[01:54] <skellat> pleia2 unit193 knome: We have the claim being made in a comment posted to LP Bug 1208250 that we don't have Mir as Mir isn't in the images on cdimages.u.c.  We're not using the images from cdimages.u.c in this case, though.  Could somebody please follow up and adjust this?
[02:41] <Unit193> skellat: You can get the data if you ssh -X the thing.
[02:42] <skellat> Unit193: :-) Yeah, but that presumes networking functioned.  Even the netbook which brought it up somewhat stable graphics-wise couldn't function network-wise even with Cat5 plugged in.
[02:42] <Unit193> Bleh.
[02:42] <skellat> Both times I ran it the machine concerned fell off the in-house net
[02:43] <skellat> So, yeah, I woulda needed the serial console to extract anything
[02:45] <Unit193> I'd suppose it might be the same for the others, which would require an installed system.
[02:52] <Unit193> Bug report back to new.
[03:20] <skellat> LP 1208242 is apparently a duplicate
[03:21] <skellat> LP 1208250 continues as an existing bug
[04:02] <pleia2> yeah, I did my best to sync up with existing bug reports but some of them were a bit difficult to parse
[04:07] <Unit193> pleia2: No more xubuntu for the day! ;)
[04:08] <pleia2> Unit193: yeah, I am bad at breaks
[13:20] <smartboyhw> Hey Xubuntu people
[13:20] <smartboyhw> I was going through the list of new bugs for Ubuntu
[13:20] <smartboyhw> When I saw Bug 1208243
[13:20] <smartboyhw> So, please act on this bug:)
[13:26] <elfy> does it need to be in?
[13:26] <lderan> its not in 13.04 either
[13:26] <elfy> I see no need to have it by default
[13:26] <elfy> better to have unetbootin 
[13:26] <elfy> that works
[13:27] <GridCube> http://www.webupd8.org/2013/08/xubuntu-1310-xmir-iso-available-for.html
[13:27] <GridCube> why in the ISO tho?
[13:27] <GridCube> if you can boot into the iso... you dont need it...
[13:28] <elfy> exactly
[13:28] <elfy> bug should be marked wishlist imo
[13:28] <lderan> agreed
[13:51] <ganglere1> Is there a windows version of test drive? I'd like to run a test case while at work.
[13:51] <ganglere1> Guess I could just download the iso manually...
[13:52] <smartboyhw> ganglere1, Windows version?
[13:52] <smartboyhw> Hmm...
[13:53] <smartboyhw> Good idea.....
[14:20] <davmor2> ganglere1: No as I understand it, it was primarily designed to run under kvm which isn't support on windows.  It maybe that now it supports more backends they could create a version but I doubt it is high on their goals
[14:25] <ganglere1> davmor2: I use it with virtualbox at home, which I also have installed at work, but I felt silly as soon as I realized I could just download the iso myself.
[14:27] <davmor2> ganglere1: yeah as I say initially it only supported kvm iirc, then vbox support was added as it was the backend that most people were using to test on because of the 3d support. So it might be that it could have a windows client built I just doubt it.
[14:33] <mati75> hello
[14:34] <ganglere1> mati75: hi
[14:37] <mati75> I'll testing xubuntu with xmir
[14:43] <GridCube> mati75: great! please write all your impressions on a pastebin and paste it here later when you are about to leave the test :)
[14:44] <GridCube> the pastebin link i mean 
[15:21] <mati75> GridCube: ok, no problem
[15:49] <mati75> that look start and end test xubuntu xmir: http://pl.mati75.eu:8080/IMG00190-20130805-1741.jpg
[15:51] <elfy> mati75: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1208250
[16:48] <ganglere> elfy: making a bootable usb via usb-creator-gtk is part of the live session test case. shouldn't it therefore be included as part of the iso?
[16:49] <elfy> then the testcase should be changed - testcases should be agnostic, unless a testcase is for something specific like unity or all of our xfce things
[16:49] <elfy> therefore the testcase should change to read so that one flavour doesn't have to add a package just to make that right
[16:50] <elfy> ganglere: what if the testcase made reference to unity - does that mean that all flavours should have unity installed? 
[16:53] <skellat> Options: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/1208243/comments/5
[16:55] <elfy> skellat: basically it's tied up with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1198466
[16:56] <ganglere> I was not aware of 1198466. It seems this is out of my hands now. Is there anything further I should do?
[16:57] <elfy> skellat: so really it's a moot point :)
[16:59] <elfy> ganglere: not really - as far as I am concerned if you have run the livecd testcase without the persistence test and you had no issues you can pass it
[16:59] <ganglere> elfy: ok, I will revise my report
[17:00] <elfy> marked it invalid 
[21:04] <knome> skellat, it might be correct that we do ship mir now.
[21:08] <Unit193> knome: Howdy.
[21:15] <knome> hey Unit193 
[21:59] <skellat> knome: I just logged back into my ZNC.  It feels like you started in the middle.
[22:00] <knome> probably.
[22:01] <skellat> Oh.  You were likely responding to the discussion between myself and Unit193 last night, I bet.
[22:01] <knome> mhm
[22:01] <knome> well your ping
[22:01] <skellat> Which one?
[22:01] <skellat> There are so many...
[22:01] <knome> mir in xubuntu, bug 1208250
[22:03] <skellat> knome: Ah.  That got resolved over on #ubuntu-mir as the developer who did the triaging wasn't looped in on the e-mail lyz sent.  Nothing on cdimages.u.c has Mir yet.  Only our test image on Unit193's server does.  Once Unit193 got that straightened out things became okay.
[22:03] <knome> oki
[22:04] <skellat> So many Mir developers, it is hard to keep track of 'em all
[22:06] <skellat> knome: I did read the write-up in response this morning.  It is good to see we hit a duplicate of a bug in one case.  It isn't so good to see that the corrupted screens we hit are a known problem.
[22:06] <ochosi> so what's the general opinion on mir so far?
[22:07] <Noskcaj> ochosi, If i could test it somehow, i would be so happy...
[22:07] <Unit193> ochosi: -1
[22:08]  * Noskcaj just remembered he has a VIA ITX  pc under his bed, now has planned the next two weeks
[22:09] <skellat> I don't wish failure on anyone.  I truly do want them to succeed in whatever they set out to do.  I just don't know if the timeframe they plotted out at the beginning has so far proven realistic.
[22:09] <ochosi> Unit193: simply too many issues or other concerns?
[22:12] <knome> skellat, can agree with that
[22:14] <lderan> skellat, yup :(
[22:21] <ochosi> i'm having similar thoughts wrt the ubuntu edge kickstarter
[22:21] <Unit193> ochosi: Yes, and it's just too soon.
[22:25] <gian1> given the expected bugs and reduced performance, what would make you adopt xmir instead of sticking with xorg?
[22:25] <ochosi> gian1: hard to say, but e.g. more testing before an inevitable later switch
[22:25] <gian1> i'm still not sure why you're even testing xmir
[22:25] <skellat> gian1: They've got 17 days to land more code before we make that final call
[22:26] <skellat> gian1: With luck we can provide feedback along the way and hopefully contribute towards success
[22:27] <gian1> you have no qualms with the route canonical has been taking?
[22:27] <gian1> (inot criti
[22:27] <gian1> err
[22:27] <gian1> (i'm not trying to criticize or troll)
[22:28] <knome> gian1, xubuntu is still an OS heavily depending on the ubuntu core
[22:28] <gian1> right, i'm aware of that
[22:29] <knome> nobody says this is the optimal way of doing this (i'm probably the last one saying that), but that doesn't mean xmir can't be a good thing eventually
[22:29] <knome> or other things they've done
[22:30] <gian1> hm, i don't see how xmir can ever be a good thing for the user
[22:30] <gian1> it's simply not needed
[22:30] <skellat> gian1: Change is coming to the display server realm with quite a few contenders.  We've wound up in the unique position that upstream Xfce hasn't expressed plans in any direction so we have the opportunity to test, evaluate, and consider options in a relatively calm fashion.
[22:31] <gian1> are you evaluating things like license choice (gpl3 vs mit) and performance?
[22:32] <skellat> Replication is the first step
[22:32] <gian1> personally, i'm a linux user but i include the *BSDs in the eco system
[22:32] <skellat> The YouTube demonstration videos from earlier this year showing XMir and other window managers playing nice is what we're trying to replicate
[22:32] <drc> yeah, like the correct license outweighs a working display.
[22:33] <skellat> Once we can replicate XMir and the window manager playing nice we can worry then worry about license choice
[22:33] <gian1> imo, Mir has the wrong license, and i'm not even talking about the CLA which implicitly prevents pretty much every other commercial entity from contributing
[22:34] <knome> gian1, anybody is free to select their desktop and OS of choice - if you think the technology or license in mir is something you can't tolerate, you should consider other options, like debian xfce (and no, this is not a go-away motion)
[22:34] <knome> gian1, the license is something we can hardly affect
[22:34] <gian1> yes of course, i've just been observing the discussion in here and it has struck me as being somewhat narrow
[22:35] <gian1> alright, i've said what i wanted to say, i'll shut up now :)
[22:35] <skellat> If we can't successfully get XMir to work more than 50% of the time on test machines, licensing and other discussions become moot
[22:35] <Unit193> How do you mean?  I know some of us are less likely to say what's really on our minds in a logged channel too. ;)
[22:36] <OvenWerks> 50%... 90% even is pretty much a fail.
[22:36] <knome> also, i'd imagine people who contribute to ubuntu (including xubuntu contributors) are more or less fine with the ubuntu core, including the fact that canonical as a corporation is controlling parts of the ecosystem, including licenses and stuff
[22:37] <knome> and i believe they are englightened and wise enough to judge to stop contributing if they start disagreeing more than agreeing
[22:38] <knome> after all, i think xubuntu is "just another" distro with xfce
[22:39] <gian1> knome: i'm not so sure, this Mir silliness seems to be a water shed. lots of people seem unwilling to tag along this time
[22:39] <knome> but still, of course, i do believe in it's uniqueness and in a way, it's superiority, because it's the OS i'm contributing to
[22:40] <knome> gian1, we've seen the vocal minority pop up many times in the past as well
[22:40] <ochosi> (e.g. with unity)
[22:40] <gian1> yep, and maybe i'm that vocal minority this time, i can't say
[22:41] <knome> gian1, and as a reminder (to us all), we're just seeing what xmir can give to us, and if it's a viable option for xubuntu
[22:41] <knome> seriously, it will need to perform pretty well to get included in xubuntu
[22:41] <gian1> ochosi: heh yeah, unity is what drove me to xubuntu
[22:42] <skellat> gian1: A fair hearing and evaluation is being given.  Decisions will be made on August 22nd.
[22:42] <Unit193> knome: "Pretty well" on what computers?  How many is enough for it not to take?
[22:42] <gian1> skellat: ok, i hope so.
[22:42] <knome> Unit193, a majority, at least
[22:43] <gian1> (and yes, you can influence the license of ubuntu's display server, if you make them go wayland, which will happen sooner or later anyway)
[22:43] <Unit193> gian1: I was involved in starting the Mir thing, and it's not my intention to push it into Xubuntu (actually, I'm rather hopeing people see that it's not ready yet.)
[22:43] <knome> Unit193, we won't have exact statistical data from all of our users, so we are in a dark room partially anyway. we just need to do a good guess.
[22:43] <Unit193> knome: Sure.
[22:44] <knome> gian1, make who go wayland?
[22:45] <gian1> ubuntu
[22:45] <OvenWerks> ubuntu still has upstart.
[22:45] <knome> gian1, and how do you see that happening?
[22:45]  * drc didn't know that knome had that much influence on Canonical amd MarkS
[22:45] <gian1> oh, they will have no choice, no toolkit support, software being ported to wayland
[22:46] <knome> gian1, remind you, canonical is still controlling ubuntu, and since it's their business, they will take the decision
[22:46] <knome> gian1, flavors like xubuntu can follow or not follow. but not affect what they decide to do.
[22:46] <gian1> Mir is an island, what are they going to do, port everything to Mir themselves?
[22:47] <OvenWerks> gian1: they ported everything to upstart. not systemd
[22:47] <gian1> and in a still distant future when software start dropping support for X...
[22:47] <OvenWerks> upstart is an island too.
[22:48] <gian1> OvenWerks: i think the complexity is far worse in the Mir case
[22:48] <OvenWerks> Ubuntu (vanilla) is focused on a future of a computer appliance
[22:48] <OvenWerks> relatively few applications
[22:48] <knome> gian1, the discussion whether ubuntu will use mir or if it's sensible for them is absurd.
[22:48] <knome> gian1, all of that is a canonical business decision.
[22:49] <Unit193> OvenWerks: To be fair, didn't upstart exist before systemd?
[22:49] <OvenWerks> MIR makes sense in that landscape.
[22:49] <OvenWerks> Unit193: I don't really know.
[22:49] <gian1> knome: sure, but they are doing their damndest to include you in their business, that's why jono was in here trying to sell Mir
[22:49] <Unit193> Pretty sure it is.
[22:49] <OvenWerks> what matters is that no one else has used it.
[22:50] <gian1> knome: you matter and you shouldn't sell yourself short
[22:50] <knome> gian1, well, kind of. but we are still allowed to not use xmir.
[22:50] <gian1> knome: yes, good thing is it's not too late :)
[22:51] <Unit193> OvenWerks: True, but it is usable in Debian at least.
[22:51] <knome> gian1, i understand. we're not just obeying what they say - that's why we're testing and seeing if it's any good now.
[22:52] <OvenWerks> Unit193: can we expect to see MIR there as well?
[22:52] <Unit193> OvenWerks: hah, I have no idea, I'd guess not for a while. :P
[22:53] <gian1> knome: i'm saying i can't see how it could ever be better than xorg, or even what the definition of "good enough" would be, given that you already know there will be bugs and guaranteed performance hits
[22:53] <gian1> pardon me for saying so, but i think you are wasting your time
[22:54] <gian1> but, it's your distro, your call
[22:54] <knome> gian1, if we decide to keep with x.org, it will mean we will need to use our time to maintain it in the ubuntu repositories, rather than canonical doing the maintenance for us
[22:54] <OvenWerks> xorg needs a rewrite to fit modern video and input hw. wayland is not X even though it has come out of xorg
[22:55] <Unit193> gian1: The one single thing I've seen good about Xubuntu using XMir, it's tear free, if you trust the guy on the mailing list.
[22:55] <knome> gian1, if the performance and features are near-par, it's  real decision.
[22:55] <OvenWerks> The fact that wayland exists, and where it comes from suggests X needs a replacement.
[22:55] <gian1> knome: yes, the other day, i suggested liaisoning with other flavors to hash out such questions, but at least pleia2 wasn't worried about maintaining xorg
[22:56] <knome> gian1, it's probably fine, but until we make a decision, i won't worry about anything that's post-decision
[22:56] <gian1> Unit193: ok, that'd be something, at least :)
[22:57] <OvenWerks> Unit193: has vanilla got MIR on the ISO?
[22:57] <Unit193> OvenWerks: As far as I know, unity-system-compositor isn't in the repos, so I'd say "No."
[22:57] <gian1> knome: hm, shouldn't you know what the options entail before you decide?
[22:58] <skellat> OvenWerks: After last night kerfuffle, we can confirm no images on cdimages.ubuntu.com have Mir in them.  Only our special test image does.
[22:58] <Unit193> (And I'm cheating. :D )
[22:58] <OvenWerks> Well it wouldn't be a great test for me anyway... unity is so slow as to be unusable on my HW
[22:58] <knome> gian1, knowing doesn't imply worrying :)
[22:59] <Unit193> OvenWerks: That's the silly name of it, it's not actually unity.
[22:59] <gian1> knome: fair enough :)
[22:59] <Unit193> (Another marker that Mir is made for unity.)
[22:59] <knome> gian1, and if xmir isn't ready, we're going to go the x route anyway, even if that included worrying about maintaining...
[22:59] <Unit193> gian1: Just wondering, not sure if you've said either, but did you give it a go?
[23:00] <gian1> Unit193: no, sorry, i'm not going to lift a finger to help canonical test xmir/mir
[23:01] <drc>  /me wonders why everyone is wasting time arguing with this clown
[23:01] <gian1> i came from windows many years ago, i'm not getting back with crazy again ;)
[23:01] <OvenWerks> Unit193: if MIR makes unity actually work for me that would be a plus. But I have old stuff P4 and an Nvidia old enough that there are no longer nvidia supported drivers for it.
[23:02] <OvenWerks> Gnome shell has problems too.
[23:02] <Unit193> OvenWerks: I hear you, this is an older computer that Mir doesn't support either (well, the new one isn't supported either, but that's beside the point.)
[23:02] <Unit193> (And Unity wouldn't stand a chacne.)
[23:03] <OvenWerks> I have a new intel atom based board coming soon. I will try that.
[23:04] <OvenWerks> Not the fastest thing around, but better latency that some stuff with twice the performance.
[23:05] <knome> gian1, well, that's sad to hear
[23:06] <knome> gian1, the more testing data we get, the more informed decision.
[23:08] <gian1> well, for me, even a 100% "working" xmir still wouldn't be enough to make me consider using it
[23:08] <gian1> to me, technologically and ideologically, it's a mistake
[23:59] <hazxubxmir> g'day, trying out with xmir is there anyway of checking that xmir is actually the system that's working