[09:24] <k1l_> butterme2ted (~buttermel@xdsl-87-78-73-128.netcologne.de) is a german troll who is banned from all german ubuntu channels and today ban evading to spam his warsow reddit links. now just happening in -offtopic
[10:23] <ikonia> always good to know
[11:17] <DJones> ikonia: Thats the best comment/explanation I've seen for somebody not needing an excrypted /home, it makes complete sense for probably 99% of home users
[11:21] <ikonia> it's the worst thing ubuntu has done putting the encyption on the installer as an option
[12:08] <LjL-Alps> you're right - it should be default, but one step at a time
[12:11] <IdleOne> I blame the media for making it seem like "hackers" want to take every schmucks data out there.
[12:12] <jussi> i blame IdleOne... for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
[12:12] <IdleOne> you should
[12:12] <IdleOne> :)
[12:12] <k1l_> i think there are reasons to use encryption. but they are not warez or "i am so important"
[12:13] <LjL-Alps> i think there should be a general culture of privacy and encryption by default that's sorely lacking.
[12:13] <DJones> And the 13:10 BST comments in #u by cheesec4k3 completely bear out the earlier conversation
[12:13] <IdleOne> most users have no real need for encryption
[12:14] <k1l_> LjL: well, you need a behaviour fitting to the encryption. there is no need to encrypt your whole drive and all pictures if you load them up to facebook anyway
[12:37] <LjL-Alps> k1l_, there's probably no "need" to encrypt most of my phonecalls, as only a small number will have anything resembling sensitive information, yet i generally take it for granted (even though the actual encryption is weak) that a random someone can't just put a radio receiver between me and the cell tower
[12:43] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: is that actually a problem where you live?
[12:43] <IdleOne> people scanning cell signals to try and get info?
[12:44] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: probably not, *because* cell signals are encrypted. if people were still using analog (TACS) phones, then *i* could plug in my RTLSDR card and listen. (or for that matter, i could bother to learn how to break GSM's very poor encryption and use the RTLSDR for that)
[12:44] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: an RTLSDR card costs between $10 and $20, by the way
[12:45] <IdleOne> nice, so the barrier to becoming a crook is not too high.
[12:45] <IdleOne> that is good.
[12:47] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne, considering everyone gets a bunch of phishing emails and hacking attempts every day, i really don't see why one would assume things like phonecalls are not routinely phished.
[12:47] <IdleOne> One more reason why I don't own or want a cell phone
[12:47] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: i hope you don't have a landline either, since that's easier to tap into
[12:47] <AlanBell> encryption is a good thing, if people look after their private keys, which means they need to be used for everything and be of value
[12:48] <k1l_> do smoke signals still work these days? :)
[12:48] <AlanBell> home folder encryption kind of guards against a threat that isn't very real
[12:48] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: We do but I only conduct my international criminal activities face to face in the middle of the desert. Like they thought us in spy school
[12:49] <IdleOne> dessert? the one with all the sand
[12:49] <k1l_> as long as the same people give all their data and informations away for free or for some refund i dont think they need encryption at all
[12:49] <LjL-Alps> i won't get into how useful home folder encryption specifically is. however, i take issue with the stance that "if you don't have a specific need for encryption, then don't encrypt", which translates into the trite "what's the problem as long as you've got nothing to hide"
[12:50] <LjL-Alps> k1l_, that fails to take context into account. i might (not saying i am) be ok with giving Google some data because i believe they will use them for some things i am ok with, yet *not* be ok with giving the same data to someone who's just stolen my laptop
[12:50] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: my problem with home folder encryption is that people spew out all their info over the facebooks and twits anyway. So all they are protecting is stuff they are giving out for free anyway
[12:50] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: see above
[12:50] <IdleOne> I just read :)
[12:51] <k1l_> LjL-Alps: yes, i dont like the "nothing to hide" thing, too. but i dont see a point in making fort knox on the one side and shoveling all the data out at the other end
[12:51] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: it depends which data you can correlate with which.
[12:51] <jussi> anyone got any objections to that one?
[12:52] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: you may want to give person A datum X because as long as they don't also have datum Y, they can't infer things you don't want them to, yet withhold X from B because B has Y
[12:52] <IdleOne> jussi: looks fine to me
[12:52] <jussi> !no !support-#kubuntu-offtopic is <reply> The official Kubuntu support channel is #kubuntu. Also see http://kubuntu.org/support and http://kubuntuforums.org and http://askubuntu.com
[12:52] <jussi> !support-#kubuntu-offtopic is <reply> The official Kubuntu support channel is #kubuntu. Also see http://kubuntu.org/support and http://kubuntuforums.org and http://askubuntu.com
[12:53] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: I agree, but that requires a conscious application of personal security at all times, which we know most users are incapable of doing.
[12:54] <k1l_> LjL-Alps: besides a very small group of users i dont see the average joe is capable of doingt that
[12:55] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne, it's easy to consider all users stupid when the general culture that everyone has contributed to creating is one of "no privacy unless you need it, no encryption unless you need it". the general culture when, say, this WeChat "app" makes commercial on TV about giving me "free" text messages (and yet being able to afford TV commercials) should be "what?! i'm not feeding a company all my private messages in plain text"
[12:56] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: yet none of my friends seems to have a problem with using Whatsapp (or however it's spelled) because hey, it's ok for your private communication to be under constant scrutiny, what i'm being taught is only crooks wouldn't want that
[12:56] <IdleOne> I'm not calling people stupid. I am saying that people get lazy and even if they start with good practices they soon find it is easier to just go with it.
[12:57] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: good practices are being made so needlessly complicated and absurd, and oftentimes illegal, not to mention frowned upon by the masses, it's very unsurprising people very quickly give up on them. but i wouldn't blame it on *them*.
[12:58] <IdleOne> I spent years keeping my personal info concealed (name, city I live in...) after a while I just got tired of fighting the system and gave in. Now google/yahoo/facebook/younameit all know who I am.
[12:58] <k1l_> i dont think the masses are interested in that at all
[12:58] <LjL-Alps> reminds me of the netbook "failure", even though it's unrelated. computer companies decreed netbooks had "failed" with the general public, and tablets were all the new rage... after they'd (purposely?) made no technological progress on netbooks for a couple of years, and only talked tablet tablet tablet tablet
[12:58] <k1l_> most people just dont care if google or whatsapp or facebook takes the data
[12:58] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: I agree, the media and software companies make it too complicated for people to care.
[12:59] <k1l_> not everyone is a nerd who hides under a luminium hat.
[12:59] <LjL-Alps> k1l_: yes, indeed. and why aren't they? that's what i'm pondering. that's what i call the "general culture". it should be TAUGHT and ENCOURAGED and it should PERMEATE general culture that privacy is private, yet all that's ever done is paying lip service to it (by making laws that generally makes things less private than before)
[12:59] <LjL-Alps> ah fuck it
[13:00] <LjL-Alps> i knew it would end with nerds and hats
[13:00] <k1l_> and yes, encryption is still made way to complicated.
[13:00] <LjL-Alps> i just don't know why when i decide i should shut up, i don't
[13:00] <IdleOne> :(
[13:00] <k1l_> :/
[13:00] <IdleOne> not sure why he got upset
[13:01] <k1l_> i think it was my aluminium hat remark. but that wasnt meant to be personal attacking :/
[13:02] <k1l_> i just wanted to point to the difference to a small group of advanced users in difference to the masses
[13:21] <IdleOne> ubottu: project-neon is <alias> neon
[13:23] <IdleOne> !neon
[13:25] <IdleOne> This team needs some new blood
[13:33] <ikonia> which team ?
[13:33] <ikonia> the neon team ?
[13:38] <IdleOne> the ops team
[13:39] <ikonia> oh, why do you think that ?
[13:40] <IdleOne> Just cause it is good to get new ideas in the mix every now and then
[13:40] <ikonia> that sounds like just saying it for the sake of saying it
[13:40] <ikonia> to be honest, there is very little the team needs to do, and it's pretty restrictive about what can be done
[13:40] <ikonia> so I'm not sure what "new ideas" are needed
[13:41] <ikonia> charter keep channels flowing and inline with policy"
[13:41] <IdleOne> you might be right.
[13:42] <ikonia> I don't know if I am
[13:42] <ikonia> I don't really care if there are new people/no new people
[13:42] <ikonia> there just doesn't seem much scope to do "something"
[15:37] <IdleOne> keep an eye on bhavesh, his help is less than helpful
[15:40] <IdleOne> also I think x-s4nd3r is just wasting time
[15:40] <ikonia> of course he is
[15:40] <ikonia> that's why he's quoting that websit
[15:40] <ikonia> site
[15:45] <ikonia> that website is some made fools fantasy
[15:45] <ikonia> there is so little based on fact on it, it's untrue
[15:46] <IdleOne> I would like to know precisely what data leaks there are
[15:46] <ikonia> it's just some guy making stuff up
[15:46] <ikonia> and it's so badly thought through it's untrue
[15:46] <IdleOne> if the definition is broad enough I suppose anything is a data leak
[15:46] <ikonia> he's saying pidgin is safe - but msn isn't
[15:46] <ikonia> even though pidgin connects to the msn network
[15:46] <ikonia> so they monitor at the SERVER not the client
[15:47] <ikonia> and other such stupid thought processes
[15:47] <DJones> Last I tried, pidgin no longer works with MSN, so that arguement would be useless
[15:47] <ikonia> same thing though
[15:47] <ikonia> it's just basically a propritary - opensource list
[15:48] <ikonia> saying "propritary "MAY" be controlled by the gonvernment
[15:48] <ikonia> it's stupid
[15:48] <ikonia> lotus notes is on there....
[15:48] <IdleOne> I imagine is practically impossible to stay off the radar of NSA or any gov agency no matter what software you use. As long as you connect to a server they monitor you are giving them info.
[15:48] <ikonia> I don't know what people thing they are doing, I really don't
[15:48] <IdleOne> false sense of security is what they are doing
[15:48] <ikonia> don't use this mail client !!! people are watching you !!!!
[15:49] <ikonia> but then they send the email out in plaintext across the internet snooped by all ISP's anyway
[15:50] <DJones> I don't honestly think anybody can guarantee that any communication method is secure, post can be opened before delivery, emails can be read at server levels, chats can monitored, even pidgeons carrying paper messages can be bribed off course with food/shot down
[15:50] <ikonia> I do wonder what some people are doing that they feel so worried about
[15:51] <Myrtti> I use the amount of encryption that I find is feasible and has a tolerable pay/return ratio
[15:51] <IdleOne> I understand the need for privacy and I think it is unfair to use the "if you're not doing anything why worry" argument but I get what your saying
[15:51] <Myrtti> which is more than most people do, mind you
[15:51] <ikonia> Myrtti: I'm pretty sure you judge and are aware of the risks of what you send and how you send it
[15:52] <ikonia> IdleOne: you're entitled to be as private as you want
[15:52] <DJones> Probably all they're doing is reading 3rd party websites & getting caught up in paranoia, your commenty earlier about encrypted homes brought that into clarity for me
[15:52] <ikonia> IdleOne: but the level of stupidity and worry is off the chart
[15:52] <IdleOne> ikonia: indeed.
[15:52] <ikonia> such as people using certain email clients, but then sending out plain text emails
[15:52] <ikonia> if you where that worried you'd research it properly
[15:53] <ikonia> and not read some random website asking for bitcoin donations for listing opensource versions of comercial software
[15:53] <ikonia> and just saying "these "may" be a problem"
[15:53] <Myrtti> I use luks because I understand it better than encryptfs. I don't use whatsapp because I don't trust them, but I do use facebook/google products. I've started migrating my passwords from human inputs saved in the browser to random strings from keepass
[15:53] <IdleOne> I remember explaining to my dad years ago that all of his emails were potentially unsafe and that he should assume nothing was private. He didn't understand the nature of how email worked and that it passed through several hands before it got to the destination.
[15:54] <Pici> tubes :(
[15:55] <IdleOne> after that he started being a lot more careful, almost to a point of paranoia. I had to re-explain that his work emails were not of interest to anybody except to him and his intended reader. He calmed down after that.
[15:56] <IdleOne> but it just shows that people have no clue how the internet works and they just read the This is safe part and don't read further.
[15:56] <ikonia> I don't mind that people have no clue, it's not their job to
[15:56] <ikonia> I do mind people making stuff up though, or being utter stupid when you clearly explain the issue
[15:57] <ikonia> that guy who wanted to lock his ISP out of his VM at the host level because he was worried about them reading his email was prime
[15:57] <IdleOne> heh
[15:57] <ikonia> couldn't grasp his email was being sent to the mail server plain, and going out of the server plain and hte people he wanted to lock out would just read it on the gateway or relay if they wanted to
[15:57] <ikonia> but he was obsessed with it
[15:58] <ikonia> same as this guy quoteing the prism-break website written / made up by some random guy asking for bitcoins, with no fact or logic behind it
[15:58] <ikonia> I read it on a random website, nothing ot back up, just written down, it's fact
[15:58] <IdleOne> there is plenty of logic. My guess is it is intentionally worded in a way to frighten people
[16:08] <ikonia> love how stupid that prism-break site is, it says twitter is a risk and don't use it, but the author uses it and updates status on twitter https://twitter.com/zcpeng
[16:08] <Pici> heh
[16:09] <IdleOne> haha
[16:09] <Myrtti> twitter is alright if you don't use it to communicate delicate information between people in DM
[16:09] <IdleOne> DM?
[16:09] <Myrtti> and actually use it to broadcast messages publically, as it is intended
[16:09] <ikonia> Myrtti: acording to prism-break, it's bad it's a risk - don't use it,
[16:09] <Myrtti> direct message
[16:09] <Pici> Myrtti: Right.  Thats what email is for.
[16:09] <IdleOne> oh
[16:09] <ikonia> then he uses it himself,
[16:09] <ikonia> that's ammused me for today
[16:10] <Myrtti> twitter is a bit silly anyway
[16:10] <ikonia> his whole website is silly
[16:11] <Myrtti> people need to browse /r/aww more
[16:11] <IdleOne> more kittens
[16:12] <ikonia> I will go and play some games now, smug in prism-break owners shame
[16:12] <IdleOne> If an alien race ever scans the internet to learn about us they will end up killing all the kittens because they would assume they rule this planet
[16:15] <ikonia> love it "I'm building a cyber cafe but have no idea how to actually check if software works"
[16:15] <ikonia> perhaps not starting a business that relies on computers and software is a better move
[16:16] <jbroome> yikes
[16:17] <IdleOne> at least he is trying to get some sort of info
[16:17] <ikonia> the idea of me walking into a toyota garage and saying "I'm starting a car customization service, but I don't really know what spanners I need can you help" - makes me shudder, yet that's what these people do every day
[16:17] <jbroome> There was a guy that liked to hang out in #centos that's running a shell service, that he's taking $ for asking the most basic stuff
[16:17] <ikonia> jbroome: I know exactly who you mean
[16:17] <jbroome> :)
[16:18] <jbroome> Learning linux is a-ok and fine.  Taking people's money while you do it, not so much
[16:18] <ikonia> I don't mind people knowing nothing, or wanting to learn but
[16:18] <ikonia> "I'm starting a business dependant on linux, please tell me how to power it on" is just bad
[16:18] <IdleOne> there is a guy who runs a web design/hosting service in #kubuntu-offtopic who asks some basic questions too :)
[16:18] <ikonia> IdleOne: please don't start me on him
[16:19] <IdleOne> haha
[16:19] <ikonia> it actually annoys me that he charges people money for repeating what he's told in these channels
[16:19] <ikonia> I find it genuinly offensive that it's basicallly an unofficial support proxy for his business
[16:19] <IdleOne> cases like that I think we should be allowed to tell them to google it
[16:20] <jbroome> or i email them my rate sheet
[16:20] <ikonia> cases like that I think you should phone their client with a log of the "how do I setup a mail server" question, saying "this is the guy you are paying to setup and manage your mail server"
[16:22] <jbroome> ..and here's *my* rate sheet. :)
[16:22] <ikonia> here is my trackrecord, you'll notice I've not been fired from my last two jobs for telling lies about what I can do - like your current provider
[16:23] <ikonia> you are the person in questions 3rd employer, his previous two fired him after 2 weeks
[16:23] <ikonia> I suggest you re-adjust your support requirements