bluemirsabreglxgears seems to be running pretty well, though I don't know how it would normally run for me on nouveau00:02
bluemirsabreactually, moving my mouse sporadically makes glxgears slow down00:06
bluemirsabrefrom 80 fps to 3000:06
bluemirsabrebrb, going to test glxgears in saucy without mir00:07
jjfrv8Unit193, just installed r970 and have been poking it like you've described. Sorry to report no issues so far. :)00:08
jjfrv8Xeon E3-1200 v2/3rd Gen Core processor Graphics Controller00:08
Unit193jjfrv8: Dang, well thanks for trying at least.  Results to the pad?00:22
jjfrv8Doing it now.00:22
jjfrv8Ooops. Spoke to soon. Logged out and got stobing background. Logged back in and Xorg crashed.00:25
Unit193jjfrv8: How'd it compare to open source Xorg drivers without mir?  (glxgears)00:51
jjfrv8How do I get there? Can I just reboot and pick my other Saucy image from grub? Or do I need to make it fall back somewhow?00:53
Unit193As long as you don't have a OEM driver, sure.00:55
Unit193If it's not a bother, that is.00:55
jjfrv8Unit193, 60 fps01:01
Unit193Hrm, that's greatly less than the XMir one.01:02
jjfrv8for sure!01:02
* Unit193 is very confused.01:06
bluesabreonly the proprietary drivers seem to be able to sync correctly02:06
bluesabreperfect 60fps with nvidia02:06
Unit193Minor weird thing, but topic: change the wiki link to http://ubottu.com/y/xubmap and change https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule to http://ubottu.com/y/saucysch ?06:16
elfyI'll not make the meeting this afternoon, for what it's worth - I still have the same issues with xmir - no updates for it recently. I'll not use it in the state it's in. 07:17
Unit193Same here, it's almost usable on the netbook, but not even close on anything else.07:18
Unit193You can see all my testing data on the pad and wikipage.07:18
elfywell it is usable - but I'll not put up with it not keeping up with me in normal use - typing is fine - it's just the refresh of pages annoying me07:19
smartboyhwI won't gamble on it for 13.10 either....07:19
Unit193I'd personally count that as almost usable or less if it's not keeping up even.07:22
elfyit might be usable Unit193 but if we send xubuntu out like it then I'll stop using it07:24
elfyI'm not willing to go backwards so that someone somewhere can say "ooh look see people are using mir"07:26
Unit193I just didn't know how to basically say that without coming off as "If I don't get my way..." style.  I can always remove mir (before I put it live of course), and I honestly gave it a shot.07:29
elfywell yea - I'm not saying that 07:32
Unit193I know.07:32
elfyas long as people know I'm not being petulant :)07:33
elfyanyway - work calls - shall read logs later07:33
knomelderan, does that only have versionId -> 13.10, or could one get the codename out of it as well?09:58
lderanat the moment it just scans the html and replaces .versionId10:00
lderanoh yeah10:00
lderancan do codename too10:00
lderantho it comes up with ubuntu for the distro name :(10:00
knomei don't think the distro name is a problem10:01
knomethat's specific to the slideshow, but not version10:01
knomeso there's no reason to try to get it dynamically10:01
knomeit's always Xubuntu in the Xubuntu slideshow10:02
lderanshall add the version name to it this evening10:02
knomeshall test that out after that then10:02
knomebut looking at the code, i have no doubts it wouldn't work10:02
lderanthank you10:04
lderanaye not much has been added :P10:04
knomelinked the bug to your branch10:07
lderanah cool thanks10:16
texadactylMy 1st time at an xchat mtg.  Do you folks use audio?13:41
texadactylNow that's a change from corporate USA!  (-:13:42
OvenWerksMany of us use a commandline irc client on a remote server :)13:42
smartboyhwOvenWerks, eh, I use XChat here...13:42
* smartboyhw hates CLI IRC clients13:42
texadactylme too13:42
texadactylXchat on Saussy13:42
OvenWerksxchat is a good client.13:42
texadactylXubuntu on Saussy has become my regular machine13:43
OvenWerksirssi on screen lets me use the same running client on more than one machine at a time.13:43
smartboyhwtexadactyl, it's Saucy13:43
smartboyhwNot Saussy...13:43
texadactylI failed spelling13:44
* OvenWerks did too13:44
* smartboyhw normally doesn't13:44
OvenWerksthat would be my guess13:44
texadactylWould love to get XMir to initialize.  Lightdm always falls back to X13:45
OvenWerksThat pretty much depends on your graphics chip13:45
texadactylIntel Mini-ITX Cedar View (GMA3650)13:46
OvenWerksif xMIR doesn't know what to do with your chip it falls back to X13:46
texadactylNever fails that test13:46
texadactylVery stable, faster than 13.0413:46
OvenWerksmy personal opinion is no MIR till after 14.0413:46
texadactylLet ubie be the pioneer?13:47
smartboyhwOvenWerks, same from me too13:48
OvenWerksThere has been a lot of changes in the multi-media production SW and so up grading to 13.10 or 14.04 is going to be very worth while. a buggy MIR could really hurt people who rely on US for everyday work13:49
texadactylGood point about everyday stability13:49
OvenWerksIt is one thing to have a desktop that runs office and a browser, but another to try and test US entire SW suite13:50
texadactylUnfortunately, at the moment, there are no easy options for "Try XMir" and "Stop trying XMir".13:51
smartboyhwOvenWerks, don't forget, this is not a US channel and texadactyl may not know what is US:P13:51
texadactylIt would not be a difficult utility to develop, though.13:51
texadactylI do know what "US:P" is and my skin is very thick!  (-: 13:52
lderantexadactyl: something that makes it fallback to x mmm you could propose that to the mir people13:52
texadactylI think that its a LightDM utility13:53
texadactylswitch between the two13:53
texadactylBTW, werks, I've spent 1/2 of my adult life out of the US13:54
lderanUS:P according to google is the U.S. Pharmacopeial Convention13:54
smartboyhwtexadactyl, US != United States of America (at least in OvenWerks and my terms)13:54
OvenWerksUS in this case = ubuntustudio which relies on xubuntu13:54
ubottuUbuntuStudio is a collection of packages for the artist who wishes to use Ubuntu as their Digital Audio Workstation. It contains all the best Audio/Visual components from the Ubuntu repositories. For more info and install instructions, join #ubuntustudio or see http://ubuntustudio.org13:54
smartboyhw(Sorry for OT)13:55
texadactylAt hacker sites, US:P means something else13:55
OvenWerksthere is some people who try to help both. Any work we do for xubuntu helps studio.13:56
smartboyhwtexadactyl, well when I am saying US:P I mean they don't know what is "US" :P13:57
* GridCube is here for the meeting \o14:48
smartboyhwo/ (as an audience)14:48
texadactylLen, Mir could be safely released if LightDM was changed slightly to decide whether or not to launch Mir based on a lightdm.conf (new) parameter (switch).  By default, it should probably be off.14:48
texadactylSo, if you want to experiment with Mir, edit the file (turn on switch) and reboot.14:49
texadactylAt the moment, the Xubuntu LightDM seems to be predisposed to unconditionally attempt Mir14:50
texadactylSeems like an easy and low-risk change to me14:50
micahgshould that depend on which env you select in the greeter?14:50
micahgmaybe not14:51
micahgwell, the issue is the greeter is sitting on top of whatever display server already14:51
texadactylDecision is long before greeter14:52
texadactylCheck out the /var/log/lightdm/ logs14:53
micahgsure, but the greeter is the first chance a user has to select env :)14:54
texadactylE.g. in my case, if there was such a switch, I'd try it once, see that LightDM falls back, and then set the config switch back to default (off).14:54
micahgaside from grub boot (which isn't visible in most cases anymore14:54
texadactylafter grub and before greeter14:54
texadactylLightDM is an upstart14:55
GridCubeMeeting time?14:56
micahgupstart is system interaction, not user, but yeah, there could be a switch somewhere in the upstart layer14:56
skellatRounding up bugs14:56
smartboyhwtexadactyl, you mean, an upstart job?14:56
* smartboyhw calls for Dear knome 14:56
tvoss_hey all :)14:56
texadactylDo a ps ax.....you'll see that lightdm is soon after cron in process id value14:56
jonofor those who don't know him, tvoss_ is technical architect for Mir :-)14:57
tvoss_smartboyhw, hey there :)14:57
smartboyhwtvoss_, :)14:57
smartboyhwNice to meet you again:P14:57
texadactylMeeting time, rubber time?  (:14:58
tvoss_smartboyhw, yup14:58
GridCube:) ohai!14:59
ollihi everybody15:01
smartboyhwWelcome Mir team:P15:01
* smartboyhw is just an audience anyway15:01
micahgknome: ping?15:01
texadactylHe's grey15:02
smartboyhwIs pleia2 attending?15:02
smartboyhwtexadactyl, that's why we need to get him here;P15:02
micahgplease note this meeting is just a checkpoint meeting to make sure we're on track for a decision next week and to make sure we're communicating effectively with the Mir team about outstanding issues15:02
GridCubesmartboyhw: pleia2 has excused herself, she is not feeling well15:02
smartboyhwGridCube, :(15:02
smartboyhwThe decision is NEXT WEEK...15:03
micahgfor Xubuntu, probably15:03
smartboyhwmicahg, is next meeting next Thursday?15:03
smartboyhwBecause I have to remind you guys, it's 12.04.3 release day15:03
micahgsmartboyhw: that's great, I think we forgot about that...15:03
micahgknome: are we releasing 12.04.3?15:03
knomei'm sorry i've a few minutes late15:03
knomemicahg, we should, we even did one SRU bug procedure..15:04
micahgsmartboyhw: I don't think that being a release day will impact our need for a decision though15:04
smartboyhwmicahg, sure:)15:04
knome#startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting15:04
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Aug 15 15:04:52 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.15:04
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired15:04
micahgknome: do we have images/testers?15:04
smartboyhwmicahg, I will test for you guys:)15:04
micahgknome: we're still oversized I think, I should fix that15:05
knomemicahg, yes, we'll have testers15:05
knomemicahg, but we also need the SRU uploaded15:05
skellatmicahg: And that SRU kinda needs to be done eventually15:05
knome(it's the docs)15:05
micahgknome: SRU won't be in 12.04.315:05
knomemicahg, aha?15:05
* smartboyhw thinks we should get the main topic back on track so the Mir team doesn't get confused:P15:05
knomemicahg, then i don't know why we're releasing.15:05
knome#topic Items carried on15:06
micahgknome: updated kernel?15:06
micahgknome: let's discuss later15:06
* knome shrugs15:06
tvoss_smartboyhw, no worries, all good on this end :)15:06
knome#action bluesabre to create a basic user-profile-image app 15:06
meetingologyACTION: bluesabre to create a basic user-profile-image app15:06
knome#action team to write lightdm greeter testcase15:07
meetingologyACTION: team to write lightdm greeter testcase15:07
knome#nick team15:07
knome#action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so 15:07
meetingologyACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so15:07
knomei think those are the open items15:08
knome#topic Team updates15:08
knomeapart from Mir testing, what's up?15:08
knome(please use #info)15:08
skellat#info skellat prepared an SRU bug for the revised documentation for 12.0415:09
knomemicahg, can we discuss why we can't get that uploaded and in the SRU?15:09
GridCube#info Desktop of the week will choose and propose the first desktop for tomorrow, we hope it gets its proper place in the main site and social networks15:09
micahgknome: week before image release is too late for an SRU15:09
micahgit takes 7 days to get through -proposed15:10
knomemicahg, it is a documentation update, and the bug has been ready for ages15:10
lderan#info adding in the ability for the installation slideshow to automatically use the version number, and soon the version name15:10
micahgknome: right, but needs to be uploaded15:10
skellat#info Unit193 and GridCube both made waves in media relative to the experimental XMir image15:10
knomemicahg, sure. but there has been enough time to do that.15:10
micahgknome: right, but as no one has done it, it doesn't go in15:11
smartboyhw#info 12.04.3 is next week...15:11
micahgwe can have it in updates a week from Monday hopefully, i'll try to upload this weekend15:11
skellat#info skellat will be presenting UbuCon at Ohio Linux Fest 2013 and intends to represent Xubuntu whilst there15:12
knomemicahg, is it a given that it takes a week, or can we make it happen faster by poking the right people?15:12
micahgknome: it would need to be in already to get on the image15:13
knomeGridCube, we'll have to see how to incorporate the gallery to the website. selecting is fine this week, but can we postpone release to next week, say mon/tue?15:13
micahgwe lost track of the release schedule unfortunately, so we weren't ready15:13
GridCubeknome: ill inform the team then15:14
knomeGridCube, thanks15:14
micahgif I would've remembered, i would've uploaded already15:14
knomemicahg, we didn't - we just didn't have uploaders handy. we need to do something for that15:14
knomemicahg, if i can sort the rest of the bureaucracy and social things out, can you upload today?15:14
GridCube#action: GridCube to inform the desktop of the week team that the site will be ready next week, we should prepare a few options for the upcoming weeks15:14
meetingologyACTION: : GridCube to inform the desktop of the week team that the site will be ready next week, we should prepare a few options for the upcoming weeks15:14
skellatRequests were made to multiple SRU vanguards as per procedure15:15
micahgknome: sure15:15
knomemicahg, thanks15:15
knome#action knome to make sure the docs hit the 12.04.3 SRU15:15
meetingologyACTION: knome to make sure the docs hit the 12.04.3 SRU15:15
micahgskellat: SRU people can't do anything until it's uploaded15:15
knome#action micahg to upload docs SRU15:15
meetingologyACTION: micahg to upload docs SRU15:15
micahgif someone would've just reminded me 12.04.3 is coming I would've done it15:15
skellatmicahg: Acknowledged.15:15
micahgI didn't realize we were up against a dealine15:15
* smartboyhw has, but too late:P15:16
knomeyeah, ACK15:16
lderanGridCube: when & how are we deciding on the desktop? a mini meeting at some point?15:16
knome#topic Announcements15:16
knomei had one but i forgot...15:16
smartboyhwknome, :O15:16
* knome shrugs15:16
knomeanybody else+15:16
skellatAnybody who has Xubuntu stuff they would like to have given away at Ohio Linux Fest...please let me know15:16
knomeskellat, when is that?15:17
skellatSeptember 13th will be UbuCon15:17
knomeskellat, and, you should probably ask pleia2 if she has any excess15:17
knomeskellat, or if we could make unixstickers.com send you some15:17
knome(they usually share revenue, but since we can't take money, they'll send us free swag now and then)15:18
GridCubelderan: probably trhough the mails15:18
skellatAnybody who is within the team and is able to make it to UbuCon is more than welcome to join us.  UbuCon will be free to attend on the 13th of September.  There will be standing recognition at the start of the day for all Ubuntu Member folks in attendance.15:18
knomehave fun there skellat :)15:18
GridCubelderan: not all the people in the desktop of the week can joing irc at the same time15:19
lderanGridCube: sounds good to me15:19
knomelderan, GridCube, can we discuss this at the end of the meeting?15:19
GridCubesure, sorry15:19
knome#topic New and emerging items15:19
knome#subtopic Mir: Feedback and discussion, roadmapping the last week before decisions 15:20
knomeUnit193, skellat, people: floor's yours15:20
skellatI have some relevant bugs to lay out for the purposes of today's discussion15:20
skellatLP Bug #110275715:20
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1102757 in Mir "System compositor children receive all input events" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/110275715:20
skellatLP Bug #119623915:20
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1196239 in Mir "Cannot change display resolution" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/119623915:21
skellatLP Bug #119581115:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1195811 in linux (Ubuntu) "nouveau: Abnormally high FPS (no vsync) on natively mir testing demo-clients." [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/119581115:21
skellatLP Bug #119322215:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1193222 in XMir "Screen never sleeps; missing power management" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/119322215:21
skellatLP Bug #110996315:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1109963 in Mir "Mir lacks a direct rendering ("bypass") mode" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/110996315:21
skellatLP Bug #110276015:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1102760 in XMir "Multi-monitor support incomplete - can't show different images on each screen" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/110276015:21
* tvoss_ waits a little :)15:22
skellatFirst off, I want to thank tvoss_ for joining us today.15:22
tvoss_skellat, thanks for having me here :)15:22
GridCube:) yes, thank you tvoss_ 15:22
skellatThe bugs mentioned above look like the most major ones we need to worry about.15:22
skellatOur goal in considering XMir/Mir overall is to address whether or not this represents an overall regression.15:22
tvoss_skellat, sure, want me to quickly walk through them and relate them to the team's roadmap/current work?15:23
skellatWill XMir/Mir present an experience to the user that markedly differs from that in 13.04, 12.10, and 12.04.15:23
skellattvoss_: Hold on just a moment15:23
tvoss_skellat, sure :)15:23
skellatWe also have a request made via Jono Bacon to hold off on making our decision as some code is expected to land on August 22nd to address multi-monitor support and composite bypass.15:24
skellatBefore we get too far along, I would hand over to tvoss_ to address the Mir crew's roadmap/current work.15:24
knomevery well :) tvoss_: welcome!15:25
skellattvoss_: The floor is yours15:25
tvoss_skellat, thanks :) so first off: thanks for testing Mir, and for putting together the iso. For the bugs that skellat layed out here: multi-monitor and composite bypass are features that the team is actively working upon15:26
tvoss_for composite bypass, that would be 1109963, for multi-monitor work 1102760 and 119623915:27
jono(btw, I created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mir/GPUTesting for tracking testing for different GPUs)15:27
knometvoss_, jono pointed out that the deadline for those is August 22, is this still the target?15:27
tvoss_knome, yup, the team is committed to land those features by that date15:27
olliknome, we target landing on 8/2215:28
ollibut reality might have us +/-1d15:28
tvoss_olli, true, thanks 15:28
knometvoss_, olli: if you could keep us informed on that, would be great; aug 22 is set as our decision date, and if everything else seems to work for us we might want to postpone that a *few* days (not a week)15:29
tvoss_knome, sure, we will make sure you are up to date. I would think a post to your ml is okay?15:29
olliknome, our goal is to have the features available (and backed by a larger call for testing) with enough time to Feature Freeze on 8/2915:29
jonoknome, we will definitely keep you informed15:29
knometvoss_, definitely. if you send me your email i can add it to auto-approved if you aren't subscribed (olli as well)15:30
skellatA small preference would be to avoid having to make the decision during the UDS timeframe15:30
tvoss_knome, thanks15:31
tvoss_skellat, noted down15:31
ollitvoss_, shall we talk about the list of bugs skellat posted earlier15:32
tvoss_olli, yeah, just looking at them again, filtering out the multi-monitor and bypass bugs/features15:32
ollifyi: we consider MultiMonitor and composite bypass as major feature deliveries, whereas missing dpms is a bug at this stage15:32
olliusing dpms as an example15:33
tvoss_yeah, for #1102757: vt switching is working now with XMir from the archive and I *think* the bug is fixed, too. Will check with the team tomorrow and update the status15:34
jonoskellat, why not make the decision in the UDS timeframe? isn't that what UDS is for? :-)15:34
smartboyhwjono, I think the problem is that Xubuntu needs to make the FF15:35
tvoss_olli, skellat for the dpms bug: Mir is capable of switching off the screen, we need to wire that up to the X side of things15:35
smartboyhwWhich is on 29th15:35
smartboyhwFF = Feature Freeze15:35
skellatjono: I'll come to that in a moment but we need to let the folks from the Mir crew continue15:35
jonosmartboyhw, ahh I see, too close to FF15:35
* GridCube wonders if canonical would'nt just disregard the problems with ff in this matter15:35
jonoagreed about making the decision earlier :-)15:35
skellatGridCube, that would be jumping ahead to another question.  But since we've disposed of LP Bug #1102757 let us let the Mir crew continue.15:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1102757 in Mir "System compositor children receive all input events" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/110275715:36
tvoss_skellat, finally: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1195811 is being worked upon, too. It turns out to be an issue in the kernel (as per the comment stream on the bug) and we are making progress on it15:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1195811 in linux (Ubuntu) "nouveau: Abnormally high FPS (no vsync) on natively mir testing demo-clients." [Undecided,In progress]15:36
skellattvoss_: For that we had bluesabre experience it in testing Wednesday night directly15:37
tvoss_skellat, ah, with XMir?15:38
skellatAny coordination with the Kernel crew on resolving that issue?15:38
tvoss_skellat, mlankhorst is looking into it, he is pretty familiar with the nouveau and kernel drm bits15:38
texadactyltvoss, I'd like to see a Mir on/off switch in lightdm.conf so that folks choose whether to try Mir or go straight to X15:38
ollitexadactyl, that's in place15:39
tvoss_texadactyl, yeah. so you can disable Mir bei either apt-get removing unity-system-compositor or by commenting out type=unity in /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf.d/10-unity-system-compositor.conf15:40
smartboyhwI think he wants a GUI one....15:40
tvoss_texadactyl, that's what I use to do benchmarking for example15:40
texadactyldont need a gui15:40
smartboyhwtexadactyl, heh, say it earlier and I would've told you that:)15:40
texadactylWhich parameter tag for lightdm.conf?15:40
GridCubeGUIs are always good15:41
texadactylSure but a parameter is enough15:41
smartboyhwtexadactyl, in /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf.d/10-unity-system-compositor.conf15:42
smartboyhwComment out type=unity if you don't want Mir15:42
tvoss_texadactyl, so are you happy with commenting out type=unity in /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf.d/10-unity-system-compositor.conf?15:42
texadactylI was hoping for a flag type of parameter in /etc/lightdm.conf15:42
texadactylbut ok15:42
skellatOkay, if we can come back to LP Bug #1196239...I was wondering if the Mir crew could explain that issue a little further if possible.15:42
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1196239 in Mir "Cannot change display resolution" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/119623915:42
GridCubeshouldnt it be type=mir?15:42
smartboyhwGridCube, no:P15:43
GridCubetype=unity makes no much sense to me15:43
texadactylNo, "unity" is correct15:43
tvoss_skellat, looking again15:43
GridCubeits not unity we want to disable its mir...15:43
smartboyhwGridCube, because XMir needs the Unity System Compositor to work15:43
smartboyhwThat's why...15:43
texadactylunity-system-compositor is the executable that does the detection of graphics card15:44
texadactylIn my case, it gives up    )-:15:44
GridCubethen, it should be the whole of that15:44
tvoss_GridCube, in that case: just apt-get remove unity-system-compositor15:44
texadactylBut we want folks who are able to try it15:45
texadactylBlowing up is ok15:45
texadactylIts part of the experience, yes?15:45
skellatOkay, I think that line of discussion needs to be parked for the moment.  We can come back to it but we need to handle this last bug issue.15:45
GridCubewell no, thats not either, if its a setting, like to test no mir, then i would think its "use-mir=false" or something like that, but again im not a programmer and you know more15:45
texadactylagreed, cube15:45
tvoss_skellat, so for the resolution bug: as mentioned on the comment stream, that is part of multi-monitor work. Mir is taking over display detection and configuration in the system-compositor scenario15:45
texadactylput it in lightdm.conf15:45
skellattvoss_: Okay, so that is folded into the whole matter.15:46
tvoss_skellat, right, and X's xrandr is wired up to Mir in the XMir scenario15:46
tvoss_skellat, that wasn't the case when the bug was filed but will be enabled by multi-monitor support15:47
skellattvoss_: A tricky set of legacies developed over 25 years that have had to be untangled in a very short amount of time, then?15:47
skellatNow, to get back to the question from jono about avoiding UDS for making a decision.15:48
tvoss_skellat, yes, but xrandr is straightforward enough to be able to wire it up to mir and its client side api15:48
skellatThe main reason we need to avoid UDS is because UDS-1308 falls around Feature Freeze.  Due to the varying schedules of our team, it must be remembered that last UDS we de-coupled from it to have the "Three Nights of Xubuntu" outside the UDS schedule so we could get maximum participation.15:49
skellatFor a decision this major we want to ensure we have it done somewhat before Feature Freeze and so that our uploader developers are also able to fully chime in.15:49
skellatThey have complicated schedules and their participation is essential.15:50
skellatThere has already been mailing list discussion about how to handle announcing during the UDS time period whatever decision we make but nothing final has come of that yet.15:50
jonoskellat, as I said, I now understand your point15:50
jonoI forgot FF was the same few days as UDS15:51
jonoagreed in making a decision earlier15:51
knomejono, generally, from my POV, it is really weird that vUDS is literally ending up on the day of FF15:51
jonoknome, well, UDS is designed to plan the next three months of work15:51
knomethis makes it prone for developers to announce new things that "need" to be in the release really close to the deadlines15:52
knomesure. then why not schedule it after the FF, if it has no connection with that?15:52
knomeeverybody is busy before FF anyway15:52
knomejust saying, for future considerations15:52
jonoknome, well, that issue is not an issue with UDS timing but with the devs ;-)15:52
knomewell, it is15:52
jonodevs should not be announcing things that have to be in with a day's notice :-)15:52
knomeno, but devs are the ones that are attending UDS15:53
micahgdevs shouldn't be wasting time with days of meetings before FF15:53
jonoknome, I guess I don't understand the problem with UDS timing here15:53
knomeand if that's right before FF, it's bad scheduling15:53
jonooh I see15:53
jonoso the issue is devs focusing on UDS and not release?15:53
jonowe will try to prevent that in future15:53
jonofair point15:53
xequencewhy not have a UDS right after release, as usual? 15:54
knome(and the other point is that we've seen late announcements before, and from my POV, vUDS days before FF sounds a bad idea regarding that)15:54
xequenceand the next one 3 months after that15:54
knomeor, announcing features that *will* land before FF, but basically makes everybody fix and tweak a lot of things15:54
knomejono, if you see where i'm coming from?15:55
jonoknome, yup15:55
skellatRight now I want to thank the Mir crew representatives for joining us and for all the hard work they've put into the monumental task they're undertaking.  Before we go into any questions, the last question I want to be put to the Mir crew is whether or not the somewhat general Feature Freeze exception for Touch announced by Steve Langasek would also allow continuing effort to be put in indirectly to land further refinements to desktop display15:55
jonoI agree in making UDS after FF15:55
knomejono, great, thanks.15:55
jonoknome, will check the release schedule more rigorously in future when picking dates :-)15:56
xequenceoct, jan, april, july (I suppose July is not a good month for UDS)15:56
knomejono, great15:56
smartboyhwjono, will that be in effect for this UDS?15:56
jonosmartboyhw, I am not changing the dates of the UDS in two weeks, no15:56
jonobut the following one we will assess the release schedule more closely15:56
knomethanks olli and tvoss_!15:56
knome(and jono)15:57
knomeif nobody has anything else regarding mir, let's move on15:57
jonothanks, folks15:57
tvoss_knome and all, thanks for the invitation and thanks for your feedback :)15:57
olliskellat, re FFe: we target to not use an FFe for Mir/Xmir15:57
skellatolli: Excellent.15:57
ollifor features specifically15:57
skellatThank you for joining us gentlemen.15:58
knometvoss_, olli: no problem! if it fits your schedule, i'm sure people won't mind you being around next week at the same time and place15:58
olliwe acknowledge that by 8/29 there will probably be bugs lingering15:58
smartboyhwolli, if it's just bugfixes you don't need an FFe anyway:P15:58
olliwhich we hope to squash well before Final Freeze15:58
tvoss_knome, yup, I will be around15:58
knometvoss_, cheers!15:58
knomeolli, if you PM me your email address, i can add it to auto-approve on our developer mailing list15:59
knome#subtopic Proposal for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs15:59
knomeskellat, want to postpone?15:59
olliknome, thx, will be here15:59
knomeskellat, or want to go ahead?15:59
skellatknome: Carry over15:59
knome#subtopic Inclusion of Xfce 4.11 components in Xubuntu 13.1015:59
knomei'm quite tight on time, but...15:59
knomei would think we should cherry-pick some components15:59
micahgthat needs input from mr_pouit and I don't see him around16:00
knomeNoskcaj has been packaging some already16:00
knomei'll get ahold of mr_pouit 16:00
knomebasically, what i'm thinking is:16:00
knomexfce 4.12 won't be released before 13.10 FF16:00
knomeit's not clear if it's released before 14.04 FF16:00
knomethe 4.11 components have things that we've been preparing for some time already, and it would be quite sad to not have them in the LTS16:01
micahgwell, if it were just the first issue and not the second, I'd happily take them now16:01
knomeand since they are ready now, i don't see any reason not to include them now (also to have a larger testing base)16:01
micahgit's the second that concerns me, so that why I'd rather have mr_pouit's input16:02
knomenot being ready for 14.04?16:02
micahgwe have to worry about the LTS -> LTS upgrades both ways16:02
knomei mean, i'd still want *some* 4.11 stuff in 14.04 anyway16:02
knometo name a specific feature, i would like the display-dialog in 13.1016:03
knomethere's also a patch that allows gtk3 indicators work on a gtk2 panel16:03
knomeit's not clear if it's ever going to be included in xfce itself, but it's something we might want to consider, as ochosi said16:03
micahgpatches we can cherry pick if needed16:03
micahgas for the feature stuff, if mr_pouit signs off, I'll do my best to get stuff in by FF16:04
knomei *know* it brings a delta, and i *know* it's more maintaining, but realistically, it's something we want more than the xfce team needs16:04
knomeso, anyway...16:06
knome#action knome to contact mr_pouit about including xfce 4.11 stuff in 13.1016:06
meetingologyACTION: knome to contact mr_pouit about including xfce 4.11 stuff in 13.1016:06
micahgwell, GTK3 indicators on GTK2 panel would mean dropping a lot of the GTK 2 indicator stack, so that's a big win16:06
knomedefinitely, and would mean we could lose some maintaining from that side16:07
micahgand get the messages indicator back ;)16:07
knomelet's discuss this throughout the week more16:08
knome#subtopic Schedule next meeting16:08
knome#info Next meeting is August 22, 15UTC.16:08
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Aug 15 16:08:38 2013 UTC.  16:08
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-08-15-15.04.moin.txt16:08
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-08-15-15.04.html16:08
knomethanks everybodu!16:08
smartboyhwknome, :)16:08
knomei'll update the logs later today16:08
knomeok, i'm off for now.16:12
knomesee you later16:12
knome(i'll try to handle the SRU stuff later)16:13
elfyknome: just so you are aware - the lightdm greeter testcase hasn't been written yet because of the bug in it - when that's dealt with I can do the testcase - will take no time at all17:16
Unit193tvoss_: One question I didn't see asked, and couldn't make the meeting.  Where does virtual support stand?18:07
tvoss_Unit193, on the list, but bypass and multi-monitor have a higher priority. I will cross-check with the team though18:12
Unit193Of course, but last I saw was a comment "We don't need this for 13.10" :/18:18
OvenWerkscub: in #xubuntu-devel "< texadactyl> Len, Mir could be safely released if LightDM was changed  slightly to decide whether or not to launch Mir based on a  lightdm.conf (new) parameter (switch).  By default, it  should probably be off.19:32
OvenWerkscub: in #xubuntu-devel "< texadactyl> Len, Mir could be safely released if LightDM was changed  slightly to decide whether or not to launch Mir based on a  lightdm.conf (new) parameter (switch).  By default, it  should probably be off.19:32
OvenWerkscub: in #xubuntu-devel "< texadactyl> Len, Mir could be safely released if LightDM was changed  slightly to decide whether or not to launch Mir based on a  lightdm.conf (new) parameter (switch).  By default, it  should probably be off.19:32
OvenWerksAck! my mouse is being bad sorry for the noise.19:52
lderanknome, http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=UPtAVFg1 this now produces this http://lderan.co.uk/welcome.png :P20:05
lderanand its now on my lp branch20:11
Unit193grep VERSION= /etc/os-release  is more "pretty"20:12
lderanpython doesn't have the ability to grep things as far as I know, would have to scan the file manually20:15
lderandistro, version, release = platform.linux_distribution() isn't too bad :P20:18
Unit193lderan: Sure, it's the way to get the output so you can see it, also just my opinion. :P20:18
knomelderan, ahh... instead of "raring", i thought the interesting string would have been "Raring Ringtail"20:21
lderancan get it from the /etc/os-release, its just raring in /etc/lsb-release20:22
knomeyeah, that's pretty useless in user-facing stuff20:23
Unit193And the version number changes for point releases.20:23
knomeUnit193, but that's a non-problem20:25
Unit193knome: I was thinking handy, actually.20:25
knomeUnit193, at least from my POV, but sure, you could strip off the first 5 chars :P20:25
knomeupgrading system20:27
knomeand when i say that, i mean updating packages :P20:28
Unit193apt-get dist-upgrade, the best way!20:29
Unit193I have 3.10.7 in queue, maybe should reboot. ;P20:29
lderanso to be sure i get it to output the right stuff, "Raring Ringtail" & "13.04"? would "13.04, Raring Ringtail" be of any use?20:32
knomei'd just make them use separately20:33
knome*available for use20:33
lderansure thing20:34
knomei don't think we should worry about the formatting itself, people can figure that out20:34
micahgdistro  info would be the canonical way to get latest stable now20:47
Unit193`distro-info` doesn't get it from the currently running system, though.20:48
micahgcheck out the distro-info package20:48
Noskcajmicahg, Can you try and fix the indicator plugin patch? i have zero knowledge of C20:49
knomemicahg, the point *is* to get the version from the current system20:49
micahgNoskcaj: yes, was already on my list20:49
Noskcajmicahg, thanks20:49
knomemicahg, we're showing that information in the installer slideshow, so it's better not tell you lies about your system ;)20:49
ochosihey micahg 20:49
micahgknome: ah, slideshow should have a version variable (if not, that's a feature request)20:50
Noskcajknome, On the topic of the slideshow, can someone add an OEM slideshow? I made on for 13.04, but no-one merged it20:50
micahgochosi: yes, gtk-theme-config still on my list20:50
knomemicahg, it is a feature request, and we're working on right now :)20:50
knomeNoskcaj, how does one get to xubuntu oem installation?20:50
ochosimicahg: hehe20:50
Noskcajknome, select the option when you first load the installer20:51
ochosimicahg: i (also) wanted to say that i'm currently locally testing the gtk3-panel-wrapper for the indicator-plugin20:51
Noskcajso far only ubuntu has an OEM slideshow20:51
micahgknome: if it's build time, lsb_release -cs or lsb_release -rs with a build dependency on lsb-release20:51
micahgor if lsb-release is in the live env20:52
micahgochosi: ok20:52
knomemicahg, don't tell me! lderan is on it, and i think he's finding a python way to do that20:53
micahgah, yeah, there's a python way as well20:53
micahgidr offhand20:53
ochosimicahg: not sure who would take the final call but it sounded like you would be approving the delta (if it works)20:53
knomemicahg, there's an implementation that gets the version number already, just adding the codename here :)20:53
lderanyeah at the moment it just returns "raring"20:54
micahgdistro info can provide more info20:54
micahgand it has a python module20:55
knomemicahg, but if it's not installed by default in all flavors, it's no good20:55
micahgcould be part of the installer seed :)20:55
micahgit's smal20:56
micahgsmall even, under 10k20:56
knomei know, but if we can do it with whatever we have now, why bother?20:56
micahg*if* :)20:56
knomeand even if it's small, it's still more load to the ISOs, and nobody wants that20:56
knomei'm pretty sure we can.20:56
lderanthe info is in /etc/os-release, if we can access it from the installer slideshow bit20:58
Unit193It would then also show you the running system, not sure how it'd be done with distro-info, personally.  I've used that in another script, though.21:00
ochosimicahg: i've successfully installed the gtk3-panel and wrapper and indicator-plugin for gtk3, but it still tries to load gtk2 indicators, any idea where/how those are linked? (already uninstalled the two gtk2 indicator packages)21:01
ochosiyea, i guess21:06
ochosiright now i get: (wrapper-2.0:23584): Gtk-ERROR **: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected. Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported21:06
ochosiso i assumed it tries to load gtk2 indicators21:07
micahgwell, that's the whole problem withgtk2 panel, gtk3 indicators21:07
ochosiwell right, but supposedly the wrapper-2 fixes that21:08
ochosii've had gtk2 plugins in a gtk3 panel woring21:08
ochosiso i doN't think the other way round is a problem21:09
ochosianyhoo, guess i gotta sleep now, i'll try again on the weekend..21:09
Unit193Good night.21:09
lderandoesn't look like distro-info provides the current version name, can list them and tell which are lts and which is the newest tho.21:13
micahglderan: get the current the way you were and use distro info to give you it in whatever form you wat21:26
lderansounds good to me21:30
Unit193Ah, I see.21:36
bluesabredang, so much backlog22:02
Unit193bluesabre: Haaaave fun.22:02
bluesabreskellat: I would like to point out that the nouveau drivers themselves do not do vsync.  With nouveau and no xmir, I was getting 120 FPS22:02
bluesabrewith nouveau + xmir, it was 30-8022:02
bluesabrenvidia-310 or 315 = 6022:03
Unit193bluesabre: I got less than half as well, on the other lappy.22:03
bluesabrefun stuff22:03
bluesabreso definitely a performance hit for gl22:04
bluesabreknome: +1 for the display dialog, it would probably be beneficial for the sound indicator as well22:04
micahgbluesabre: do I have a new catfish to upload yet?22:04
bluesabreochosi: if you get a chance, could you check if the sound indicator works in saucy with the gtk3 panel?22:04
knomeindicators in general, if we pulled the gtk3-indicators-in-gtk2-patch22:05
bluesabremicahg: I'll have it available this weekend, been tied up like crazy lately22:05
micahgbluesabre: same here22:05
knomebluesabre, TMI22:05
bluesabremicahg: I also have mugshot available, going to do a 0.2 release this weekend, then I'll need a friendly uploader if we still want it in saucy :)22:06
micahgbluesabre: I'm guessing we're not having half the fun knome is22:06
bluesabreit seems that way :D22:06
micahgbluesabre: what is mugshot?22:06
knomemicahg, read/think sean's comment *literally*22:07
micahgknome: I know :), I just carried the reference forward22:07
bluesabremicahg: user profile pic/details app (since lightdm now supports user profile images)22:07
knomemicahg, oki, gotcha ;)22:07
bluesabrewe've had some testing across xubuntu-devel ML22:08
micahgbluesabre: any reason that can't go in Debian?22:08
bluesabreno reason, but I'll have to find a debian sponsor (I'll work on that this weekend too)22:08
micahgI can upload that with gtk-theme-config to mentors22:09
bluesabreI'll ping you about that when I get 0.2 out then :)22:10
NoskcajIf that get's sponsored in time for saucy, i will be shocked. i have 10 packages in mentors that know one has touched22:10
knomeNoskcaj, have you seeked out for mentors or just uploaded them there?22:11
Noskcajknome, I've searched for mentors, including th xfce team 22:11
Unit193Only problem I had was someone taking over an expired bug, had to work that out first.  I didn't really use mentors with the one I got through.22:12
GridCube:) im gonna test xmir i38622:16
Unit193Poor guy.22:16
* skellat is still putting the finishing touches on downgrading his netbook to 12.0422:18
GridXmir:( typing lag22:23
Unit193...Really?  What version was the iso?  `file xubuntuxmir.iso` will tell you.  That was supposed to be fixed.22:24
Unit193Also, if you use the open source drivers, can you compare the output of glxgears to it?22:24
Unit193(And pad the info?)22:24
GridXmiri tried glxgears just before, and now im installing them22:24
GridXmirit was 60fps with nvidia drivers22:25
Unit193nVidia drivers have a big advantage, yep.22:25
GridXmirhahaha it says 863fps22:25
GridXmir7578 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1515.160 FPS22:25
Unit193Lies and slander, me thinks.22:25
Unit193Mine went from 30 to 19. :D22:27
GridXmirdual monitors works worst than last time22:27
GridXmirtyping lag is gone now22:27
GridXmirsame as last time i cannot accept the TOC of the msfonts22:32
GridXmirit wont accept the enter key on OK22:32
GridXmirwell it did22:33
GridXmirlots of  tearing in html5 video in youtube, 22:37
GridXmirok what files should i fetch while in xmir?22:40
GridXmiri really want leave now this session 22:40
knomeGridXmir, aren't the instructions on Unit193's website?22:41
GridXmiryeah it says give report i dont know what to report22:41
OvenWerksUnit193: what are the possibilities of setting RL3 to xMir and leaving RL2 on X?22:42
OvenWerks(RL = run level22:43
Unit193OvenWerks: Lightdm is what's starting it, I don't see how that'd work?22:43
OvenWerksrun lightdm with two different config files?22:44
OvenWerkscan lightdm take the name of config on cl?22:44
Unit1931.  Simply remove unity-system-compositor and/or the xorg-xmir package.  2. Comment it out in the lightdm xmir config file.22:45
Unit193-c, --config=FILE                   Use configuration file22:45
OvenWerksI was thinking for testing without reboot...22:45
Unit193Ah, if you install everything, I'd *think* you can just sudo service lightdm restart, no?22:45
OvenWerksThat maight be easier22:46
OvenWerksThanks for the tip.22:46
OvenWerksIt is just that even if xMir is not default, if it is installed and can be tested easily, there is more likely to be useful bug reports22:47
Unit193OvenWerks: IMHO, it's easier to leave it uninstalled, that way all people have to do is install u-s-c and that'll pull in everything needed, don't have to enable or anything.22:52
OvenWerksUnit193: Most of the time I want a known stable system, once in a while I am willing to do some testing. I do not want to find out part way through a project how xmir doesn't work..23:21
OvenWerksin the end it will probably end up two partitions though.23:22
Unit193OvenWerks: I get that, I wasn't interested in installing saucy, then installing mir, and turns it would have been a very bad idea for me. :P23:23

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