[02:19] anyone home? [02:20] yep, home [02:41] oh sorry rick, got lost in an email response :) [12:16] Good morning [12:16] Brought a fan to work. Feeling a little better about the world. [12:17] morning and heh [12:18] A device for moving air, or a cheering person? [12:24] A device for moving air [12:24] There's low airflow in this cubicle [12:24] Finally did something about it [12:26] http://www.vornado.com/personal-circulators/-ZIPPI [12:26] I got the raindrop colored one [12:27] I have 2 server towers 10ft away that circulate air for me [12:28] Lucky. :) [12:29] Also played a bit with the theme on my blog [12:35] vornado ftw! [12:54] Yeah, almost all of our home fans are vornado [12:58] nd by almost, I mean two. [13:00] yea, 3 here [13:06] Kivy is higher up than Pyramid http://stg.pythonhackers.com/os/ [13:08] If you can't get a Chromecast, make your own https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=at.maui.cheapcast [14:19] Are we having fun yet? [14:20] oh yea [14:20] motrin kicking in [14:32] 2 ervers nearby is not lucky, its torture. How loud is it near you brousch ? [14:32] ervers? [14:32] oh servers [14:32] nvm, got it [14:32] typo, not enough coffee [14:33] Not too bad [14:33] They are tower servers, so there's more noise consideration [14:33] i like quiet. [14:33] i find laptops annoying when their fans spin up [14:33] It's white noise to cover the ramblings of people in nearby cubicles too [14:34] ah, as long as it isn't the jet engine sound of my 1U servers. [15:27] anybody have an opinion on grunt? [15:27] having an issue figuring out why you'd use it over a makefile [15:27] God, there's a new version of Learning Python [15:27] Blazeix: because it's JS [15:27] other than that...nothing [15:27] It's like why you would use ant over make [15:27] yeah, but seems weird to have js config for cli tools, which is what most of them are [15:27] guess it's just the node community [15:28] or rake over make [15:28] maybe more portable than make to Windows [15:28] make has a heavy C bias [15:28] yea, node community wants to use their node tools to do their node apps so that they don't have to learn shell, or anything else resembling something already installed on the system [15:28] so it makes sense for things that have a compiled state that can be updated whenever a file updates [15:29] which fits perfectly for minification/compilation of coffeescript/sass etc [15:30] ok, but i can accept that 'ant' and rake/fake/?ake exists, so i guess i'll be ok with grunt [15:31] Personally I feel like everyone is spending time reinventing the wheel, but then again if nothing changed we'd be using Turbo Pascal on DOS 3.3 machines [15:32] so I just suck it up. :) [15:45] Screw that $600 for Ubuntu Edge thing http://gigaom.com/2013/08/12/firefox-os-for-the-world-zte-to-sell-80-open-smartphone-through-ebay/ [16:45] http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/08/blackberry-announces-that-it-may-sell-the-company/ [16:46] #toolate [16:47] Blazeix: i have strong opinions on grunt. have you formed your own yet? [16:47] It's going to be a patent grab at this point [16:47] Blazeix: grunt exists for 1 reason only: Windows. [16:47] * rick_h sits back to listen to jrwren story time [16:47] Windows doesn't ship with make or bash, but nodejs installs from the Windows Platform Installer (WPI) [16:48] ah, that's interesting [16:48] so by using grunt you target all platforms on which nodejs runs. [16:48] * snap-l gets his footie PJs on and a cup of hot cocoa [16:48] yes, it sucks, and it bullshit and make + posix shell [16:48] is better. [16:48] but at least it's a valid reason [16:48] yes, Windows is a valid reason. [16:48] Question: why not reimplement make in JS then? [16:48] however, if you don't care about windows, then you have no good reason to care about grunt, IMO [16:48] use make and shell [16:49] right, which is why I don't think much of grunt [16:49] snap-l: make does do very much, after dep resolution the interesting things it does is call shell commands [16:55] what are you ppl using js for in the first place, web dev, mongodb, admin scripting or what? [16:56] everything! [16:56] JS all the things! [16:56] LOL [16:56] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/mssmallbiz/archive/2013/06/28/almost-150-free-microsoft-ebooks-covering-windows-7-windows-8-office-2010-office-2013-office-365-office-web-apps-windows-server-2012-windows-phone-7-windows-phone-8-sql-server-2008-sql-server-2012-sharepoint-server-2010-s.aspx [16:56] web dev thuogh [16:57] ok, so you are using make to handle platform/arch conditionals ? [16:57] jrwren: ah, interesting, thanks [16:58] for windows dev i only ever do .NET stuff, which has "the MS way" like bundling [16:58] nezsez: yea, makefiles for automating/building/installing really [16:58] but i suppose if i were trying to python or something like that i could see using grunt [16:58] nezsez: bookie's install it "git clone ... && make sysdeps && make install && make run && xdg-open http://localhost?6543" [16:58] I'm not a js guy, is why i'm asking [16:59] rick_h: yeah i use make, just not for js LOL [16:59] nezsez: ah, well grunt is just doing the file watching, css minifying, less processing, etc [17:00] jrwren: bookie sprint my place 31th 11am. I'm going to start writing up a block post and such but put it on the calendar :) [17:00] in webdev there are a lot of processes that need 'compilation', like combining all your JS files for efficient downloading [17:00] it's these sort of processes that you'd use make or grunt for [17:01] wtf is "bookie" ? [17:01] rick_h's open source project [17:01] ah [17:02] so rick_h is an online gambling kingpin [17:03] social bookmarking kingpin [17:03] https://bmark.us/recent [17:03] LOL [17:10] hah, yea something like that [17:13] I want something like grunt in python [17:13] So I can use it on windows and Android [17:13] * rick_h wonders if pake is still around [17:13] Was dead when I looked [17:14] brousch: you code for android on linux, MS windows, both or what? [17:14] fabric is close, but the openssl dependecy is annoying on windows and android [17:14] I use Linux at home, and am trying Windows at work [17:14] Working on Python on Android stuff [17:15] interesting [17:15] I do a little of everything [17:15] yeah me too [17:15] just got the new edition of "Learning Python" [17:16] the biggest turn off for coding these days is the setup/maintenece of the friggin IDEs [17:16] eclipse, Visual Studio......egads [17:17] I had weaned myself off of PyDev (eclipse) to vim on Linux, but now I'm back to using it because I can't get the hang of vim on Windows [17:18] But really setting up PyDev is easy. Download Aptana Studio, install, done [17:19] ah, yeah i pretty much use vi for everything [17:20] once you get the buffers/windows/tabs thing down it's great [17:20] i have been thrown off with some of the default keybindings in gvim on MS win [17:21] part of it is the windows console [17:21] oh, definitely run gvim on windows [17:21] console vim on windows is sad [17:21] I try to go somewhere and I keep using the wrong \s and commands (ls) [17:22] the cream project keeps up-to-date windows builds, much more up to date than vim.org: http://sourceforge.net/projects/cream/files/Vim/ [17:22] LOL, yeah just yesterday i typed ":ls" and got the standard error [17:22] on gvim on win I mean :) [17:22] if you install git for windows, it adds mingw environment, so you get 'ls' [17:23] sure, if you do the $PATH thing on the install of git [17:23] I of course did not do that [17:23] oh, i do [17:23] you get rxvt, too [17:23] i haven't heard of cream before [17:24] yeah, i don't really know too much about the editor, but they keep vanilla vim builds as well as their cream builds [17:24] so it's not just another .vimrc thing? [17:25] but an actual build of the vim source with mods? [17:25] i think so [17:25] Tim Pope's stuff is the best [17:25] but it's just vimrc and plugin stuff [17:26] brousch: what kinda apps are you doing for android? [17:26] brousch: you coding for split windows on tablets yet? [17:27] Kivy [17:28] Blazeix: you don't use eric or idle or pydev at all anymore? [17:29] i just use vim, though i'm not a master python programmer [17:29] Eclipse really isn't bad. A bit slow to start up, but you only do that once a day [17:29] brousch: you work on the kivy project, or use for your own projects? [17:29] Both! [17:29] brousch: a excellent [17:30] Blazeix: well try running an eclipse install on a multi user system for 100+ dev; believe me it's a nightmare [17:31] Anything running for 100+ devs sounds like a nighttmare [17:31] sadly, most OSS userland projects are not coded for actual simoultaneous usage [17:31] Do they not have their own computers? [17:31] brousch: sure they do, and that's a whole nuther can o' worms :) [17:32] Then what's the problem? They work in eclipse on their computer, commit via git [17:32] brousch: but for continous integration, build servers, and typically HPC stuff many run off servers for compatability etc [17:33] I don't see what eclipse has to do with what happens on the servers [17:33] brousch: most companies, large institutions centralize for many things [17:33] They're doing it wrong! [17:33] brousch: they run eclipse from a server [17:33] no they aren't [17:34] you cross compile for ppc, mips, arm, pi, cell/GPU and the setups get complex quick [17:34] You don't just submit the builds to the build servers? [17:34] rick_h: thanks, its on the calendar [17:35] most of the ones I've worked with did, but only after testing on a server ya know [17:36] take a 1024 node beowulf, vs a 1024 node SGI Origin for example [17:36] Still sounds wrong to me, but I have no experience with enterprise stuff [17:37] if you are writing code for both working on the same domain problem, well it don't pay to have dozens of eclipse setups all over the place [17:37] so they setup eclipse on a multi-user system, setup paths for the various arch/plat LIBS, etc, and then everyone runs eclipse off that server and remote displays [17:38] This sounds like a unique problem to have [17:38] Sounds slow [17:38] Everywhere I've seen Eclipse / Rational, it's been installed on the local machine [17:38] And usually with the beefiest of beefy machines [17:38] its because they are using eclipse. [17:39] using eclipse as a build engine is the problem. now solve it. [17:39] you should always be able to do a build without starting an IDE. [17:39] if you do not share this value, then your values are out of whack. fix that. [17:39] jrwren: Ever built a Websphere WAR file from scratch? [17:39] I tried. it's not fun [17:40] jrwren: you obviously have not worked with faculty. fix that. [17:40] faculty? [17:40] I have worked with faculty. [17:40] if you mean university fools. [17:40] Was this for a lab? [17:40] PhDs are the worst. [17:40] its still wrong: fix it. [17:40] I didn't say fixing it was easy. [17:40] yeah, as in 100's or 1000's coding for HPC talk about herding cats :) [17:41] acutally, for me, phd *students* were great to work with :) [17:41] IME most PhDs wouldn't know a HPC if it hit them in their face. [17:41] yes, and even postdocs are great IMO [17:41] But yeah, I agree with jrwren; having some form of build server would be preferable to having everyone run eclipse and display remotely [17:41] once you get a professorship position something changes in you. your pre frontal cortex turns to mush [17:42] jrwren: You lose the "strive" [17:42] strife is what makes a postdoc bearable [17:42] jrwren: I had one guy in physics, actually the highest ranking faculty at a major statue univ, he wrote code for an SGI Origin 2000 [17:42] once they lose the strife, they become ethereal cereal [17:43] jrwren: 57 Gig ram and 57 compute nodes (very impressive back then FTR) [17:43] and float up into the eternal asshole [17:43] jrwren: and he wrote a single threaded, single process program LOL [17:43] (Actaully, there were some great PhD folks who didn't become assholes where I worked) [17:43] nezsez: not surprising. was it fortran? [17:44] jwren: yup fortran of course [17:44] same here, all the PhDs i've worked with ehre are great. [17:44] they were spending their time getting PhD and profships, not spending time leanring to code. I don't hold it against hem. [17:45] the hard part is getting poeple to understand that PhDs are shitty coders, and helping them code better. [17:45] and yes, I mean compsci PhDs too [17:45] some of my best friends now are phd students I helped out years ago [17:45] I should point out at this point that I worked for Mathematics, CS, and Eng college over the years. [17:46] what school? [17:46] The CS coders were actually good, except for the really old ones [17:46] a major state univ, not in MI :) [17:46] no names eh? [17:46] well, I detest that school now [17:47] all the more reason to name teh evil. [17:47] LOL true [17:47] TTU [17:47] there, I said it [17:47] tennessee tech! [17:47] texas tech [17:47] talahasee tech [17:47] I almost applied for a position at tenesee with NASA about 10 yrs ago [17:48] glad i didn't [17:48] The Technical University [17:48] Texas Tech [17:48] I hate that school, and I worked with the previous pres, provost, and a prev chancillor too [17:49] I must say that the faculty in the math and CS depts were really great ppl [17:49] but the sniveling middle management and beaurocratic hell were horrible [17:50] an no I never met Bobby Knight, altough two of my admin friends did [17:51] I never met Mike Leach either [17:54] did anyone go to univ here in MI? [17:54] lol, in another irc channel "hatch| your horrible terminalness is rubbing off on me: [17:56] yes [17:57] grad or undergrad? how was it, the atmosphere in your area i mean [17:57] I'm thinking about applying to the univs here (employment not student) is why I ask [17:57] It was the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. The most universitiest place on Earth [17:58] did you like it there? [17:59] Yes [17:59] My only complaint is the cost [17:59] k, did the staff (not faculty) treat you pretty good or was it like anytime you interacted with them it was a nightmare? [18:00] I don't remember any nightmares [18:00] LOL yeah I paid 12$/hr when i quite, 10 yrs later it was 120$/hr ! [18:01] now that my work laptop was stolen and I want to manage my gpg/ssh keys in the best possible way (don't worry, I've deleted that laptop's ssh key from everywhere it could access), what is the best guide on "here's how to do it, this is the really secure/right way" (I'm thinking a guide that says "for your gpg signing key, do this, for your gpg encryption key that does automatic backups, do this." etc) [18:01] stolen?! [18:02] ouch [18:02] Don't they hand out macbook airs on the street corners for free in SF? [18:02] man i'm sorry to hear that [18:03] greg-g: :( and ping http://pthree.org/ for advice. He's all into this stuff [18:04] nezsez: fwiw, I did my B.Sc. in CS at Wayne State [18:05] ColonelPanic001: Wait, don't you work there? [18:06] ColonelPanic001: ah, I had some friends that worked in the math dept there a long time ago, they liked it [18:06] Colonel: as a student, how did the staff treat you? [18:07] brousch: I do work here now, yeah [18:07] student from 2004-2008, employee in C&IT Jan 2011-present [18:07] nezsez: as in, were the professors nice? I'd say so [18:08] colonel: no not the faculty, the regular staff, secretaries, IT personel, etc [18:08] my intereaction with them was minimal at best as a student [18:09] I just showed up and went to class [18:09] but I have no specific complaints either, if that helps [18:09] colonel: I understand. That's one of my objections to current colleges...they should be more involved with the students [18:10] rick_h: oh righ! [18:10] well, there's something like 100-200 student orgs here, etc [18:10] +t [18:10] but I didn't seek them out, etc until I helped re-start one [18:10] didn't do any of the orientations, etc [18:11] greg-g: and I'll be hoping a thinkpad lands your way :) [18:11] Colonel: I understand. It seems the Wayne State Linux group has been inactive for several years [18:11] if they had tried harder, I would have told to leave me alone so I could study. :) [18:11] rick_h: YES! [18:11] meh, it's semi-inactive [18:11] we exist in that there's a bunch of use that talk daily, etc [18:11] in fact, #waynestatelug [18:11] * rick_h shudders at the idea of laptop stolen [18:11] rick_h: that was my second thought after "shit"... "oh, sweet, maybe I'll get a real laptop now!" [18:11] we live [18:11] greg-g: yea, I didn't want to start with that [18:11] greg-g: but can't say it didn't 'pop' into my head :) [18:11] but, we don't meet often because we're mostly employees, etc. We just need a couple students to take initiative and get it going [18:12] rick_h: :) [18:12] silver lining and all that [18:12] greg-g: but yea, hit up aaron, he's given talks and such and run encrypted HDD and such for a long time [18:12] colonel: I understand; I started a LUG at TTU in the early 90's as a staff memeber myself [18:12] * greg-g nods [18:13] I should probably have this laptop with full disk encryption [18:13] yeah, I was a memeber, you know one who spreads memes [18:13] next time I do a reinstall [18:14] Colonel: you do IT there now? [18:14] I does [18:14] but there are good things about WSU, too. [18:15] WSU and UofM both have very good reputations [18:15] WSU has a reputation. :) [18:15] one of our grad students became faculty in math for a while (he's gone now) at WSU [18:16] ¬_¬ [18:16] he like it there [18:16] WDET kicks ass FTR [18:16] I've known a few math grad students here, but I couldn't really say much about the department [18:17] Stolen laptop is one reason I'm looking forward to chromebook-like things [18:18] colonel: you work for a dept, centralized IT, or a special center or what? [18:18] I'm just tired of all the stuff in the way of the NSA backing up my stuff for me. I figure with a chromebook it'd be wasier [18:18] nezsez: yeah, central IT, called Computing and Information Technology [18:18] http://computing.wayne.edu/ [18:19] Chromiumbook? [18:19] NSABackup, store your data AND have a luxury, ultra-secure, one room hotel visit [18:19] nezsez++ [18:20] hey, you can't increment that way!! [18:20] ++nezsez [18:20] colonel: do you code, or mostly do addmin stuff [18:21] LOL [18:21] nezsez+= nezsez + 1 [18:21] nezsez: both, but mostly code. My title is "systems integrator", so it's more like "just make this work k thx" [18:21] i've actually seen someone try to do that type o line [18:21] my department of maybe 12 people or so is probably half admin-types and half programmer types [18:21] LOL yes i know what you mean [18:22] no DBA types? [18:22] so lately I've been tyring to get old order data into a new ecommerce site, for example. Lots of "hey this order looks screwed up, might want to fix that" and not as much code anymore [18:22] but it comes and goes [18:22] nezsez: whole other department of DBAs [18:24] ah [18:24] They're developer DBAs. :) [18:24] DevBA [18:25] you can just call em' Deva :) [18:25] ¬_¬ [18:26] you guys using cognos, Peoplesoft, Banner (or whatever it's name du jour is ) ? [18:26] AD or LDAP/kerb? [18:26] I haven't been in the same room as Cognos since I worked at Chrysler [18:26] never did anything with it [18:26] Banner. The horror, the horror. [18:27] I'd have to go thru hell with banner and cognos each semester [18:27] we had massive probs with the migration from techRIM/FIS to banner....made by the same damn company too [18:27] I think just firing them up is enough to raise the ambient room temperature to mostly boiling [18:28] LOL, peoplesoft is just as bad FTR [18:29] I've seen secretaries literally screaming in a public place due to Banner [18:30] a faculty member once told me that he'd seen an actual fistfight break out about peoplesoft [18:30] haha [18:32] colonel: how many students does WSU have roughly? [18:32] snap-l: did you ever work at a univ? [18:34] nezsez: undergrad? not sure, probably 27,000-30,000 total [18:34] for the entire university [18:35] I didn't realize it was that big, I thought it was *much* smaller [18:35] is large. [18:35] TTU is 40k+ [18:35] remember ours is the largest single-campus medical school in the country. Or so I'm told. For example [18:35] I did not know that [18:36] Founded in 1868, Wayne State University is a nationally recognized metropolitan research institution offering more than 370 academic programs through 13 schools and colleges to nearly 29,000 students. Wayne State’s main campus in Midtown Detroit comprises 100 buildings over 200 acres; its six extension centers offer higher education to students throughout Southeast Michigan. [18:36] http://wayne.edu/facts/pdfs/factbook2013.pdf [18:36] never saw this before [18:36] there's some other metrics in there [18:36] oh, sorry [18:36] LOL [18:36] I was way off [18:36] Specializing in gunshot and stabbing victims [18:36] 2012 had 19k undergrads, 28.9k total [18:37] close enough :) [18:37] is the crime rate really high on campus? [18:37] on campus? no [18:38] we have our own police department which is pretty great, and 1984-like cameras that cover pretty much the entirety of Midtown [18:38] LOL it's like U of H in TX; campus is beautiful, nice, but cross the street and you better have kevlar [18:38] a fellow student and I used to jokingly call it "the green zone" [18:38] but yeah [18:39] WSUPD officers are all licensed as Detroit officers, too. None of that "oops he got away" because it's a little off campus. They patrol areas near but not strictly on campus, too [18:39] at TTU, the campus cops are actually state cops, they have jurisdiction everywhere [18:39] I've been told, but not researched it myself, that WSU has a lower crime rate than U-M Ann Arbor and many others [18:40] nice [18:40] well nice if they are good cops :) [18:40] My brother in law is one of them [18:41] your brother in law works at TTU as a cop? [18:41] Wayne State [18:41] or is a good cop? [18:41] ah cool [18:42] never really interacted with the police here, couldn't say much about them [18:42] other than if you're on the main campus, they're everywhere [18:42] not even counting the cameras [18:43] colonel: has your IT dept established policies/procedures for Incidence Response and legal issues? [18:44] as in tampering with evidence issues, ownership of data in case of death, those sorts of things? [18:44] I would expect so, but I don't honestly know [18:44] I ask because I've been stunned with the number of univs that have no actual procedures for IT to follow in such cases [18:44] "I just work here". heh [18:45] yeah, if asked, I would just go ask my boss. I don't know. [18:45] try not to die [18:46] well word of warning, if there is a breach, and you unplug the network cable (much less shut the machine down), you can be held accountable for tampering with or destroying evidence [18:46] if there is an investigation later [18:47] I do nothing of importance anyway, don't worry [18:48] brb [18:50] back [18:51] are any of the other local users groups like the ann arbor computing thing, or the python users group worth cecking into? [18:51] nezsez: Are you in Ann Arbor? [18:51] * nezsez just moved to MI [18:52] There are makerspaces everywhere [18:52] I'm in Canton for the time being till I find a house [18:52] MUG, MDLUG, Omnicorp Detroit, etc, etc [18:52] WSULUG, I have to mention, too, of course [18:53] I passed the Wayne state lug cause it's info was so out of date I assumed it was defunct [18:53] I joined the mug, and mdlug maillists [18:54] they admin of the UofM lug told me today that they were still active [18:56] I missed the maker fair in Detroit the other weekend sadly [18:59] haha, WSULUG is in a state of "a lot of us all work here and talk in #waynestatelug, but don't officially meet much, until someone gets it going" [18:59] hopefully maybe this fall we'll get some meetings [19:01] ColonelPanic001: Similar to GRLUG [19:09] * nezsez wonders if the colonpanic nick is taken === nezsez is now known as WARNING [19:11] * WARNING ***Colon Panic imminent*** === WARNING is now known as nezsez === nezsez is now known as WARNING === WARNING is now known as nezsez [19:20] rick_h: have you looked into dokku ? [19:20] ColonelPanic001: do you work with Kevin Hayes? [19:21] in the same building, I've met him [19:21] but not really [19:21] jcastro: does your x230 wifi work? http://askubuntu.com/questions/109260/how-do-i-get-an-intel-ultimate-6300-n-working [19:21] jrwren: yea, looked at it, not used it [19:21] keeping an eye on it. <3 the idea [19:22] same here. [19:24]