[00:18] <OvenWerks> xequence: zenity should put up a screen in front of the terminal.
[00:18] <OvenWerks> even if you run ubuntustudio-installer with no package names on the command line.
[00:19] <OvenWerks> It is a saucy package (my ppa and the US branch which is waiting for review I think ? micahg ?? )
[00:20] <OvenWerks> micahg: I have been gone since last week. Can I assume I am waiting for a second review?
[00:21] <OvenWerks> xequence: I would like to move mish's icons even as they are into the -menu package.
[00:22] <OvenWerks> xequence: the reason for this is that the menu package needs to be there and working before FF. artwork can continue to change after that.
[00:23] <OvenWerks> The three packages (-installer, -menu and -settings) will need to be changed in sequence. (maybe seeds too)
[03:36] <micahg> OvenWerks: yeah
[03:37] <micahg> I'll try to find someone again
[04:52] <smartboyhw> xequence, ping
[09:59] <cub> Do we have any thoughts on what kind of applications that would be included in Publishing? I was thinking of people who do wordpress and/or blog sites. In terms of, should we perhaps include for instance Bluefish or similar in the default apps?
[10:00] <knome> or is it paper-publishing, where you'd want things like scribus?
[10:00] <cub> that's what's in there today
[10:00] <cub> font manager, scribus and so on
[10:00] <knome> you might want to make a difference between those two, they are really different areas
[10:01] <cub> yes, it might be too big to include as well. 
[10:01] <knome> sure.
[10:01] <knome> (not that i'd be too much on top of US development, but...)
[10:01] <cub> if you install for instance Bluefish it's put in a menu row "Programming"
[10:01] <knome> heh, right
[10:02] <cub> No, it's more like "if you include X you should include Y, Z as well"
[10:02] <knome> i think that's correct though
[10:02] <cub> yes, it's a coding editor
[10:04] <cub> knome, are you familiar with what Accessibility applications Xubuntu includes on the live dvd? If any?
[10:04] <cub> I'm looking into a request to include Orca for visually impaired to make the installation more accessible
[10:04] <knome> i don't know if we ship something, but iirc, not a lot of it was working the last time we checked
[10:05] <knome> i think there was something about orca not working
[10:05] <cub> hmm
[10:05] <knome> but that's out of my area of expertise, so...
[10:05] <cub> I'm told it works well with Gnome, but I don't know about xfce
[10:05] <knome> yeah
[10:06] <knome> if you get to test it... report us ;)
[10:06] <cub> Oh well, I have 9 more days to figure it out. ;)
[10:06] <knome> but no pressure.
[10:06] <cub> yeah will do.
[10:06] <knome> we're probably not going to do that for 13.10 anyway, maybe 14.04
[10:07] <cub> Yes, it might be too tight to get it by 13.10, but I'll give it a shot.
[10:07] <knome> at the end of the day, 13.10 is not an LTS, so if it's a bit broken... but yeah.
[10:08] <cub> my thoughts exactly. If we could get it in there more people might try it out to have feedback for 14.04
[10:08] <knome> definitely
[10:08] <knome> and if it's in for 13.10, there's still time to test and stuff
[10:09] <cub> yup
[10:09] <knome> it's august now and we're releasing on october :)
[10:09] <smartboyhw> What happened?
[10:09] <cub> Yeah, I'm new though to the process of how to get new stuff into a release. 
[10:09] <smartboyhw> You mean, Mir/
[10:10] <smartboyhw> ?
[10:10]  * smartboyhw likes Mir:P
[10:10] <smartboyhw> knome, try it out with 13.10. If many users hate it, switch back in 14.04 will be a good idea:P
[10:10] <knome> smartboyhw, talking about orca
[10:10] <smartboyhw> knome, oh
[10:10] <cub> smartboyhw, no not Mir. I'm looking into how visually impaired/blaind people could access the Ubuntu Studio live dvd to install it.
[10:10] <smartboyhw> cub, well if we want new things we add it to seeds
[10:10] <knome> smartboyhw, i don't think that's the right way to approach things
[10:10] <smartboyhw> cub, oh, accessbility
[10:10] <smartboyhw> knome, I mean, AFTER the discussion:P
[10:11] <cub> yes, from the earlier email to the devel list
[10:11] <knome> smartboyhw, rather than seeing if people "like" it, we should make sure it works for people and has the features we're expecting it to have
[10:11] <smartboyhw> Of adding things in or something
[10:11] <smartboyhw> knome, alright...
[10:11] <knome> smartboyhw, even if it's something we know people will like, it's no good if it's not ready
[10:12] <cub> It's not hard for them once they have the installation done today, since everything is in the repos. The hard part is to do the installation without any audio feedback or braille reader
[10:12] <knome> smartboyhw, but i do see where you're coming from
[10:12] <smartboyhw> knome, so, do YOU think Mir is ready?
[10:12] <smartboyhw> xequence, ping
[10:12] <knome> smartboyhw, we're going to evaluate that in a week, but as it is *today*, nope
[10:12] <smartboyhw> A week can change a LOt
[10:12] <knome> sure
[10:13] <knome> that's why i'm not jumping into any decisions now
[10:13] <knome> but seriously, if there is no multimonitor support, it's not for us
[10:13] <cub> multi monitor would be important for US I think
[10:13] <knome> even more with vm support
[10:13] <cub> US as in Ubuntu Studio. :D
[10:13] <knome> us and US i think ;)
[10:13] <knome> and us being xubuntu
[10:13] <cub> hehe
[10:14] <knome> smartboyhw, we've done quite a lot of testing and i do think we're giving mir a fair shot
[10:14] <smartboyhw> knome, :)
[10:14] <knome> but it might be it's not for us at least before 14.10
[10:15] <smartboyhw> cub, OvenWerks xequence will you think if it's a good idea to add Mir in if Xubuntu will include Mir?
[10:15] <smartboyhw> knome, you mean, 13.10?
[10:15] <knome> smartboyhw, no, 14.10
[10:15] <smartboyhw> knome, oh
[10:15] <smartboyhw> :)
[10:15] <knome> smartboyhw, if we're not including it for 13.10, i doubt we'll include it in the LTS either
[10:15]  * smartboyhw +1's knome 
[10:16] <cub> smartboyhw, if it works and doesn't use more resources than xorg today I see no issue about using Mir. But that's my personal opinion.
[10:16] <knome> one of the snapping points is if it works for *enough* people
[10:17] <knome> and since we can't know how many users we have or for how many it will work...
[10:17] <knome> and because it's also hard to decide what is "enough"....
[10:17] <smartboyhw> knome, yeah:(
[10:17] <cub> yeah I would like to know how many users Ubuntu Studio have. I suppose it's not possible
[10:17] <smartboyhw> cub, agreed
[10:18] <smartboyhw> If we know it, peopel will be screaming at us, thinking that we are spying on them..
[10:18] <cub> exactly.
[10:18] <cub> so we should ask NSA how many users there are.
[10:19] <knome> canonical probably has some statistics
[10:19] <knome> not that they are public
[10:20] <cub> from downloads?
[10:20] <knome> yup
[10:20] <knome> and the mirrors of course
[10:20] <cub> mhm
[10:20] <knome> but naturally, one download doesn't mean one user
[10:20] <cub> no
[10:20] <knome> could be zero to dozens
[10:20] <cub> :)
[10:20] <cub> But as the homepage states "Ubuntu Studio is the most widely used multimedia orientated GNU/Linux distribution in the world."
[10:21] <knome> i don't know if you could get any real numbers, but if some mirror had stats about image downloads...
[10:21] <knome> you could compare if you've gained more users or lost some
[10:21] <knome> and that should be relatively more accurate than trying to estimate a specific number of users
[10:22] <cub> still I can download once and install on 30 pcs, or download 10 isos and only use one.
[10:22] <knome> sure
[10:23] <cub> I would just be fun to know in a ball park figure
[10:23] <knome> but if you compare download stats for two releases, installing for more/less than one user doesn't sway the stats so much
[10:23] <cub> Is it 20? 500? Thousands? Millions? Maybe not but anyhow
[10:24] <knome> i'm pretty sure it's thousands
[10:24] <knome> for starters, the @Xubuntu twitter account has ~2500 followers
[10:24] <knome> they might not all be users, but there will definitely be xubuntu users who aren't on twitter
[10:24] <knome> like my mum.
[10:24] <cub> https://twitter.com/ubuntustudio, 10 followers. Doh!
[10:24] <cub> no 36.
[10:24] <cub> wohooo
[10:25] <knome> well you've tweeted once, in january...
[10:25] <cub> hehe
[10:25] <knome> we've tweeted 239 times and last time less than a week ago
[10:26] <cub> yes, I think they have plans for all the communication platforms
[10:26] <knome> xubuntu g+, 3908 in circles
[10:26] <cub> I think zequence didn't get access to the twitter account until recently
[10:27] <knome> xubuntu on facebook, 4865 likes (xubuntu "page", ~8k likes)
[10:27] <knome> there's sure some overlap, but i'm pretty sure there are also unique ones
[10:27] <knome> and there's a lot of people who aren't on social media or are not following
[10:28] <smartboyhw> knome, cub I think the problem with the Twitter account is that even xequence does not have the access
[10:28] <knome> so by a tentative estimate, i'd say there is at least 15k xubuntu users...
[10:31] <smartboyhw> Damn, three files failed to be patched
[10:33] <cub> There, Xubuntu on FB, +1 like. ;)
[10:36] <knome> cub, heh, thanks for the contribution;)
[11:07] <smartboyhw> Hey DarkEra 
[11:08] <DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
[11:08]  * smartboyhw acks first build on linux-rt 3.10 package \o/
[11:08] <xequence> Hi. Just about to have lunch. bb shortly
[11:08] <smartboyhw> xequence, I'm having good progress here for -rt:)(
[11:09] <smartboyhw> Though I have to edit the split queue to make it patchable  
[11:36] <DarkEra> laters guys, project X-Masterbedroom is calling
[12:35] <xequence> smartboyhw: cool. I'll check it out later
[13:16] <OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I have yet to get xMIR to work on any machine.
[13:16] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh:(
[13:17] <OvenWerks> One is 10years old and the other is new.
[13:17] <cub> I got xmir on 32bit to run on both my sony vaio and asus eee pc
[13:17] <smartboyhw> *blink*
[13:17] <OvenWerks> (so new it needs a kernel newer than 3.8 to work)
[13:17] <cub> but, the 64bit iso just won't boot on my vaio
[13:18] <OvenWerks> I have yet to try any 64bit ISO
[13:18] <smartboyhw> cub, is it that your processor doesn't support 64-bit?
[13:18] <OvenWerks> I have to DL one sometime.
[13:18] <cub> no, I run US 64bit
[13:18] <cub> I think it's something going wrong when creating the usb stick.
[13:19] <xequence> Does Xmir require 3d?
[13:19] <cub> xequence, not that I notice since it ran on my eee pc
[13:19] <OvenWerks> My personal thought on xMIR/MIR is not to even look at it until after 14.04
[13:20] <xequence> cub: Those have up to date gpus
[13:20] <xequence> cub: IF you can run gnome-shell, or standard unity, the card has acceleration
[13:20] <xequence> older cards dont have that
[13:21] <xequence> OvenWerks: Thing is, we might not be running our own DE at all when releasing 14.04. 
[13:21] <cub> it can run Unity, just take a few minutes for each mouse click to register. 
[13:21] <xequence> OvenWerks: Apparently edubuntu does things this way. They base everything on Ubuntu, using overrides/additions
[13:22] <xequence> OvenWerks: I'm going to look through their code to set up something for us post 13.10 release
[13:22] <OvenWerks> xequence: that may be, but there are a lot of appliactions we ship that are picky about graphics
[13:22] <xequence> OvenWerks: We'll have to find out during 14.04 development period
[13:22] <xequence> OvenWerks: IF we support multiple DEs, we'll choose the one that is best suited as default
[13:23] <OvenWerks> We may end up sitting on top of another flavour, but we may have to "recommand" one of them.
[13:23] <OvenWerks>  :)
[13:23] <OvenWerks> Right now kde works the best for me.
[13:24] <xequence> All of them work for me. But, I don't use 10+ old machines rightnow
[13:24] <OvenWerks> I have a brand new board now too.... as of last week
[13:25] <OvenWerks> Intel D2500CC
[13:25] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, if you want to use a machine with 10+ years old, use Lubuntu:P
[13:25] <OvenWerks> Why?
[13:25] <OvenWerks> KDE works fine
[13:26] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, it's lightweight really:)
[13:26] <OvenWerks> xfce works fine for most things
[13:26] <OvenWerks> XVWM is lighter
[13:26] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, you might experience a faster OS using LXDE...
[13:26] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, what's XVWM?
[13:26] <cub> I haven't seen much difference between running lubuntu or xubuntu, a bit more resources used on Ubuntu Studio though
[13:26] <OvenWerks> maybe it FVWM
[13:27] <OvenWerks> It was pretty big before kde/gnome showed up
[13:27] <cub> but I would like, when time is available, to look into doing a really slimmed down US for audio recording
[13:28] <xequence> I've never found KDE4 particularly snappy
[13:28] <OvenWerks> cub: go headless and use nama/midish
[13:28] <xequence> I think the choice of default DE should have to criterias. It should be good as a live DE. And it should support all our applications
[13:28] <OvenWerks> xequence: yes.
[13:29] <xequence> supporting old machines is a plus, but at 2014 I'm not sure if we absolutely need to support machines older than 12 years.
[13:29] <xequence> We will still have 12.04 for a while
[13:29] <OvenWerks> It should also work on the magority of HW.
[13:30] <xequence> and we should put some effort on keeping it alive
[13:32]  * OvenWerks is off for some family time
[13:32] <xequence> cub: There's no difference at all almost
[13:33] <xequence> cub: might be, if you need to use a mass of plugins, where you really need some seriouy CPU power
[13:33] <xequence> ardour3 is way more efficient then ardour2 when it comes to that
[13:33] <xequence> OvenWerks: See you later
[13:48] <xequence> smartboyhw: I'll wait until after feature freeze until checking what you've done, but if you manage to upload to a PPA, I'll gladly try a kernel
[13:48] <smartboyhw> xequence, it should be ready before ff
[13:49] <xequence> smartboyhw: Yes, but since the time is so short, it's not a good idea to try to get the kernel in for 13.10
[13:49]  * smartboyhw agrees
[13:49] <xequence> 14.04 is our next big goal, so we should have it done by then
[13:50] <smartboyhw> xequence, and a -rt patch that can be updated with pace:P
[13:56] <cub> OvenWerks, nama has come to mind but I would like to see what could be done within Ubuntu Studio. I still like to run Ardour for instance, but perhaps on a crappy pc in the rehearsal place and then do the mixing on a more powerful pc at home.
[13:58] <cub> and after reading several old threads on how "Ubuntu Studio is bloatware" it got me curious on how slim can you go and still call it Ubuntu Studio.
[14:01] <smartboyhw> xequence, I've made a git branch for linux-meta-rt source package, see https://github.com/smartboyhw/linux-meta-rt-saucy
[14:01] <xequence> astraljava: You started working on ubiquity plugins at one point right? ubuntustudio-live source. I talked with stgraber, and he pointed me out to their source - edubuntu. I guess yours is based on that too?
[14:02] <xequence> smartboyhw: You really need to use mr Jobs face?
[14:02] <smartboyhw> xequence, I'm sorry, but Steve Jobs is my idlo LOL
[14:02] <smartboyhw> *idio
[14:02] <smartboyhw> *idiol
[14:02] <xequence> idols, who needs them..
[14:02] <smartboyhw> xequence, me:P
[14:02] <xequence> Well, it's up to you
[14:03] <xequence> but, it kind of sticks out when seen in context with Linux
[14:03] <cub> If he was alive he would probably sue you.
[14:03] <smartboyhw> cub, \o/
[14:03] <xequence> lol
[14:12] <astraljava> xequence: Yes I suppose so. It's been a long time since I took a stab at them. I'm gonna have to look them up later, sorry my memory is failing me. :/
[14:14] <smartboyhw> astraljava, how are you doing recently?
[14:57] <OvenWerks> cub: I would base the apps a sight impared user would find helpful on what sight impared people are actually using.
[14:58] <OvenWerks> There are some very simple things a sighted user does that we don't even think about that are impossible for someone who is blind.
[14:58] <OvenWerks> I find nama hard to use, becasue I have to remember so much. :)
[14:59] <OvenWerks> But, not that long ago, the linux world was text based for just about everything
[15:00] <OvenWerks> For example, try learning emacs
[15:00] <cub> OvenWerks, Orca and Brltty seems to be the most common for visually impaired. Both are in the repos.
[15:00] <OvenWerks> But emacs still has a huge following in its use area
[15:00] <cub> though from what I've read it might not work that great with Xfce
[15:00] <OvenWerks> Easy to try though.
[15:01] <OvenWerks> take even a live image and install those two apps and try it
[15:01] <cub> So I thought, but it didn't even start on my test VM. I'm going to try it at home on a "proper" laptop though
[15:01] <OvenWerks> If they work we should be able to add them
[15:02] <cub> yeah. It works with the standard Ubuntu live cd as well as the Ubuntu based Vinux
[15:02] <OvenWerks> What do those two apps do?
[15:03] <OvenWerks> you may wish to start a conversation with Julian Klassen
[15:03] <cub> Orca is a screen reader, so it basically reads everything on the screen out loud. Or can send it to a braille output
[15:03] <cub> Who is Julian Klassen, the name looks familiar
[15:03] <cub> ?
[15:04] <OvenWerks> He is a blind composer/recording artist
[15:04] <cub> brltty sends output to the braille display
[15:04] <OvenWerks> He started out trying to use a mac, but found it very frustrating.
[15:05] <OvenWerks> He switched to linux because he was able to work with it.
[15:06] <OvenWerks> With the mac he found much of his work he needed a sighted person to help with minor things like a setting.
[15:06] <cub> mhm
[15:07] <OvenWerks> None of the recording apps worked well for a blind person, not even those that were suppoedly having support for that.
[15:08] <OvenWerks> There are two people on the LAU mailing list who are blind, I have tried to think what would work best for them.
[15:08] <OvenWerks> but many of the apps they want to use require a GUI.
[15:09] <OvenWerks> for example many of the LV2 plugins do
[15:09] <cub> No I can't imagine how to work in Ardour without sight. But when I worked at the Swedish centre for visually impaired the blind sound engineers got along just fine (not with Ardour in that time though)
[15:11] <OvenWerks> I know my wife (who can see just fine) has made the effort to learn all the KB shortcuts for speed reasons. I would assume a blind person knows them better.
[15:13] <cub> I have to head home. Family waiting. :)
[15:13] <OvenWerks> But she learns them by using sight. Something that auto reads every pop up might be helpful except that most of those show when hovering a mouse or right clicking.
[15:13] <OvenWerks> TTYL
[18:59] <OvenWerks> wow our CAPS plugin package is a bit behind... we have 0.4.2 and the latest is 0.9.10
[19:00] <OvenWerks> the latest one has what looks like a nice exciter in it.
[19:07] <cub> oops
[19:08] <cub> Not a department in music where 'older is cooler' :D
[19:15] <OvenWerks> cub: That is one of the biggest problems we have. The LTS is missing so much new stuff. Each of our releases becomes important
[19:15] <OvenWerks> Thing is I am not sure what version debian has for us to sync to.
[19:35] <cub> Yes it's a mix between providing a stable platform and keep updated with the new cool stuff
[19:35] <cub> Then again, the user can always upgrade themselves.
[19:36] <cub> It's just that the support from the community might be a bit trickier.
[19:36] <cub> Which it will be when/if US become DE agnostic I suppose.
[19:36] <cub> When we try to support all different DEs
[19:39] <knome> other flavors will support the DEs
[19:52] <cub> there will always be the mix when troubleshooting
[19:56] <OvenWerks> knome: right. That is what we are relying on.
[19:57] <OvenWerks> cub: in many ways we are already DE agnostic.
[19:58] <OvenWerks> our metas can be added to any DE now.
[19:58] <OvenWerks> Our menu is just waiting for icons.
[19:58] <OvenWerks> We could add an audio-settings package on it's own or as part of the audio meta.
[20:00] <OvenWerks> cub: your earlier comment about bloatware is being addressed by allowing a user to only install the workflow they need at initial install.
[20:00] <xequence> OvenWerks: I haven't heard from madeinkobaia or a while. He's usually productive, but if for some reason he hasn't got the icons done by this weekend, I'll fix them
[20:00] <OvenWerks> xequence: great!
[20:00] <xequence> OvenWerks: There's not much more that needs to be done. But, if one likes, one could improve them somewhat
[20:01] <xequence> I'll settle for something that works
[20:01] <OvenWerks> i'm not an artist, they are already better than mine.
[20:01] <knome> xequence, you guys need a hand updating the installer slideshow?
[20:01] <knome> going to update the xubuntu one today, and i could push US changes to the main branch at the same time
[20:02] <OvenWerks> knome, I think ours is pretty much version independant
[20:02] <knome> OvenWerks, sure, just asking if you wanted to change something
[20:02] <OvenWerks> we don't have the new BG figured out I think... that would be the change
[20:02] <knome> the xubuntu one is pretty good too, but we want to change a few things this time
[20:02] <xequence> Yes, it would be good to change that image
[20:03] <xequence> We need a new wallpaper pretty quickly now
[20:03] <knome> xequence, UIF on sept 19
[20:03] <xequence> knome: Ah, right
[20:03] <OvenWerks> If there are any internet things that have a date we should look at that.
[20:03] <xequence> it's later
[20:03] <knome> sure
[20:04] <xequence> OvenWerks: What do you meanby internet things?
[20:04] <OvenWerks> in the slide show, like an email screen that says 2010 or something
[20:04] <OvenWerks> (as a message date)
[20:05] <OvenWerks> plymouth has no version
[20:05] <xequence> Don't recall anythinglike that, but we needto check either way
[20:06] <knome> just checked and looks like the only thing you need to update is the wallpaper shot and if you want, the USC image if you wish to
[20:06] <knome> bzr branch ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
[20:06] <knome> then run ./test-slideshow.sh ubuntustudio on the branch directory
[20:07] <knome> err, bzr branch lp:...
[20:09] <cub> OvenWerks, sure anyone can tweak an Ubuntu installation. But from a user support area it's always a bit more difficult trying to guide someone running another DE than the same one as myself. I mean in some cases it's hard to guide people even when we look at the same screen.
[20:10] <xequence> knome: So, are you going with LSC for 13.10?
[20:11] <knome> xequence, nope
[20:15] <cub> LSC?
[20:15] <xequence> cub: Lubuntu Software Center
[20:16] <cub> aha
[20:51] <xequence> OvenWerks: There will be a meeting on creating a multimedia blend of Debian at debconf
[20:52] <xequence> OvenWerks: That would mean they create metas sort of like we do
[20:52] <xequence> I could imagine us using those instead of our own, or maybe some combination of the two. Since, they will become available with all derivatives
[20:53] <xequence> there could be a reason to think about moving some of our source to Debian
[20:53] <xequence> would probably not be under the ubuntustudio name (not that it can't be)
[20:54] <xequence> it's important of course that we have a similar view on what we want to accomplish with those metas
[20:54] <xequence> Just an idea so far