[00:31] <OvenWerks> micahg: Interesting, the launchpad bazar branch diff listing picked up an error lintian missed.
[00:32] <OvenWerks> It was good to learn how to make man pages.
[00:37] <OvenWerks> micahg: ok, ubuntustudio-installer at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-installer should be ready this time.
[00:38] <OvenWerks> (unless adding a newline to the end of the desktop file makes lintian complain)
[00:39] <OvenWerks> micahg: I understand it may be next week before you get to it.
[00:40] <OvenWerks> let me know when I should remind you.
[01:36] <micahg> OvenWerks: ok, will try to take a look sat night, but might not be until Monday
[01:39] <OvenWerks> micahg: no problem. I will be gone for the weekend anyway. We all have monday off in this neck of the woods (BC). SO if you need to talk to me it may be monday night or tuesday.
[01:40] <micahg> ok, thanks for working on the lintian warnings
[07:36] <cub> I can't remember from my last installation, but is Libre Office not included in the default US installation?
[07:36] <smartboyhw> cub, NO.
[07:36] <smartboyhw> And seriously, the user can just simply run "sudo apt-get install libreoffice"
[07:36] <cub> aha, do you know why?
[07:36] <cub> Sure
[07:36] <smartboyhw> cub, I forgotten
[07:36] <cub> I was just surprised
[07:37] <smartboyhw> cub, we do have a reason. But ask zequence for that.
[07:37] <cub> I suppose it could be since we pull from Xubuntu
[07:50] <zequence> Yes, it's mostly due to Xubuntu, and I don't think we ever included it before either
[07:53] <smartboyhw> So zequence should we include it?
[07:56] <zequence> smartboyhw: We can decide later, I think. We're currently looking at becoming DE agnostics, and Libre Office would need to be a part of the publishing workflow
[07:56] <zequence> I do feel it belongs there though
[07:56] <smartboyhw> zequence, :)
[07:56] <smartboyhw> Maybe u can reply to the user on the mailing list then
[07:57] <smartboyhw> And tell him we might include it
[07:57] <cub> It's not really Publishing though?
[07:58] <smartboyhw> cub, it is (to be honest)
[07:58] <cub> perhaps writer and impress, but not draw, base or calc. IMHO
[07:59] <smartboyhw> cub, well we can divide these using the brilliant menu that OvenWerks works on:P
[07:59] <cub> To me it's an office suit which might or might not have anything to do with a studio installation
[08:00] <smartboyhw> cub, don't tell me a musician doesn't need a spreadsheet to keep track of all his daily life expenses:P
[08:00] <cub> but maybe not on his recording system?
[08:01] <cub> I install it on every machine I have, sure. But I think it could be confusing moving it to the publishing (or other US menus) when it usually ends up in the Office menu
[08:02] <cub> Then again LibreOffice Draw in 12.04 ends up in both Office and the US Graphics menu.
[08:03] <smartboyhw> cub, draw will be in graphics
[08:04] <smartboyhw> You will want LibreOffice for maybe a draft for publishing?
[08:05] <zequence> cub: That's true. The whole suite is not related to publishing
[08:06] <cub> Perhaps. I'm not working with publishing anymore. But when we did we used the publishing tools for drafts as well. But the office suits were needed because customer could send stuff in all kinds of documents.
[08:09] <smartboyhw> zequence, I managed to get my PPA oversized :O
[08:09] <smartboyhw> main PPA
[08:10] <zequence> smartboyhw: you should buy a bigger size t-shirt for it
[08:11] <smartboyhw> zequence, I asked to increase it:P
[08:11] <smartboyhw> But why a T-shirt?!
[08:11] <zequence> otherwise, the belly button will show
[08:11] <smartboyhw> zequence, LOL LOL
[08:11] <smartboyhw> bad joke
[09:36] <smartboyhw> Wow, we have somebody strongly objecting to LibreOffice here.
[10:13] <smartboyhw> zequence, hmm Ralf suggested Abiword (used in Xubuntu)....
[10:18] <cub> Abiword is what Xubuntu ships with so... I don't like it myself but that's only me.
[10:19]  * smartboyhw doesn't also, been using LibreOffice
[10:21] <zequence> If we go DE agnostic, we ship with what Xubuntu has, but we could see about blocking some applications that we don't want to have since we already provide them
[10:22] <zequence> so, if we choose to go with Libre Office Writer, we could block Abiword, and the same on other DEs, where they have something similar. What does Kubuntu use?
[10:23] <smartboyhw> zequence, libreoffice for kubuntu
[10:25] <cub> I think Steve had some good points in the email discussion
[10:25] <zequence> I think his points are a bit vague though
[10:25] <smartboyhw> Well: 
[10:25] <smartboyhw> I particularly object when I try to remove a package & Ubuntu insists on removing the entire windows manager.
[10:25] <zequence> Not seeing any actual facts there, only what he wishes for
[10:25] <smartboyhw> ^ Uh hum
[10:26] <cub> to have libreoffice and other similar apps in an extra-package
[10:26] <smartboyhw> We can have a full discussion :P
[10:26] <smartboyhw> Final decision will be made by zequence ofc:)
[10:26] <cub> and I agree, I hate when I want to remove something and it says "will remove everything"
[10:27] <smartboyhw> You know, I got attacked when I proposed to remove PPC image builds for Kubuntu:P
[10:27] <cub> Still, it's quite easy to install libreoffice manually after you have installed
[10:27] <zequence> cub: If that happens, and it's a bad thing, then it might be a bug
[10:27] <cub> hey, I
[10:27] <cub> 'm actually going to install a PPC computer today :D
[10:28] <zequence> I have an old iBook PPC, but use Debian on it
[10:28] <zequence> works great, apart from lack of GPU support for 3D (I think)
[10:28] <cub> I downloaded Debian xfce for ppc yesterday. Found my old imac in storage with Mandrake 9.1 installed.
[10:29] <smartboyhw> You know, Ubuntu decided to remove PPC Desktop images
[10:29] <smartboyhw> So I proposed it
[10:30] <smartboyhw> Next thing, Xubuntu steps in (including micahg) and say that they want PPC images back
[10:30] <smartboyhw> MEH
[10:30] <cub> they are old, you can't support everything forever
[10:30] <smartboyhw> I'm sorry, I'm absolutely hatred of PPC.
[10:30] <smartboyhw> Takes long to build
[10:30] <smartboyhw> And FTBFS.
[10:30] <cub> bah, the first imacs are icons! :D
[10:31] <smartboyhw> And really, i386, armhf and amd64 are modern ones.
[10:31] <smartboyhw> This? 10 years ago.
[10:31] <zequence> I had a jack bug on PPC, and the devs told me - you must be the last one using PPC. There's little interest to fix those bugs. 
[10:31] <zequence> As long as they are used, there's a reason for supporting them
[10:31] <smartboyhw> BAH
[10:31] <smartboyhw> No.
[10:32] <zequence> i386 is not very modern though. i686 is even getting old
[10:32] <zequence> smartboyhw: Have you ever seen a i386 machine?
[10:32] <smartboyhw> zequence, but i386 is still actively developed in Atom and for smartphones
[10:32] <smartboyhw> zequence, no.
[10:32] <zequence> smartboyhw: i386 was used before you were born
[10:32] <smartboyhw> well sure, it should be called i686 now...
[10:32] <smartboyhw> Not i386 actually
[10:34] <zequence> not sure if you can use everything i386 on a i386 machine, but I'm sure there's a reason that label is still used. 
[10:34] <smartboyhw> zequence, uh, even the kernel doesn't support i386 now...
[10:34] <smartboyhw> It's just historical
[10:36] <smartboyhw> zequence, http://noskcaj10.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/announcing-the-testdrive-hackfest/ and http://smartboyhwubuntu.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/testdrive-hackfest/
[10:37] <smartboyhw> (Not a really safe hackfest since it's run by two 14-15 year olds:P)
[12:42] <micahg> smartboyhw: with modern ppc hardware, building is fast
[13:29] <OvenWerks> smartboyhw: zequence there is already an extra SW menu item that includes libreoffice.
[13:29] <zequence> OvenWerks: SW menu?
[13:30] <zequence> ..item
[13:30] <OvenWerks> Ya, in the office menu there is an item that will install lireoffice
[13:30] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh good
[13:30] <zequence> The question here is if we want to include Libre Office, partly, or as a whole to our workfflows
[13:30] <zequence> which would put it on the live DVD
[13:31] <smartboyhw> partly
[13:31] <OvenWerks> I would suggest that when/if we get studio to a place where the user can choose only the workflows they want at install time, then add libreoffice to the workflow that wants it.
[13:33] <zequence> It would end up on the live DVD nevertheless
[13:33] <zequence> as it includes all our worfklows
[13:33] <OvenWerks> Though I suppose even on a "tiny" 1/2 TB hard drive an office suite doesn't take much room...
[13:34] <OvenWerks> Does anyone actually use DVDs?
[13:34] <OvenWerks> :)
[13:34] <zequence> It's a live DVD image
[13:34] <zequence> Yes, I do believe a lot of people use them
[13:35] <zequence> I sometimes find it most simple, as one of my quite new PCs doesn't support booting from usb stick
[13:35] <OvenWerks> From the #ubuntustudio channel it seems 50/50.
[13:35] <zequence> Most newbies will just burn a DVD
[13:36] <zequence> The question of whether or not people use DVDs doesn't seem important for the choice of Libre Office
[13:36] <zequence> and if we include it in our workflows, it will end up on the live image
[13:36] <zequence> the live image is quite usable, as it is
[13:36] <OvenWerks> Yes. I think there will be room
[13:37] <zequence> We have plenty of room after all
[13:37] <zequence> 4.7GB is max. We don't need to aim for max, as it just makes things slower
[13:38] <OvenWerks> Besides even if we don't add any new software, things grow.
[13:38] <zequence> I'll fix the script for choosing workflows before 13.10. And that'll make installation faster, so size will matter less
[13:39] <smartboyhw> zequence, yeah!
[13:39] <zequence> I'll probably have plenty of time during DebConf. I won't be participating in all that much probably
[13:40] <smartboyhw> zequence, one question: When will madeinkobaia come back?
[13:40] <smartboyhw> I think it's time we start Artwork contests and such
[13:40] <zequence> He's back now
[13:41] <smartboyhw> zequence, \o/
[13:41] <zequence> He'll be focusing on the next wallpaper mostly
[13:41] <smartboyhw> Lubuntu started theirs already:)
[13:41] <smartboyhw> I mean, aren't we planning for a contest or something?
[13:41] <zequence> Don't know if we'll have a contest for the default wallpaper. Probably we'll just ask for contributions that we add
[13:41] <zequence> Don't think so
[13:42] <zequence> We'll be pushing towards a more unified artwork experience, and it'll be simpler if madeinkabaia works on the default wallpaper, not that he absolutely needs to
[13:42] <zequence> He's also working on Mish's icons
[13:43] <zequence> I did some work on them myself
[13:43] <OvenWerks> have they been moved to the menu package yet?
[13:43] <smartboyhw> zequence, ofc default is from madeinkobaia
[13:43] <smartboyhw> I mean we include others..
[13:43] <smartboyhw> :)
[13:43] <smartboyhw> Some of them in our G+ community are gorgeous, really:)
[13:43] <zequence> OvenWerks: No, me and madeinkobaia feel they need a bit more work. We'll try to get them done as soon as possible
[13:44] <OvenWerks> NP
[13:44] <zequence> I did some work on the colors, and they work quite nicely now
[13:44] <zequence> Some of the icons could be improved a bit, visually, such as the brush
[13:44] <OvenWerks> -installer shold get released sometime next week.
[13:45] <OvenWerks> Then I can work on changing the extra SW items over to use that.
[13:45] <zequence> OvenWerks: Ah, that's why you want the menu to depend on the installer
[13:45] <OvenWerks> yes
[13:46] <OvenWerks> xubuntu has been looking at LSC to replace USC
[13:46] <zequence> Probably the right choice, though I've had some problems with LSC myself
[13:46] <zequence> hope it works well
[13:46] <OvenWerks> I don't know if it is a final decision, just looking
[13:48]  * OvenWerks is off to work.
[13:50] <zequence> I got the Ubuntu Studio t-shirt today, and the mug is probably here already as well
[13:50] <zequence> I'll take a picture once I get the chance
[13:51] <zequence> the quality of the T-shirt is good, but I think we should offer a cheaper alternative too
[13:53] <smartboyhw> zequence, oh really?
[13:53] <smartboyhw> SHOW US
[14:03] <zequence> smartboyhw: I'll take a picture once I get a chance
[14:03] <smartboyhw> zequence, great.
[14:03] <smartboyhw> I'll be starting my process to apply for Kubuntu Developer BTW.
[14:03] <smartboyhw> :P
[14:04] <smartboyhw> See if I can be one of the youngest developers ever.
[14:06] <zequence> smartboyhw: You don't need to be in a team to be that. Just make sure to develop something
[14:06] <smartboyhw> zequence, I did package a LOT
[14:06] <smartboyhw> And I got the big boss to say "go for it" :P
[14:06] <zequence> packaging, if not from scratch is not so much development
[14:07] <zequence> just maintenance
[14:07] <smartboyhw> zequence, heh, don't think that "maintenance" is easy..........
[14:07] <zequence> If you make changes to the packages, that would be development
[14:07] <zequence> if you just update them, that is maintenance
[14:08] <smartboyhw> zequence, and changes:)
[14:08] <zequence> I'm just making a point smartboyhw 
[14:08] <smartboyhw> I think I did one package from scratch
[14:08] <smartboyhw> Forgotten which
[14:09] <zequence> In Ubuntu Studio, we don't do a lot of maintenance really
[14:09] <zequence> packaging overall, we don't do much
[14:09] <zequence> what we need is development work
[14:09] <zequence> improving things
[14:09] <zequence> having ideas, and making something out of them
[14:10] <zequence> not just doing what someone else tells you to do
[14:10] <zequence> see the difference?
[14:10] <zequence> being on a team is certainly something to be proud of
[14:10] <zequence> and maintenance is a very important job
[14:11] <zequence> but, you won't be a developer just by being on a team
[14:11] <zequence> having your own ideas requires experience
[14:11] <smartboyhw> zequence, ofc la
[14:11] <zequence> and maintenance will surely lead to that
[14:12] <zequence> takes years
[14:12] <zequence> smartboyhw: I'm not familiar with that abbreviation
[14:12] <smartboyhw> zequence, of course:
[14:12] <smartboyhw> :)
[14:12] <smartboyhw> LOL
[14:14] <zequence> smartboyhw: Just look at Len. He's not even a member of Ubuntu, and he's doing most of the development work for Ubuntu Studio
[14:15] <zequence> Or, at least in code, right now
[14:15] <zequence> He's not worried about teams. He cares about the work
[14:16] <smartboyhw> Nobody says I don't...
[14:16] <smartboyhw> The problem is I'm still not confident in code
[14:16] <zequence> You don't need to code to develop
[14:17] <zequence> you just need to have ideas, and work at realizing them
[14:17] <zequence> preferably, the ideas are of use for more than just yourself
[14:17] <smartboyhw> zequence, sure, it's like "I have ideas, I don't have confidence in them", really
[14:17] <smartboyhw> I'm sort of a realistic person when it comes to ideas
[14:18] <smartboyhw> For example, I want to write some apps myself for Ubuntu Touch
[14:18] <smartboyhw> Like a Planet Ubuntu app
[14:18] <smartboyhw> But I just don't know the code
[14:18] <smartboyhw> or howto code
[14:19] <smartboyhw> My ideas involve code
[14:19] <smartboyhw> Becuase I'm rather application-wise minded
[14:20] <zequence> It will come. Don't you study programming at all?
[14:21] <smartboyhw> zequence, I do.
[14:21] <smartboyhw> Very beginner.
[14:21] <smartboyhw> I don't even have time to study more deeper
[14:22] <zequence> Takes time, yeah
[14:22] <zequence> I have to go. See you around smartboyhw 
[14:22] <smartboyhw> zequence, see ya
[16:23] <holstein> !10.04