell> payment in dollars, to indegogo - are they the supplier?
[19:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms
[19:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> American terms.
[19:27] <neuro_> well ... ubuntu edge is rattling away at about 208K an hour
[19:27] <MartijnVdS> .. for now
[19:27] <neuro_> well, yeah

[19:28] <neuro_> if the average goes < 43K, they're stuffed
[19:28] <AlanBell> depends on the objectives
[19:29] <neuro_> um
[19:29] <neuro_> to get 32m within 31 days
[19:29] <neuro_> it's a fixed funding campaign, reach total or fail
[19:29] <neuro_> and it's not kickstarter, there are no stretch goals or whatever, it's do or die
[19:31] <neuro_> veronica mars did 2.3m on their first day
[19:31] <neuro_> and that's the most successful crowdfunding campaign ever (so far)
[19:32] <neuro_> and they did ~ 7.3K an hour avg
[19:32] <neuro_> http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/559914737/the-veronica-mars-movie-project/#chart-daily
[19:33] <AlanBell> so, if the goal is to get articles on BBC, Guardian, Times, CNN, MSNBC, AlJazeera, RT about the product for free, then this might achieve that objective
[19:34] <neuro_> that's not "the goal", though, that's just a means to the goal
[19:34] <neuro_> and they're already on bbc: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23402994
[19:34] <neuro_> oh, and we have a royal sproglet
[19:35] <MartijnVdS> you do now?
[19:35] <neuro_> "we"
[19:35] <AlanBell> a boy
[19:35] <neuro_> i see bbc1 is now bbc news
[19:35] <MartijnVdS> ah http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/blog/2013/jul/22/royal-baby-kate-admitted-to-hospital-for-birth-live-coverage
[19:35] <neuro_> the announcement has been sent from le hospital to le palace
[19:35] <diddledan> may I spam my ebay link? :-p (I just finished listing my black macbook)
[19:36] <neuro_> i'd say fire away and see if you get kicked ;)
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> neuro_: Wait, they're French now?
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> neuro_: don't you mean "aus dem Krankenhaus in den Palast" ?
[19:36] <neuro_> this definition of "breaking news" ... BREAKING NEWS, BABY BORN FOUR HOURS AGO
[19:37] <neuro_> and cnn is hassling my phone with the news now
[19:37] <diddledan> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321169932536 my black macbook is for sale! </kickbait :-p>
[19:37]  * diddledan waits
[19:37] <neuro_> (cue countdown music)
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: you should tidy your desk :)
[19:38] <Azelphur> wow, core2duo for £500? macbooks really are overpriced
[19:38] <Azelphur> XD
[19:38]  * neuro_ oofts at the price also
[19:39] <Azelphur> I paid £450 for my 11.3" i7 2.3ghz GT 650M laptop.
[19:39] <neuro_> MartijnVdS: never mind the desk, the laptop needs a good clean :)
[19:39] <diddledan> I'm not expecting to get the 500
[19:39] <Azelphur> even the 300 seems crazy for a laptop of that spec
[19:39] <Azelphur> I bought a similar specced lappy for my mum for £90
[19:39] <Azelphur> although, not a macbook
[19:39] <Azelphur> but then, I suppose you're paying for the brand.
[19:40] <neuro_> ok, that was annoyiung
[19:40] <neuro_> the bbc news app on my phone just sent me a notification about the sprog
[19:40] <neuro_> and it played the first few bars of the bbc news theme when it did it
[19:40] <Azelphur> in other news, there are people on the beach this evening with a bonfire
[19:40] <Azelphur> why would you want to be hotter today?!?
[19:41] <neuro_> cos they can cook stuff?
[19:41] <ali1234> wah wah wah
[19:41] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: some people don't think about their actions
[19:41]  * Azelphur shrugs
[19:41] <ali1234> are we nearly there yet?
[19:41] <Azelphur> ali1234: nope
[19:41] <neuro_> where
[19:41] <MartijnVdS> where?
[19:41] <ali1234> "there"
[19:42] <diddledan> we've reached 5k off 1meelion
[19:42] <neuro_> past
[19:42] <neuro_> 1.003m
[19:42] <AlanBell> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge just punched through a million
[19:42] <neuro_> in 4.75 hrs, not bad
[19:42] <Azelphur> holy crap, canonical are making a phone :o
[19:43] <popey> keep up Azelphur ☻
[19:43] <Azelphur> hehe
[19:43] <mgdm> Hmm, to Bootstrap, or not to Boostrap
[19:43] <mgdm> that is the question
[19:43] <neuro_> twitter bootstrap?
[19:44] <mgdm> neuro_: aye. Building a toy site, wondering if I use that, or go from scratch
[19:44] <neuro_> do it
[19:44] <mgdm> (it's going to need to be all responsive 'n' shiz, but I find bootstrap pretty heavy in terms of page weight)
[19:44] <neuro_> i built a toy site for me and my mates, works a treat
[19:44] <neuro_> min it
[19:44] <neuro_> in fact it comes pre-min'd
[19:45] <mgdm> I do wonder a bit about all those presentational classes in the markup
[19:45] <mgdm> but I can probably get over that
[19:45] <neuro_> haha, the dude who took the notice of the birth into the palace just totally mugged for the camera
[19:45] <neuro_> i can't believe i'm sitting watching rolling news coverage of a gold covered easel
[19:45] <Azelphur> saphire crystal displays o.O
[19:47] <mgdm> neuro_: the name of the game today has been 'padding'
[19:48]  * mgdm notes that $work are not opting for the 'breaking news' tag on the site for that story \o/
[19:48] <neuro_> ooh, royal pres secretary is kinda cute
[19:49] <Azelphur> this looks pretty awesome
[19:49] <neuro_> mgdm: :)
[19:51] <diddledan> Azelphur: buy it!
[19:51] <Azelphur> diddledan: tempted :P
[19:51]  * neuro_ is not tempted
[19:51] <Azelphur> neuro_: why not?
[19:52] <neuro_> a) i don't have the cash to hand yet (payday is friday)
[19:52] <neuro_> b) i'm waiting for the next iphone
[19:52] <Azelphur> lolphone :p
[19:52] <neuro_> c) i don't like the idea of running a dev phone as "my" phone
[19:52] <diddledan> iphone shmeyephone
[19:53] <neuro_> um ok
[19:54] <Azelphur> hmm, no warranty on a high end device?
[19:54] <Azelphur> that's a little worrying
[19:54] <neuro_> statutory warranty
[19:55] <emorris> Hi, has anyone seen an issue on gedit in 12.04 where switching between tabs often doesn't cause content to be updated? Or does anyone know what this could be? I can't seem to find any relevant bugs.
[19:55] <Azelphur> neuro_: dunno, I feel like forcing statuatory warranties if the product fails is a bit crazy
[19:56] <Azelphur> if I buy a device like that and it dies, I expect to be able to swap it out without any fuss
[19:56] <neuro_> wat?
[19:56] <Azelphur> neuro_: statuatory warranty is the law in UK right?
[19:56] <neuro_> variable
[19:56] <Azelphur> I dunno, based on the FAQ it sounds like they're gonna be awkward about warranty replacements basically
[19:56] <Azelphur> given that they say only 30 days
[19:56] <neuro_> claim period EU-wide is 2 yrs
[19:57] <neuro_> england, wales, NI is 5 yrs
[19:57] <neuro_> oops, 6 yers
[19:57] <neuro_> scotland is 5 yrs
[19:57] <Azelphur> neuro_: 6 years, really?
[19:57] <Azelphur> so if anything that I bought in UK breaks in 6 years, I can send it back legally?
[19:58] <diddledan> Azelphur: only if it is due to poor workmanship or design
[19:59] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: it's always poor design ;)
[19:59] <diddledan> lol
[19:59] <Azelphur> ah, basically difficult
[19:59] <Azelphur> diddledan: I mean if I'm forking out for an expensive piece of hardware, I sorta expect to not be messed around if it's broken
[19:59] <Azelphur> like when I bought a £120 gaming keyboard from Logitech and it was broken, they just sent me a new one straight away no hastle
[19:59] <Azelphur> hassle*
[20:00] <diddledan> yeah, it'ld be nice if canonical committed to an overproduction of 10% of unitcount or some such and use those for any warranty replacements - after 1 year they can auction off the remainder
[20:01] <diddledan> failure rates are like a bathtub curve - high in the first couple of months then practically nonexistant until end-of-life
[20:02] <diddledan> end of life, at which point it rockets back up again**
[20:02] <Azelphur> yea, I think I'll pass on the edge for now, the warranty, "specifications are subject to change" and the 2014 release date all put me off.
[20:02] <neuro_> http://sogahub.tradingstandards.gov.uk/sogaexplained
[20:02] <neuro_> click on 3
[20:02] <neuro_> The law says that a customer can approach you with a claim about an item they purchased from you for up to six years from the date of sale (five years after discovery of the problem in Scotland).
[20:03] <neuro_> This does not mean that everything you sell has to last six years from the date of purchase! It is the time limit for the customer to make a claim about an item. During this period, you are legally required to deal with a customer who claims that their item does not conform to contract (is faulty ) and you must decide what would be the reasonable amount of time to expect the goods to last. A customer cannot hold you responsible for fair wear and
[20:03] <neuro_> The six-year period is not the same as a guarantee, but it does mean that even where the guarantee or warranty supplied with the product has ended, your customer may still have legal rights.
[20:04] <Azelphur> fun
[20:06] <neuro_> BBC, pfffft
[20:06] <neuro_> "if you are just tuning in, let us bring you up to date with the latest news ..."
[20:06] <neuro_> yes, if you are UNABLE TO READ the huge red banner saying ROYAL BABY BOY
[20:06] <mgdm> 'some bird has calved'
[20:06] <neuro_> lol
[20:07] <neuro_> "population(earth)++"
[20:07] <neuro_> oh good
[20:07] <neuro_> dave's making a statement
[20:07] <diddledan> wait, royal baby boy? you mean succession still carries on through male heirs?!
[20:08] <diddledan> I thought the whole point of changing the rules was so that kate could have a girl!
[20:08] <neuro_> your attempt at humour is confusing
[20:08] <neuro_> wow, bbc one have just completely dumped the schedule
[20:08] <neuro_> julia bradbury will be well annoyed
[20:09] <neuro_> her new health show thing is supposed to be on now
[20:27] <czajkowski> Laney: popey https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vNXi52cReYk/Ue14Bu1U46I/AAAAAAAAU9A/XLKwbkRdvYc/w400-h300-no/1.gif
[20:28] <Laney> hahaha
[20:28] <czajkowski> Laney: popey http://femour.com/26-baby-animals-that-need-to-check-themselves-very-funny-gifs/#sthash.WM9UbJx7.dpbs
[20:28] <Laney> i feel like that about potatoes
[20:28] <czajkowski> <3 #3 :)
[20:29] <neuro_> http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/c/cd/PoTaToes.gif
[20:30] <Laney> here comes the storm
[20:43] <DJones> Just saw this on twitter, The baby might be out, but the Australians have asked for the umpire to review the decision
[20:46] <brobostigon> lol.
[20:47] <mgdm> EDONTGETIT
[20:47] <mgdm> though, cricket, at a guess?
[20:55] <bigcalm> Laney: Gimmie storm, don't hog
[20:57] <ali1234> it's stopped now
[20:58] <brobostigon> still going on here, rain and thunder etc,
[20:58] <mungbean> we're due in middle of night
[20:58] <bigcalm> I love how Chromium forgets how to load youtube videos until refresh has been hit a few times
[20:59] <mungbean> £1.3M already, well i was wrong
[20:59] <mungbean> maybe they should extend the $600 phone offer
[21:00] <popey> that's not happening
[21:01] <ali1234> popey: is your prototype just an empty shell like ogra's?
[21:02] <mungbean> this is what i've been up to: http://i.imgur.com/NL3Oorf.jpg
[21:03] <mgdm> nice
[21:03] <mgdm> that's the first kit I ever built
[21:03] <mungbean> :D
[21:04] <mungbean> this one had over 50 tiny decals to apply
[21:04] <mungbean> finished another on the same day http://i.imgur.com/FnDEnEG.jpg
[21:05] <mgdm> ooh, I did a Mustang too, though it was silver and blue
[21:05] <mgdm> and I didn't have an airbrush so it looked a little sketchy :D
[21:05] <popey> ali1234: didnt know ogra had one
[21:05] <mungbean> mgdm: you should take it up again :)
[21:05] <ali1234> oh sorry it was a reshare... like jono's :)
[21:05] <mgdm> mungbean: I've been considering it - I think the Saturn V might look quite good in the corner of the room beside the telly :D
[21:06] <popey> yeah, it's an engineering prototype
[21:06] <ali1234> you know the more i think about this the more i think it might be successful
[21:06] <ali1234> i mean the N900 sold like hot cakes
[21:09] <mgdm> neuro_: It has been September for 20 years, nearly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September :-)
[21:09] <neuro_> Y U TELL ME DIS
[21:09] <neuro_> I NOES DIS
[21:10] <mgdm> I figured you were one of the few people I know who might understand (I am aware of the concept but I was 10 in 1993 and didn't have interwubs)
[21:10] <neuro_> dear god
[21:11] <neuro_> i think i already had an account on arbornet by then
[21:11] <neuro_> i was in 2nd year of college, but i kept sneaking into gla uni to meet up with mates and do net stuff in the labs
[21:11] <neuro_> we had no JANET in anniesland :(
[21:14] <mgdm> oooh, I have graph search
[21:14] <neuro_> do you have the new feed yet?
[21:14] <neuro_> hmm i has graph search too
[21:16] <neuro_> haha
[21:16] <neuro_> "My friends who like Android"
[21:16] <neuro_> unfriend, unfriend, unfriend, unfriend ...
[21:17] <neuro_> wow, this isn't creepy-capable at all ... "My single female friends who have interests similar to mine"
[21:17] <mgdm> we had a talk at Whisky Web about how graph search works, it was quite interesting
[21:17] <neuro_> constructed purely by refining search from the drop downs
[21:17] <mgdm> and, yes, that's rather worrying
[21:17] <neuro_> "Likes The Stig · You like The Stig"
[21:17] <neuro_> ok
[21:18] <neuro_> thanks friendface
[21:19] <neuro_> annoyingly, the "13 of [your] friends have made the switch" to the new newsfeed are bloody facebook employees
[21:20] <neuro_> apart from a couple of randoms, no idea how they got it
[21:20] <mgdm> hehe
[21:20]  * neuro_ shakes fist
[21:20] <neuro_> *CORY* ....
[21:21] <ali1234> doesn't facebook release a new newsfeed every 2 months?
[21:21] <neuro_> this is the new super magic one
[21:21] <neuro_> https://www.facebook.com/about/newsfeed
[21:22] <mgdm> that looks like Twitter cards
[21:22] <ali1234> hahaha it looks exactly like google plus did 2 months ago
[21:22] <neuro_> i don't know what's worse ... having the Facebook VP of Mobile Engineering on my friends list, or knowing he can make a better meatball sandwich than me
[21:23] <neuro_> ali1234: as has that, it just hasn't been rolled out to all fb users yet
[21:24] <ali1234> yeah copying g+ isn't going to convince me to switch
[21:24] <ali1234> nobody i know uses facebook
[21:24] <neuro_> you know me
[21:24] <neuro_> well, at least in an internet way
[21:25] <neuro_> i can't stand g+, it's way too noisy
[21:25] <neuro_> and awful to look at
[21:26] <neuro_> that two column thing drives me batty
[21:26] <neuro_> oh good, front pages
[21:26] <neuro_> express "IT'S A BOY"
[21:26] <neuro_> the star "IT'S A BOY"
[21:27] <neuro_> guardian "A birth, a boy, a prince, a king"
[21:27]  * mgdm prodded the Republican button earlier on
[21:27] <neuro_> :)
[21:27] <neuro_> wow, news at ten is actually showing Other News
[21:28] <neuro_> nope, back to baby
[21:28] <neuro_> there was a cracking one from the reporter out in Kate's home town (Buckleby)
[21:28] <neuro_> he was saying families were letting their kids stay up late to "see their local girl give birth"
[21:29] <neuro_> um, "see"?
[21:29] <neuro_> was there a private ustream feed that we missed? :)
[21:30] <mgdm> *shudder*
[21:31] <bigcalm> Anybody know how to force a dhcp lease to expire in open-wrt?
[21:31] <MattJ> neuro_, I think it was you who recommended Synology?
[21:31] <neuro_> tangentially, yeah
[21:31] <MattJ> Someone did
[21:31] <neuro_> i think i pointed at them rather than recommended
[21:32] <MattJ> You'll be pleased to know that I bought one, and decided to abandon my self-build :)
[21:32] <neuro_> i'll probably be buying my first one on friday
[21:32] <neuro_> haha cool :)
[21:32] <neuro_> i mean there's merit to self build to learn how to do stuff
[21:32] <MattJ> and I'm not regretting it, it's much better than I hoped
[21:32] <neuro_> but sometimes we just want stuff to Work
[21:32] <neuro_> i get paid to be a sysadmin, but not 24/7 ;)
[21:32] <MattJ> :)
[21:33] <neuro_> says the guy sitting beside two ESXi servers
[21:33] <neuro_> two NASes
[21:33] <neuro_> three laptops
[21:33] <neuro_> a netbook
[21:33] <neuro_> a desktop
[21:33] <neuro_> and a partridge in a gigabit switch
[21:33] <neuro_> and that's just in this room
[21:33]  * MattJ looks at the 1U under his desk
[21:33] <MattJ> Well it doesn't quite fit
[21:33] <neuro_> awww
[21:34] <neuro_> there are 1U NASes
[21:34] <neuro_> if you're prepared to burn a credit card or two
[21:34] <MattJ> Yeah, not quite prepared to go that far :)
[21:34] <neuro_> me either ;)
[21:36] <ali1234> i wonder how stupid i need to act on facebook to make everyone unfriend me
[21:36] <ali1234> considering the quality of my newsfeed i suspect the answer is "incredibly"
[21:37] <neuro_> like things like the BNP, Islam, KKK and Fox News
[21:37] <ali1234> haha
[21:37] <neuro_> should clear out most people in minutes
[21:37] <ali1234> sadly no
[21:37] <ali1234> that would get most of them
[21:37] <ali1234> but there's a few that regularly post stuff like that
[21:37] <neuro_> well if you like Islam as well ...
[21:37] <neuro_> and maybe a gay pride page or something
[21:38] <ali1234> the trouble with that is... if i make it too obvious that i'm trying to be offensive, people would realise it
[21:38] <neuro_> you'd get shot of everyone pro and anti gay, racism, bigotry ...
[21:38] <neuro_> stick in a like for The Fratellis and that'll be everyone
[21:39] <ali1234> but if i post both sides, people will think i'm being fair and balanced or something
[21:39] <neuro_> hehe
[21:39] <ali1234> or posting one side as "look how stuypid this is"
[21:39] <neuro_> like the stupid stuff first
[21:39] <neuro_> then unlike them a week later
[21:39] <neuro_> then like the sensible stuff
[21:39] <ali1234> i think i need to go more subtle than that
[21:39] <neuro_> then a week later do the fratellis
[21:39] <neuro_> stage it
[21:40] <neuro_> the short answer is just remove your account, wait for it to be completely deleted, then create a new one
[21:40] <ali1234> i can't do that
[21:40] <ali1234> i only have an account because i have to admin a page
[21:40] <neuro_> you can
[21:40] <neuro_> i think the answer is you won't do that :)
[21:40] <ali1234> if i didn't require a facebook account to do that i would just delete it and never go back
[21:42] <neuro_> why not hand the reins to someone else?
[21:42] <neuro_> or create a "that page only" account?
[21:42] <ali1234> too much work
[21:42] <ali1234> it was bad enough setting up the developer API once
[21:42] <bigcalm> I have a LAN of 192.168.1.0/32. There is one device on the network that I need to give the IP address of 192.168.5.1. Efforts so far have failed. How can I do this?
[21:43] <ali1234> our website has "login with your facebook account"
[21:43] <ali1234> this is a right pain in the ass to configure
[21:44] <neuro_> bigcalm: "need to"?
[21:44] <ali1234> i can't really hand it over to someone else because i am the only one who knows anything about computers :/
[21:44] <neuro_> lol
[21:44] <bigcalm> neuro_: need to, it's what the VPN provides
[21:44] <ali1234> bigcalm: going to need a network diagram....
[21:45] <neuro_> make router vpn endpoint
[21:45] <bigcalm> It is
[21:45] <neuro_> use 192.168.5.1 as vpn route link subnet
[21:45] <neuro_> route traffic to/from lan /24 using routing table
[21:45] <neuro_> sorted
[21:45] <bigcalm> Don't understand these things :(
[21:46] <neuro_> which is why your question is the wrong question to ask
[21:46] <neuro_> your lan should be doing default gw via router
[21:46] <neuro_> router should route traffic to vpn
[21:47] <neuro_> lan will route via router routing table
[21:47] <neuro_> you were talking about this the other day
[21:47] <neuro_> can't remember if you said 192.168.5 is a /24 or just a vpn subnet or what
[21:47] <neuro_> like are all the things that need to be reached via vpn in a 192.168.5/24 subnet?
[21:47] <neuro_> or is it just a route to Other Stuff
[21:48] <jpds> bigcalm: Giving something an IP address has nothing to do with routing.
[21:48] <neuro_> that
[21:49] <neuro_> actually, if you were using pfsense, you could just set up a filter rule to push all traffic from a specific IP or IPs on your LAN via the VPN interface rather than the default egress interface
[21:49] <bigcalm> I shall draw something to try and explain this
[21:49] <neuro_> oh no :)
[21:49] <jpds> bigcalm: Does your machine already have an IP address?
[21:49] <popey> looks like it'll hit 2 million before today is out
[21:49] <neuro_> blikmeh
[21:49] <neuro_> s/k//
[21:50] <neuro_> hmm at current rate, maybe :)
[21:51] <neuro_> more like 1.8m-ish
[21:51] <neuro_> which is still bloody incredible
[21:52] <neuro_> interesting that 39 people thought "nah, i don't want to save $230, i want to give canonical MOAR MONEY" and bought the non-one-day-only pledge
[21:54] <ali1234> i would sign up if there was some way i could pay in bitcoin, but bitcoin + paypal = hell no
[21:55] <neuro_> looks like funkyhat is having vm problems
[21:55] <neuro_> i don't understand this obsession with bitcoin, frankly ;)
[21:56] <ali1234> that's because you don't have any
[21:56] <neuro_> nor do i need any
[21:56] <neuro_> not sure what the problem is about using "real" money
[21:57] <ali1234> you don't "need" a million yen either, but you wouldn't say no to it either
[21:57] <ali1234> the problem with using "real" money is i don't have any
[21:57] <neuro_> i'll wager the yen fluctuates less than the bitcoin
[21:57] <neuro_> so sell your bitcoins
[21:58] <ali1234> that's what i'm trying to do!
[21:58] <neuro_> lol
[21:58] <ali1234> i could sell bitcoins for paypal and then use that to pay indiegogo
[21:58] <neuro_> i thought there was an exchange that could pay out bitcoins to cash using some barclays app thingy
[21:58] <ali1234> however paypal are highly likely to freeze the account if it gets refunded
[21:58] <ali1234> because i only opened it an hour ago
[21:59] <neuro_> yeah, this all sounds much better than using money :)
[21:59] <ali1234> it's much better
[21:59] <neuro_> clearly
[21:59] <ali1234> notice that the problems happen as soon as "real" money is onvolved
[21:59] <neuro_> for you
[21:59] <neuro_> if i had enough in the bank, i could just use my visa debit card, or indeed my existing paypal acct
[21:59] <ali1234> converting bitcoin to USD is easy, it's going the other way that is difficult
[21:59] <neuro_> if i wanted to use up a credit card, i could do that too
[22:00] <neuro_> i think you got a bit muddled there
[22:00] <neuro_> unless you meant to say "bitcoins -> cash = easy, cash -> bitcoins = hard"
[22:00] <neuro_> in which case, what's the prob? :)
[22:01] <ali1234> the problem is there's a 99% chance that the campaign won't be successful, then i'll have $600 stuck in paypal
[22:01] <neuro_> oh i see
[22:01] <ali1234> since paypal isn;t a real bank, no protections
[22:01] <ali1234> since i got the $600 by selling bitcoin, they'll probably freeze it for 6 months
[22:01] <neuro_> then just wait until they break the funding amount
[22:01] <ali1234> yeah
[22:02] <ali1234> or even just wait until next may and just buy one normally like a normal person and get a proper warranty and stuff
[22:02] <neuro_> um
[22:02] <popey> they're not going to be sold outside the indiegogo campaign
[22:02] <neuro_> wat
[22:02] <neuro_> exactly
[22:03] <ali1234> wat indeed
[22:03] <ali1234> so there will only ever be 40,000 of them?
[22:03] <neuro_> did you not actually *read* the thing?
[22:03] <neuro_> "The Ubuntu Edge project aims to do the same for the mobile phone industry -- to provide a low-volume, high-technology platform, crowdfunded by enthusiasts and mobile computing professionals."
[22:03] <neuro_> key bit is "low-volume"
[22:04] <neuro_> can someone layeth the smackethdown on mr (or ms/mrs) funkyhat? :)
[22:04] <ali1234> that is not specified on the indiegogo page
[22:05] <neuro_> eh?
[22:05] <neuro_> it's in the first paragraph
[22:05] <ali1234> nowhere on the indiegogo page does it say "this device will not be available outside this campaign"
[22:06] <neuro_> scroll down to "About our project"
[22:06] <neuro_> with the photo of photos
[22:06] <neuro_> "The Ubuntu Edge is an exclusive production run, available only through Indiegogo."
[22:06] <ali1234> ah, fair enough
[22:06] <neuro_> lol
[22:06] <neuro_> daftie :)
[22:07] <ali1234> well, that's interesting
[22:07] <ali1234> makes the whole thing even weirder i think
[22:08] <ali1234> i mean why go to the trouble of designing a phone and then only ever make 40000 of them?
[22:08] <neuro_> you need to read that page again ;)
[22:08] <ali1234> no wonder the thing is so expensive
[22:08] <neuro_> it's really not
[22:08] <neuro_> for what you're getting
[22:09] <ali1234> er... yes it is
[22:09] <neuro_> wat
[22:09] <bigcalm> I don't know if this makes anything clearer: http://discworld.cuth.eu/dump/a_thing.jpg
[22:09] <ali1234> $800 for a phone?
[22:09] <neuro_> that's about right
[22:09] <neuro_> for a 4-5" screen smartphone
[22:09] <neuro_> with quad core cpu, 4GB RAM, 128GB storage
[22:09] <neuro_> GSM, UMTS, HSPA, LTE
[22:10] <popey> sapphire glass...
[22:10] <neuro_> the htc one is only about 50 quid cheaper
[22:11] <neuro_> with a quarter of the storage
[22:11] <popey> the memory and the glass are significant costs in the BOM
[22:11] <neuro_> sounds right
[22:11] <popey> and we're not making any profit on this
[22:11] <neuro_> and htc one has half of the ram
[22:11] <ali1234> so am i to assume that it will be delivered with 14.04?
[22:12] <popey> that would be reasonable
[22:12] <ali1234> and therefore it will receive updates (image updates that actually fix phone stuff) for 5 years?
[22:12] <diddledan> 1.75mill
[22:12] <popey> dunno if touch is "LTS" or not
[22:12] <popey> good question
[22:14] <ali1234> in any case, even if canonical does not ever make another phone, somebody else will
[22:15] <ali1234> if they don't, then i've lost nothing anyway, because nobody is going to make apps for a phone that only has a market of 40000
[22:16] <neuro_> if you just want a phone with Ubuntu on it, just buy a nexus 4 and shove touch onto it
[22:16] <ali1234> i want a phone with ubuntu on it that has apps
[22:17] <neuro_> and my suggestion is non-useful because?
[22:17] <bigcalm> neuro_: is my photo any more informative?
[22:18] <ali1234> there is no value in ubuntu touch as it currently is because there is no software for it
[22:18] <neuro_> bigcalm: sorry, i loaded it up then got distracted by shiny
[22:18] <neuro_> hang on
[22:18] <bigcalm> Thanks :)
[22:19] <neuro_> so web server lives in a rackspace cloud
[22:19] <neuro_> i don't necessarily understand the "only traffic from 192.168.5.1" bit though
[22:20] <neuro_> are you saying the web server *only* accepts http connections from 192.168.5.1?
[22:20] <neuro_> (ps, s/visa-versa/vice versa/)
[22:20] <bigcalm> Not at this stage. Part of the web server may be moved to its own machine, but for now it's sitting on a otherwise public system
[22:21] <bigcalm> We need traffic from the X4 to go to the web server via the VPN
[22:21] <ali1234> which machine is the VPN server? which machines run VPN clients?
[22:21] <neuro_> set a static route on the adsl router to route traffic to 162.13... via 192.168.5.1
[22:21] <neuro_> simples
[22:21] <bigcalm> And from the web server to the X4 via the VPN
[22:21] <neuro_> wat?
[22:22] <neuro_> no
[22:22] <ali1234> if you do that, the ADSL router will route the packets over the default route (to the internet) where your ISP will immediately drop them because they are in the private IP range
[22:22] <neuro_> hang on
[22:22] <neuro_> brain is farting, i obviously need food
[22:23] <bigcalm> According to both Rackspace and the ADSL router, the VPN is working between the firewall and the ADSL router. It's now a matter of routing traffic around
[22:23] <neuro_> yeah i guess you could put a 192.168.1.0/24 route on the other end to point back via it's vpn endpoint
[22:24] <neuro_> if the router is/was NATting the traffic over the vpn connection, which it might do, then all the 192.168.1/24 traffic would appear to come from 192.168.5.1 anyway
[22:24] <ali1234> define "working" pls
[22:24] <ali1234> what network address is the VPN using?
[22:24] <bigcalm> I need to be able to, from the web server, make a call to 192.168.5.1
[22:24] <neuro_> ok, that's new
[22:25] <ali1234> the diagram is missing most of the useful information :(
[22:26] <bigcalm> One moment
[22:27] <bigcalm> http://discworld.cuth.eu/dump/another_thing.png
[22:28] <ali1234> whaaaat
[22:28] <bigcalm> That is a screen shot from the ADSL router of the VPN connected
[22:28] <neuro_> thought the adsl was 212...something
[22:28] <ali1234> so the firewall is the VPN server?
[22:28] <bigcalm> Its public IP is
[22:29] <bigcalm> Yes
[22:29] <ali1234> or does it forward the connection?
[22:29] <neuro_> right, sorry
[22:29] <neuro_> misread
[22:29] <ali1234> so 162 isn't a public IP addrss, it a VPN IP address...
[22:29] <bigcalm> It is also a public IP address
[22:29] <bigcalm> As I say, things might get moved around
[22:30] <ali1234> you have bought that whole range?
[22:30] <bigcalm> We asked Rackspace to set up a VPN, they gave us this
[22:31] <ali1234> you will have to set up static routes on every machine so that they know how to reach 192.168.5.1
[22:31] <neuro_> no
[22:31] <bigcalm> It's one machine
[22:31] <neuro_> no, no, no, no
[22:31] <ali1234> yes
[22:31] <neuro_> PUT ROUTE ON ADSL ROUTER
[22:31] <ali1234> at the very least on the webserver, the firewall, and the ADSL router
[22:32] <neuro_> if the router is natting over the vpn tunnel, then no
[22:32] <ali1234> you will also have to put a static route on 192.168.5.1 so that it knows how to get to the VPN
[22:32] <ali1234> if you only put the route on the ADSL router the packets will get to the webserver and the replies will be dropped by the webserver
[22:33] <ali1234> alternatively the ADSL router will NAT them and send them over the internet and then the webserver will drop them
[22:33] <ali1234> if the firewall doesn't drop them first
[22:33] <neuro_> http://db.tt/MJI37HNq
[22:34] <neuro_> it's sideways for some reason :P
[22:34] <ali1234> that makes even less sense
[22:35] <ali1234> that will just send the packets from 192.168.5.1 back to 192.168.5.1
[22:35] <neuro_> it is genuinely unclear to me where this 5.1 IP is coming from
[22:35] <bigcalm> On the web server, I just did tracepath 192.168.5.1   While viewing the live view of another_thing.png, I saw packets being sent and received
[22:35] <ali1234> it's the X4 machine
[22:35] <ali1234> it's a second subnet behind the ADSL router
[22:35] <neuro_> bigcalm: is that right?
[22:36] <ali1234> which is something the ADSL router's NAT almost certainly can't cope with
[22:36] <neuro_> i thought it was the link subnet on the vpn tunnel
[22:36] <ali1234> no, that is the 162...
[22:36] <neuro_> wat
[22:36] <ali1234> hang on let ME draw a diagram
[22:37] <neuro_> no, that's a /32 on the other end
[22:37] <bigcalm> neuro_: your diagram is a better representation of my text :)
[22:37] <neuro_>  /32 is not a link subnet
[22:37] <ali1234> it's not on the other end, it's the VPN subnet
[22:37] <neuro_> bigcalm: it's a living ... ;)
[22:37] <ali1234> anything attached to the VPN is going to have a 162 address
[22:37] <neuro_> so it's an endpoint address
[22:37] <neuro_> not a link subnet
[22:38] <neuro_> bigcalm: what kind of router is it you have (can't believe i didn't ask sooner)
[22:38] <neuro_> make and model pls
[22:39] <bigcalm> neuro_: DrayTek Vigor2710
[22:39] <neuro_> thought it looked draytekish
[22:40] <neuro_> right, explain the 192.168.5.1 IP please
[22:40] <ali1234> yes
[22:41] <bigcalm> We will eventually have multiple locations, each with an ADSL connection and each with a 192.168.5.x address.
[22:41] <bigcalm> This is so that we can send data to them rather that public IP addresses
[22:41] <bigcalm> And any data sent from the sites will come via the VPN as well
[22:42] <bigcalm> There is an irritation with the set-up as one company will be installing the ADSL routers and setting up the VPN connections while another company will be installing the X4 devices which are the only devices to actually use the VPNs
[22:43] <bigcalm> We had hoped to have the VPN terminate on the X4s themselves, but apparently we can't have that
[22:43] <neuro_> ok, here's the manual if you don't have it already
[22:43] <neuro_> http://www.draytek.co.uk/support/userguides/Vigor2710%20User%20Guide%20V1.0.zip
[22:43] <bigcalm> Ta
[22:44] <neuro_> on page 147 there is an option to add a static route to "direct all traffic destined to this Remote Network IP Address/Remote Network Mask through the VPN connection"
[22:44] <neuro_> it would also be interesting to know if the VPN is configured to NAT or Route
[22:44] <neuro_> if NAT, this is easy; if Route, this is tricky
[22:45] <neuro_> if NAT then in theory the VPN traffic on the other end would appear to come from the VPN firewall
[22:46] <neuro_> and you'd just need to set rules on the web server to only accept traffic from the VPN firewall IP
[22:46] <bigcalm> We need it so that only the X4 can send via the VPN, thus I thought that I needed to assign 192.168.5.1 to it
[22:47] <neuro_> how would the web server know what 192.168.5.1 is?
[22:47] <bigcalm> Yes, the last part of locking down part of the web server to VPN originating traffic will be relatively simple
[22:47] <neuro_> think about it
[22:47] <bigcalm> I have been informed by the Rackspace netsec guy that the source IP address will be 192.168.5.1
[22:47] <neuro_> right, in that case
[22:48] <neuro_> may i respectfully suggest you continue the conversation with Rackspace netsec guy, who appears to know more about their VPN firewall than any of us do ;)
[22:48] <bigcalm> As I said above, I did a tracepath to 192.168.5.1 from the web server and I saw traffic on the VPN connection on the ADSL router
[22:48] <neuro_> right, so the traffic is tunneling out and being presented on an RFC IP
[22:48] <bigcalm> I did have a 30 min phone call with them today and I thought that I had got it all correct
[22:48] <neuro_> so it's a nat connection
[22:49] <neuro_> so you need to tell your X4 whatever that is to route to web server public IP via the vpn
[22:49] <neuro_> and the best place for that really is the draytek, but i'm not sure how granular you can make the routing
[22:49] <neuro_> from the manual is seems to be all or nothing
[22:49] <ali1234> if the draytek does NAT
[22:50] <neuro_> in theory it doesn't matter
[22:50] <ali1234> how will the webserver connect to a machine behind that NAT?
[22:50] <neuro_> cos the remote end seems to be NATing anyway
[22:50] <ali1234> this makes no seeeeeeeeense
[22:50] <ali1234> i'm out
[22:50] <neuro_> you're aware that these things are stateful, right?
[22:50] <ali1234> yes
[22:51] <ali1234> so when you've just switched it on and there is no state and you go to the webserver and type "ping 192.168.5.1" where does it send packets?
[22:51] <neuro_> IP_1:12345 -> router_1:whatever -> router_2:whatever -> IP_2:80
[22:51] <neuro_> then IP_2 says to router_2 "hey send these back the way they came"
[22:51] <neuro_> and so on back down the chain
[22:51] <bigcalm> It's bi-directional. The web server needs to make RESTful calls to the X4 as well
[22:51] <ali1234> and when IP_2 tries to connect to IP_1, what happens?
[22:52] <neuro_> there's likely a route on the web server that says "hey, 192.168.5.1/whatever is routed via the VPN guy, awesome"
[22:52] <ali1234> right
[22:52] <neuro_> ali1234: the IP_1/2 thing was a hypothetical intended to discuss stateful firewalls
[22:52] <ali1234> so as i said, you need a static router on the webserver
[22:52] <ali1234> route*
[22:52] <neuro_> no nonononononononononononononoo
[22:52] <neuro_> there already IS one by all accounts
[22:53] <ali1234> this does not change the fact that it is needed
[22:53] <neuro_> 23:48 <bigcalm> As I said above, I did a tracepath to 192.168.5.1 from the web server and I saw traffic on the VPN connection on the ADSL router
[22:53] <neuro_> stop confusing things
[22:53] <bigcalm> Me?
[22:54] <neuro_> no, ali1234 :)
[22:54] <bigcalm> Okay
[22:54] <bigcalm> This is how the ADSL router is configured for the VPN http://discworld.cuth.eu/dump/a_third_thing.png
[22:55] <ali1234> so assuming the webserver has that static route, and it sends the packet for 192.168.5.1, how does the firewall decide which of the possibly multiple VPN end points it needs to send the packet to?
[22:55] <neuro_> because it's authenticating
[22:55] <neuro_> 192.168.5.1 is the dsl router
[22:55] <neuro_> and i note it's 192.168.5.1/32
[22:55] <neuro_> so it's a single IP endpoint
[22:55] <bigcalm> Yes
[22:56] <neuro_> soooooo i will assume that on both ends, the connections are NATted
[22:56] <ali1234> i see
[22:56] <ali1234> it's a point to point link
[22:56] <neuro_> so in theory, a PAT rule on the VPN interface on the DSL router would suffice
[22:56] <bigcalm> If there were to be more than one device behind the ADSL router that needed to use the VPN, then a subnet would need to be used. But as there is only ever going to be 1 device, we can use a single subnet for the 1st 254 locations
[22:56] <neuro_> 192.168.5.1:whatever -> 192.168.1.whatever:whatever
[22:57] <ali1234> yes
[22:57] <neuro_> and then site 2 would probably get 192.168.5.2, etc
[22:57] <bigcalm> That's already been set-up. I just need to get .1 working 1st :)
[22:57] <ali1234> also it's not 192.168.5.1/32
[22:57] <ali1234> it's /0
[22:58]  * neuro_ gives up
[22:58] <ali1234> this is clearly specified in the screenshot, 192.168.5.1, network mask 255.255.255.255
[22:58] <neuro_> which = /32
[22:58] <bigcalm> :(
[22:59] <ali1234> oh yeah, my bad
[22:59] <neuro_> yeah, don't mind me, i only do this for a living :)
[22:59] <ali1234> suddenly everything makes sense
[23:00] <bigcalm> \o/
[23:00] <bigcalm> I just tried to click an option in the screen shot :|
[23:00] <neuro_> i wouldn't futz with it
[23:01] <bigcalm> Yeah, so the VPN "works"
[23:01] <neuro_> hang on a sec
[23:01] <neuro_> let me try to get into work vigor
[23:01] <bigcalm> Thank you :)
[23:01] <neuro_> ssh tunnel tomfoolery ahoy
[23:02] <neuro_> password remembered \o/
[23:04] <neuro_> hmm
[23:04] <neuro_> vpn doesn't show up as a target interface for PAT
[23:04] <neuro_> at least on our config
[23:05] <neuro_> but then again we don't have a vpn rigged for NAT
[23:05] <neuro_> i'd be interested to see if you change the TCP/IP Network Settings > From first subnet to remote network, you have to do [route / NAT] dropdown from Route to NAT
[23:05] <neuro_> s/see/see what happened/
[23:05] <neuro_> on that VPN >> LAN to LAN page
[23:06] <neuro_> for profile 1
[23:06] <neuro_> then look at NAT >> Address Mapping to see if you can select the VPN as a target interface for PAT ...
[23:08] <bigcalm> I'm a little confused now. Terms I'm not used to
[23:09] <neuro_> PAT = port forwarding
[23:09] <bigcalm> I can see the drop down to change from Route to NAT, that's a start :)
[23:09] <bigcalm> Oh, okay
[23:09] <neuro_> if you're able to set port forwarding rules on the router on the VPN interface, then you can let the web server talk back to the X4
[23:10] <bigcalm> Do I need to do anything with RIP Directions?
[23:10] <bigcalm> -s
[23:10] <neuro_> nooooo
[23:10] <bigcalm> Okay :)
[23:10] <neuro_> i'd suggest not making any more changes just now however
[23:10] <neuro_> i'm about to go watch some DS9 then go to bed
[23:11] <bigcalm> Heh
[23:11] <neuro_> because i thought it was half ten when in fact it's after midnight
[23:11] <neuro_> if you're not bothered about the rest of the LAN being able to talk to the web server IP, this is in theory doable
[23:11] <bigcalm> I would _really_ welcome more help tomorrow. Very greatful for the time/info spent tonight
[23:11] <neuro_> if the draytek can do inbound port forwarding over the vpn interface
[23:12] <neuro_> yeah no worries :)
[23:13] <bigcalm> I hear that the company will hire a network guy at some point, but right now I feel that I've been dropped in it a little
[23:13] <bigcalm> Wow, tis late
[23:13] <neuro_> aye :P
[23:13] <bigcalm> Sleep becomes him
[23:13] <neuro_> good plan :)
[23:13] <neuro_> tootles all!
[23:13] <bigcalm> Night peeps