schlopoGreetings...anyone here yet?18:44
schlopoHey Sylvie!18:49
schlopomornin' (or afternoon..or evening), Hannie18:54
hanniehey, schlopo how are you doing?18:55
cqfd93Good evening, Hannie!18:55
hanniehi everyone18:55
schlopoVery well. Good to see a few people arrive early...it means I did the UTC time conversion correctly!18:55
hannielet's hope the others are right on time :)18:55
cqfd93schlopo, you can have the Ubuntu clock display UTC time along with your local time18:57
schloposhhhh....I'm on Windows8, not Ubuntu. :)18:59
hannieYou're joking...19:00
schlopoI'm not.  I run all Ubuntu variants in a virtual machine.  Must have a Windows product for my financing software.19:00
* schlopo guesses I could do the reverse...Ubuntu as my main system and run W8 in a virtual machine.19:01
hannieDon't you use multi-boot?19:01
hannieI have Windows on one hardrive, ubuntu on another19:01
hannieWorks fine19:01
schlopoFood for thought for sure.19:02
cqfd93I'm glad I don't have windows8 ;-)19:02
hannieAs long as you do not have Windows 819:02
godbykHey, guys. Sorry I'm late.19:02
hannieWait until you buy your next computer :(19:03
cqfd93Hi Kevin!19:03
schlopoThe way software is heading, it's all going to be in the cloud soon (a la Adobe and Photoshop)....19:03
schlopo...just need a browser and that's it.19:03
hanniehi godbyk19:03
schlopoHey Kevin!19:03
cqfd93I buy computers without OS19:03
schlopo...we'll wait a few more minutes, then get started.19:03
schlopoI, personally, need to hold to the 1hr limit do to other obligations today.19:04
hannieYes, I am expecting Jim to join too19:04
CarstenGHi at all19:04
cqfd93Hi All!19:04
hanniehi CarstenG19:04
schlopoCG's in the house....good to see you.19:05
hannieschlopo, we should be finished before 20:00 UTC19:05
CarstenGhi schlopo :-)19:05
schlopo...ok, let's get going...give me a few seconds to get meetingology set up.19:06
meetingologyMeeting started Sat Aug 24 19:07:12 2013 UTC.  The chair is schlopo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.19:06
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired19:06
schlopo#chair schlopo19:07
meetingologyCurrent chairs: schlopo19:07
schlopo#meetingtopic Authors and Editions meeting #2 for Ubuntu 13.1019:07
schlopoAlright, we're live. Please announce for the purposes of minutes and attendance.19:07
hannieI'm present ;)19:08
godbykI'm here.19:08
schlopo#topic Upcoming Schedule/Due Dates19:09
schlopoLooks like September 19th, 2013 is our next due date. Any issues with this date? Concerns?19:09
hannieWell, not all chapters have authors, but we won't get any before sept 19th I guess19:10
hannieI personally am not too concerned about it19:10
hannieRaring and Saucy do not differ that much19:11
schlopothere are a few holes in the desktop chapter, but if you're not concerned, I'm not either.19:11
hannieI think we have to go through the chapters without authors to see if they need some changes19:11
schlopoI see that a column has been added to the spreadsheet indicating the status of a section from the author's perspective. Good call.19:12
hannieYes, I did that19:12
hannieI want to be able to see if an author has finished19:12
schlopoVery helpful. I'll update my sections' status (stati? statum?) by tomorrow evening.19:13
hannieAnd editors status too, but that comes later19:13
godbykhannie: Good idea. That'll work well with our new \status command.19:13
CarstenGhannie: Is it useful, to say »finished« before the feature Freeze?19:13
godbykhannie: I'll see if I can generate a list of those statuses for you this weekend.19:13
hannieCarstenG, yes, there could still be changes, but not mayor ones19:13
schlopogodbyk: assuming others have been using it (guess retrieving these statuses from the lastest rev will answer that question)19:14
hannieIt is up to the author to bring in last changes19:14
godbykschlopo: True. From watching the commits it looks like a lot of people have been updating them.19:15
godbykschlopo: But we also have the date they were updated, so we will know when they haven't been keeping up to date.19:15
schlopogodbyk: Great!19:15
schlopoAny other input/concerns regarding upcoming due dates?19:16
hannieWell, like I said before, the line between authoring and editing becomes very thin. Some proofreading and editing has been done already19:17
schlopoYea, it's going to definitely blend, especially since we've improved on our author<->editor connections this iteration.19:17
schlopoI think Kevin pulling a status report (and maybe emailing it to the list?) will be helpful in seeing who has yet to touch their section.19:18
schlopo...and also which authors-editors are way ahead of the game.19:18
hannieschlopo, has thomas stopped contributing completely, or will he continue doing wine?19:18
schlopoNot sure about thomas...19:19
schlopogot an email from him saying he wanted to drop out of authoring, but still wanted to write a Wine section?19:19
hannieOk. The wine section does not need to be changed because it has nothing to do with saucy anyway19:19
schlopoAlmost sounds like he wants to do that exclusive to the manual.19:19
godbykI think Thomas is interested in creating an entire manual just for Wine.19:20
schlopoI removed him from his assigned sections and assigned myself to them.19:20
godbykI'm not sure if he's still going to work on the Wine section in our manual or not.19:20
schlopogodbyk: I'll take a look at it.19:20
hannieyes, so I understand. But I do not know if he still maintains our wine section19:20
schlopoWine is under Advanced Topics. I'll own it.19:21
hannieok, so that is solved then19:21
schlopo#action schlopo to verify contents of Wine section with the departure of Thomas19:22
meetingologyACTION: schlopo to verify contents of Wine section with the departure of Thomas19:22
schlopo#topic Communication with authors19:22
hannieCarstenG, can we already start making screenshots?19:22
hannieschlopo, sorry, that was not on the agenda...19:23
CarstenGhannie: Well, I would not before UI freeze on 19th September19:23
schlopoNo worries... :)19:24
schlopoRe: author communication, I intend to send out communication to all authors reminding them of the upcoming due dates. Again, will be helpful to have Kevin's data pulled from section statuses.19:24
schlopoI'm going to target (with a direct email) those who've not shown any activity.19:24
godbykschlopo: I'll get that to you this weekend.19:24
schlopo...the intent being to not hit the September 19th deadline with sections undone.19:25
schlopogodbyk: thanks...19:25
schlopo#action godbyk to prove results of section statuses to Ubuntu Manual coordinators19:25
meetingologyACTION: godbyk to prove results of section statuses to Ubuntu Manual coordinators19:25
schlopo#action schlopo to communicate deadline through mailing list to all authors, and target those who've shown no activity in their sections.19:26
meetingologyACTION: schlopo to communicate deadline through mailing list to all authors, and target those who've shown no activity in their sections.19:26
schlopo#topic Open Q & A19:27
hanniethanks in advance for the list, godbyk19:27
godbykhannie: No problem. That's what the \status command is for. :)19:27
schlopoAlright...the floor's open...any issues/concerns we can tackle?19:27
hannieschlopo, do you mind if I move the email addresses from the spreadsheet to a separate sheet?19:28
hannieI already did, but I left yours where they were19:29
schlopohannie: sure.19:29
hannieAnd do we need permission to put somebody's address on the sheet?19:29
godbykI would avoid putting their addresses in the sheet since it's public.19:30
godbykIf it were restricted to fewer people, I wouldn't have a problem with it, though.19:30
hannieBut they are there already, should we remove them and publish them in a sheet that is not public?19:30
CarstenGbtw, why do we have the email addresses there? We all are at LP and on the Mailinglist.19:30
hannieSo you want me to remove them completely?19:31
schlopoCarstenG: The mailing list can get noisy.19:31
godbykCarstenG: I think they were just added there out of convenience. It makes it easy to copy and paste when you need to email a particular chapter's author or all the authors.19:32
CarstenGWell, if someone wants to contact someone else, he find the email address on LP or on the list (if that one has already written to the list)19:32
hannieCarstenG, you need to know a person's LP name19:32
hanniewhich is often a nick19:33
schlopoYea, let's just put the LP username. They can take this name to LP and find the address.  A few extra steps is all.19:33
CarstenGThis you see in the commit messages on bzr :-)19:33
godbykCarstenG: Unless you want to email someone who hasn't been committing. ;-)19:33
hannieSo we should add the LP names to the spreadsheet and remove the email addresses?19:34
CarstenGgodbyk: Yes, you are right. :-) But do we have authors, who did not yet made a bzr commit?19:34
schlopohannie: Yes19:34
CarstenGhannie: Yes, this sound better to me :-)19:34
hannieOk, I can do it if you like19:34
schlopoAre you willing to do this, hannie?19:35
godbykI think that's a good solution.19:35
godbykIt makes it more difficult for spammers to harvest the email addresses.19:35
schlopo#action hannie to remove author/editor email addresses from the shared spreadsheet and replace with LaunchPad usernames/nicks19:35
meetingologyACTION: hannie to remove author/editor email addresses from the shared spreadsheet and replace with LaunchPad usernames/nicks19:35
CarstenGbtw, can someone find the google document without having the specific link?19:36
hanniethat's a good question. I think not.19:36
hannieShare options: everone who has the link...19:37
schlopoThe link to the spreadsheet is in the NOTES section of the ubuntu-manual wiki, so, in terms of availability, it's easy to find.19:37
hannieis allowed to make changes to the spreadsheet19:37
godbykWell, I have it organized in my Ubuntu Manual folder on Google Drive.19:37
godbykBut we can also add a link to the style guide if it'd be helpful.19:38
schlopogodbyk: ...also, in the NOTES section on the ubuntu-manual wiki19:38
schlopoI've added quite a bit information to this section as I (personally) was getting tired of filtering through old emails for how-tos, style guides, installation/customization instructions, etc.19:39
hannieIs it wise to make the link public (put it on the wiki)?19:39
godbykI'm slowly trying to add all this info to the style guide so it can be the first place to check.19:39
hannieWhen we only spread it via our mailing list it will be available only to members of UMP19:40
schlopoThe way I see it, if it's emailed (in a list or not), it's public.19:40
godbykschlopo: Agreed. The mailing list has public archives.19:40
hannieThe mailing list is only for members19:40
schlopogodbyk: I DEFINITELY would like to consolidate this information...maybe make a manual for the manual ?!19:41
godbykschlopo: Yeah, that's essentially what the style guide is.19:41
CarstenGhannie: the list is for members, but the archive is public19:41
hannieah, yes, public archives. You are right.19:41
hannieWould it be better to change the spreadsheet's share options so only members can change it?19:42
schlopohannie: this doesn't solve the "privacy" concern, but it does prevent someone from going in and wiping away all the data.19:43
schlopo...but then, it turns into a management concern (adding / removing members)19:44
hannieI am more concerned about the privacy then the risk of someone deleting the contents. I have a copy on my pc19:44
schlopohannie: true19:45
CarstenGbtw, why do we have this informations on a google shreadsheet? We also can do it on the wiki, or?19:45
hannieThe wiki needs a lot of manual formatting19:45
hannieThe spreadsheet is much easier to use19:45
schlopohannie, are you planning to call an editor's meeting in the future? Is there a need to rally your base in this regard?19:46
hannieWell, I am not a meeting tiger :)19:46
godbykI'd suggest having an editors meeting closer to the authoring deadline.19:46
* schlopo isn't either19:46
godbykJust to make sure we didn't lose any editors and that they're ready to start editing.19:46
hannieIf not necessary, I will not plan one. I prefer to use our ml19:46
hannieI do send editors a pm19:47
godbykhannie: Good thinking.19:47
hannieAnd I try to keep in touch by email19:47
hannieBut like with authors, there will be chapters without editors too19:48
hanniethere are not too many gaps though. I am quite happy with the editors we have right now19:49
* schlopo notes we have 10 minutes left.19:50
hannieI want to ask authors to reduce the number of marginnotes (if you all agree, that is)19:51
* schlopo wonders if Sylvie dropped off the face of the IRC map.19:51
hannieWe have already discussed it in the past. I prefer to see text on the page itself19:51
schlopoTHANK YOU!19:51
* schlopo is excited at this suggestion (in case there be any doubt)19:52
godbykI agree with that sentiment.19:52
godbykThe margin notes should be for optional material only. Short asides.19:52
godbykThey especially shouldn't be lengthy paragraphs.19:52
schlopo...and also screenshots in the marginnotes! I think this is a bad idea.19:52
CarstenGhannie: You are right. It is also less work to move the marginnotes in the translations to the right place.19:52
hannieschlopo, shall I send an email to our ml about this?19:52
schlopomarginnotes should extend a concept...not explain a new one. Many notes I've come across are paragraphs in and of themselves.19:53
godbyk(Aside from the style issue, I usually have to finesse the position of the margin notes a bit before publication. So fewer margin notes would mean less work for me. :-))19:53
schlopogodbyk: You're welcome!19:53
CarstenGgodbyk: Yes, this point I mean :-)19:53
hannieSo we agree: the less marginnotes the better19:53
godbykAs far as screenshots in the margins... the only screenshots that should be in the margin are ones that are naturally small enough to fit there.19:53
hanniecqfd93, where are you? Hiding somewhere?19:54
schlopohannie: yes, if you'd do that, I believe the UMP world would be in harmony.19:54
godbyk(Otherwise it looks awkward to have a tiny screenshot surrounded by inches of white space.)19:54
CarstenGyes, programm icons are IMHO ok in marginnotes.19:54
cqfd93I'm here, reading :-)19:54
schlopoCarstenG: alright...I've give in on this one!19:54
schlopocqfd93: Good! :)19:54
hanniecqfd93, sorry for not asking you too about the screenshots19:54
cqfd93I just don't have much to say!19:55
hannieNo translation questions?19:55
cqfd93I agree we have to wait until the UI freeze19:55
schlopo#action hannie to send an email to the mailing list about reducing the number of margin notes and avoiding screenshots (except icons where necessary).19:55
meetingologyACTION: hannie to send an email to the mailing list about reducing the number of margin notes and avoiding screenshots (except icons where necessary).19:55
cqfd93small screenshots like menus are ok in marginnotes19:56
schlopoI think we need to start now (on a non LTS release) to whittle down the marginnotes, so that the upcoming LTS release yields a much cleaner manual.19:57
hannieDuring the final phase we will go through the whole document to see if we can minimise margin notes (chapters without author/editor)19:57
hannieIs it minimise in US and minimize in GB?19:58
schlopohannie: Yes.  With a Z in the US.19:58
schlopoCenter vs Centre19:58
schlopoUtilise vs Utilize19:58
schlopooy vey!19:58
godbykHooked on Phonics worked for us!  ;-)19:59
hannieI should stick to the agenda, I am a bit naughty19:59
godbykBtw, speaking of translations, you guys are filling up my bookshelf pretty quickly: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5067756/IMG_20130824_145634.jpg19:59
hannieWOW! That looks pretty impressive20:00
schlopoYa' know, Kevin, THAT is just a beautiful picture!20:00
schlopoA lot of volunteer person-hours represented there.20:00
CarstenGgodbyk: Very nice. :-)20:00
schlopoA true testament to a geographically diverse community coming together to accomplish a task.20:00
godbykAnd those are just from the past year. I don't have back copies of all the previous manuals.20:00
CarstenGWould be good for the website :-)20:00
schlopoCarstenG: +120:01
godbykI'll try to take a better photo without the glare of the flash sometime.20:01
CarstenGgodbyk: And did you read all the books? ;-)20:01
hannieok, and put it on the website20:01
godbykDoes anyone think it'd be worth it to move the older versions of the manual from lulu.com to createspace.com/amazon.com?20:02
godbykOr should we just leave them there?20:02
cqfd93godbyk: I don't see the French version for 12.10...20:02
godbykI haven't checked, but I doubt that many people are buying the older versions.20:02
godbykcqfd93: Yeah, I missed that one. I'll have to order it next. :-)20:02
schlopoAlright...on this VERY motivating note (thanks to our fearless leader)...are there any other issues?20:03
hannieI would not move them to createspace, except of course 12.0420:03
godbykhannie: I think all the 12.04 are on CreateSpace except for the English edition. I'll double-check.20:04
schlopoOk...so this will be the last author's meeting I'll chair. I'll punt now to hannie to coordinate any editor communication (which I, too, will join).20:05
godbykschlopo: Thanks for your help with coordinating the authors.20:05
hannieThanks for handing it over to me, schlopo ;)20:05
schlopoThanks for being here! I'll post the logs of this meeting to the wiki and tackle most (if not all) my action items by Sunday evening.20:05
schlopogodbyk: My please.20:06
schlopohannie: sure thing.20:06
schlopogodbyk: *pleasure.20:06
hanniegodbyk, +1, thanks schlopo for all you do as authors coordinator20:06
meetingologyMeeting ended Sat Aug 24 20:06:47 2013 UTC.20:06
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-08-24-19.07.moin.txt20:06
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-08-24-19.07.html20:06
schlopoBye everyone! Have a great weekend.20:07
godbykSee you later, schlopo.20:07
cqfd93Bye schlopo!20:07
hanniebye all20:08
CarstenGbye all20:08
cqfd93by all!20:08

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