[09:22] <brobostigon> good morning eveyrone,
[09:27] <MartijnVdS> \o
[09:29] <brobostigon> morning MartijnVdS
[10:03] <MartijnVdS> heh, I wonder if this is right, or if someone Oopsed:
[10:03] <MartijnVdS> I dumped my graphics bios (intel_bios_dump), and am now reading it with intel_bios_read
[10:03] <MartijnVdS> The HDMI ports show:
[10:03] <MartijnVdS>                 Device type: 0x60d2 (DVI-D)
[10:03] <MartijnVdS>                 Info: DisplayPort
[10:03] <MartijnVdS> the DP port shows:
[10:03] <MartijnVdS>                 Device type: 0x60d6 (DisplayPort/HDMI/DVI)
[10:03] <MartijnVdS>                 Info: DVI
[11:03] <MartijnVdS> https://www.google.com/search?q=timer+10+seconds
[11:35] <penguin42> http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/08/03/android-bluetooth-exploit-for-japanese-toilet-brings-new-meaning-to-the-word-vulnerability/
[11:42] <MartijnVdS> oh the puns
[12:00] <shauno> I must confess, I don't quite understand why you'd want an app for your potty in the first place
[12:01] <penguin42> shauno: Indeed, or how you clean your phone after you use the app
[12:37] <SuperEngineer> a'noon peeps
[12:37] <SuperMatt> hulloooo
[12:37] <SuperEngineer> o/
[12:38] <penguin42> Hey Supers
[12:39] <SuperEngineer> hi penguin42 SuperMatt
[12:39] <SuperEngineer> the strangest coincidences happen sometimes...
[12:40] <SuperEngineer> just as some bloke called billy b deletes a g+ a/c - some strange person called Su Peren-Gineer opens one!
[12:40] <SuperEngineer> ;)
[12:41] <penguin42> let me guess, oddly they thought billy b wasn't a valid name?
[12:41]  * penguin42 expects Su Peren-Gineer to produce the passport etc
[12:41] <SuperEngineer> no - a long time ago they though "superengineer" & "super engineer" were not real!
[12:42] <SuperEngineer> oh revenge is a dish best served....
[12:42] <penguin42> who would doubt it?
[12:42] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: I had my Dr at the start of my G+ name and had to remove it
[12:43] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: lol
[12:43] <SuperEngineer> annoyingly, 1 week after I was notified superengineer wasn't "real" I found they then a private company called by same name abroad have it!!
[12:43] <SuperEngineer> again... oh revenge is a dish best served....
[12:44] <penguin42> and I'm fairly sure they added that rule years after I created my account
[12:44] <SuperEngineer> ditto here!
[12:44] <SuperEngineer> that's how G treat the early adopters - loyalty means nowt
[12:46] <daftykins> :o you're a Dr. Penguin? neat :)
[12:47] <SuperEngineer> [he meant to a dd a "who" after "Dr."?
[12:47] <daftykins> ugh leave that overrated series alone ¬_¬
[12:48] <SuperEngineer> daftykins: it's only over ratyed if you don't come from another planet... like what I do!
[12:48] <daftykins> oh that old chestnut :(
[12:48] <daftykins> i forgot you are our resident fruitcake!
[12:48] <ali1234> billy b chops?
[12:48] <ali1234> who would think this is not a valid name?
[12:49] <SuperEngineer> yup - old indeed - been telling people that evr since grammar school!
[12:51] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: it was super engineer / superengineer they claimed did not exist - yet they let this non-existent person know he didn't exist!
[12:51] <SuperEngineer> now who's crazy, eh, G+!
[12:51] <ali1234> i don't even
[12:54] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: Search doesn't find Su
[12:54] <SuperEngineer> daftykins: ...and proud of it - tho beware, I have been known for some exceptional wisdoms [& modesty]  ;)
[12:55] <SuperEngineer> hmm - how long before they catch up? yhey do say there is a lag showig up new a/cs
[12:55] <SuperEngineer> *they
[12:56] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: "Su" should show 100's of Sues etc surely?
[12:56] <SuperEngineer> try Peren-Gineer
[12:57] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: No, Peren-Gineer doesn't find anything
[12:57] <SuperEngineer> i would try myself but I doubt that would work from own a/c
[12:58] <SuperEngineer> ...in which case their warning is correct - may take a while
[12:58] <SuperEngineer> [unless they're looking thru name databases of all known countries for an Peren-Gineer of course!
[12:58] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: Give them a phone number and ask them to call you and put on a suitably fruity accent
[12:59] <SuperEngineer> ooo *that* might work!
[12:59] <SuperEngineer> -not-
[13:03]  * SuperEngineer wonders if G m,onitor this channel & are busy deleting me! - nah!!!!
[13:03] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: Well the channel is logged publicly , and google indexes it....
[13:05] <SuperEngineer> so.. dear G -  I can think of another monitoring orginisation beginning with "G" - hmmmmmm?
[13:06] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: Just wait until you get tax requests for Su
[13:07] <SuperEngineer> can't hurt more than my current ones!
[13:07] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: they already seem to think I should twice!
[13:07] <penguin42> that seems rather unfair
[13:07] <SuperEngineer> *pay twice
[13:08] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: your comment is more polite than the one I use every time a tax notify comes through letterbox!
[13:09] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: Is it a Buttle/Tuttle type screw up?
[13:09] <SuperEngineer> dunno
[13:10] <SuperEngineer> been in "frank discussions" with them over 2 years "discussing" my opinion of their tax codong - they still haven't sent a plain English explanation after 2 years
[13:11]  * SuperEngineer is slightly less than iompressed
[13:12] <penguin42> yeh there's absolutely no way of getting them to do anything sane as far as I can tell
[13:12] <SuperEngineer> agreed
[13:13]  * penguin42 spent some time a while ago sorting out when they screwed up and said I owed tax on interest on an account - which they only gave a few digits from; turned out to be an ISA I'd closed years before
[13:13] <SuperEngineer> athough a long while ago they added someone else's work to my a/c and I ended up having to threaten court action under several charges before they stopped
[13:13] <SuperEngineer> ..nearly time for a repeat of history methinks
[13:14] <penguin42> hth do you threaten court against the tax man?
[13:14] <SuperEngineer> ...a paranoid person might think this is them getting revenge]
[13:14] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: very politely & professionally
[13:14] <ali1234> a council once tried to take me to court over unpaid council tax
[13:14] <ali1234> first i heard about it was the summons
[13:15] <ali1234> i sent thema copy of the receipt for tax paid and a notice i would contest the charge
[13:15] <ali1234> they rapidly cancelled the summons and dropped the complaint
[13:15] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: in the days of poll tax I was a regular reader of Computer Weekly reg [was a programmer then] -0
[13:16] <SuperEngineer> ..it gave me the exact state of chaos of my local tax office pootersa every week
[13:16] <SuperEngineer> held back paymeny until last moment as passive protest - without danger ;)
[13:17] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: surprising how the stance of a persomn in the right - with proof of being right - frightens them
[13:18] <ali1234> it's not surprising at al
[13:18] <SuperEngineer> :)
[13:18] <ali1234> i find it is the best way to deal with bureaucracy
[13:18] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: +1
[13:18] <ali1234> if you are in the right, don't expend any more effort than necessary
[13:19] <ali1234> just give them enough rope to hang themselves with
[13:19] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: again +1 to that as well
[13:20] <SuperEngineer> So... anyone know if Leisure Suoite
[13:20] <SuperEngineer> damn!
[13:20] <ali1234> i got similar nonsense from the tv licensing people actually... at a different place though
[13:20] <ali1234> they claimed that i had to pay two tv licenses for 123A and 123B
[13:20] <ali1234> there was no A and B of course
[13:20] <ali1234> i just totally ignored that one
[13:21] <daftykins> 0o
[13:21] <daftykins> TV licensing is pretty frustrating
[13:21] <ali1234> since the letters didn't have my name on, just "the occupier" - to acknowledge them would validate their claim that those addresses actually existed
[13:21] <daftykins> indeed
[13:21] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: that made me literally lol!
[13:22] <ali1234> it makes me wonder though, how many vulnerable people with poor memory are paying TV license twice because of the scare tactics they use
[13:23] <penguin42> ali1234: Same with the tax guys - people get a letter saying they owe so much money on particular accounts, all looks official - then you start digging and find it's rubbish
[13:24] <ali1234> i've never had a problem with HMRC... yet
[13:24] <daftykins> our local tax is terrible
[13:24] <daftykins> take 5+ months to respond to letters calling out their mistakes
[13:25] <penguin42> ali1234: Lucky you
[13:29] <SuperEngineer> Thankyou for calling HMRC. Press 0 if you are calling about an ongoing problem. Now press 1 if it has been ongoing for 1 year, press 2 if it has been ongoing for 2 years, press 3...
[13:29] <penguin42> press z if you want to wait for another year
[13:29] <SuperEngineer> oh if only
[13:31] <SuperEngineer> On the bright side - you all owe me a vote of thanks for paying off the national debt all by myself
[13:33]  * penguin42 thought he was doing that
[13:33] <daftykins> not my government, sorry
[13:33] <SuperEngineer> no politics!
[13:34] <daftykins> i'm just saying i can't thank you when it's not my gov :)
[13:37] <ali1234> you know that rubbery coating then use on phones etc? what is it called?
[13:37] <ali1234> and why does it melt after a couple of years?
[13:38] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: it's called "notfireproofsodontleavemebytheheaterplease"
[13:38] <ali1234> it doesn't melt from heat
[13:38] <ali1234> it seems to react badly with skin oils
[13:38] <SuperEngineer> ooo - cold hands! - VAMPIRE ALERT
[13:39] <SuperEngineer> ;)
[13:39] <daftykins> eww
[13:39] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: skin  oils?  basic design flaw if so
[13:39] <ali1234> basically it dissolves into something roughly the same as when a rubber band melts into good
[13:39] <ali1234> yeah so what i want to do is find out what the hell the stuff is so i can find some other chemical to clean it off before it goes bad
[13:40] <penguin42> ali1234: I guess it's some kind of mixture of stuff and they eventually separate
[13:40] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: isopropyl alcohol?
[13:40] <ali1234> nope, doesn't work
[13:40] <ali1234> acetone works but damages the plastic underneath
[13:40] <SuperEngineer> [only guessing - not sure]
[13:41] <ali1234> when it goes bad it has the consistency of chewed chewing gum
[13:41] <SuperEngineer> olive oil?
[13:41] <SuperEngineer> ...with care
[13:41] <ali1234> maybe
[13:41] <MartijnVdS> you want to get rid of oils
[13:41] <penguin42> then soap?
[13:41] <ali1234> soap doesn't work
[13:42] <SuperEngineer> yup - that's how the Romans knew it cleared yukky stuff - but the oil needs removing cleaning
[13:42]  * penguin42 can see ali1234 taking his phone into the shop to be repaired and the tech smelling it
[13:42] <alistair> hello, there was a midi module different to snd-virmidi (which doesnt work once installed) which gives 16 internal midi through channels, does anybody know what it is called?
[13:42] <ali1234> it's never a problem on phones inside warranty
[13:42] <ali1234> it takes about 6-8 years to go bad
[13:43] <ali1234> but they are using it on everything these days
[13:43] <ali1234> i've got an electric drill which has it on the andle which is starting to go
[13:43] <MartijnVdS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_fuel :)
[13:44] <SuperEngineer> on a drill handle try wet&dry / glass paper?
[13:44] <SuperEngineer> no delicates nearby to damage
[13:44] <ali1234> http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=159815.0
[13:44] <ali1234> ^ people describe the issue
[13:45] <ali1234> yeah sand paper doesn't work... it's like trying to sand paper chewing gum
[13:45] <ali1234> it just clogs the paper
[13:45]  * SuperEngineer scrubs that idea then
[13:45] <ali1234> the only way i know to get it off is to scrape it off with a knife and that still takes ages
[13:46] <SuperEngineer> Lixton fluid?
[13:46] <MartijnVdS> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_make_sticky_rubber_normal
[13:46] <penguin42> haha reference to Andromeda Strain
[13:46] <SuperEngineer> ;)
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> http://www.howtocleanstuff.net/how-to-remove-a-sticky-surface-from-rubber/
[13:47] <ali1234> i wish they wouldn't use this stuff, whatever it is
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: urethane rubber
[13:47] <SuperEngineer> Lixton fluid  =  real good at cleaning things like rubberised / synthesised rubberised products to remove all yuk
[13:47] <penguin42> I think I'd try and coat over it
[13:47] <ali1234> hmm so basically, ammonia
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: and even then it's only temporary
[13:48] <ali1234> it's not
[13:48] <ali1234> i have a few things which i have entirely stripped the coating off
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> it's not?
[13:48] <ali1234> underneath it's normal plastic
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> sure
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> but you can't "fix" the rubber
[13:48] <ali1234> i don't want to
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> not permanently anyway
[13:48] <ali1234> i want to remove it
[13:49] <ali1234> entirely
[13:49] <ali1234> the rubber is only a very very thin coating, probaby less than 0.1mm
[13:50] <ali1234> it serves no purpose at all other than to make the product feel like it is higher quality than it actually is
[13:50] <SuperEngineer> Lixton fluid  =  real good at cleaning things like rubberised / synthesised rubberised products to remove all yukthen
[13:50] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: change the casing - add external casing? forget the bad design underneath
[13:50] <SuperEngineer> ..or would that make phone /drill unuseable?
[13:51] <ali1234> pretty much
[13:51] <SuperEngineer> darn
[13:51] <MartijnVdS> replace the rubber with sugru :P
[13:52] <neuro> boing
[13:52] <ali1234> another example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12Pw8vHjgcw
[13:53] <neuro> of?
[13:53] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: a few years back I was on a course...
[13:53] <ali1234> neuro: melty rubber coating
[13:53] <neuro> ew, i'm *eating*
[13:54] <SuperEngineer> was related a tale about cleaning certain things [can't say]
[13:54] <ali1234> this guy sanded his mouse down
[13:54] <neuro> [stealth bombers]
[13:54] <penguin42> poor thing
[13:54] <ali1234> there should be a way to remove the rubber without damaging the plastic underneath
[13:54] <SuperEngineer> ...they sent a samble off to labs and asked for ways to clean without destroying
[13:55] <ali1234> i mean if the rubber is dissolving but the plastic underneath is fine, then there must be some solvent which will dissolve the rubber properly without harming the plastic
[13:55] <SuperEngineer> ...a long chemical formula was returned as the required "cleaner". response was - but what is that?
[13:55] <SuperEngineer> Mr Sheen cleaner!
[13:56] <SuperEngineer> ..idea: if you get the one with hard bits in , it might remove the rubber stuff
[13:56] <neuro> disgusting!
[13:56] <ali1234> i keep finding more and more stuff with this rubbery crap on it now i'm actually looking
[13:57] <ali1234> and nearly all of it is starting to go sticky
[13:57] <penguin42> definitely the andromeda strain
[13:57] <ali1234> the volume control knob on my speakers
[13:57] <ali1234> a load of pens with rubbery grips
[13:58] <ali1234> the nexus 7 back cover even has it
[13:58] <ali1234> that's not old enough to be melting yet
[13:58] <ali1234> but it will
[13:58] <penguin42> you probably find it's contagious - you transfer the goo off one of them to another via your hands and that starts the other one leaching
[13:58] <ali1234> very likely
[13:58] <SuperEngineer> ...and some car dashboard knobs have it
[13:58] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: and then the tyres....
[13:58] <ali1234> yeah that's the thing
[13:59] <ali1234> actual rubber objects seem unaffected
[13:59] <ali1234> only plastic objects with the thin coating seem affected
[13:59] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: you're driving far enough if your tyres desolves before wearing out!  ;)
[13:59] <ali1234> it could be because the thin layer easily breaks down
[13:59] <ali1234> or it could be a different type of rubber
[14:00] <ali1234> leather seems to accelerate the breakdown
[14:00] <ali1234> ie using a leather case on a phone
[14:00] <neuro> dammit
[14:00] <neuro> stupid kernel updates
[14:01] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: surely that's the friction effect with the leather outer?
[14:01] <ali1234> outer?
[14:01] <SuperEngineer> outer = case
[14:02] <SuperEngineer> [soz]
[14:02]  * penguin42 decides to finish off his sorbet, I don't think it's going to get warm again
[14:02] <ali1234> hmm maybe
[14:02] <ali1234> or it could be something to do with the tanning process, or it could even be fake plastic leather leeching chemicals
[14:02] <ali1234> latter probably more likely
[14:02] <SuperEngineer> agreed
[14:02]  * neuro sighs
[14:03] <daftykins> aww what's up neuro?
[14:03] <neuro> brought up my irc proxy vm
[14:03] <neuro> after migrating it to a new iscsi datastore
[14:03] <neuro> and it needed a kernel update :P
[14:03] <neuro> so had to do a reboot there
[14:04] <neuro> hence the grumble and discon/recon
[14:04] <neuro> but oh how i love esxi :)
[14:04] <daftykins> ^_^
[14:04] <daftykins> you run one at home?
[14:04] <neuro> two
[14:05] <neuro> but i've migrated everything off local datastores onto a synology nas iscsi target
[14:05] <neuro> so i can shut one down
[14:05] <neuro> electricity-- ftw
[14:06] <daftykins> two at home, crikey
[14:06] <SuperEngineer> whoops - promised neighbour I'd go for a drink with - see yazall in an hour[ish] folkjs
[14:06] <daftykins> what are you running there :P
[14:06] <daftykins> SuperEngineer: hf
[14:07] <neuro> daftykins: not much: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13137/grabs/Screen%20Shot%202013-08-04%20at%2015.06.09.png
[14:07] <daftykins> :)
[14:07] <daftykins> nice little testbed i see
[14:07] <neuro> not really
[14:07] <daftykins> no?
[14:08] <daftykins> also i don't think you've got enough in the system tray
[14:08] <neuro> cochrane is my irc proxy and LAN dhcpd, copernicus is an old test win98 vm, fearless is my old mail server, hathaway is my server config master host and BT ingress box, intrepid is my general shell box and Sky ingress box, memoryalpha is me thinking about replacing intrepid, shenandoah ... no idea what that was ;) and wormhole-gw is my main pfsense router for the house
[14:10] <neuro> so it's more production that lab
[14:10] <neuro> s/that/than/
[14:10] <daftykins> what are the physical systems hosting them?
[14:10] <neuro> my old one is a dell dimension 5150 (Pentium D 2.8GHz, 4G RAM but only 3.2G visible)
[14:11] <neuro> the main one is some random zoostorm thing off ebuyer, Pentium G840 2.8GHz, 16G RAM
[14:11] <neuro> intel dual GigE NIC on the old one, three intel GigE NICs on the new one, internal NICs disabled on both
[14:11] <neuro> and now a synology ds213j acting as datastore
[14:12] <neuro> which is nice </fastshow>
[14:13] <daftykins> :)
[14:13] <daftykins> pretty elaborate stuff for home
[14:14] <neuro> not in my opinion
[14:14] <neuro> elaborate would have been to spend 500 quid on vsphere starter edition and built up a proper cluster
[14:14] <daftykins> well i've got a file server that runs VMs, but it's a single box with vmware workstation atop it
[14:14] <penguin42> neuro: Are you multipathing the iscsi?
[14:14] <neuro> yeah, i didn't want my VMs to have a lot of OS underneath them
[14:14] <daftykins> having two boxes sounds like you're going for redundancy too XD
[14:14] <neuro> penguin42: not to my knowledge, no
[14:15] <neuro> daftykins: it's just a timeline thing
[14:15] <neuro> have been running the old dell since ~ 2009
[14:15] <neuro> got the zoostorm last year
[14:15] <neuro> always wanted to transition from one to t'other
[14:15] <neuro> only really got the impetus to do it now
[14:15] <neuro> also cheap nas
[14:16] <neuro> now i can turn off the old one for the first time in about 4 years (power cut in april notwithstanding)
[14:16] <daftykins> :)
[14:18] <neuro> in fact i've just powered it off
[14:18] <neuro> \o/
[14:18] <daftykins> you want a UPS there :)
[14:18] <neuro> heh yeah
[14:18] <penguin42> neuro: I got one of those zoostorm's for my dad - not bad for the price
[14:19] <neuro> penguin42: they're rubbish
[14:19] <neuro> the RAM was bad from the get go
[14:19] <neuro> didn't care that much as I was replacing it anyway
[14:19] <neuro> and the hard drive is failing
[14:19] <daftykins> 0o
[14:19] <neuro> which is partly why i wanted the VMs off the local storage
[14:19] <penguin42> neuro: Oh I think one of the DIMMs had bounced in transit - was fine when I pushed it back in
[14:19] <neuro> now i can replace the HDD with the 500G WD Black I bought at same time as NAS
[14:19] <neuro> do a full reinstall of ESXi
[14:20] <neuro> and then re-add the VMs to inventory from the iSCSI target
[14:20] <daftykins> heh, yeah that's generally how it works ;)
[14:20] <neuro> penguin42: no, they were *bad*, i.e. proper bad, i.e. failed a memtest
[14:21] <neuro> daftykins: wouldn't have minded so much, as my important data (like homedirs etc) gets mounted onto my VMs over NFS from my other NASes
[14:21] <neuro> but it would cause my router VM to cark it every couple of weeks
[14:21] <neuro> lots of weird disk timeout errors on the esxi logs
[14:22] <neuro> so that's the point where i really got driven to migrating everything onto network storage, and consolidate the VMs on one machine
[14:22] <neuro> but the replacing HDD job shall wait until next w/e :)
[14:23]  * neuro spies a fellow he.net tunnelbroker user :)
[14:23] <neuro> 2001:470:1f09:... ;)
[15:44]  * penguin42 goes through a ubuntu-kernel config - are there ANY ubuntu arcnet users?
[15:45] <penguin42> and calxeda drivers built on x86
[16:04] <penguin42> gah I searched for a spare part for my dads razor and now I've got a spare part site offering me entirely random sets of spares for anything
[16:07] <daftykins> :(
[16:07] <daftykins> so many spammy sites that waste your time when trying to do such things now
[16:07] <daftykins> like those google results that link to somebody searching for <x> on their site ¬_¬
[16:08] <penguin42> nod
[16:08] <penguin42> to be fair I think the site did actually have the thing I wanted - but more than amazon so I bought it from amazon
[16:08] <penguin42> but now they're going to try and sell me it for months
[16:10] <neuro> it's the sites that purport to have loads of user manuals on them that wind me up
[16:12] <daftykins> ah yes
[16:17] <neuro> edge is now $5.9m off the pace :(
[16:18] <penguin42> neuro: Just have to see if Mark puts the remainder in at the end
[16:18] <neuro> ha
[16:18] <penguin42> ...or the devs employed on it
[16:18] <neuro> "New tier: sabdfl-only tier, $32m - $however_much_is_in_the_kitty"
[16:19] <daftykins> someone was saying he'd end up putting in tonnes even if it hit the limit
[16:19] <daftykins> so he can't really finish it himself
[16:20] <neuro> 25% raised with 41% campaign time passed
[16:20] <daftykins> still crawling along i see
[16:20] <neuro> if it completes, it vindicates the choice of crowdfunding
[16:21] <neuro> if it fails and nothing happens afterwards, it says crowdfunding was a bad choice
[16:21] <neuro> if it fails and sabdfl funds the shortfall, it still says crowdfunding was a bad choice
[16:21] <daftykins> would it not be more of a reflection on the product?
[16:21] <neuro> i don't think so
[16:21] <penguin42> neuro: Well the other question to ask is where the $32M figure came from
[16:21] <neuro> there's plenty of interest in the phone
[16:21] <neuro> exactly
[16:22] <neuro> there's been no real breakdown or explanation as to how the money would be spent
[16:22] <neuro> other than "it'll all go to make the phones" (paraphrase)
[16:22] <neuro> and imho the campaign has been badly mishandled
[16:22] <neuro> with all these random tiers being introduced at odd times
[16:22] <neuro> and the t-shirts ... *facepalm*
[16:24] <neuro> oh and the best bit, if they make $32m on the nose, they won't really have $32m in hand (indiegogo fees aside)
[16:24] <penguin42> why?
[16:24] <neuro> because they're refunding the difference between the $830 cost and the lower cost
[16:24] <penguin42> neuro: I mean I assume there was some slack in it to ensure they had enough to do what they wanted
[16:25] <neuro> but we have no idea
[16:25] <neuro> because there's no outline of how the funding will be deployed
[16:25] <daftykins> almost time for LAS
[16:26] <neuro> and it seems (but it's not clear) that only those who bought the $3830 perk *before* the graduated tier limit was introduced will get refunded
[16:26] <neuro> so if you buy an $830 one now, you won't get anything back
[16:26] <neuro> it's all very confusing
[16:26] <penguin42> neuro: I guess some of it is rightly commercially confidential - like how much you have to pay to factories to make things or design whatever
[16:26] <neuro> but they have a "habit of openness and transparency"
[16:27] <neuro> it's all very weird to me
[16:27] <penguin42> yeh but I can see there being limits to that; you wouldn't put peoples salaries up there and you couldn't put how much you were prepared to pay vendors because then you couldn't negotiate for cheaper
[16:28] <neuro> you can guesstimate though
[16:28] <neuro> but that's all we can do
[16:28] <neuro> and do you really think they don't already have a manufacturer lined up?
[16:29] <neuro> "we have experienced operators and manufacturing partners in place"
[16:29] <neuro> "We’ve been working with manufacturers and carriers, so everything we need is already in place. We also have a team based in Taiwan where the bulk of the production will occur"
[16:29] <neuro> they don't need to bid amongst manus to get cheaper pricing
[16:29] <neuro> they know who they're working with
[16:29] <neuro> so they'll know the costs
[16:30] <neuro> otherwise, why stick a finger in the air and say "ummmm ... $32m?"
[16:30] <penguin42> it's a power of 2?
[16:30] <neuro> i really don't want to fund a manufacturing project with a product as an end goal that makes geek jokes out of the funding level, especially at *that* amount :)
[16:31] <neuro> i don't know ... as much as I like Canonical and want them to succeed at all things, especially Ubuntu-related ones, I think this is a clusterfrak waiting to happen
[16:32] <penguin42> neuro: Not sure, I mean they're going high spec so it'll certainly push some tech along so that could be good - I won't be buying one because I'm too mean
[16:32] <neuro> i won't be buying one because I prefer the iOS ecosystem, and I don't have the spare cash to blow on a phone just to play on
[16:32] <neuro> if I'm buying a phone now, I'm buying it to use every day
[16:33] <neuro> been burned by buying random phones in the past (hello Nokia E71, Samsung Galaxy S2)
[16:33] <daftykins> what was wrong with the S2? they seem quite capable smartphones even toda
[16:33] <daftykins> y
[16:33]  * penguin42 has an £80 android phone
[16:33] <neuro> hated it
[16:34] <neuro> screen too unwieldy, too plasticky, battery life awful, nasty OS, etc etc
[16:35] <daftykins> hah
[16:35] <neuro> oh, and syncing to/from my mac with kies was a total joke
[16:35] <daftykins> it's had a fair few updates of android over the years
[16:36] <daftykins> if you tried to use their software to sync rather than the native device accounts, then you're kinda asking for trouble
[16:36] <neuro> um, ok?
[16:36] <neuro> that's a bad indictment of the ecosytem then, isn't it?
[16:36] <daftykins> unless it was just files, like music you were syncing
[16:37] <neuro> "buy this awesome phone, but don't use the manufacturer supplied PC/Mac software"
[16:37] <neuro> it was all sorts of stuff including some music
[16:37] <daftykins> no it's not, because Samsung Kies has nothing to do with Android
[16:37] <neuro> but it has everything to do with a Samsung Galaxy S2
[16:37] <neuro> how is Average Joe Phone User supposed to tell the difference?
[16:38] <daftykins> i think they'd be more inclined to just paste to the folders :)
[16:38] <neuro> not if they're told otherwise
[16:38] <neuro> e.g. by the instruction manual, the phone, the manufacturer ...
[16:39] <daftykins> i don't tend to consider inexperienced users
[16:39] <neuro> then you're being selective to suit the needs of your argument
[16:39] <daftykins> and you're not by choosing a user type to begin with?
[16:39] <neuro> i was pointing out the most common type of user
[16:39] <daftykins> also it's a discussion not an argument :D
[16:40] <neuro> argument. n. A fact or statement used to support a proposition; a reason.
[16:40] <daftykins> seems a bit extreme to get down to dictionary definitions
[16:40] <neuro> i didn't say we were having *a* argument :)
[16:41] <daftykins> true
[16:41] <neuro> you're twisting the meaning of the word, it seemed a reasonable thing to do
[16:41] <daftykins> we've somewhat tangented now though
[16:41] <neuro> well, *you* did ;)
[16:41] <neuro> making me use wiktionary for goodness sake ;)
[16:41] <daftykins> ultimately i think a judgement of a phone based on one poor software utility it comes with that might be useful for some uses is a bit weak
[16:41]  * neuro sighs
[16:42] <daftykins> problem? :)
[16:42] <Myrtti> "I will not buy non-Nexus Android devices. I will not buy non-Nexus Android devices. I will not buy non-Nexus Android devices." etc.
[16:42] <neuro> kies being crap was one data point from many
[16:42] <neuro> or did you not read what I wrote?
[16:42] <daftykins> oh yeah you did have other things
[16:42] <neuro> "screen too unwieldy, too plasticky, battery life awful, nasty OS, etc etc"
[16:42] <daftykins> Myrtti: too true
[16:42] <Myrtti> (main reason why I don't is because I loathe the extra stuff the manufacturers smack on the Android, like the necessity of using stupid apps to do interaction between phone and computer
[16:42] <Myrtti> )
[16:43] <neuro> Myrtti: it was a good deal at the time
[16:43] <penguin42> Myrtti: I put cyanogenmod on my cheap phone - actually that's one reason I bought it
[16:43] <daftykins> android back then is quite different to android today
[16:43] <neuro> i wanted a non-personal phone to use for business stuff
[16:43] <neuro> ended up upgrading to an iphone 4s and using my old iphone 4 for that purpose
[16:44] <daftykins> i could never get on with iOS, it's pretty terrible at feedback
[16:46] <neuro> feedback?
[16:46] <daftykins> yeah, like whether it's working on a process or not
[16:47] <neuro> um
[16:47] <neuro> ok?
[16:47] <daftykins> you're pretty rude neuro.
[16:47] <neuro> i'm not, you're just being economical with the things you're saying :)
[16:47] <daftykins> sometimes it'll just sit there like you didn't do anything, then maybe flash an error ages afterwards if you're for example - setting up an email account or something similar
[16:48] <daftykins> same with a lot of OS X software in fact
[16:48] <daftykins> there's very little visual representation that it's 'working'
[16:49] <neuro> i just set up a mail account on my phone
[16:50] <neuro> i got a spinner with text telling me what it was doing when it was doing stuff
[16:50] <neuro> "Verifying ..."
[16:50] <neuro> "Adding account ..."
[16:50] <daftykins> hah
[16:50] <neuro> and usually when there is network activity while it's doing Stuff, a spinner appears in the top status bar
[16:51] <daftykins> depends what OS versions we're talking i guess
[16:51] <neuro> hah?
[16:51] <neuro> whatever the latest greatest is
[16:51] <neuro> it's always done that IME
[16:51] <daftykins> well surely you can see the futility of that one comparison
[16:51] <neuro> nope?
[16:52] <daftykins> seriously?
[16:52] <neuro> enlighten me then?
[16:52] <daftykins> i don't know, i'm not sure that that would be a valid use of time
[16:52] <neuro> so you're telling me i'm wrong because you say so?
[16:52] <daftykins> ultimately it boils down to the 'it works for me'
[16:53] <neuro> excuse me while i don't put much weight on that :)
[16:53] <neuro> you said the feedback was terrible
[16:53] <neuro> i just ran through the scenario you mentioned
[16:53] <neuro> the feedback seemed acceptable (yes, to me)
[16:53] <Myrtti> so, who's awaiting for the new doctor then?
[16:53] <neuro> i'm not sure how much more feedback would have been required
[16:54] <daftykins> neuro: right but you're making a big jump to assume that what you're seeing is what i was seeing in my example
[16:54] <daftykins> neuro: if you were working on a bug tracker would you tell all the people that their bugs are invalid because it 'works for me' ? :P
[16:54] <neuro> sure, but i'm not sure how much different it could have been to be honest
[16:55] <neuro> it would depend how many people responded with "works for me"
[16:55] <neuro> and that's sometimes a valid response, as it permits responders and the submitter to work in different directions to find out what the root cause is, since it's either a non-repeatable issue or something wrong with the submitter's system
[16:56] <neuro> s/repeatable/reproducable/ is what i meant to say there
[16:56] <Myrtti> no one?
[16:56] <neuro> Myrtti: couldn't care less tbh
[16:56] <daftykins> Myrtti: not a fan i'm afraid
[16:56] <neuro> i've gone right off who lately
[16:56] <Myrtti> so a duck walked into a pub
[16:56] <daftykins> quack.
[16:56] <neuro> especially with their DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUN end to the last episode
[16:56] <neuro> LET'S PUT TEXT ALL OVER THE SCREEN, THAT WILL BE AWESOME
[16:56] <neuro> childish
[16:57] <daftykins> 0o
[16:57] <daftykins> you are an odd one
[16:57] <neuro> excuse me?
[16:57] <Myrtti> and the barkeep asked what he wanted, and the duck said a beer please
[16:58] <Myrtti> having served the beer to the duck he asked "how are you going to pay for it, you don't have pockets for the money"
[16:58] <Myrtti> "put it on my bill"
[16:58] <neuro> saw that coming a mile away :D
[16:58] <Myrtti> yeah, that was kinda the point
[16:58] <neuro> daftykins: please do elaborate on why i'm "odd"
[16:59] <neuro> Myrtti: a horse walks into a bar
[16:59] <daftykins> probably safer if i leave it there
[16:59] <Myrtti> a photon walks into a hotel
[16:59] <daftykins> plus LAS has almost started
[16:59] <neuro> no, really
[16:59] <neuro> i'm interested
[17:00] <Myrtti> "do you have any luggage, sir?" "no, I'm traveling light"
[17:00] <neuro> ha
[17:00] <penguin42> neuro: Actually, the horse walked into a macdonalds: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-23403935
[17:00] <neuro> what the ...
[17:01] <neuro> why not tie up the horses and go inside?
[17:01] <neuro> were they planning on eating their mcdonalds while riding away from the drive through?!
[17:01] <daftykins> it was a complaint about the policy regarding drive-throughs
[17:01] <daftykins> because you have to be in a car, which is quite frankly retarded
[17:01] <Myrtti> so a motorbike wouldn't be allowed then?
[17:02] <neuro> the drive through lane is for motor vehicles
[17:02] <daftykins> motorbikes aren't allowed either from what i remember reading, nah
[17:02] <neuro> some mcdonalds now have the lanes blocked off on the other side from the restaurant by parts of the car prk
[17:02] <daftykins> i only briefly encountered this thing when i was at Uni
[17:02] <daftykins> 'cause we don't have mcdonalds etc. down here
[17:03] <daftykins> so i thought to myself once, hey why does the drive-through stay open later? can i cycle over and queue up? apparently not
[17:03] <daftykins> never tried though
[17:03] <neuro> http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/ukhome/whatmakesmcdonalds/questions/running-the-business/drive-thru/why-cant-you-serve-pedestrians-at-the-drive-thru.html
[17:04] <neuro> and yes, they serve people on bikes and mopeds
[17:04] <neuro> just not pedestrians or bicycles
[17:04] <neuro> or horses
[17:07] <daftykins> pretty daft imo
[17:07] <neuro> not really
[17:07] <neuro> insurance rationale most likely
[17:07] <neuro> the hassle if someone got hit by a car in the drive through lane would likely be epic
[17:08] <neuro> best just to have it laid down by policy that you can only be served from a motor vehicle
[17:08] <daftykins> it's common sense daft
[17:08] <daftykins> not bureacratic crap daft
[17:08] <neuro> it's common sense, full stop
[17:08] <daftykins> :)
[17:08] <daftykins> hah
[17:08] <daftykins> wow you really are a one.
[17:08] <daftykins> k i'm off to other channels
[17:08] <neuro> what's your deal, sir?
[17:08] <neuro> are you trolling me or something?
[17:10] <neuro> clearly, the answer was "yes"
[17:12] <daftykins> lmao
[17:23] <penguin42> apparently they were worried that horses might be startled by the motor vehicles
[17:52] <shauno> a bit late to the party, but I used to walk-thru kfc's drive-thru
[18:03] <penguin42> so we have reference data for mcdonalds and kfc - any others?
[18:03] <penguin42> shauno: Did you try it on a horse?
[18:18] <shauno> insufficiently equipped for the task I'm afraid
[18:24] <daftykins> horses=0
[18:26] <SuperEngineer> ...and the new Dr. Who is.... @linus_torvalds - & will be known as "the swearing Dr". [just pipped Mark Shuttleworth! at the post apparently]
[18:33] <ali1234> i would watch that
[18:34] <ali1234> it's the guy from luther though right?
[18:36] <MooDoo> lol
[18:38] <ali1234> i guess not
[18:42]  * penguin42 wiggles finger wildly trying to get something to crash on a touchscreen
[18:43] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: take that finger out of there of there you naughty person!
[18:43] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: But I was making my (x)eyes go crosseyed!
[18:43] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: :D
[18:46] <SuperEngineer> Has anyone tried Leisure Suite Larry on Steam in Ubuntu yet?
[18:47]  * penguin42 notes IMDBs entry for Peter Capaldi states that in World War Z he played the W.H.O. Doctor
[18:47] <SuperEngineer> [as in - does it l=play or would I be wasting my pennies?]
[18:47] <SuperEngineer> *play
[18:48] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: that's good/clever research. like it!
[18:49] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: You have to wonder if they knew that when they cast him
[18:49] <ali1234> i still can't figure out what was supposed to have happened in the last two series
[18:53] <penguin42> ali1234: You weren't supposed to , you were just supposed to have watched it
[18:54] <ali1234> i feel like i missed an episode
[18:54] <ali1234> or several
[18:56] <ali1234> actually come to think of it's been that way since david tennant
[18:57] <neuro> can't wait for all the kiddies to go googling for peter capaldi ... this is the first video that shows up in the results: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjAyazqtQj8
[18:57] <neuro> danger, tis a malcolm tucker video
[18:57] <neuro> hence VERY VERY sweary
[18:57] <neuro> but VERY VERY good
[18:59] <neuro> for less sweariness, i leave you with the happy plane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zVVKXT8Vi0
[20:22] <directhex> hm, neil gaiman retweets ubuntu edge
[20:23] <directhex> that's gotta be worth a few thou
[21:10] <bigcalm> Good evening peeps :)